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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThanks Tonight for the Logical Progressives Who are Holding Out for the Future of the World
Instead of squandering our nation for the enrichment of a few who love to flaunt their wealth by literally sleeping in floating mansions, while many other Americans including little children and homeless vets are literally sleeping in the streets tonight.
No more half of a starvation loaf for us. Why should we settle for so little? Along with the big tax bucks to the fossil fuel industry? We would be foolish to vote for a any bill the republicants helped fashion without getting what we want first.
The public wants what we want; the whole loaf we have paid for already!
Go Progressives!
KPN
(15,641 posts)all of us. There are many today who would have been far better off 40 years ago. Im fine but Im old enough to know that. So yes, thank you progressives for hanging with and for all of us.
NJCher
(35,643 posts)Has amazed me. I dont think I would have the stamina or the patience.
Response to JoeOtterbein (Original post)
left-of-center2012 This message was self-deleted by its author.
TiberiusB
(487 posts)https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/politics/poll-shows-wv-voters-support-using-tax-hikes-on-rich-corporations-to-help-pay-for/article_0df66787-202a-5b5e-8eb9-f20e0cd622da.html
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/manchin-sinema-contradict-constituents-in-obstructing-build-back-better-bill-122254917824
https://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/92121
https://www.lcv.org/article/new-poll-three-in-four-voters-support-build-back-better-reconciliation-package/
https://buildingbacktogether.org/news/icymi-new-building-back-together-poll-build-back-better-agenda-remains-deeply-popular-across-key-states-members-of-congress-who-back-agenda-see-17-point-boost-in-support/
Response to TiberiusB (Reply #6)
left-of-center2012 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Celerity
(43,246 posts)Dems do, including the progs.
That poster is not trying to say 'oh the public wants the prog agenda over the Biden agenda'
atm they are the same thing
that sure as hell is not the progs
it is the tiny tiny group of conservadem obstructionists
everyonematters
(3,433 posts)So we go into the midterms. Swing voter ask,"what did you do on infrastructure" - answer "nothing". We could get the hard infrastructure bill and get the rest of the agenda in 22 or 24 with a bigger majority. We haven't had a major infrastructure bill in decades; the Chinese are spending bunches.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 1, 2021, 10:07 AM - Edit history (1)
It will hang around the necks of the obstructionists. You do not cave to the bad actors, give them what they want, and get nothing in return.
All Democrats are in this together. If one falls, we all fall.
everyonematters
(3,433 posts)How will that look in the midterms. The Democrats are not only screwing themselves, they are screwing with peoples lives and national security. Come to political reality and pass what can get passed now. Biden, Pelosi and Schumer have already decided to separate the bills, so you are going against them.
Celerity
(43,246 posts)of all of the rest of the Party, progressives included. They are standing up for Biden against the conservadems' attempts to shred vast portions of Biden's agenda.
The whole 'OMG, we will get nothing!' gambit is a false choice dilemma. The already vastly stripped-down bi-partisan bill is not in danger of being permanently killed at all.
everyonematters
(3,433 posts)Everyone is responsible for their own actions, not just the moderates. The Democrats have an opportunity to accomplish something that hasn't been done in decades. Trump couldn't get it done. The Democrats could.
Celerity
(43,246 posts)everyonematters
(3,433 posts)Celerity
(43,246 posts)Why are you so anxious to put a HUGE part of Biden's agenda at greater risk?
There is no danger to the bi-partisan bill atm.
Massive leverage will be lost if the bi-partisan bill is passed with no agreement to also pass the reconciliation bill.
The bi-partisan bill has FAR less immediate impact than the reconciliation bill does. Much of the bi-partisan bill doesn't kick in until after the midterms.
Manchin and Sinema already helped strip out almost 80% of Biden's agenda (the new spend + his environmental tax credits) from the bi-partisan bill. They reduced it from $2.6 trillion all the way down to $550 billion. The other $650 billion in the bi-partisan bill is simply renewal of long standing programmes (mostly transportation related) already in place under Trump.
The Infrastructure Plan: Whats In and Whats Out (it's brutal)
Biden's original plan:
What was left after they took a 2 trillion USD hatchet to it
They already chopped almost EIGHTY percent of actual new spending out of the hard infrastructure bill and now Manchin wants to chop another almost 60 to 70% out of the even bigger bill, one that needs ZERO Rethugs votes to pass, plus as of yesterday is till talking about pushing it to 2022.
The total new spending on Biden's original 2 bill proposals (hard and human) was $6.1 trillion.
IF Manchin and Sinema stick to their guns and chop out $2 trillion to $2.5 trillion of of the reconciliation bill, then you are looking at a total new spend for both bills of only $1.55 trillion to $2.05 trillion instead of $6.1 trillion.
That is a truly massive 2/3rds to 3/4ers total reduction in new spending when both bills are tallied up, and the vast majority will be from the parts the vast majority of ALL Dems all desperately want, especially things to address climate change and to help working class Americans. Pete DeFazio, the Chair of the House Transportation Committee has been very, very unhappy for ages about what the bi-partisan Senators did.
everyonematters
(3,433 posts)Passing an infrastructure bill helps that. Expanding the majority means more progressives, and a greater chance to pass Biden's agenda.
Celerity
(43,246 posts)midterms.
First I deal with the numbers and the programmes in the bills, then I will talk midterms.
The US budget for 2020 was a $6.1 trillion spend in ONE year. IF we passed the full $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill (very doubtful we get to 3.5 trillion) AND the bi-partisan bill, we are still only spending (new spend + tax credits) $4 trillion OVER TEN YEARS in new spend.
$400 billion a year out of a budget that last year alone was 6.1 trillion for ONE YEAR. That's is only 6.5% of last years budget, so the numbers are FAR from massive, and that is IF we get the full $3.5 trillion passed. If we only get $2.5 trillion passed for reconciliation, then the new spend is only 300 billion usd per year, LESS that 5% of last years budget spend. We spend $1.5 trillion EACH YEAR on the war/security/surveillance state.
Biden's $2.6 trillion hard infrastructure proposal has been decimated down to only $550 billion. It is disingenuous to claim that renewal for 650 billion is part of some new Biden agenda. It is just highway and transportation programmes that are renewed tear after year
Let's say we someone get Manchin and Sinema to agree to $2.5 trillion for the reconciliation bill. That means that HALF of Biden's agenda for both bills combined is in the bin, trashed, gone.
Massive parts of his agenda, his campaign promises, vital programmes just go POOF. I already showed you the decimation of the bi-partisan bill, and now, even if we get the conservadems to only knock out 1 trillion usd from the reconcillation bill, a TONNE more will go poof.
The are BIDEN'S programmes, NOT (like the massive gaslighting going on by shitheels like the Wall street Journal are now saying/framing) Bernie Sanders or the Progressive level of bills.
They wanted 6 trillion usd for the reconciliation and 4 trillion usd for the hard infrastructure bill. $10 TRILLION.
They met long ago with Biden and dropped down from 6 trillion to 3.5 on reconciliation, and agreed to go basically 'hands off' on the bi-partisan deal. They have already given up aka compromised on 6 TRILLION dollars LESS, and that goes to 7 TRILLION LESS is the final reconciliation total is 2.5 trillion.
The progressives will have, at that point given in on 70 percent of all of their proposals. These are already NOT their bills. Bit they are fighting for Biden to get what he can,
IF we did pass the tiny $550 billion (over 10 years) bi-partisan bill NOW, and lose leverage, and then the conservadems scupper the bloody reconciliation, we (as in the entire Party) are FUCKED going into 2022,
$550 billion out of Bidens' $6.1 trillion totla in the 2 proposals. That means we lost 91% of both bills news spend. almost all of Biden's agenda in the ditch.
Even IF we somehow (after givenig ip leverage) some how get Manchin and Sinema to go for $1.5 trillion, say in 2022, Biden still got GUTTED for almost 70%.
Here is the reconciliation bill in detail.
Manchin and Sinema both say 1.5 trillion max (Manchin Saud he really wants only 1 trillion usd, but he is (LOL, he had the jacobs to claim this) 'compromising in a huge way by going up yo $1.5 trillion.
Not only that, BUT, those two have DIFFERENT programmes they each say are a deffo NO NO. One sys oki to one thing, BIT the other says NO, so that 1.5 trillion, IF there is no leverage, may be lowers.
Tell me
if you have to cut SIXTY percent from these, what are you going to accept?
Some of this is NOT esoteric, it us funding for pre existing programmes, btw.
$332 billion for the Banking Committee. Including investments in public housing, the Housing Trust Fund, housing affordability, and equity and community land trusts.
$198 billion for the Energy and Natural Resources Committee. This would develop clean energy. (and remember, almost all environmental spend and tax credits were already gutted from the bi-partisan bill, as I have already shown)
$67 billion for the Environment and Public Works Committee. These monies would fund low-income solar and other climate-friendly technologies.
$1.8 trillion for the Finance Committee. This part of the bill is for investments in working families, the elderly, and the environment. It includes a tax cut for Americans making less than $400,000 a year, lowering the price of prescription drugs, and ensuring the wealthy and large corporations pay their fair share of taxes. (this is prime funding here, and Manchinema want mass cuts here, which blows it up)
$726 billion for the Health, Labor, Education, and Pensions Committee. This addresses universal pre-K for 3- and 4-year-olds, childcare for working families, tuition-free community college, funding for historically black colleges and universities, and an expansion of the Pell Grant for higher education.
$37 billion for the HSGAC Committee. This would electrify the federal vehicle fleet, electrify and rehab federal buildings, improve cybersecurity infrastructure, reinforce border management, invest in green-materials procurement, and invest in resilience. (agin most all was guttend from the other bill already)
$107 billion for the Judiciary Committee. These funds address establishing "lawful permanent status for qualified immigrants."
$20.5 billion for the Indian Affairs Committee. This addresses Native American health programs and facilities, education programs and facilities, housing programs, energy programs, resilience and climate programs, BIA programs and facilities, Native language programs, and the Native Civilian Climate Corps.
$25 billion for the Small Business Committee. This provides for small business access to credit, investment, and markets.
$18 billion for the Veterans Affairs Committee. This funds upgrades to veteran facilities.
$83 billion for the Commerce Committee. This goes to investments in technology, transportation, research, manufacturing, and economic development. It provides funding for coastal resiliency, healthy oceans investments, including the National Oceans and Coastal Security Fund and the National Science Foundation research and technology directorate.
Say bye bye to 30% all the way up to 70% of that. OR ALL of it, if they scupper the entire thing.
Now, the midterms:
We are already in around a 10 seat Minority in the House before a single vote is cast, due to partisan redistricting by the Rethugs.
The last 2 'first term of a Dem POTUS' midterms (1994 and 2010) we were fucking a massacre, we were CRUSHED. Far bigger losses than we had a win in 2018, so we are fighting that horrid historical trend.
Now add in voter suppression (if we fail on voter protection bills).
Add in a HUGE fail on promises if we cock up the reconciliation infrastructure bills. and NO, rolling in with only 550 billion in new spend (IF we lose the whole 3.5 trillion bill) is NOT going to remotely help. AT ALL. It is a joke (55 billon per year, with is less that ONE PERCENT of 2020's budget).
Even if we do oki with the reconciliation bill, we still are likely to lose 25 to 35 seats on net (that is counting the negative ten or so we are already at).
In the Senate, we will be lucky to stay at 50/50 or go up by 51 D to 49 R
we have only 2 seats with a truly really good shot at, opens seats in
PA
NC
Wisconsin is the next most likely,
and as truly longer shots, FL, and OH
That's it for realistic, non wish-fulfilment races. We are not going to win IA, not IN, not KY. Those are fantasyland races, just like TX, KY, and SC were time.
We have 4 at risk seats
2 really at risk
GA Warnock (voter suppression up the arse, dead ahead cap'n)
NH (Hassan is in deep trouble if Sununu runs)
and then
NV Cortez Masto dodged a huge bullet when Sandoval said no, not this time
AZ Kelly dodged a bullet when Ducey said no, not this time
We are fighting that first Dem midterm tide in the Senate too, and IF we cock up the reconciliation bill, well, strap on, it is goig to be a rough ride.
No matter what, the House is likely gone, I am extraordinarily sad to say. Yhinks really need to break our way in a MASSIE fashion to retain the House and gain 2 seats net in the Senate (and thus negate Manchinema)
everyonematters
(3,433 posts)Celerity
(43,246 posts)Biden and House/Senate big meeting. That is for the reconciliation bill, and it was laid out by Biden himself.
I was not complaining, I was laying out a reality-based scenario, full of granular detail.
everyonematters
(3,433 posts)It's not all or nothing.
Celerity
(43,246 posts)and falsely tried to claim that for all the people who refuse to give up leverage and cave into the demands of a handful of renegade Problem Solvers-type of centrist/conservative moderates
That small tiny group of 10 House centrist/conservative moderate Dems (original 9 + later Stephanie Murphy) are the main reason there is even all thus drama, as they tried to strong-arm Pelosi (not surprising as many of them lead the revolt to kick her from the Speaker job) into forcing a vote for the bi-partisan bill with zero commitment's for the reconciliation bill, which Biden and Pelosi have now shot down.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)This is just from West Virginia voters alone. They overwhelmingly support the reconciliation bill if it's paid for by taxes on the rich
Tell the obstructionists to stop voting against the interest of the majority.
George II
(67,782 posts)....in the House?
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)nvme
(860 posts)If we want to get our agenda moving we need to cave to the 2 (DINO)s and get more seats in the senate so we can make the DINOs irrelevant. How the hell can we convince the swing voters if we can't rally our own party. This is the only reason I hate being a dem. I saw this same shenanigan's When we were trying to move Obamacare. Ben Nelson and his ilk tried to derail us. I wish the leaders would whip up the votes. I am sorry but the Progressives need to back down and give the party a win.
Celerity
(43,246 posts)like the massively reduced (almost 80%, over 2 trillion usd, of Biden's original proposals were chopped out by those 2 conservadems working with the Rethugs in the Senate) bi-partisan bill was.
It cannot even be claimed with certainty that the reconciliation bill even gets a vote if the rest of the Dems cave into them. Manchinema are not trustworthy enough to go ahead and pass the bi-partisan bill on blind faith alone.
The centre right needs to fold this time, as that tiny group is going against 95% of the rest of the Caucus Biden and Harris included. The conservadems needs to compromise now, not the other 95%, as that 95% already HAS massively compromised and has backed Biden all the way.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Manchinema and maybe the 9 gottheimer gang.
They need to figure out that they are Democrats first and they were elected to make sure Biden's agenda is successful.
Why should the vast majority fold for the fanaticism of the vanishing few?
Celerity
(43,246 posts)almost all of them are projects that are off in the future, the vast majority AFTER the 2022 midterms. It is the 3.5 trillion usd reconciliation bill that is the one with IMMEDIATE impact items, YET the conservadems are false framing it in the exact opposite way, saying that they need the bi-partisan bill NOW, far more than the reconciliation bill (again the reconcilliation bill is the one that has the vast majority of Biden's big campaign promises in it, the ones with immediate relief and impact).
When I watch the US mainstream news channels like MSNBC, etc, they show political adverts, and other than some shithouse big pharma scare tactics adverts (Cue sinister voice: 'Oh noes! if Medicare can negotiate on prices, your family may die because pf a lack of drugs they have used for years but now will disappear!') the VAST majority are pro reconciliation, pro Biden bills and list SO many programmes and talk how wonderful they will be (they would be, yes they would). One small problem........ so many of those programmes are the exact ones that the conservadems say NO NO NO to, or ones that will have the shit cut out of them, IF they even survive the Manchinema + Problem Solvers woodchopper, ffs.
It is the stuff of Alice through the looking glass.
TiberiusB
(487 posts)I appreciate people's desperation to get something passed, but I don't see this bill helping the 2022 elections.
McConnell balks at the debt ceiling, vows to derail the Biden administration, and openly embraces Sinema and Manchin for blocking Democratic initiatives, but is ready to pass a bill that will somehow overcome all the voter suppression and gerrymandering and give the Democrats a stronger majority?
...a bill crafted to placate corporations and the wealthy by selling off public infrastructure and eliminating any tax increases on the rich by leveraging funds previously earmarked for other economic relief funds (small business loans, unemployment, housing, and so on...that should play well at election time)...
He's just that stupid?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/us/how-to-pay-for-infrastructure.html
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cbo-estimates-infrastructure-bill-would-add-256-billion-to-deficits-11628196739
George II
(67,782 posts).....the politics I grew up with.
To turn your first question around, how could we NOT support a bill backed by President Biden, Majority Leader Schumer, Speaker Pelosi and hundreds of other Democrats in the House and Senate?
Have you read the bill? On the assumption that you haven't (I don't think anyone outside of Congress has) how do you know it's "a bill crafted to placate corporations and the wealthy by selling off public infrastructure and eliminating any tax increases on the rich"?
If that's true, I think we'd all appreciate the details.
TIA.
BlueLucy
(1,609 posts)In my opinion Hillary also likely supports this move.
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)Hillary would support Joe Biden.
BlueLucy
(1,609 posts)I think Joe Biden is happy the progressives have forced Manchin and Sinema to start talking about what they want.
George II
(67,782 posts)....AND my President.
Response to JoeOtterbein (Original post)
left-of-center2012 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Celerity
(43,246 posts)Caving in to the tiny group of conservadems now and tossing away all leverage puts Biden's big reconciliation bill in serious danger of being gutting like a trout (just like they ripped out almost 80% of Biden's new spend on the bipartisan bill) or possibly not passed at all.
George II
(67,782 posts)betsuni
(25,442 posts)2016 called.
Patton French
(752 posts)..this time they have leverage/muscle, and they flexed it.
George II
(67,782 posts)betsuni
(25,442 posts)Worrying about campaign contributors? How ironic.
Do they really think if they get what they want in the House even, that it is going to pass the Senate? It's won't.