Why are we so "dead-set" on re-opening all the schools?

[DemocraticPatriot]

Yes, things looked better a few months ago, and everyone was looking forward to "getting back to normal"... but the situation has changed radically-- with the super-infectious Delta variant running wild, and the vaccination program stalled (due to the refuse-niks).


In many areas of the country, this would seem to call for a change in the plan... Of course, the worst of the worst are ruled by what can only be described as "pro-covid Republican" governors, who seem intent on getting as many children AND adults infected as possible, but what about the rest?

All we have going for us if that something more than 50% of us have been vaccinated, but that is no longer as effective against this Delta variant-- and the children under 12 are not vaccinated at all, yet we are forcing them to congregate in confined indoor spaces again, with or without masks, whose effectiveness has always been limited anyway...

Back when this started, most (if not all?) of the schools were closed down very quickly, when the virus had only just begun to spread. Yet now, when there are many more active cases, hospitalizations, and over 600k deaths and climbing--- NOW we are forcing the children back into in-person covid factories? And many who get infected will bring the virus home to infect their unvaccinated (and some who have been vaccinated) parents...

Personally, I think it ought to be clear to most that this rush to re-open all the schools was a mistake. I thought it was a bad idea as soon as the Delta variant surfaced, and had my doubts about it before that. The pandemic was clearly not "over", although the situation did appear more hopeful (briefly) than it does now...

When you think about it, it seems clear to me that the "majority" who believe in science and masks and social distancing and vaccinations, have been "pushed" by the mask protesters and the anti-vaxxers and the politicians who were more worried about profits for their business backers than they were about public health-- into a pre-mature relaxation of precautions and a pre-mature full re-opening of schools as well as everything else. Even my own Governor Whitmer of Michigan, who mandated such strict protocols in the beginning of the pandemic, has declined to mandate masks for schools this fall.

(We are in better shape in Michigan vs. covid than many areas of the country, and I give full credit for that to our governor... but the cases are beginning to rise again, and it seems only a matter of time before things get bad again, with Delta even infecting a good number of vaccinated people who can then pass it on to others...Schools operating in-person with students under 12 unable to be vaccinated thus far, will only make the situation worse.)


I think that many schools are going to be forced to close down again, whether they like it or not, before this is over... and it seems to be FAR from over.

[GPV]

1. Teachers go back tomorrow in my part of Maine. I'll be curious to see how we're all feeling,

but for myself I see many remote days ahead.

[Klaralven]

2. Mainly so women can go back into the workforce

Schools are the main source of child care during most of the year.

[NurseJackie]

3. Yep.

[Luciferous]

8. I think that's a significant factor. Our district

sent out a survey for K-6th grade about virtual learning and only 4% of the parents wanted a virtual option. Those of us with kids in middle or high school weren't even asked and they aren't requiring masks except on the bus. They do the majority of their work on their Chromebooks at school anyway so I don't see why they couldn't offer virtual options

[irisblue]

27. this is true

"Mainly so women can go back into the workforce

Schools are the main source of child care during most of the year."

Blue collar workers can't work if tbe kiddos aren't in school.

[MiHale]

4. This is going to be an unfortunate reality...

Until the first wave of children start dying in droves will nothing be done to any school.

Nothing gets done except “thoughts and prayers” when they are slaughtered by automatic weapons why is this going to be any different?

Will there be a miles long procession of little white caskets or mass graves on the school playground?

[Johnny2X2X]

25. The Cons won't care if children die

Unless if it's their own of course.

We don't yet know how much more deadly the Delta variant is, some of these school districts are huge, the numbers are going to add up. Even if it's still a very low mortality rate for children, with most children probably going to get it, there could still be large districts with a number of deaths of children. Imagine a district where 30 kids die from Covid? That's very possible.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

5. Because god forbid "the economy" takes a break. American capitalism doesn't work without free

schools.

[no_hypocrisy]

6. 1. The illusion of normalcy

2. Kids in school means parents at work
3. Kids to serve as virus spreaders

[Freddie]

7. Because for many kids, virtual school is a disaster

Like my granddaughter with ADHD. She does fine in school but needs the structure of a classroom to learn. The idiots on our school board decided masks are “optional” but she’s wearing one.

[Scrivener7]

10. I get that some kids have difficulty, but that needs to be weighed against possible death.

Kids' educations can be extended for a year if needed. Dead kids can't be brought back to life.

[Amishman]

13. For young children, the missed social interactions risks developmental problems

Humans are social animals, kids need to play with other kids for their development.

my wife and I have talked about this a lot, and our boys will be attending school in person if we have the option (with masks of course).

In our opinion, the risk of serious illness is outweighed by the gains in their happiness and social development.

It's not a good choice to make, it's a matter of choosing the less undesirable option.

[Scrivener7]

16. Up until recently, most kids never set foot in a school till kindergarten, and many till first grade

At very young ages, my 20 years of studying child neural development has shown me that in the USA, our curricula for pre-schools and kindergartens, and up to about second grade, actually work AGAINST what we know about child development.

We try to give kids academics from way before their brains are ready. And we skip over many of the skills that should be being learned in those years, and that make academics easier later. Many of THOSE skills are better learned without the kind of structure we are giving them in schools.

I would agree with you about the need for these years in school if we were more along the lines of the Finland model, which uses what we know about brain development. But OUR model really is diametrically opposed to what we know about brain development.

[Tink41]

30. I'm not disagreeing

But for myself and others like me (Aspergers) school was a nightmare. I have no fond memories of school. NONE!!! During the lockdown last year I've never been more at peace. I've seen this debate on community FB pages and glad I'm an empty nester with no need to make that decision, not easy!

[frazzled]

9. Because education is critical

Virtual education, especially for the youngest students (K-6) but even for older, is far from ideal, not to mention serious inequalities in student access to reliable internet, stressors on working parents and to families with multiple students, and lack of socialization and group skills. A lot of kids just tuned out 2/3 of the way though the year.

Most American students lost an entire year of rigorous schooling. To expose a generation of American kids to two years of no in-person schooling could have long-lasting, devastating effects on the nation. It hits working class and poor families most seriously.

Risk assessment is always at play: assessing the damages to physical health versus damage to educational health is a big, big question.

[Scrivener7]

11. The worst case scenario of a lost year or two of "rigorous education" would be to add a

year or two of rigorous education.

The worst case scenario of crowding kids in school is death.

The point is mostly moot. The virus will cause schools that do not take precautions to go remote within weeks anyway, though it will be because of intolerable levels of sickness and death.

I just feel bad for the kids and teachers who perish while those levels if sickness and death are still considered tolerable.

[frazzled]

17. Again, analysis suggests otherwise

While child Covid cases have been rising, the mortality rate is extremely small. According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, as of an August 5 study released this year:

Mortality (44 states, NYC, PR and GU reported)*

Among states reporting, children were 0.00%-0.22% of all COVID-19 deaths, and 7 states reported zero child deaths
​In states reporting, 0.00%-0.03% of all child COVID-19 cases resulted in death

https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/

What does this mean? Currently, at most 0.03% of child cases result in death. Compare this to 100% of children losing an education. That may sound like a cruel analysis for the 0.00-0.03%, but think of the mental health, economic, and educational issues facing the 99.97% of children.

Of course, returning to school should not occur without proper prevention techniques in place: masking, social distancing as much as possible, sanitizing, air quality measures, and vaccination for as many students as are currently eligible. I realize that some statesare refusing mask mandates, but many districts in those states are disobeying those directives. It's a risk, for sure ... but so is the risk of losing a generation of kids to lost education, lost wages later in life, mental health problems, etc. There are risks we must assume, and risks we should never take.

In my own family, my first-grade granddaughter, a very bright child who reads extensively and has highly educated parents, started out the virtual year with few problems ... but as the year progressed she started to refuse to "go to school" at all, or do any of the work. Her behavior changed to being somewhat belligerent, and she began to say she didn't want to go back to school ever. Her parents at the beginning of the summer decided that home-schooling might be best, but recently relented and she will start 2nd grade next week. It's scary, but suddenly she is extremely excited to go back to "real" school. Hopefully, child vaccines will be available later this fall. Think of how much more dire the situation might be for low-wage parents of young children who work two jobs, spotty internet access, no school food program, no social services, and no ability to provide enrichment activities at home.

[Scrivener7]

19. That doesn't take Delta into account. Nor does it take the risk to those who live with the children

into account.

And, as said above, a year of "lost" schooling is easily made up. The mental health, economic and educational issues boil down to the necessity of attending school for an extra year or two. Horrors.

And as for mental health issues, what happens to their mental health when they bring the virus home and mom or dad or grandma or grandpa dies of it?

[frazzled]

24. The Delta has been here for several months

This report is from August. I am not saying that it is not a horrible decision to make: there are dire consequences for keeping schools open, and keeping schools closed.

[Scrivener7]

26. The big ramp-up from Delta was in June. Kids were already out of school. This doesn't

take Delta into account.

[Dorian Gray]

42. Of course it takes delta into account

I think it's ridiculous to think it doesn't.

Schools are opening because schools are important to families, to children, to the staff.

Working remotely was harder for many of the teachers.

I know loads of people who are happy to be back in person.

This whole conversation is so defeatist and annoying.

Schools should be open with proper health mitigation factors to ensure safety. Many were open all last year around the world. Wear masks. Take precautions. My child was in person the whole of last year with those things and there was NO community spread. Now all the staff is mandated to be vaccinated... and the kids who are old enough encouraged. Why WOULDN'T we want to be in person.

If she catches covid, the reality is that I am vaccinated and will most likely be fine. She's young enough and statostically at less risk than I am vaccinated. At some point we need to run a risk analysis and do what is mentally healthy for everyone.

[Scrivener7]

43. Well... the important thing here is that you are not annoyed.

And no. It doesn't take Delta into account.

[sprinkleeninow]

51. ...

[Dorian Gray]

53. Thank you

But I am annoyed. Because I think it's truly an equity issue that a lot of people on this thread are overlooking. Also, schools are opening. Some of them are creating dangerous environments because the people in those communities don't care. But many are doing a LOT of work to make them safe places for the people who work there, and it is foolish to want all schools shut for the year.

I don't normally argue about most topics this vehemently on this site, but I feel passionately that people who don't want schools to open in person (With mitigation) are on the wrong side of this argument.

[Scrivener7]

56. Sorry, but you are the one ignoring equity.

Yes of course it will be better with mitigation. Most places don't have effective mitigation.

And it still doesn't take Delta into account.

I retired last year from a school system where 68 adults died. With the first variant that was fractionally as deadly. And Delta is hitting kids.

I won't argue with you any further. I don't need to. In a month, it will be clear.

[Dorian Gray]

58. I work with

low income kids who have learning disabilities (dyslexia, adhd, etc) and the last year of remote was an unmitigated disaster. It absolutely is an equity issue. And our kids are suffering many other issues as a result of the last year. Depression, increase in Diabetes, etc. Children from lower income neighborhoods are disproportionately affected when schools go remote. 100%.

I am an educator. My husband is a high school teacher. My child is in school in person. I will be working with children in person myself, and I am happy to do it. I am vaccinated. All adults/staff in every single one of our schools are mandated to be vaccinated. And returning to remote is not something any of us relish.

In NYC, it won't be an option, anyhow. I think we should be encouraging individual schools to put money into mitigation. It is the answer, and if you see what numbers are doing in LA and SF it's obvious that proper mitigation will make schools safer. I am not supportive of how desantis is approaching things in florida. I don't say open without masking and proper ventilation and testing. We need all those tools to make it safe.

I know you said you were done arguing with me, but i think this is an important point for people to see and consider, so I'm responding anyhow.

[Ms. Toad]

49. Last year Delta was not around.

Delta is as contagious as the chicken pox, and possibly measles.

Death is not the only negative outcome from Delta. As many as 1/3 have long COVID, neurological impairment or psychiatric impairments. Many of the collection of disorders they are seeing post-COVID are chronic, not short-term.

[Dorian Gray]

54. I know Mrs. Toad

It wasn't around last year.

Have you been following the numbers in San Francisco and Los Angeles? They've gone down the last couple of weeks, and schools opened two weeks ago.

Schools (with proper mitigation efforts) are not drivers of spread. If everyone masks, there is good ventilation with air circulation,and there is proper testing in the community... it helps prevent spread. Also, the american Pediatrics association and a whole slew of doctors and scientists believe opening schools is very important to the mental well being and emotional health.

Kids in wealthier communities can afford at home tutors to help guide remote learning. People in lower income communities can not. They've fallen off the grid. I have friends who are public school teachers who have watched their students check out and disappear from their class rolls.

We can do this safely and we have to try.

[Ms. Toad]

55. The problem is that schools, by and large are not opening safely.

So suggesting that we can, and must, is worse than the CDC blunder suggesting that vaccinated people can go about their business as usual, when - had it given10 seconds of thought it would have been obvious that it's message would be read as freedom for all.

Advocating for something it is not realistic to achieve is irresponsible, when failing to achieve those safety standards furthers the pandemic and will leave the very populations you want to help in worse mental and physical shape than they are in now. The presumption should be that our schools will remain closed unless a school system implements a plan that meets standards that will keep students and the communities safe, rather than pushing for opening when executive orders, laws, and community pressure make it impossible to do so safely.

While your point about the disparity between what poor families v rich families can do for their children is accurate, the reality is that many of those poor families are in communities fighting hardest against the steps that will keep them safe, in communities in which opening the schools resulted in thousands quarantined, and children's hospitals with no beds left. Killing these poorer students off, or leaving a third of them with chronic neurological or physical impairment, will make them less equal, rather than more.

[Dorian Gray]

59. The reality is

that private schools are achieving these things, and wealthy kids are going to school, will continue to go to school, and will not suffer the same way that kids from lower income families will suffer.

Children from families who do not have the means to make a successful year out of remote deserve the same resources our wealthiest families deserve. They deserve people advocating for them to get the safety measures that wealthier kids are receiving. And they deserve to learn in person.

NYC public schools attempted and succeeded at a safe year last year. It'll be different and we need to be flexible, but we owe it to kids to try to make this work, because going on a third year of interrupted education is not a realistic option for our learners.

You're an extraordinarily empathetic person and obviously want people to be safe. So do I. Vaccine mandates in the public schools (all staff in NYC must be vaccinated) is the start of that. Mask mandates too. And proper ventilation.

I know a lot of other regions are not doing what is right by their school children and communities, and it breaks my heart. If I lived in Alabama in a mask optional school, I probably would not send my child to school (even if vaccinated) because of the dangers. But I also feel like a one size answer doesn't work across the country, and there are places in the Northeast, especially, where schools being opened isn't as dangerous.

These threads always trigger me because we've been working really hard to make sure the schools we work at are up to snuff and will be as safe as possible for our children and staff. And I know too many kids who have suffered from not being in person last year, even though here in NYC they were given a choice. And I know how difficult it is for children and families to not have the option of a safe in person school day.

[Ms. Toad]

61. Safety has to come before education.

A lot of things about this pandemic (and everything else in the world) advantage rich over poor.

I'm not arguing that it can't be made safe. I've been teaching in person for more than a year. This year is different - and requires more rigid compliance with masking - preferably coupled with vaccine mandates.

BUT the emphasis has to be on safety. If a school cannot be made safe because it is in a state which imposes a no-mask rule on schools, it should not open. If a school cannot be made safe because the school board refuses to require masks, the school should not be open.

The current focus is misplaced, since it is on open at all costs focus, and tear down as many safety rules as can be torn down.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter how well educated you are if you are dead, or have diminished capacity becasue you are one of the 1/3 of COVID cases which create long-term neurologic, emotional, or physical damage.

[Mad_Machine76]

20. Mortality rates for kids might be low

but we don't want to get needlessly sick with a virus we still don't know much about. Not to mention to the threat the children spreading the virus poses to teachers and staff and family members.

[DemocraticPatriot]

12. Point taken. However, all that rigorous schooling will be of no use

for those who end up dying.

Working class and poor families will certainly suffer if a parent ends up dying of covid because of this.


I guess at some point, we will be reduced to discussing "acceptable losses".

[CrackityJones75]

14. Just sent my kid off to school. Because I had to.

I am not happy. I am completely uneasy about it. I had no choice in the matter. There were no other options for me.

We know it is going to be a complete shit show. But we have to send our kids anyway. What the fuck?!

[Chainfire]

15. the "why" is easy.

If you close the schools, you admit that you have a serious problem that would then suggest the need to restrict businesses again. The people who make the decisions are not going to have the businesses restricted if it kills you.

The people who pull the strings value their money over your kids.

[Mad_Machine76]

18. It would seem

that everybody was geared up for schools to re-open in-person this year and either haven't adjusted or reoriented to the new reality or are refusing to do so, possibly hoping that things settle down. I know that my daughter's school is basing their decisions on whether or not to keep the schools open and in-person on local COVID rates and that they are going to become more virtual/restrictive if and when COVID gets worse in our area. A local school here in Indianapolis recently went back to virtual for a week due to COVID concerns. Also, schools being "open" seems to have become, like with masks and vaccination, another politicized issue, with Republicans demanding that schools open (probably the first and only time they are pretending to care about schools and children's mental health and educational needs) and Democrats (generally) being more cautious about it due to concerns about COVID.

[Scrivener7]

21. THIS! Things looked like this was a good idea before Delta. Now we have Delta. It's a bad idea.

[Mad_Machine76]

22. Yes!

It's called "adjusting to the reality on the ground".

[Iggo]

23. Money.

When you throw your arms in the air and scream, “Why?”, the answer is almost always “Because money.”

[Claire Oh Nette]

32. Bingo...

Working parents can't work if there are no schools to send the kidlets all day. The pandemic unemployment hit women especially hard--a million more women filed for unemployment than men.

For about six weeks in March and April 2020, when kids stayed home after spring break, parents discovered that teaching is hard, getting their kid to pay attention is hard, and that teachers were all way underpaid.

Opening schools last year was fine--the alpha variant didn't seem to impact children. This delta variant does. Kids in my experience don't care about the politics of masking. They pretty much do as they're told, and none of my students last year complained about the masks, they complained about not seeing their teachers and friends, and many realized they did, in fact, like school. (I taught 8th grade last year). The kids I've seen speaking at school board meetings who are anti-mask are parroting their parents.

The economy will not recover until we're back to normal wrt schools and day care. Until their own children are hospitalized or dead, those who think viruses care about political party do.not.care.how.many.die.

TFG's administration viewed COVID as an urban problem, and big cities tend to lean democratic. It was a calculated decision to do nothing once data revealed Black and Latino covid patients were disproportionally represented in the hospital and the morgue. Now that the virus is evolving, they're digging in, because if they admit they were wrong about covid being a hoax, they'll have to admit their entire world view is bullshit.

We're seeing evolution in real time, and were privy to a culling of the herd. These morons would rather defiantly eat horse dewormer than admit they backed the wrong horse.

The Mississippi congressman who said people in the South were less afraid of COvid because they "have eternal life" are terrified not of covid, but that they've believed bullshit all this time.

They want the illusion of normalcy while they suffer from mass delusion.

[sprinkleeninow]

52. Did that nifty comedienne do a video on "How To Money"?

[liberal_mama]

28. What about the parent's health when their children bring home Covid from school?

I just read a Facebook post about a child bringing home Covid from a bible camp. Both parents are now dead of Covid and their 4 children are orphans. That's got to be very traumatizing to lose one parent, much less both. This is not an uncommon situation either. There are many thousands of kids who have lost parents to Covid.

I know they need the kids in school so their mothers can work their low wage jobs, but I think there will be a terrible cost.

Last year at this time in Western New York, the daily cases were low (about 20 a day) and things really got out of hand when school started in mid-September. Cases are much higher now with Delta and in-person school will be starting on September 8.

I'm so happy that my 3 kids are grown. My kids would not be going to school if they were still young. They would be being homeschooled for sure until I felt it was safe.

[former9thward]

50. Parents can get vaccinated today if they wanted to.

If they are worried about their health that is what they should do.

[AwakeAtLast]

29. Beginning of my third week in person

In Illinois, following mask mandate (thank God!).

We will probably be remote or severely restricted next week. We were only remote for four days last year.

The Superintendent has brought in a 2nd RN to deal with it all, and we are a smaller district.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. New Mandate Here In Illinois

All school personnel must be vaxxed by September 30.
If not, they are subject to weekly testing, but if they are a close contact, daily.
For unvaxxed personnel, a close contact is 5 days off plus a negative test. A positive test is 10 days away with negative tests each of the last three days. The tests while out are not done at the school. They have to make an appointment somewhere & get it.
For vaxxed, a close contact requires one day out plus a negative test. A positive test is 5 days out with 2 negatives.
I got emails from 5 districts, TODAY, asking for a pic of my vax card.

[AwakeAtLast]

36. We have about 100 quarantined students

Most of our teachers are vaccinated, the others are Trump humpers.

[ProfessorGAC]

37. Two Districts Where I Sub...

...are unofficially reporting 100% of staff vaxxed. But, that's 2 out of 14.
The school where I was on Friday had zero kids out.
Decent size school. G7-8, around 700 kids, so around 350 per grade.

[AwakeAtLast]

38. I'm in blood red Southern Illinois

Only 30% vaccinated, they don't want masks,vim sure you get the idea.

[ProfessorGAC]

39. I Suspected As Much

We're up in the northeast corner, about 55 miles from downtown Chicago.
It's not impressive here, but way better than 30%.
Our county's more rural areas to the far east are where the refusers are high.
The county seat (fairly sizeable city) is up over 70%.

[Swede]

31. Follow the money.

Parents have to look after the kids if they ain't in school.

[MichMan]

33. Because remote learning by most accounts was ineffective at best.

Last edited Mon Aug 30, 2021, 07:32 PM - Edit history (1)

Students at best learned 70% of the required material and the majority were promoted anyway to the next grade. Children in poorer areas and districts fell even further behind. That will likely put them behind for the rest of their lives.

STEM subjects like math and science require a progression of learning and skills from one grade to the next. How can we possible expect a student to master Algebra, if they only learned 60% of the pre requisite lower level math classes ?

While keeping students behind was mentioned here by a couple posters as a good alternative, it doesn't seem like that was done and everyone was promoted anyway because it wasn't their fault.

[Mr.Bill]

35. For awhile, I was actually hopeful

that we had made an amazing discovery that at least for some kids in the upper grades bricks and mortar buildings were possibly obsolete. Maybe we could spend more money on educator's salaries and less on maintaining buildings that are often old and in disrepair. But then resistance to change and improvement reared it's ugly head as it often does in America.

[Dorian Gray]

40. Because

schools are open all throughout the world. Our children need normalcy and education. Schools also provide a WHOLE slew of services to children, and the shutdowns hurt the poorest in our nation more than anybody else.

We need to prioritize schools like they do in every other nation. It's possible to do it healthfully. Without spread. Masks. Encourage vaccines when/if kids can be. Mandate staff vaccines. Good ventilation. Space. Mass testing. Utilizing outdoor space when we can.

I'm VEHEMENTLY opposed to shutting schools down.

[JCMach1]

46. That's not what is happening... See my post below

[andym]

41. Vaccines for children will help keep them open

but vaccines are not approved yet. Will make a big difference.

[Scrivener7]

44. As will masks. And people are fighting tooth and nail against mask mandates.

[JCMach1]

45. My 11yo son (so no vaccine) has been directly exposed 6 out of 7

Of his last days at school.

Directly exposed= infected student, or staff member in his class.

It is way worse now.

No social distancing
No mask requirements


F'ing Texas

[Hekate]

47. Now mommy will have to return to work whether she wants to or not. Plus cut off benefits...

… so mommy really has to return to work or be evicted and see her kids go hungry.

See? It all works hand in glove.

P.S. I predicted at the outset that actual careers for women would be set back a generation.

[Raine]

48. Some friends of mine have decided to permanently homeschool their

two little girls. After a year of doing it at home they feel they can do good job educating they're kids at home (they're not RWNJ, they're lefties).

[scarytomcat]

57. because mothers are tired of the little ones under foot all day

they may appreciate teachers more after 20 months of hell

[Initech]

60. Because people's brains have been rotted by social media propaganda.

The anti-vaxxers and maskholes are united and they're pissed off. And they're infiltrating school board meetings with the message of "freeing the children" when they're not really freeing anything. Really, any deaths that happen as a result of the Delta Variant are on Mark Zuckerberg right now.