The Pissing Contest: Afghanistan's My Lai?

[DeathToTheOil]

Or just a case of boys being boys? < (That isn't a sarcastic question: Based on some posts I've seen here the past couple days, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone said, "Aw, just four Marines from Camp Lejeune lettin' off steam, LITERALLY HA-HA!&quot

[RZM]

1. Huh?

US government sources list 347 dead in the My Lai killings. Vietnamese sources say about 500.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai

How is that comparable to the story about what happened to these bodies in Afghanistan?

[DeathToTheOil]

5. There was no video of My Lai

Think that isn't hugely important in today's 24/7 news cycle?

[RZM]

6. If you're talking about the impact on world opinion, perhaps

But it seemed to me you were equating what happened here with the deaths of 347 Vietnamese villagers. I don't think that comparison works at all.

[karynnj]

10. I was in college in the late 1960s and early 1970s - and we did not need video

to know how completely immoral and unethical the actions were here. Yet, at the time, there was enough hatred of the Vietnamese that Calley got a welcome home day when he left prison and returned to Georgia - declared by Governor Jimmy Carter. (Now, you could argue that as a LT, he was likely a scapegoat for people higher up who ended up not prosecuted, but that does not in any way make him a hero.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

13. Carter did that? Thanks for the information.

[karynnj]

15. I was rather shocked to learn that - here on DU, in fact

I actually was glad I didn't know it in the late 1970s. As it was, I would have preferred Anderson in 1980, but as he was really just a spoiler I voted for Carter.

I think that Carter is a good man, but it does reflect how hostile parts of the country were to believing that any US troops did anything wrong. (Carter was neutral in 2004 - and as he hated Ted Kennedy (Kerry's supporter and long time ally), it would seem if he still felt as he did in the 1970s, he likely would have endorsed Dean or Edwards. )

[AnotherMcIntosh]

16. While I also voted for Carter, I was surprised that he - and not Reagan - began de-regulation.

Some may be skeptical, but it's in the history books and on the web.

I, too, have thought that he was basically a good man who made a serious effort to achieve peace in the Middle-East, who ran an honest government, who had an absence of animosity towards ordinary Americans, and showed his committment to certain values after leaving office while continuing to try to help the poor.

I do wish, however, that he hadn't begun the de-regulation process. I also wish that he would have put a few more Republicans in prison.

[Enrique]

2. no, there was a much worse case

the small group of soldiers who killed Afghan civilians for sport and took fingers as trophies is the worst atrocity I've heard of so far in the war.

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. Taliban say Marines urinating tape won't hurt talks

A video showing what appears to be American forces urinating on dead Taliban fighters prompted anger in Afghanistan and promises of a U.S. investigation on Thursday, but the insurgent group said it would not harm nascent efforts to broker peace talks.
...
Despite concerns when the video first emerged that it would not help his efforts to build confidence among the warring parties, a Taliban spokesman said although the images were shocking, the tape would not affect talks or a mooted prisoner release.

"We know that our country is occupied . . . . This is not a political process, so the video will not harm our talks and prisoner exchange because they are at the preliminary stage."

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/canada-in-afghanistan/Afghan+Taliban+marine+abuse+tape+harm+talks/5984229/story.html

[AnotherMcIntosh]

12. Well, if they interviewed all of the members of the Taliban, then there's no problem.

[quinnox]

7. I don't try and judge marines in a war combat zone

sitting thousands of miles away in what can seem like a paradise compared to the horrors of war.

Of course what they did was wrong, and it has already been said they will be held accountable for their actions.
But what if they had just lost a couple of their fellow marines/friends the day before to an IED bomb?
Then the whole situation changes a bit, I think. It doesn't make it right, but more understandable. Until we hear the whole story things are not totally clear.

[arcane1]

8. That goes for the Afghanistan fighters as well n/t

[gratuitous]

14. No, see, that's different

Because the Afghan fighters aren't exceptionally exceptional like our star-spangled, red white and blue heroes.

[karynnj]

11. No matter what happened the days before, it can not justify it

Every culture I can think of calls for respect in dealing with the bodies of the dead - though the culturally appropriate steps differ. At this point those men were dead and were no threat. Not to mention, how does this make what happened to their own peopel any better. While having no impact on the dead, the offense is against the people who love them. Though logically irrational, this action magnifies the pain they feel. Imagine the anger here, if this happened to US soldiers. To those loved ones, the Taliban soldiers who died are real people, who gave all they had to their country. Obviously, I disagree with everything the Taliban want to do to Afghanistan, but this action just inflames the whole situation.

I think Panetta and maybe even Obama need to condemn this.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

17. You can judge the quality and involvement of the leaders in DC who did not provide the

training and leadership to prevent this from happening.

In the absence of active leadership, there is a break-down of discipline.

Was this, or anything like it, unpredictible? Can the military brass be excused on this basis? The military trains people to be willing killers. For those on the ground, killing someone is up close and personal. It requires a certain mindset. A certain unhesitating meanness or indifference to the death. But discipline is needed to acheive the military goals. Military leaders who let troops do whatever they want, or being indifferent to what they are doing or capable of doing, is an abdication of their responsibility.

Those in the chain of command should be punished.

[LanternWaste]

21. I imagine that there are indeed standards...

I imagine that there are indeed standards set in place and given regard, whether one is in combat or no; e.g., the Geneva Conventions.







"Of course what they did was wrong" "I don't try and judge" Odd contrast....

[karynnj]

9. No - it might be more like Afghanistan's Abu Ghraib

It seriously does not rise to the level of My Lai, where a village of people were systematically murdered. That said, like Abu Ghraib is completely disgusting, and shows values that we would not want associated with the US. All you have to do is turn it around and imagine the reaction here if the corpses were American and the soldiers were Taliban.

[tskiens]

18. information

I offer additional information of the My Lai incident and suggest that it should not be compared to anything but My Lai. If you read and watch the links on this page you will be an expert about My Lai within about 50 hours. http://www.buffgrunt.com/history/mylai.html

[Donald Ian Rankin]

19. Not even close in either direction.

Boys being boys << four soldiers urinating on corpses of enemy soldiers << army unit massacring entire civilian village.

[99Forever]

20. Hundreds of BILLION$ of our tax dollar$ spent..

.. every year, turning our perfectly normal young people into psychopathic killers, instead of using that same money to improve our Nation at home, and I should be outraged when they act like psychopaths?

I'm sorry, I don't get it.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

22. This may comparable to Abu Graib, but not to My Lai

The four (or five, since someone was recording it) Marines were, indeed, letting off steam. In the age of YouTube, it'll bite them now, and long into the future.

Obviously, this sort of thing never happened before, because we don't have the video.

The Marine brass will destroy these guys, partly because there was a crime, and partly because of all the publicity.

My Lai was worse, because of the killing, and it was made famous because another group of GI's stopped it and reported it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Only in the sense that it displays the contempt we hold for the people we're there to "help".