Pronouns: he, him, his or she, her, hers

[grumpyduck]

How many of you use, or are required to use, your pronouns in your email signatures, i.e., John Smith he, his, him.

A number of people at my office have started using them, so I'm just curious (I'm one of the hold-outs).

[Walleye]

1. I've always gotten them mixed up anyway in conversation. Some kind of dyslexia

So now I’ll fit right in

[Ohio Joe]

2. I don't think I understand the question....

Why would you not use pronouns in an email? I would think that it could make them difficult to write sometimes.

[grumpyduck]

3. Thanks. I revised the question.

[Ohio Joe]

10. ahh, ok I see now...

We are not asked to do this but I don't think I'd have an issue with it if I was asked. I work with people I've never met and most of whom I've never seen. A lot of them also have names I've never heard before because they are from different countries and I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to foreign names. I've also been corrected on pronoun use where I thought I had it right but I was wrong... An apology and correction of my usage and all is well. Updating my sig line for my work email would take about 30 seconds, then never a thought again... I'm not sure I see a problem with it. What about it bothers you?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

18. I don't do it on my e-mail sigs

But I do put it on my social media. I have a lot of Enby and Trans friends so it's just an easy way to support them. The more people do it, the more it becomes commonplace and the people who use different pronouns don't have to stand-out by requesting.

[grumpyduck]

20. It's not that it bothers me,

and you make a very good point about foreign (and even some non-foreign) names. However, where I work, in CA, and knowing the people at my work who are generally doing it, it seems that they're doing it mostly to be politically correct. Just my opinion, and thanks for all the responses.

[meadowlander]

61. Sometimes "being politically correct" is just being polite and correct.

[MLAA]

4. I've seen it a few times in emails.

I’m retired and only see the rare business email but I think it’s fine. Clarifies how individuals prefer to be addressed 🙂

[Sympthsical]

5. It's optional at both work and school

I don't bother. Just don't find it particularly necessary.

But I'll certainly respect anyone else's wish to be addressed a certain way.

[TheProle]

8. Same

[Ms. Toad]

65. You apparently don't need to identify your pronouns because your name/presentation match

(it's not necessary)

For many, however, it is not a choice because theirs don't match - and it is just one more thing they have to do to be treated with dignity and respect that you apparently don't have to do. And - when they announce their pronouns, there is no guarantee that the response will be as yours is.

The more it becomes the norm not to assume pronouns based on name/presentation, the easier it will be for those who currently bear all of the burden of being "other" than the norm.

[Sympthsical]

68. Nowhere did I state that I didn't understand that

I said I don't do it for myself, as I find it unnecessary. I'm a cis male with a very recognizably male name. So, I don't feel the need.

Things can be taken only so far. Demanding people change how they present themselves for your ideological satisfaction is a basic non-starter.

It's my identity. It's my choice how I choose to present myself.

And I will respect how others choose to present their identity.

Sometimes it's better to approach a subject with fingers off the trigger.

[Ms. Toad]

81. My point precisely.

I'm a cis male with a very recognizably male name. So, I don't feel the need.

No one is demanding you change how you present yourself. Your identiy is male, you use male pronouns.

The suggestion is that you spend some of your privilege by making it easier for people who are less privileged in this aspect of their lives by challenging the assumptions that name or presentation = gender.

[ret5hd]

6. Hmmm...I'd be forced to use:

a-hole, dumbass, twit.

[we can do it]

7. They/them can be chose by those who identify non-binary.

[Champp]

9. Coming Attraction: Smee

Last edited Wed Oct 6, 2021, 11:57 AM - Edit history (1)

In the future everyone will use "smee" as the universal, uncontestable, most appropriate, Q-sexual, rhymes-with-a lot-of-other-words, handy pronoun.

Example: How many smee of smee use smee in smee sentences?

Got it? Good.

[Klaralven]

15. Just use neuter plural pronouns - they, their, them or you, your

Or better still, since in this case you know the name, John, John's, and John.

[unblock]

11. I'm starting to see this a lot lately,

Mostly from people with unusual names or names that do not distinctly suggest a gender.

So, I've never seen a Jeff or a Mary add pronouns, but I have seen it with a Jaime or a Maeve.

Of course, I've also seen it from non-binary people or trans-people who haven't changed their name, but this is less common, even though I think this is where the practice originated.

I'm not required at work to do this, and my name is distinctly male, which matches my gender identification, so I don't bother.

I actually have mixed feelings about this practice. I think it's a good convenience to head off mistakes. On the other hand, I think society makes way, way too much of gender identification, so ideally I'd prefer we all got more comfortable with not knowing and not caring about everyone's gender identification.

I work in finance. People's gender should be completely irrelevant.

[PatSeg]

25. Okay, please help me here

How do people use a pronoun in their signature line?

Also, I agree that in many, if not most circumstances business related, gender should be irrelevant.

[CrackityJones75]

28. That is sort of like....

That is sort of like “I don’t see color”.

[PatSeg]

38. When it comes to the content of a business email

or memo, the gender of the writer should be irrelevant. Whether we like it or not, most people do judge based on gender, age, politics, religion, race, etc., often unconsciously. I have had people online assume I was a man based on what I wrote or by a photograph I've taken. Sometimes when they found out I was a woman, their reaction would change, even though the comment or the photo were not gender related.

The same thing has happened to me regarding age. People tend to make certain assumptions based one's generation, because we are inclined to put people into pigeon holes. In so many respects, we tend to communicate better if we aren't burdened by prejudices based on identifiers. This would especially be true in business communications.

[unblock]

43. agreed, and online communication is an interesting venue in that color and gender actually can be

left undetermined.

it would be helpful if english had a singular, gender-neutral pronoun that wasn't only for inanimate objects....

[PatSeg]

54. Yes it would

As someone else pointed out, English did once have gender-neutral pronouns, "thee", "thy", and "thine". It is interesting that they became obsolete, but were not replaced other than with "you" and "your".

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. I don't understand - "you" and "your" are also gender-neutral

One set of gender-neutral pronouns - the informal 2nd person singular - were replaced by another - the formal 2nd person singular, which is also the 2nd person plural. All of them have always been gender-neutral. It has nothing at all to do with 3rd person pronouns, which are the only ones with genders in English.

[CrackityJones75]

63. When you take the people out of business

When you take the people out of business, don’t be shocked that business doesn’t care about people.

It is wrong to discriminate. It is also wrong to force people to not exist. Or to willingly give up their existence.

[Sympthsical]

39. Some places allow for it

For work, where we use regular e-mail, people will put it in parentheses under their name, in the same area where our job title and number/ext are.

For school, we use an internal messaging system to talk with professors and other students. There's an option in your profile to activate pronouns so they'll appear by your name whenever you send out messages.

[PatSeg]

51. Thank you

[unblock]

40. so, let's say your name is pat and you want people to know you identify as male

you might sign your name:

best,
pat
he/him


or if female:

best,
pat
she/her


in a business context i see it included in the standard email signature along with the usual -- company name, address, phone numbers, etc.

[PatSeg]

53. Thanks, I just couldn't picture

how or where one would put the pronouns in a signature. That helped.

[LeftInTX]

70. John Smith, him

I see this in some progressive circles.

[PatSeg]

73. Thanks, it just feels rather odd to me,

but if it takes into consideration the preferences of some people, I suppose it is a good thing. It just doesn't look like a signature, but over the years there have been all kinds of prefixes and suffixes used for various reasons and people adapted.

[meadowlander]

59. I think the point is to make it comfortable and normal for people to specify what pronouns they want

you to use for them.

I'm non-binary but don't really care which I use since it's basically six of one half a dozen of the other but I don't like "they/it/etc." because that feels dehumanizing.

It has the added benefit of making it easier to guess whether someone with a name from an unfamiliar culture or an ambisexual name is male or female if you haven't met them in person yet.

Since it's a pretty tiny, harmless thing to do and has obvious benefits I don't understand why anyone, especially on a "liberal" board would be "holding out" on doing it as the OP says they are doing.

The fact is that peoples' gender isn't irrelevant and as long as we live in a gendered society we might as well empower people to navigate for themselves and to clearly and conveniently signal to others what gender they identify with.

[leftstreet]

72. +1

On the other hand, I think society makes way, way too much of gender identification, so ideally I'd prefer we all got more comfortable with not knowing and not caring about everyone's gender identification.

I'm old enough to think we'd come a long ways from "Miss, Mr, etc..." which probably fell into a category closer to honorifics or something. But the gender thing never seems to go away

[SCantiGOP]

12. There's a line for it in LinkedIn on your profile

But probably 5% at the most choose time include it.

[jimfields33]

13. I'm not adding them

I haven’t seen any come across my e-mail at all.

[hlthe2b]

14. I have no problem respecting someone's personal wishes, but if they have a preference...

I think it falls to the individual to indicate that, rather than putting the onus on EVERYONE.

So, yeah, I find the expectation that EVERYONE will do so--every time-- to be a bit silly.

[vanlassie]

26. By this you mean you don't feel a need to do this yourself?

And you are fine if others do, so, for example, if you were going to communicate with them, you would be able to use their preferred pronouns?

[hlthe2b]

27. Yes. That is what I said.

Absolutely...

[vanlassie]

31. 👍👍

Yea, I don’t think people should think it’s now a requirement for everyone. I do love they way allies are supporting others tho.

[Ms. Toad]

67. Putting the onus on everyone is the main reason for doing it.

Most of us live our lives never having to think about whether someone will use the wrong pronoun for us. It's an extra emotional burden for those who are different. (And in this climate - revealing/wrestling with revealing a pronoun that doesn't match - or tolerating being mis-gendered is often not a simple choice, and can be terrifying)

The point is to put the onus on everyone to disclose their pronouns (even when they "match" so non-assumption about pronouns (rather than assumption) becomes the norm.

[hlthe2b]

69. No, the onus is on EVERYONE to RESPECT a chosen pronoun when identified.

As one whose professional signature line already is required to incorporate all my professional degrees and titles-- adding yet another line is not something I'm going to do, though I have no problem whatsoever with others doing so. Good for them.

And I have decades of experience given my first name is as likely to be male as female and my profession has for decades lent itself to male assumptions given societal stereotypes. While that has never bothered me, I am quite aware of the difference that comes when someone is transitioning with my own situation. Just as I feel when I find I mispronounce or fail to remember the correct name, I make certain not to do so in the future.

Respect is what is required from and to us all--not additional demands on how I personally sign my own professional documents and letters (or digital communications).

[Ms. Toad]

80. That's a start.

But it still leaves a disproportionate burden on those whose appearance/name dosn't match their gender.

It is like saying to a room of people, "Speak up if you can't hear me," (since I can't be bothered to use the mic.) Rather than being inclusive and using a mic which makes it possible for far more people to feel welcomed, it forces the person who needs the mic to interrupt thngs to have their basic needs met.

[MissB]

16. It was unusual to see just a few years ago

And now pretty much everyone uses it at work. I’m seeing it more and more in outside emails as well.

It’s the way the world is moving.

I don’t hate it; I’m just too lazy to edit my sig block. I’ll get around to it eventually.

[multigraincracker]

17. Happy Birthday Pat.

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/its-pat-birthday-party/3505906

[70sEraVet]

19. There really SHOULD be a set of non-gender pronouns for use when a gender is unkown.

'Its' is demeaning, and 'they' or 'their' is confusing, as it commonly implies a plural form.
The English language outgrew the use of 'thee', 'thy' and 'thine'. Surely it can evolve to reflect society's advancements?

[PatSeg]

23. I always found it rather odd

that English no longer has a non-gender pronoun for singular use, like "they" and "their" for plural use. It often makes writing very awkward. Maybe bring back "thee", "they", and "thine". It must be terribly confusing for people who are learning English as a second language.

[nuxvomica]

36. The plural forms are acceptable now when referring to a singular

It took me a while to get used to it but it's no different than what happened to "you" and "your", for which there used to be singular forms. So "The doctor left their coat" is ok when you don't know the gender of the doctor. I think this change in usage preceded the use of plural forms for people who don't identify with a gender.

[PatSeg]

44. Oh yes, it did precede the use of plural forms

for people who don't identify with a gender. Though I do use them, it is still with some discomfort, as I feel like I am cheating. I had some really effective English teachers with ruthless red pencils. Sometimes I will use he/she, but if you have to use it too often, it becomes too awkward.

As for a non-binary person, it seems like there should be more appropriate pronouns than "they", "their", or "them", but language is determined by those who use it, so the plural pronouns will probably endure and we will adjust as we always do.

[nuxvomica]

66. I've gotten used to "they/them/their" for singular

But I will probably never get used to using "who" instead of "that" for dependent clauses referring to people. That's another usage change since I finished school and I find it very annoying.

[PatSeg]

71. I think we all have some of those

depending on how influential our teachers were when we were young. I can accept many of the changes, but the discomfort level is still there.

[RobinA]

78. I Can't Get

used to this at all. "The doctor left their coat" just won't come out of my mouth and I can't hear it without also hearing alarm bells and a klaxon. If an individual wanted to be referred to as "them" or "they" I could teach myself to do it for that person, but it would never generalize in my head.

[nuxvomica]

84. Unfortunately, the alternative would be to use the masculine

When I was in school, if the antecedent was of indeterminate gender, the singular masculine pronoun was used by default: "The doctor left his coat." The explanation was stated waggishly as "because 'man' embraces 'woman'." I've only come around to accepting this the more I have been disgusted by how patriarchal our society is and that "you" long ago went through the same transition, replacing the singular "thou", thus providing a precedent. It's still tough to get used to it, so I completely understand your reluctance.

[Act_of_Reparation]

35. We have one.

It's they/them, and they've been in use as singulars since the 14th century.

Most pronouns, when used properly, have an antecedent. I'm not sure how they can be confusing.

[Sympthsical]

42. As a gay man who played the pronoun game often and with great relish

They/them was an invaluable tool when I was in the closet.

In any e-mail or content where I want/need to mask the identity of an individual, I just use they. It's clear from context I'm discussing one person. Sometimes with my job (HR), there are situations where I really don't want there to be the slightest bit of identifying information. Especially if it's a situation where gender could really narrow down who is being discussed.

They/them does for me just fine.

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. Why are you confused by 'they' (both singular and plural), but not 'you' (both singular and plural)?

If you're thankful that the singular-and-familiar-only 'thou' was replaced by the singular-or-plural, familiar-or-formal 'you', then wouldn't the equivalent for the 3rd person be to use 'they' for both singular and plural?

[hunter]

21. Here's a bbc article.

In the English language, the word "he" is used to refer to males and "she" to refer to females. But some people identify as neither gender, or both - which is why an increasing number of US universities are making it easier for people to choose to be referred to by other pronouns.

--more--

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34901704

I suspect the "they, them, their" usage is going to evolve with some sort of inflection that distinguishes the singular from plural:

de (dee) / der / dey

-or-

ta / ter / tay

If not, maybe this is easier:

e / em / es

Eventually one of these will make its way into to written English.

Here's some history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_languages_with_gendered_third-person_pronouns#Historical,_regional,_and_proposed_gender-neutral_singular_pronouns

[honest.abe]

33. I really hate the they/their singular use.

It seems so wrong but unfortunately no decent alternative.

[Hortensis]

45. Same. I'd be delighted if singular forms were to develop.

But I'll use whatever a person indicates. "Their" choice.

[honest.abe]

74. Yes, "they" have the right to do so.

Ugh.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

87. I've seen xe/xir used as well

That one seems strange to me, but I've only seen it online and in print, all the enby friends I have are they/them.

[Silent3]

22. I have a first name that a lot of people mistake for female, even though I'm male

But I've never been bothered by having the wrong pronouns used for me, at least in my adulthood. I still think of this kind of publicly-made pronoun declaration/clarification as something usually done by transgender or nonbinary people whose preferences might not otherwise be obvious.

And although I'm certainly willing to go alone with whatever pronouns an individual prefers I use with them, I have to admit using "they" for a known individual person feels really grammatically awkward and uncomfortable for me.

[PatSeg]

24. Yes, very awkward and uncomfortable for me as well

I often feel like I have some long dead English teacher looking over my shoulder whenever I am writing.

[hunter]

37. I was always at war with my English teachers from grade school thru college.

Damn the grammar and spelling, full speed ahead!

No inhibitions, I wrote whatever popped into my head.

Still do.

[PatSeg]

50. My first rule is

to make sure that I am effectively communicating what I have to say. That is especially true with punctuation. Some of the rules that I learned in school have helped to make my writing more intelligible, whereas others are just nitpicking and don't really contribute anything of value.

I do care about spelling, as too many misspellings could detract from the content and also brings to mind right-winger protest signs and Facebook memes. I rely a lot on spellcheck though.

[hunter]

56. If I start obsessing about the rules I freeze up and don't write anything at all.

I dunno, maybe that's a good thing.

[PatSeg]

60. Oh yes, that can be very inhibiting

When you are on a roll, it is best to just go with the flow. You can always go back and double check what you wrote, which I learned is a good habit, as some mistakes totally change the meaning of what you wrote. It has happened to me enough times, that I proofread what I write most of the time.

For some reason, writing online a lot, I find myself making more and more careless mistakes. 'To' instead of 'too'; 'there' instead of 'their'; 'are' instead of 'our' - mistakes I rarely ever made before. Age probably doesn't help though!

[vanlassie]

30. Me too, but, I love how a non-binary person I follow

explains it. If people say “I just can’t use “they” for one person…” they say “Oh look! Someone left their umbrella here! I hope THEY come back for it!”

[Silent3]

47. That's why I said *known* singular person

Yes, "they" for a non-specific or unknown person has a long history of usage in English, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that. But because of that usage, it feels either ungrammatical or depersonalizing to use "they" for a specific, known person.

[vanlassie]

55. My mom was an English major. Tell me about it!😜

[hlthe2b]

62. I have the same in reverse and also work as a professional in field that has long been assumed male.

But, yeah, it doesn't bother me because I'm used to it, but also because those who know me (or who have at least met me) don't make the mistake.

Obviously, that can be different for those transitioning and I can appreciate why they take this so personally. So, just as I do when I find I have mispronounced or mistaken a name, I take great pains not to do so again.

That said, I am not going to include in my own already overwhelming signature line a series of chosen pronouns (given my sigline is already required to include a litany of professional degrees and titles). But, if others do so, I'm happy to take note and respect the choice.

[romana]

29. I do not

I do not have preferred pronouns but I respect the preferred pronouns of others.

[fishwax]

32. it's not required in my work, but it's becoming pretty standard voluntarily

it seems like a simple way to show support for trans and non-binary folk.

That said, I don't do it myself--but that's just because I don't really use siglines. In certain circumstances I may add it to the end of an email or to a particular profile depending on context.

[Mossfern]

34. Just a thought

When speaking or writing to someone, one uses the pronouns 'you','your'. It's only when you're referring to them to ANOTHER person that you use the specific pronouns. If Ms.Smith referred to me to Mr. Jones as "him", I would never know!

What do we do with titles like Mr. and Ms.? Are they considered rude now?
BTW, I'm Cis female. Is that how I say it?

[ananda]

41. I like it.

My former niece is now a they/them.

So I think it's a good idea.

[ismnotwasm]

46. My hospital asks patients their preferred pronouns, always.

We are respectful of pronouns with our co-workers. I think it depends on where you live. The idea is not to assume.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

48. I'm a HS teacher. I do it in my signature. It helps normalize the use.

That way, those that don't use the binary ones aren't the only ones that are telling people their pronouns.

[Amishman]

49. I don't and won't, would be unusual and attract unwanted attention

No one at my current work has pronouns listed in their signature and doing so would attract a lot of attention in ways I'd rather avoid.

Honestly the whole pronoun issue is one that has me a little uneasy. I can easily see myself accidentally using one incorrectly by accident and causing offense. It's just not something I've grown up considering and I can see a lifetime of habit getting me in trouble. (This is primarily with those who prefer they/them, which I'm just not used to using in these contexts)

[Ms. Toad]

79. Precisely the point -

How do you think the experience is for someone whose pronouns don't match their name/appearance would be in your current work? The point of all of us doing it is to make it the norm, so that it makes life easier for those who have less choice about attracting attention in ways you can (apparently) choose to avoid.

[beaglelover]

52. At my company, the only people who do that are the HR Directors.

[vanlassie]

57. At 69 years old, I have come to greatly respect Jeffery Marsh.

They are non-binary- saying they are neither male or female. At first I was uncomfortable with their looks, dress, etc. But I think this person is doing a LOT of good in the world and I have learned tons from them. I love listening to their short vids.

http://www.jeffreymarsh.com/

[Mad_Machine76]

58. Not required

but I'm allowed to.

[Ms. Toad]

64. Please do - it is a way of not "othering" trans, non-binary, genderqueer individuals.

I use pronouns in my email, and try to introduce myself that way. When I ask others to, I always get some smartass who says, "Well, it's obvious."

For many, it isn't. Aside from non-binary individuals, there are many women with a more masculine presentation who are constantly harassed when they use the women's room. With the focus on potty bills to exclude trans women from restrooms, sports, etc. it has become more and more common for women AFAB (assigned female at birth) to be threatened because their appearance suggests to some they are trans - and that they are simply men pretending they are women. I believe it is less common for effeminate males - but the assumption that gender is clear from appearance is toxic.

In written communications, it is still fairly common to address people with gendered titles (Ms./Mr.). So the person whose gender doesn't match their name is constantly required to wrestle with "outing" themselves - something those of us whose gender matches our appearance and our names never have to do. I haven't had this particular struggle - but whenever it is appropriate to mention my family to people who haven't met them it always (still, after 40 years) starts my heart racing as I evaluate whether to expressly identify my spouse as female, use gender neutral pronouns, etc., use signal words to see if they pick up on it. Again - that is something you may never have experienced if your sexual orientation and life partner are the "expected" gender. But it is a bit like living with low-level chronic pain. Even though it is mostly no longer a big deal, it is just always there sucking away energy I could spend elsewhere.

So using pronouns (especially when your pronouns are the "expected" ones) puts everyone on equal footing. It also serves as a signal that you are someone it is safe to be out to (an increasing need as trans/non-binary/genderqueer individuals are being subjected to inreasing levels of violence). And - it gives you an opportunity to help educate others.

[RobinA]

76. I Am Not

required to use this and I do not. My supervisor does, I'm not sure why. Nor would I if required, but I kind of doubt if that would ever happen. I am who I appear to be and my name, at least in this country, is female. I have a lower than average voice for a girl, so I've now and then been called "he" on the phone. The world continues to spin. I'm not big on the label thing, but if someone has a preference I will call them what they want me to.

[LeftInTX]

83. It's an LGBT inclusive thing...I'm not LGBT, so it's more out of respect for the LBGT community.

I don't use it, but I don't work. If someone wanted me to use it, I would be fine with it or if everyone in my circle of friends was using it, I would go along with it.

[Withywindle]

82. Not required to, but I choose to

I'm a cis woman and I have a lot of friends who are trans (who might not be perceived as their actual gender at first) and nonbinary. It's just one little thing I can do to help make life a little easier for them, by normalizing the practice.

I list mine as she/her/they/them because I'm completely fine with being called "they" in the abstract by someone who is talking about my work without being sure of my gender. I also tend to use "they" as a neutral when I don't know someone else's gender. "He or she" is so much clunkier, and it erases people who are neither he nor she, so I've dropped that completely and wouldn't miss it if it disappeared altogether.

[DFW]

85. Never even heard of that. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. Slight diversion: why 3 pronouns in the example you give, or 2 for most I've seen?

Is there anyone who 'mixes' pronouns for subject, object or possessive - "he / her" etc.? Because that would be really confusing. So why not just say "Pronoun: he"?