The Texas House just voted to discriminate against trans kids

[LetMyPeopleVote]

Link to tweet

[vercetti2021]

1. This state sucks

I feel for the kids. This shit is suppose to help them with an already difficult life. Texas fascist GOP wants them dead

[LetMyPeopleVote]

2. There was a well coordinated push made to fight this disgusting law

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[hunter]

3. How fucking pathetic is anyone so low they'd harass the most powerless among us?

If sports are not fun they are nothing.

[Doodley]

4. Coincidentally, there's a debate going on with my daughter and her friends in the last few days.

They are often up at 5am to train. My daughter has just won a scholarship. The self-discipline and determination that she has shown over the last few years is an inspiration, but they think a trans athlete will likely have an unfair advantage.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

8. What's the difference between a fair advent and an unfair advantage?

[madville]

12. It's a valid debate

Trans females that went through puberty with normal male hormones will have a huge advantage in female sports. It’s not fair to the biological females that deserve an equal playing field, the very reason women’s sports exist.

[Ms. Toad]

39. It's not.

See this post: https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15960637

Stop letting the extreme right wing use you to carry their water.

[Doodley]

40. Why assume the poster is in any way influenced by the right?

[Ms. Toad]

47. History.

Did you bother to read my post. This is 2004, reframed using transl lives instead of same gender marriage.

None of my liberal friends who fell for the right wing religious freedom argument for marriage=-lite were aware of the source of the idea. Because I always want to know what the opposition is up to, I heard it months earlier from the mouths of right wing radio hosts. They tested it out in its crudet forms there, in a place they could massage the message with very few liberal ears, so that when it emerged into the general population they had framed it to perfection to grab liberal supporters.

They are very good at framing their false narratives in a way that entices liberals to adopt them, without even recognizing where they came from.

[Doodley]

50. Insulting to suggest the poster can't form his own opinions on this matter, independent of being

manipulated by the right. Is that what you are suggesting?

[Ms. Toad]

51. I am suggesting the right is masterful in implanting ideas in liberal minds

Especially on LGBT issues, and that I have repeatedly seen members of DU (and personal friends) fall for it. I am not suggesting they are consciously adopting right wing propaganda - but I am sick to death of having to arguments which originated in right wing talk radio coming out of liberal mouths, so I'm going to point it out when I see it happening.

It happened with gay marriage, and it is happening big time on trans issues now.

[Doodley]

52. There is a big difference between being against gay marriage, which is being

against the idea that people have a right to love and be with whoever they choose and have that officially recognized, and believing that trans children and youths are likely to have a biological advantage in athletics. My daughter, who has worked tirelessly for an athletic scholarship believes that, and I can assure you that she has formed that view from observation and from her own experience, not from right-wing propaganda. It is beyond an insult to suggest that in anyway she supports the right or is influenced by the right and also that the poster you replied to is unable to come to his own opinion.

[Voltaire2]

55. So you are against biological advantages in athletics?

interesting.

[Ms. Toad]

68. There is not a difference.

That same stale argument was used to distinguish mixed race marriages from same gender marriages to keep us in our places (and Repbublicans in office)

As to your daughter working hard for her athletic scholarship - I hear the same thing from whites who feel threatened by blacks seeking equality. They are coming to take my stuff.

As to where it is coming from, unfortunately I know all too well exactly where these ideas are coming from. And my friends would have insisted the right wing theories they were spouting about marriage had absolutely no connection to right wing propaganda. But the "concern" they were expressing came from right wing radio talk shows to their lips. Often laundered through increasngly acceptable sources and edited to make it palatable. But if you don't think you or your daughter or the poster to whom I responded are susceptible to the right wing garbage that filters into mainstream society, I've got a frog heating up in a pot for you.

Have your daughter research how many trans wome there are, then how many of those are likely to be athletes. Then have her reasearch cis-female appearing athletes who have chromosomes other than XX, or who have high androgen levels, and the androgen range within XX females and XY males, and the higher androgen levels in women athletes as opposed to cis women, generally. It is really a non-issue that is being ginned up as an issue by right-wing jerks.

And, as I have said before, unfortunately far too many on our side of the aisle are carrying their water. My goal is to wake people up so we stop doing it - and I'm not going to debate the right of trans women to be treated as women, including in sports. Any more than I would debate the right of black people to be treated as people. I tried the debating route as to same gender marriage - and got spit on not only by the world but by DU. So now I'm taking a differnet tactic - screamng about what is going on from the rooftops. If I wake up a few people to resist right wing garbage into the mainstream, I will have accomplished my goal. Whether you believe it is insulting or not.

[Doodley]

71. I didn't know it was a contest, but you can't get more left than my family. We are Brits, and are

more left than the Labour Party. We are socialists through and through.

[Ms. Toad]

72. It's not a contest.

Very left people are still susceptible to right wing propaganda that is planted in the population at large. It is very carefully crafted so it is not obvious that it is right wing propaganda. It is especially effective when it is targeted at the rights of a mniority community because if you aren't part of that community, for the most part, you don't have the tools to sort out and reject the propaganda. That's why it is so effective. You don't even know you are being suckered.

As a member of the community they targeted in 2004, I can and did tell people on DU and among my very liberal friends, that it was right wing propaganda.

As a member of the broader community that includes trans individuals, and as someone who has more than the average number of trans friends (including a former sweetheart and a foster son) I am telling you that - however well intentioned you and your daughter are, and no matter how liberal you think you are - that you have adopted right wing propaganda on this matter.

I'm done sugar coating it and trying to coax people into changing their positions. I obviously have your attention - you clearly don't want to be seen as spouting right wing nonsense. Good. That was my intention. Go educate yourself on the matter. Research the reality - I've already given you clues as to where to start. Talk to trans friends. I am not, as a general rule, going to be the substantive educator on this matter. I'm just going to walk how my community was used for the same purpose in 2004 and make visible what is going on now.

[Sur Zobra]

53. I'm with you on this

Many Duers call me transphobic for my stance. It is unjust to our daughters who play high school and college sports to have to compete against biological males. We have title IX for just that purpose.

[madville]

69. Thank you

You have to have thick skin to side with the biological female athletes on this subject around here. It’s the same for the athletes that just want a level playing field, if they dare question it publicly they are shamed and harassed.

[cabot]

67. I agree with you

Trans females that go through male puberty have a strength advantage, a reach advantage...the lung capacity is greater.

[madville]

70. Correct

Even if they temporarily suppress their testosterone levels they still have greater muscle mass, bone density and lung capacity. The physical advantages don’t instantly vanish.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

27. I would consider it a failure as a parent if my child sided with this disgusting hate and bigotry.

Maybe you can weigh in and let them know, despite hundreds of on air segments by Fox News, their dedication and training is not at risk by this nonexistent problem.

Lawmakers can’t cite local examples of trans girls in sports

https://apnews.com/article/lawmakers-unable-to-cite-local-trans-girls-sports-914a982545e943ecc1e265e8c41042e7



Legislators in more than 20 states have introduced bills this year that would ban transgender girls from competing on girls’ sports teams in public high schools. Yet in almost every case, sponsors cannot cite a single instance in their own state or region where such participation has caused problems.

The Associated Press reached out to two dozen state lawmakers sponsoring such measures around the country as well as the conservative groups supporting them and found only a few times it’s been an issue among the hundreds of thousands of American teenagers who play high school sports.

In South Carolina, for example, Rep. Ashley Trantham said she knew of no transgender athletes competing in the state and was proposing a ban to prevent possible problems in the future. Otherwise, she said during a recent hearing, “the next generation of female athletes in South Carolina may not have a chance to excel.”

In Tennessee, House Speaker Cameron Sexton conceded there may not actually be transgender students now participating in middle and high school sports; he said a bill was necessary so the state could be “proactive.”

[Ms. Toad]

38. Thank you!

[Voltaire2]

57. this

the bigoted bullshit on this thread is disgusting.

[Ms. Toad]

37. Thank you for allowing the far right to once again use LGBT lives

to win elections. I'm so sick of our lives being used for political purposes for the right ** AND ** folks on my side of the aisle helping them do it.

This is exactly the same tactic which they used in 2004 to use same gender marriage to drive evangelical voters (who might otherwise have stayed home) to vote for constitutional amendments and other ballot issues - and - while they were there - elect George Bush as president.

They chose that issue, in part, becasue (1) they planted seeds about freedom of religion - and liberals fell for it and I had to spend enormous amounts of time to convincing otherwise intelligent liberals that it was a completely manufactured concern and (2) they knew many Democrats did not support LGBT rights - forcing candidates to remain silent, and the LGBT community to choose between fighting for our lives (by campaigning against marriage discrimination amendments) and protecting the Supreme Court from right wing packing (by vocally supporting candidates who opposed our right to marry).

Mark my words: There will be potty bills and anti-trans athletes on the ballot in 2022 as ballot initiatives or constitutional amendments, and Democrats (supported by people lke you and others on DU who have been suckered into another false narrative) will be forced to remain silent rather than oppose them, and the LGBT community will once again be forced to choose between ignoring issues vital to our lives and losing the house and senate.

Stop letting them use you to carry their water.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

5. Last Night's Passage of Anti-Trans, Anti-Child H.B. 25 Is New Low, Even For Republicans

Link to tweet

[fescuerescue]

6. Are they still allowed to play sports. Or is this a total ban?

I guess my question is, can they still play sports while using their original sex?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

7. Yes, but if they're living their gender, why would they want to?

Mack Beggs did it and everyone was mad about it. It’s a setup so trans kids can’t play.

[fescuerescue]

9. No. I get the problem

I'm just trying to understand how deep it goes.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. Got it. You're putting more thought into it than legislators are.

[pressbox69]

10. I don't know

Maybe people who live in oppressive states like Texas, Florida and Mississippi should think about moving away from those states. I don't know why so many tourists attractions remain in Florida. They should move to states that are people friendly and not firearm friendly. Let's all go to Disneyworld and then get slaughtered by a gun nut. No thanks.

[The Revolution]

17. Maybe that's the plan

Florida is the perennial battleground state, Texas is always inching toward that status. Maybe the real purpose of some of these laws is to drive out Democratic voters?

[madville]

13. Recent polling on the issue

Majorities in almost every category think sports participation should be based on gender at birth, not identity.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/350174/mixed-views-among-americans-transgender-issues.aspx

[url=https://ibb.co/3mNjrNc][img][/img][/url]

[Doodley]

16. And it isn't anti-trans to think that way.

[madville]

18. It's actually pro-women

But if they question the fairness of allowing physically stronger males that identify as female to compete against them, they are shouted down, shamed and accused of being anti-trans bigots.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

21. Fairness, hee.

?w=860

[madville]

22. That unique scenario gets into the HRT debate

If a trans man (female at birth) building muscle while on testosterone and then suppressing the hormone levels but retaining some of the strength is an unfair advantage in women’s sports.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

23. Okay, so where should Beggs have been competing?

[madville]

24. In an ideal world

In the women’s division but not previously have been taking testosterone. Disallowing previous use of testosterone should prevent a similar scenario in the future.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. Ideal for whom? He wasn't a woman.

Taking testosterone doesn't necessarily lead to muscle growth, either, especially when it comes to low-dose plus blockers. So what do you do then?

And I'll add: With Beggs on a low-dose testosterone -- which he did for health reasons, and was allowed to for health reasons -- I'll ask again, where should be have been competing in high school?

[madville]

26. Nowhere

Likely would not have been able to make the male team competing against biological males and had an unfair advantage in women’s competition due to the testosterone use.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

29. But we don't know he had an unfair advantage because of testosterone.

Likely would not have been able to make the male team competing against biological males

Should he have been allowed to try out, in this hypothetical world we're talking about? Should he have been allowed to attend practices, compete on the JV? In extracurriculars? An independent league?

Or should he have just been, as you decreed,

Nowhere

?

[madville]

31. The thousands of studies that show testosterone

“ But we don't know he had an unfair advantage because of testosterone.”


The thousands of studies that show testosterone increases muscle mass, bone density, and lung capacity aren’t enough?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. Much of what we think we know about testosterone is being revisited, especially as gender-affirming

treatments are more widely available and understood. It’s not nearly as cut and dried as people thought. It’s a lot more complicated than “take T, get ripped,” especially at low doses.

[madville]

34. There are peer-reviewed studies in the last few years that show small doses

Of testosterone significantly increase athletic performance in females, both in strength and endurance. Just a 5 or 10% gain in performance is huge in sports.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

45. So female to male trans people get a 5-10% boost? Starting at a female?

What exactly is your beef with female to male trans people playing sports competing with males? Sound to me like you are aware they start with a deficit and mostly end up on par or below. Big fucking deal - fire up Newsmax and Fox News to gin up the controversy.

And male to female are taking feminizing hormones. Again, what the problem?

I can’t believe I’m hearing this shit here. This is pure fucking bigotry aimed at trans kids. Over a ridiculously small subset of an already small subset.


I’m a gay man. My life growing up in the closet was no cake walk. But it was nothing compared to the difficulties the handful of trans people I’ve met experienced.

Now kids are coming out trans in high school and earlier. My neighbor’s gay high school age granddaughter has transitioning friends/classmates. Simply amazing.

These kids have a chance to have a somewhat normal existence. People who want to throw a monkey wrench into their progress disgust me.

[madville]

48. We were talking about a female taking testosterone and competing with females

You got it mixed up. This part of the discussion was about a biological female taking testosterone and then still having to compete with other biological females not on testosterone. It gives an unfair advantage, the science is proven.

I never stated any opposition to trans males competing with biological males, they are at a disadvantage biologically.

I do believe there should be a discussion about ensuring a level playing field in women’s sports. Post pubescent trans females will have physical advantages over biological females and that’s why the NCAA and Olympics have some controls in place. As it becomes more common I would expect those restrictions to evolve if it becomes apparent there are still unfair advantages.

[dsc]

54. the vast majority of females who wrestle have to wrestle males

I have taught in many districts and many states in my career and have literally never even heard of a school with a female wrestling team nor a high school league with a female wrestling season.

[Sur Zobra]

56. Muscle mass and lung capacity

Give trans females gives a huge advantage over biological females.

If you side with trans athletes over biological female athletes then you are anti…well, you and I know who are against

[WhiskeyGrinder]

60. "Huge advantage."

Which is why trans women are tearing it up in high school, college, the pros and the Olympics. Right?

If you side with trans athletes over biological female athletes then you are anti…well, you and I know who are against

It's not anti-woman (which, I'm guessing you were going to say?). Trans women are women. Women are women.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

44. How is that not TERF?

It is anti-trans. You might not like that label, but there's a way to avoid it.

[madville]

49. Don't care about labels

I just want there to be policies in place that maintain a fair playing field for women athletes. Allowing a biological male to simply declare their gender identity has changed and compete with women can’t be allowed.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

19. The percentage of respondents who think kids should play on teams that match their gender

identity is higher than the percentage of respondents who supported the legal recognition of gay marriage in 1996 (34 percent and 27 percent, respectively).

[Voltaire2]

58. Democrats: 55% support for gender identity

I forget, what is the name of this web site?

[madville]

61. So then in theory, 41% of this website should believe

That sports team participation should be determined by gender at birth, right?

[Voltaire2]

63. in theory this is a progressive democratic web site

or so I've been told.

[Initech]

14. Fucking Fox News did this to us. God damn them!

[Zeitghost]

15. If sports should not be split by sex

Then why not just have everyone play on the same team, regardless of sex or gender?

[madville]

20. Because with the physical advantages male athletes have

It would exclude most women. The argument isn’t splitting sports by gender, it’s about maintaining a fair and level playing field in women’s sports for biological women. Imagine 10 or 20 years from now if the majority of our women’s’ college or Olympic athletes are trans, that takes away opportunities for biological women.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

28. Lol "imagine"

Yeah, that and caravans of immigrants and taco trucks. Are you serious?

[madville]

33. You don't think that biological female athletes should have

A level playing field, especially when competing for college scholarships or a spot at the olympics? After the decades of hard fought gains to get equal funding and opportunity in college athletics, would it be fair to see those opportunities dwindle for biological female athletes because former men are now taking them due to their natural physical advantage? Seems like a step backwards for women.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

35. This is a made up "problem" meant to stir up right wing jag offs.

Lawmakers can’t cite local examples of trans girls in sports

https://apnews.com/article/lawmakers-unable-to-cite-local-trans-girls-sports-914a982545e943ecc1e265e8c41042e7



Legislators in more than 20 states have introduced bills this year that would ban transgender girls from competing on girls’ sports teams in public high schools. Yet in almost every case, sponsors cannot cite a single instance in their own state or region where such participation has caused problems.

The Associated Press reached out to two dozen state lawmakers sponsoring such measures around the country as well as the conservative groups supporting them and found only a few times it’s been an issue among the hundreds of thousands of American teenagers who play high school sports.

In South Carolina, for example, Rep. Ashley Trantham said she knew of no transgender athletes competing in the state and was proposing a ban to prevent possible problems in the future. Otherwise, she said during a recent hearing, “the next generation of female athletes in South Carolina may not have a chance to excel.”

In Tennessee, House Speaker Cameron Sexton conceded there may not actually be transgender students now participating in middle and high school sports; he said a bill was necessary so the state could be “proactive.”

[Doodley]

41. I am sorry, but according to some, you aren't allowed to hold that opinion without being accused of

representing the right wing.

[Voltaire2]

59. well when you espouse rightwing opinions, that is to be expected.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

36. .

Imagine 10 or 20 years from now if the majority of our women’s’ college or Olympic athletes are trans, that takes away opportunities for biological women.

Trans athletes have been allowed in the NCAA for more than 10 years and in the Olympics for almost 20. Your scary imaginations haven't happened.

[cabot]

65. To be fair

The requirement for gender reassignment surgery was ended in 2016. We don't know what will happen in the future.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

66. Gender confirmation or gender affirmation surgery.

[Happy Hoosier]

30. Reminder: Gender and Sex are not the same thing.

Gender is a social construct that reflects specific roles and social presentations. Sex is a category created to reflect the perception of certain biological markers. The more conservative elements of our culture like to think that biological sex is a cut and dried binary oppositional proposition, and for many people, it might appear to be so. But MANY people fall along a spectrum of biological markers and do not fit neatly into categories we create. Biology isn't always neat.

[Doodley]

42. I agree, so why, therefore, as gender is fluid, does it matter what team a child is on?

[Dr. Strange]

43. Sooooo....

do we do away with segregation on the basis of sex? Just have everyone competing against everyone else?

[JustAnotherGen]

46. They are monsters

They are absolute monsters. And I hope Virginia is paying attention. It CAN happen there.

Not worried about my state - no one even knows who Murphy's failed contender is.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

64. Transphobia is still an acceptable bigotry to many. It's heartbreaking in any context, but

especially infuriating when directed at children.