My son said I didn't respect his views. Now he has COVID.

[mainer]

I suspect there are other parents on DU who are facing the same heartbreaking dilemma: children who are vaccine-hesitant and won't listen to us. My husband and I tried and tried to talk him into getting the vaccine, but he questions its safety, efficacy, etc. He bought into the whole "the vaccines are rushed" narrative. He thought that if he just stayed masked up and away from crowds, he could avoid Covid.

The last time I saw him (a month ago) I pushed it too hard. I told him that if he cared about protecting his family (he has two kids too young to be vaccinated) he would get the shots. He was so angry he didn't talk to me for weeks. Then he went to an outdoor wedding and of course had to take off his mask to eat. Five days later -- he had Covid. Now both his kids have fevers. Luckily his wife is vaccinated and has only minor break-through symptoms.

Does he regret not listening to us? No. Mostly he's still angry at us for "not respecting his views." WTF, my husband and I are MDs! But that wasn't good enough for him.

It's now almost two weeks out and thank god he will probably get through this OK. His p02s have been good. But this has driven such a wedge between us. I keep hearing that phrase 'you need to respect my view" from a lot of vaccine-hesitant people. It seems to be their mantra -- that they don't feel respected.

If there are other parents who are going through this, my deepest sympathies. We impart our best wisdom, but we can't make our kids listen.

[DickKessler]

1. I'm so sorry to hear this! I too hope he gets through this OK.

And I hope your relationship with him recovers.

[leftieNanner]

75. Kind Words

And welcome to DU.

There are many kind people here.

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. A good friend of mine was cut off by one of his children yesterday.

He has lost contact with her and his grandchildren because she is so far down the Bible-thumping/anti-vax freedumb hole. It's breaking my heart to see his broken heart.

[RKP5637]

3. How sad and so unnecessary by him, I hope everyone gets through it OK. n/t

[gratuitous]

4. Okay, put aside the vaccine talk

Instead, let's talk about your Last Will and Testament, son. Got one? How about an Advance Directive? Have you decided on any songs or musical pieces you'd like to have played at your funeral or memorial service? Anyone you want to speak at the service? I really, really want to respect your wishes and if I know ahead of time, I can better accommodate you.

There! Isn't that so much better than all this dreary talk about vaccines and respecting views?

[lagomorph777]

19. And, speaking of wills,

You're out of our will now.

[LiberalFighter]

82. Draw their attention to this and maybe.

[babylonsister]

100. I like it!

[Hortensis]

5. Sorry, Mainer. This will pass, and you'll move on to healing.

I hadn't heard "You need to respect my view" yet. Grasping at respect suggests a feeling of it being lost, definitely for the best, and no doubt he'll still have other qualities you love to respect in him.

[mainer]

11. yes he's a very intelligent guy, but with different philosophies from us

And he's very adept at defending his views. But he's also a good and loving dad.
There's so much to love in him, which is what makes this rift painful. I think a lot of it has to do with the milieu he's living in (rural and conservative) and he picks up a lot of (bad) information from people around him.

If he was just an uncle or a cousin, I could write him off. But it's hard to write off your own child.

[lagomorph777]

22. No longer gets to be called a good and loving dad; he deliberately harmed his family.

[NH Ethylene]

122. The problem is that people in this mental situation just don't see that.

If he believed his family could be harmed he'd probably get the vaccine, but people like him just don't believe it.

It's not selfish or stupid, it's brainwashed.

[lagomorph777]

126. These people choose to watch toxic TV because they like toxic TV; it appeals to their

evil nature. It doesn't just accidentally happen.

[NH Ethylene]

129. My son does not have an evil nature.

He is kind and warm-hearted.

It doesn't really help to generalize, condemn and hate. It simply solidifies the division in this country. Understanding a problem is the first step toward solving it. You don't gain understanding if you wall off anybody who won't get the vaccine and call them 'evil.'

[seta1950]

41. IMHO

I would say what a nurse said on Rachel’s show, “ you would take a bullet for your kids I’m sure, take the vaccine”

[amywalk]

51. That's such a great reply. It starts with a compliment, so it's less harsh. I'm going to use it.

[Hortensis]

42. This is hitting and breaking so many families. Our lovely DIL

has given up on her hostile, irrational daughter but accepts what she dishes to be able to see her grandchildren.

This is going really deep and wide, Seems to me "Southern charm" here in GA may have died, poisoned by the miasma of factional meanness. I assume people still lay it on each other in church groups, etc., but...just look at the faces in public these days, which you can because they're mostly unmasked. Distant, suspicious of strangers.

It's going to be terribly important for families and friends to make things good again.

[femmedem]

81. I could never write off my own child, and I know you won't either.

I don't know which is worse: the worry about his and his children's health or the worry that your relationship won't heal.

Sometimes the person who is least angry has to be the person who makes the first move and listens and listens and listens, reflecting back what the other person says and feels, regardless of who is right.

[orwell]

6. I don't need to respect...

...anyone's view. If someone tells me they think the earth is flat should I respect that?

Anyone can have a belief, but I don't have to respect it.

I don't respect anti-vaxers period. They are knowingly putting us all at risk.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

30. Anti-vaxxers live in a world of alternative facts.

It's one where they know they can't give COVID to their children and then watch them die, gasping for breath. Or where their children have to watch their father or mother dying on a ventilator. It's one where even when the biggest anti-vaxxer of them all -- TFG -- tells them that he's vaccinated and they should be too, he gets booed.

I'm sorry about your son, but most of all I'm sorry for your grandchildren. Children innocently believe their parents will protect them from all sorts of harm, and it's hard to know that trust is misplaced.

[louslobbs]

65. True, we might have to accept that's their view, but we sure as hell don't have to respect it!

n/t

[Mosby]

7. This isn't going to be a popular view.

But imo a lot of "young people" have been taught in school that their opinions are just as valid as anyone else's. Now we are seeing the result of the "self esteem" movement, and it's not pretty. Just the other day I was "debating" a topic concerning the IP conflict and a 17 yo girl told me that I should read more about the apartheid in Israel before commenting.

Another guy, a tankie, accused me of personally attacking him because I asked if he has any college education. He claimed that by accepting refugees from central America it would cauae more climate change, so it would be best if America was forced to decrease its population.

[Elessar Zappa]

9. It's the older generations that voted Trump.

Young people are not the problem in this country.

[maxsolomon]

23. They become the problem as they age

and are propagandized.

[True Blue American]

107. Yes, that is one of the problems

One good thing, my Son made sure I got the vaccine, they did too. But I hear the both sides do it. Compares the riots on the street to the Capitol insurrection.

Very angry about this second bill because he has to listen to lazy InLaws laugh about sitting at home making money, now bragging that he will get $600 a month for 2 kids.

My Grandson worked this summer making less money. This is not going down well with workers.

[Mosby]

26. Yeah, ok, but young people vote at much lower rates that 40+

So the real issue is turnout. Lowest groups are 30 and under and Hispanics.

[Mariana]

95. That's been going on for a very long time.

It's not unique to this generation of young people, that relatively few of them vote.

[LiberalFighter]

84. That is somewhat true.

With the normal rate of death it allowed fewer older people to vote for Trump in 2020.

Covid has accelerated the death rate of those people likely to vote for Trump or other idiots from all age groups.

[Moebym]

14. That second anecdote

Is a doozy. I think I lost a few IQ points just by reading it.

[Mosby]

31. He deleted his original post.

I follow him and a couple other Marxists just out of curiosity.

https://mobile.twitter.com/tiredgenerally

[Grokenstein]

44. Don't blame the "self-esteem" movement.

The problem is decades of rightwank media telling the ignorant that their input is just as relevant as that of "elitist" experts, not the idea that school-age kids should recognize that they have the right to lift their heads up and look you in the eye.

And while refugee-bashing is idiotic--and astonishingly idiotic on the subject of climate change--buzzing someone about their college education in order to dismiss their view is in fact a personal attack--far more so than recommending that one read up on a subject.

[Mosby]

47. I know that.

But twitter is a fucking cesspool in part because every person there feels entitled to whatever ignorant, uninformed opinion they come up with that day.

[greenjar_01]

117. I agree with you that self-esteem movement has something to answer for

For me, there were a number of good ideas that simply metastasized: they grew beyond where they would be good and became very negative ends in themselves.

Self-esteem
Media criticism/literacy
Critical "thinking"

All of these are good in themselves, but they can metastasize:

Self-esteem -- Overestimating one's own knowledge, or demanding respect for every passing thought
Media Criticism -- Refusal to believe anything; deep partisan divide in media consumption
Critical thinking -- Conspiracy thinking; absolute distrust of institutions

The problem, of course, is that all of these practices require prudence and judgment, a standard of reasonableness, all things that we've thrown away as "universalizing" or "hegemonic." It's a disaster.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

112. Some of them seem to think that being uneducated is a good thing.

I have a masters degree in history from Harvard. A conservative acquaintance told me that this was something to be ashamed of. He also told me that my other masters, in computer science from the Illinois Institute of Technology, was not actually shameful, but was no big deal.

He has a GED, and no formal education past that. He works at a 7-11.

[wnylib]

69. I have thought this at times, too.

It's not just "young people." There are adults now who were raised with the belief that all ideas and views are valid, in the name of self esteem. In general, It is a good concept in a pluralistic democracy. But it is also necessary for children to learn that some ideas work out better than others, that someone else's ideas or knowledge might be better than theirs in some situations. Nobody can always be right about everthing in every life circumstance. Children need to develop the ability to distinguish feelings from facts and facts from wishful thinking. They also need to realize that yielding to someone else's abilities or expertise in one area does not mean in all areas and does not diminish them as human beings.

[Mosby]

88. You expressed this much better than me.

Thank you.

I am probably spending too much time on twitter.

[wnylib]

92. I'm not on Twitter, but I do read

tweets that are posted here and follow threads from posted tweets.

[kcr]

118. Right, it's all the young people who vote for Trump

And refuse masks and vaccines. None of the olds do that

[Mosby]

119. For different reasons

Last edited Fri Aug 27, 2021, 03:45 PM - Edit history (1)

The Republicans I know who refuse the vax it's because they believe conspiracy theories or want to own the libs. The young people I know who don't want to get it it's because they don't trust the science, in other words they are relying on uniformed opinions.

This is anecdotal, but I work with around 120 fellow employees, mostly young people and a few older than me. I have talked at length with many, and have been able to convince a few to get vaxxed. The holdouts are very stubborn, and convinced that their reasoning is correct.

The store I work at has had almost a dozen cases so far, a couple were delta. One was hospitalized for a couple weeks.

[SunSeeker]

8. You're both MDs and he won't listen to your views on vaccines?!

I don't know how to reach these anti-vaxx people.

[treestar]

57. Good point, one would think

son would respect their views because of their expertise, relative to him.

[Moebym]

10. When did this vaccine/masking issue become an issue of personal views and freedoms

Rather than facts and common sense?

I think we all know the answer, but this shouldn't even have to be a question.

[Beartracks]

106. No idea. A pandemic is a COMMUNITY problem, and requires individuals to have...

... a COMMUNITY mindset to solve it.

======

[Just Jerome]

12. Our daughter as well

Second in her high school class, set to graduate college in May, has a very good tech job locked in, but just doesn’t trust the rapidity with which vax was developed!!!!! Digs in when talked to about it. All we can hope for is that the employer will mandate vaxing. She understands money.

[Niagara]

35. Welcome to DU, Just Jerome.

Sorry to about your daughter. Here's hoping that she comes to her senses soon.

[grantcart]

52. We have the same problem with one of our daughters

The premise to your daughter's objection is not factual however.

The vaccine for Covid 19 was a decade in development.

After Sars the medical community deduced that the likelihood of another Covid based pandemic was high (there are already 400 Covid viruses just in the bat community) and research was started on a general strategy that would offer the most potent vaccine to attack the next Covid pandemic. After MERs in 2012 a consortium was formed and research on the general structural weaknesses of the Covid architecture was undertaken.

The vaccines that are used are the result of a 10 year RD program summarized here:
https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/how-decade-coronavirus-research-paved-way-covid-19-vaccines

Radiolab also has an episode (about a year ago) how a critical part of the vaccines were completed in 2018 by a scientist that received almost no recognition for his work.

Putting all of that aside is the question of trials. Generally trials are done with about 50,000 people. We are now at the one billion participants in the trial. If there were systemic problems with the vaccines there would be headlines in NYT and statistical patterns, not searching for hours to find a quack on youtube who notes that someone died 12 days after the vaccine.

Obviously if you give the vaccine to hundreds of millions of people there are going to be thousands who die of natural causes in that population.

We have the same problem. Sometimes you have to recognize that kids just filter what their parents tell them.

Welcome to DU

[luvtheGWN]

97. Actually, longer than a decade.

SARS came to us in 2003 and work had even begun before that time. Remember that this virus is actually called SARS-Covid19.

So anyone who complains about the rapidity of development is talking through their hat. Their argument has absolutely no validity.

The biggest problem we face is that people who "claim" to have done their research, actually have not. The vast majority of people "researching" the internet have no idea what is actual scientific research -- peer-reviewed and valid -- and what is no more than someone's imagination run rampant.

[brush]

68. Might mention to her the development wasn't all that rapid...

as these current vaccines use research and development from earlier covid virus research done in the '00s on the Sars and Mers viruses from back then.

The developers of the Pfizer, Moderna and J&J vaccines didn't have to start from scratch, they just had to tweak their vaccines to thwart the new strain of covid that broke out in 2019, covid-19.

[Just Jerome]

71. Yup, covered that..

But thank you!

[Aristus]

13. I have a hard time "respecting the views" of anyone who doesn't respect my medical knowledge.

Or yours, for that matter, as you pointed out.

If they'd rather get their information from Buford T. Loudmouth on Redneck Radio than from qualified medical personnel, then we can't be held responsible for the clinical outcome.

[mainer]

18. Yeah, we may be medical doctors but we're just mom and dad

parents don't have the same authority as Uncle Bob at the feed store.

[Ishoutandscream2]

34. Excellent points

My wife and I have one teenager left, and just like the other two kids, we were just "stupid, out of touch parents." My two older kids, of course, quickly changed their views when they "got out there". I'm hoping the same happens with my youngest.

[Probatim]

15. I'm in the same boat with my son. And I dread your scenario.

My daughter is vaccinated. He is "waiting for evidence" the vaccine is safe.

He said we need to stay away from the topic. I love him and enjoy his presence, but this is probably not going to end well for either of is.

[lagomorph777]

16. Sadly, he doesn't deserve your respect.

You can only raise them for so long. Eventually, they become whoever they want to become; sometimes that is not a pretty sight.

My sympathies to you and to his wife and kids.

[Scrivener7]

17. They don't feel respected because THEY AREN'T RESPECTED! Because their views are moronic!

[I_UndergroundPanther]

20. We do not owe assholes

Using beliefs as an excuse to be harmful any respect.

Delusions are delusions and can't be reasoned with there is an emotional attachment to the lies that they refuse to question,and until they question it they shouldn't be respected.

They need to understand thier beliefs are dangerous beliefs. That they are shameful and hurt people .

Don't respect shitty beliefs in people without or with an impaired moral compass..

Some beliefs are unworthy of respect.

[iscooterliberally]

21. If one's views are based on logic, reason and scientific fact, they should be respected.

If one's views are based on anecdotes and Facebook posts, or some YouTube channel that hosts comedians it's really hard to respect their views. That being said, our two adult sons have yet to be vaccinated. One has already had covid and said it was no big deal for him. He had it early on so I doubt he had the delta version. He thinks he's immune now. Hopefully they'll wake up and get their shots before it's too late. I'm not an MD, but I did work on an ambulance as an EMT when I was 21. I have pushed, but they're ignoring me on this subject. We didn't fight about it though. I jokingly told them I was going to buy a vet gun and vaccinate them from afar. I tend to crack jokes when I get worried about something serious. Covid is no joke, and with freedom comes great responsibility. If only we cared more for each other.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. He's entitled to his own view, but not his own facts. . . . nt

[smirkymonkey]

48. He has unfortunately fallen prey to what Isaac Asimov refers to as the strain

of anti-intellectualism that has been winding it's way through our political and cultural life. See quote below:

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

[roamer65]

25. Be interesting to see what his viewpoint will be in 20-30 years.

By then he will probably have chronic lung issues, if he is still alive.

[FakeNoose]

27. Of course you're right, and your son KNOWS it

He's an idiot and he knows it. He owes you both an apology and he'll never give it.

[malaise]

28. One of my great nieces is listening to her ignorant boyfriend

not her parents or grandparents.
I told her that she can do what she wants but she'd better stay away from my sister (her grandma)

[hatrack]

29. Know who else didn't "respect his views"? The virus.

It doesn't "respect" anyone's views or beliefs or faith or religion or magical thinking or political leanings or net worth.

It just does virus stuff, and it's getting really good at it.

[Niagara]

32. Sounds like your son has an outside influence and is listening to RW talking points.

There's only so far that we can lead our children.



I'm wishing your son a quick and safe recovery.

[LiberalArkie]

33. I guess if he wanted to sacrifice his children and you objected, he would expect you to respect his

viewpoint.

[mainer]

40. Yeah, that's where I ticked him off.

When I said "if you really care about your kids, you'd get the shots."

I know he'd jump in front of a bullet for his kids. But get the vaccine? No.
This is what drives me crazy.

Meanwhile, my other son got his shots at the very first opportunity.

[LisaL]

55. And now he infected his kids, yet still insist he has a view point

that needs to be respected? What is there to respect?

[BoomaofBandM]

36. My daughter got her second jab yesterday. I hope your son gets better, and I hope you can all heal.

[halfulglas]

37. It has nothing to do with age, but a large segment of the population

Has been over a period of years been convinced that "trusting your gut," including things that outright conflict with the science, is more valid than scientific facts. Stating scientific facts do nothing to convince them and sometimes they double down because their feelings. Sometimes like even when proven wrong, they just change the goalposts because like in fundamentalist religions, they can't admit to themselves they are wrong. It's hurting our families, hurting our country and hurting the world.

[ancianita]

38. Sorry, mainer. I feel you. I have a daughter who thinks she can

rely on her immunity system to fight off this virus. Little does she understand the science of the long term damage it could do as she continues her roulette with a deadly virus.

[erronis]

39. I'm sure there will be lots of PhDs/research studies on what COVID does to the already addled brain

If someone who should be rational - good upbringing, healthy lifestyle, genetics, etc. - can turn into a RWNJ, then I would like to know how those personality types evolve as their long-haul COVID disease continues to affect their mental functioning.
(Sorry for the long strung-out sentence.)

Given my experience with individuals having other long-term neurological problems such as Guillain-Barre syndrome, chronic fatigue, chronic Lyme's disease; their mental attitude does not ameliorate - it gets more extreme.

I've long thought that grumpy old men (like me) probably have some underlying chronic disease. Perhaps non-XX syndrome.

[femmedem]

79. non-XX syndrome!

[mobeau69]

43. My daughter and son are anti-vax trumpets thanks to my goofball ex.

My ex was even hospitalized with Covid early on and I thought that would be a wake up call but noooooo. Not even for my ex. Strangely, her trumpet husband got the vax. I used to think it would take the death of a family member to wake them the fuck up but now I don’t even think that would make them see the light.

A large percentage of this country is fucked up in the head and there’s nothing that can be done to reverse it.

[cally]

45. So sorry about this

I have an anti masker but she did get the vaccine.

I’m about to get on a plane to care for my other adult child. She had a serious breakthrough covid infection snd is still sick after two weeks.

[jpak]

46. So sorry fellow Mainer

Hoping for the best

[BeckyDem]

49. I hope your son will be back in good health.

What an ordeal for parents!

[NoMoreRepugs]

50. Wrestling with the same dilemma w my two adult children.

My son, MBA, pretty bright guy is slowly coming around - guess he’s tired of my unrelenting push to get vaccinated, I only hope he doesn’t wait too long.

My daughter, 6 figure makeup industry exec? I had to bribe her with cash, only way to get through to her.

Some tension but nothing out of hand.

[Cairycat]

53. Thank you for this post

I'm in the same boat. My son is in the Army, maintaining and repairing medical equipment. I last talked to him two weeks ago and he talked about getting out of the army over this. So besides the worry of him getting Covid, my husband and I are worried that he's trashing his career prospects.

And you're right, you can't stop loving your own child just because they're listening to the wrong people and being stupid about this virus.

I regard this as another Trumpian evil - the setting of family members against each other.

[deurbano]

62. He gave people permission to be their worst selves.

[The Mouth]

54. There are no views that *HAVE* to be respected

there are only views that *deserve* to be respected.

No one, not a single person, is under *any* obligation to respect any of my opinions. Nor am I under any obligation to not brutally mock any lifestyle, political, or theological choice someone makes.

The only thing that should always be respected is an individual's life, liberty, and property; beyond that, anything that can't be backed up with hard, verifiable data is bullshit.

Condolences, I hope he's OK. I had it in January 2020, near as anyone can tell (all the symptoms, exactly 6 days after going to Chinatown SF ), still suffering some effects (can't run as far any more, was doing half-marathons), but got smell and taste back after a month or two. Best of luck

[RANDYWILDMAN]

56. Hope he is ok, I weep for the future

My kids are younger and we just pretty much told them the vaccine would be a good idea.
So they did it.

If my kids were older and resistant, I would be kinda pissed.

good luck

[shanti]

58. How awful for you and your son!

I totally sympathize. There's only so much you can do as the parent of adult children.

Three out of my four sons refuse the vaccine and it's driving me crazy. Two of them have children which makes it worse. We all live in CA, and they all have jobs that are high-risk. I have talked to them until I'm blue in the face, it makes no difference. I'm still working on my youngest, as he wasn't a Xtian Trumper, but the other two were. He listens to his buddies' conspiracy theory bullshit though.

Sending positive vibes for the health of your son and his family.

[mainer]

63. Thank you. It's sad that I have so much company.

Even on DU, with all of us in touch with the facts, we still have to deal with this in our families.

[NH Ethylene]

124. I am surprised there are so many of us here on this thread.

I'm glad you posted. It makes me feel like I am not alone.

[Evolve Dammit]

59. Best wishes for you all. Hopefully he will come around after he's recovered. If not, not sure what

you could do. Both MD's, he knows you're knowledgeable and care. He's getting the readily available "alternative facts." It's literally killing us.

[Hekate]

60. The politicization of a disease is splitting families, including mine. I'm so very sorry, Mainer...

I put my iPad down for a few minutes to pick up the newspaper, and the advice column next to the comics had yet another letter about this issue, this time from someone whose formerly-reasonable parents in their 80s got sucked into FB conspiracies.

It made me weep.

Hang in there. We shall live to see better days. I have to believe that.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

61. you as a parent need to keep loving him

but his views don't rate being respected.

[Botany]

64. So sorry you are going through this.

Putin by installing Trump was successful beyond his wildest dream in trying to cause divisions
in America.

[Downtown Hound]

66. I'll give you the PG-13 version of what I say to people

Who try that, "Respect my views," line. I don't necessarily recommend this to people who are trying to salvage relationships, because it tends to have the opposite effect, and when I use this, it tends to be more r-rated, but it goes something like this,

"Where is it written that I need to respect your bullshit opinion? Your opinion is stupid, ignorant, fear-based, and founded in junk science. It's also selfish. It's saying I value my irrational fears more than the ability of the whole planet to be free of a pandemic that has killed millions. Why should I respect your opinion? You're opinion sucks, and I'm required to give it no more respect than I would to people who believe the Earth is flat.

Now, don't conflate that with the notion the I don't respect your right to have an opinion. I'm not the thought police, and I don't want to be. So don't start whining about how you can't have an opinion and you're being censored, because you're not. You're being given an honest assessment of you're opinion, and that is that it's stupid and selfish. If not not grown up enough to hear that, that's your problem."

[overleft]

67. My wife and I are in a similar situation with our daughter.

I wish she would listen for the sake of our grandson, but she has stopped calling us.Our grandson is fifteen and eligible for the vaccine but she refuses and gives every ridiculous reason for not getting innoculated.

[pnwmom]

70. I feel for you. I also had a son who was reluctant.

Fortunately, a female friend talked him into it. She had more influence on him than we could.

[leighbythesea2]

72. Sorry mainer

That must be so difficult. And yes, this thread attests to how many have direct family doing the same. I hope your son recovers well.
My sisters husband refuses & is mad about mask wearing too. They have kids. She has MS. Slowly she is coming around & i think she will get vaccinated. I just hope it's very soon.
A good friend is an ER nurse, and her husband is resistant. It makes her crazy. It's a taboo topic now from her side bc she just can't go face it all day at work, then, exhausted, come home and discuss something so illogical.
Feel like its just fallen along political lines, and once there, became entrenched. End of story. Can't even try to apply statistics and logic.

[Dan]

73. Well, he is an adult and he is entitled to his views, even those you disagree with.

But, because he has such ‘different views, given that both of you are MDs’ maybe you should change your estate planning or Will to give the part of the estate that you would normally give to your son, give it to your grandchildren with the stipulation that it reside in trust until they are of the age of majority.

I say this, because with such a gullible son - he might inherit and choose to invest in extracting gold from the ocean.

[Donkees]

74. ''Science Is Not Just a Matter of Opinion''

Facts are objectively verifiable, whereas beliefs derive from subjective conviction or faith. Facts may need to be revised as new data contradict or revise the findings on which they are based, but the process allows for self-correction and ever-closer approximations to truth. Beliefs are often personal, arbitrary, and held with an emotional intensity that resists openness to factual truth and self-correction.

... Everyone is entitled to an opinion on subjects not amenable to objective inquiry or whenever scientific facts are still equivocal and subject to alternative interpretations.

This caveat covers a lot of territory and always will. The universe is big and bewildering, definite answers will probably always elude us on some of the most fundamental questions. But scientific facts are facts and you shouldn't be able to ignore the truth once it is well established, especially if your idiosyncratic beliefs hurt not just yourself but also your fellow citizens.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201612/science-is-not-just-matter-opinion

[GumboYaYa]

76. if someone has views that are patently wrong they deserve no respect.

I hope he gets well but his views deserve to be mocked and belittled not respected.

[moonscape]

77. It's not only conservative influences. A friend's

son who lives in the DC area, works for HUD, has 3 Masters degrees (one of them abroad), very liberal, was in the Peace Corps some years back, very bright - left for Dominican Republic last weekend on vacation with his wife and is not vaccinated! Neither of them are.

He’s very close with his mom and she can’t explain why he’s not vaxxed but after expressing her opinion once she let it go. She’s scared for them but feels powerless to influence on this issue and doesn’t want to create tension over it.

What a conundrum. I would have taken your path because I wouldn’t have been able to help myself. Very sorry you and he are going through this and hope the interpersonal waters calm soon.

[DownriverDem]

78. Sad

I hope it works out for you all.

[onecaliberal]

80. My daughter and son in law. My grandchildren will not be allowed to get it either. They don't have

the normal vaccines. It has driven a mac truck size web against wedge between us.

[LiberalFighter]

83. You don't respect his views?

So it only applies to his views? While as you say both you and your spouse are MDs? Wow!

He doesn't have a leg to stand on with his views.

[thucythucy]

113. That was my thought as well. It works both ways:

how come his views have to be respected, but the views of his parents--backed up presumably by decades of medical education--can be completely disregarded?

[calimary]

85. I'm tired of hearing how WE who are striving and struggling to do it right

are just given such shit! And WE are the ones who have to respect THEIR cock-eyed wrong-headed lie-based and completely BULLSHIT views? Okay, if they want to establish this as some iron-Vlad rule, then that’s a door that swings both ways. It then means THEY are EQUALLY obligated to respect OUR views.

When they present that courtesy to me, they’ll get a corresponding courtesy from me in return. This ISN’T and NEVER shall be restricted to one side only. I used to tell my kids “if you act like a jerk, you’re gonna get treated like a jerk.” And guess what? They seem to have taken that to heart, because with mercifully few exceptions (thank you, God!), they haven’t acted like jerks.

[mountain grammy]

86. I am so sorry

but glad he'll recover and the grandkids are ok.. I never thought I'd see this happen. Goddam trump, may he rot.

[spanone]

87. It's hard to 'respect his view' when it's not only wrong in every sense, but it can be fatal.

I hope you can heal as a family.

So sad.

[myccrider]

89. Does he respect the views of flat earthers?...

moon landing hoax believers? 9/11 as an inside job believers? any of the other conspiracy theory believers?

He fell for a scam. He may never be able to face it. Part of his current anger may be because he does know he was wrong. I sincerely hope there’s no long-lasting repercussions for him or his kids.

I have no special tricks for unconvincing people who have fooled themselves like this. I have family that have fallen for this bs, too. I’m sorry for your distress.

[Xipe Totec]

90. My wife shudders when she hears me say: I respect your decision

It's like oh, oh... Maybe I better think it through again.



Like the time, when she was newly arrived in Boston, and against my advice, she decided she would wear high heeled shoes for a walk around Boston's cobbled streets and insisted that I should respect her decision.

[Dukkha]

91. I'll never "respect" anybody's right to be wrong

Or in this case their selfish stubborn refusal to stop being a public health risk.

[Wild blueberry]

93. Sympathy for all of you

Guessing he got so angry because he knows his kids are in danger, as you said. Breaking through denial is one of the hardest things a human being can do.
All the best.

[Spider Jerusalem]

94. You son is a dipshit. Hope this is a learning experience for him. (n/t)

[2abigbman]

96. My son is a COVIDIOT

I feel your pain. My 22 African American Son is in vax denial. He does mask for work. I have given up and hopefully I will not have to bury him.

[Grasswire2]

98. My son is caught up in this "clean eating" fad and refuses the vaccine because of it.

He's too smart for this, but the siren call of this diet disorder called Clean Eating is strong.

Only "pure" things are allowed in the body. Now vegan, and fanatical about sourcing foods.

He is a U.S. Army Quartermaster Cooking School graduate who then went on to be exec chef at New England inns and even cheffed at the Ritz Carlton Boston.

It's all very sad.

[boston bean]

99. I have been told something very similar by someone close to me but it was more like this

You have to respect that these are my feelings... At the very least respect my feelings.

Well, if your feelings are horseshit how am I suppose to respect that. If they are based upon lies, how am I to respect that.

You can feel any way you want, but you can't then demand that I can't have my own feelings.. my feelings are your feelings on this matter are a bunch of BS.

[Cassidy]

101. "Vaccines are the victim of their own success."

This was the first point that my virology Professor made over a decade ago when he was discussing the anti-vaxxer movement in class.

Why do so many people have such a hard time believing the lived reality of others? Apparently, it will take more than the 4.5 million deaths world wide and as many or more left with long Covid symptoms for years? decades? life? in order for enough Americans to understand that viruses don't care what you do or don't eat; they don't care much how healthy you are; they don't care if you have young kids. Your presumed moral superiority or belief in an omnipresent being will not protect you. The vaccine is your best hope for protection.

On an NPR interview with an epidemiologist a few days ago, he said that he expects Covid to be a seasonal virus, like the flu. Prepare yourself to wear masks for years, folks. So, this will likely be an on-going struggle. Exactly whose lives are being diminished by the behavior of others?

My husband's son lives 2 hours away and has been vaccine resistant. He needed to travel to our area for work. Much as we wanted to see him and help, we told him he could not come here until he got the vaccination. He stayed at a hotel and we didn't see him.

He will be moving back to this area in a few months and has decided to get the vaccination, in part so that he can stay with us while apartment hunting. What a weight that removed from our hearts.

[ShazzieB]

102. Some "views" do not deserve respect.

That's just the god's honest truth. Where the hell did this b.s. come from that all "views" are equally valid? That's a rhetorical question, but come the fuck on.

I can in theory "respect" another person's right to have a differing view, but what that view is based on MATTERS. If there is a sound factual basis for it, I will respect it, inasmuch as I respect sound facts. If it's just a personal opinion, based on someone's personal biases or some knee-jerk emotional reaction that is unsupported by facts, I am under absolutely no obligation to accord it a full measure of respect.

And when lives are at stake, as with covid, facts are the gold standard. I completely reject the idea that a view that is contrary to scientifically established facts is deserving of respect.

I can be respectful of a fellow human being and their right to held whatever view they like without respecting any views that are non fact‐-based and contrary to science. If someone with such non fact-based views is insulted or threatened by my reaction to those views, I would suggest that they step back and ask themselves why they are so defensive.

All of that is admittedly easy for me to say, since I don't have any maskholes or antivaxxers among my nearest and dearest, and my heart aches for those who do. But when I hear of a person being extremely angry about their "views" not being "respected," I can't help but wonder where all that defensiveness is coming from and question whether they are really as confident in those "views" as they claim.

[Jetheels]

103. If I happen to fall into one of these discussions,

I’m pretty quick to realize if I stay in it any longer it’s quicksand. And I do a 180. I’m honestly afraid to know what nonsense people believe in so I choose to move on to less charged topics.
But i did slip once and yelled at a friend on the phone to get fucking vaxxed.
It must be much more difficult when it is one of your own. Good luck.

[Ferrets are Cool]

104. This doesn't help one bit, but you are not alone.

[catchnrelease]

105. In the same boat here

My 50yr old daughter, her husband and 3 kids (18-23yrs) are all unvaxxed. I worry about it all the time. Daughter falls into the 'it's too new, too fast, experimental, etc' group, which makes me crazy because she was trained as a veterinary technician and knows about how viruses, vaccines etc work. We only briefly discussed this when the vaccine first came out and she is hard headed, so I know arguing is useless. I've let it go except I recently asked again if they are still a 'vax-free zone'. She just said 'Yes we still are'. Her husband is the sweetest guy but also determined that no one is going to tell him he needs to do this.

I had to laugh recently as s-i-l posted on his facebook page a meme with a guy saying 'I won't be part of a government experiment!' and someone that I assume is his friend replied 'You are the control group!' He didn't respond but I wished that it might have made even a little impression on him. The virus doesn't care if you want to opt out of protecting yourself/family, you are part of the eligible population just waiting for the virus to find you.

So now if I go through their town on my way to visit other family, I just stay in a motel and make a quick visit to their home. And hope that something will get through to them before any of them get sick or worse.

[Earth-shine]

108. He'd rather be "right" than "correct" and to have respect is important to him.

He's angry because, deep down inside, he knows how wrong he is, that he infected his kids, and that he is not worthy of the respect he craves.

[róisín_dubh]

109. Ugh I'm sorry.

My sister refuses to get vaccinated. Her boyfriend does as well. My sister has FOUR CHILDREN UNDER 13 and I'm terrified she's going to become one of those news stories. My 13 year old niece isn't vaccinated. Oh and my sister smokes about 1.5 packs a day and has for almost 30 years.
When I asked her about this a couple weeks ago, she said she didn't know what was in the vaccine and that's why she refused to get it. She said she also didn't see the point, given that I was fully vaccinated and got COVID. I tried explaining that it was an extremely mild case- like a crappy run of allergies- and that at no point was I in danger. But she doesn't listen.

[LisaL]

123. The ultimate irony-woman who smokes 1.5 packs a day is concerned

about what's in the vaccine. Does she realize how dangerous smoking is?

[haele]

127. Not only that, Cigarette manufactures put all sorts of stuff in their products

That aren't approved by the FDA and/or are known carcinogens, and they don't have to tell the consumer what is in them when they sell them. Just put the warning label on the box, who cares if there's formaldehyde, fiberglass, mercury, or arsenic -or how much- in each ciggie.
But they choose to smoke, so it's okay they don't know what's on it. Someone is making money the American Way, so it's all good.
They are afraid of government overreach, but not corporate overreach. I get it. One might put you in jail or help someone you don't approve of in the name of some public good. You feel guilty!
The other might ravage your community and give you and your kids massive, expensive health issues just to make an extra couple thousand bucks this quarter, and lie to you about it to keep you coming back for more - but that's okay, because you feel good after you take their poison.

That's how people who fall into conspiracy theories think - they're motivated by comfort and acceptance in their group. Thinking is uncomfortable and if they can avoid it, they will.

Haele

[OldBaldy1701E]

110. With all due respect to you and yours

This pandemic is not a 'view'... it is reality. Just as it is reality to either utilize science to defeat it, or do nothing and pretend it is not there. Which one seems logical and which one seems idiotic? A person's views are not the issue here. The safety and health of the nation and the world is at stake. In our reality, if I were to stand in front of a train and tell others that I was not going to move because the train is not really dangerous and plenty of people get hit by trains and survive just fine and you should respect my position on this, I would be tackled and hauled away to a rubber room regardless of my 'views'. Why this is not happening to those who refuse to accept reality is more than alarming.

[Boomerproud]

111. Tragically common sense and "for the common good"

have gone bye bye.😥

[OldBaldy1701E]

125. Ain't that the truth!

I always love listening to rethugs saying the Preamble. They bellow the first part: WE THE PEOPLE! Then, they go on: In order to form a more perfect union. Establish justice! insure domestic tranquility! Provide for the common defense! And, here is where they seem to lose their force and volume, if not actively rushing past the most important phrase in the whole thing: promote the general welfare. That is because they could care less about that. They promote their own welfare, not anyone else's. These days, 'the common good' is just a phrase that rich people use to sound empathic.

[zanana1]

114. The only thing that will get them vaccinated is mandates.

They can call it tyranny or despotism all they want. We have to wipe out this virus before it morphs into a virus that vaccines can't prevent.
It's fine that some businesses are requiring vaccines, but that's not enough. The government has to step up and declare an exception to their "right to choose". After all, Texas is just about wiping out a womans's right to choose.
We're coddling these people.

[Wingus Dingus]

115. Some people (incredibly, to me) just do not care about catching it.

They don't understand why everyone else thinks it's a big deal. All the deaths, all the news stories about crowded hospitals, all the sad tales of people who wish they had gotten the vaccine--none of it makes a dent in their thinking. They are just certain they'll be fine, and if they're not? Oh well. My brother is this way--massively irresponsible because he is still raising kids, but everyone has given up on nagging him because it just creates hostility.

[AmBlue]

116. The problem. is...

"Respecting HIS views" can kill someone. Namely, in this instance, your grandchildren. Do we respect peoples' "views" that seatbelts are too constraining? That stopping at traffic lights is a waste of time?

Really, the audacity is stunning. You have my sympathies.

In our instance, we were lucky. My youngest did the right thing as soon as 20yos were cleared for the vaccine. My eldest is vaccine-hesitant and still lives with us while finishing college. We gave him a clear choice: to continue living here you must be vaccinated. Not negotiable. So he got vaccinated.

No one should have the right to willfully endanger others. It baffles me why they are willing to take the risk when this vaccine has been so widely vetted and is now approved by FDA.

[Baitball Blogger]

120. You know who else doesn't respect his views? Covid. That's who.

[NH Ethylene]

121. I also have an adult son who won't get the vaccine.

I don't try to talk him into it, even though he is at high risk. He is too far down the rabbit hole and nothing will change that. In fact, he tried to talk me OUT of getting the vaccine. I felt badly for him; he was so worried that the vaccine would hurt me.

I don't respect his views, by any means. But I do respect his right to hold opposing views, no matter how ludicrous, so we've maintained our relationship.

I hope your son recovers completely.