Should guns be banned from movies / TV / etc?

[Coventina]

Just wondering what DU as a group would think.

Those that want to blame Baldwin for the incident, I think the only way that argument holds water is if there is just a blanket ban on guns in shows.

If I was an actor, I wouldn't want to become a gun expert in order to use a gun in a scripted show.

If everyone who holds a gun in production has to be a gun expert, maybe just ban guns?

I mean, if you point a gun at someone, the training says, "Only if you want them dead."

Well, obviously that's not true for acting, right?

Maybe just ban guns and be done with it.



on edit: If it's not clear, I do NOT blame Baldwin. And it would take a LOT to convince me otherwise.

[EX500rider]

1. If a stunt goes wrong and a stunt driver dies should we ban car scenes? nt

[Coventina]

2. Excellent point. n/t

[taxi]

5. One cannot expect a stunt driver to know anything about cars. nt

[gay texan]

11. "Bullitt" would be pretty bland n/t

[WarGamer]

3. It's time for real "Movie guns"

A gun that looks identical to a real one BUT...

When you pull the trigger a CO2 cartridge actuates the slide to go back then forward again, like a real pistol... that gives it a kick. Then have the pistol eject brass when it does this. Add muzzle flash through CG! and sound in editing.

Pretty damn easy and considering all the money in H-wood it's a no brainer. No need to bring real guns on set.

[Coventina]

4. Make sense to me! n/t

[NickB79]

16. Already available and cheap

Airsoft and pellet guns have done this for years.

[ProfessorGAC]

26. Agreed!

I posted in another thread about using CGI & Foley work for the sound.
In fact, a good machinist could design make the "prop" gun mechanism all springs & tiny hydraulics, so the gun action and cartridge ejection would require zero propellant of any type.
The actors, of course, would need to learn to simulate the "kick" in a consistent action. (They already exaggerate it, as dummy loads are far lower than actual round loads, and the lack of mass in the barrel increases the time to pressure zero. Think Dirty Harry of the .44 mag. Eastwood had to "fake" the kick. And, he & Don Siegel were big into excessive retort effects, so the sound was all Foley, 50 years ago. Sergio Leone started that trend in his westerns.)
Doing all this brings the accident risk to nearly zero.

[Kaleva]

6. They use stunt people who do the dangerous stuff.

These people are highly trained. Maybe do the same for a gun scene.

And one doesn't need to be an "expert" to know the basic safety rules when handling a gun.

I can safely handle an M1911 .45 cal. but not being an expert, I can't disassemble and reassemble with my eyes closed.

[Coventina]

8. Basic safety rules say never point a gun at anyone.

[Kaleva]

10. The 4 universal rules of gun safety

Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle point at anything that you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have made the decision to shoot.
Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

[LisaL]

13. On the movie set?

It's not for real-at least it's not supposed to be.

[Kaleva]

17. If it's a real gun, the location of the weapon doesn't matter. The rules apply.

[LisaL]

23. The actor isn't shooting the gun because he wants to destroy someone.

NT

[Kaleva]

30. Here are the safety rules set forth by Industry Wide Labor-Management Safety Committee

"BLANKS CAN KILL. TREAT ALL FIREARMS AS THOUGH THEY ARE LOADED.
"LIVE AMMUNITION" IS NEVER TO BE USED NOR BROUGHT ONTO ANY STUDIO
LOT OR STAGE."

https://www.csatf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/01FIREARMS.pdf

[LisaL]

32. Well clearly actual bullets shouldn't have been used.

TMZ claims the guns used in the movie were also used for target practice with actual bullets.
If true this was a really unsafe situation.

[Kaleva]

33. Even if the gun was loaded with blanks or empty it should be handled like it's loaded with real ammo

[WarGamer]

9. 1911's not the easiest... you need a tool.

[Kaleva]

14. My bad. I was talking about field stripping an M1911. Not a complete disassembly.

One doesn't need any tools to field strip.

I just clearly showed I'm no expert.

[packman]

7. Yah, they should be banned-but never will happen

Can't understand why any type of gunpowder/guns are used in movies what with the shit they can do with special effects.

[BlueTsunami2018]

12. No.

Accidents unfortunately happen on rare occasions.

[Kaleva]

15. Such as?

Maybe you are talking about instances where inherent design flaws or manufacturers defects played a role?

[Crunchy Frog]

18. I think they should stop using real guns in filming.

There's absolutely no reason for it in this day and age, and the risks are obviously too high.

They should be able to use realistic looking props, and put in shooting effects in post production.

[IcyPeas]

40. Right! Why can't they add sound effects?

[Calista241]

19. What other rules would some moral authority arbitrarily apply?

No car chases? No crimes? No killing any character of any kind for any reason? No nudity?

[sarisataka]

25. Sounds like

The Hallmark Channel

[Doodley]

28. This is about the safety of the crew and cast, not imposing moral authority.

[Calista241]

55. There's lots of dangerous shit that happens all the time for cast and crew.

Tom Cruise fucking held onto the outside of a military cargo plane while it fucking took off in MI5. He was anchored to the plane by a single cable.

All those Fast & Furious movies, they probably can't count how many cars they blew up, crashed, or drove off a cliff. Vast majority of them had cast and crew in and around them at all times while that was happening.

And it's not just guy movies, Kate Winslet almost drowned while filming Titanic.

[Doodley]

58. So? I don't understand the point. Are these reasons not to reduce the dangers of using real guns

in filmmaking?

[LeftInTX]

59. Many more people die of accidents on sets than guns

This is the second gun death since 1990.
Since 1990, 43 people have died from accidents/stunts and props on sets.
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/22/1048295916/props-gun-death-injuries-rust-movie-set-rare

[Doodley]

63. Every life matters. This cinematographer would be alive if live guns had been banned in film.

Why would you argue against that?

[Calista241]

60. If you're going to take guns out of filmmaking in the name of safety

Why can’t someone else insist on other stuff being taken out in the name of safety.

[Doodley]

62. There is no reason why they can't insist on anything they like.

[brooklynite]

20. Of course not.

[imavoter]

21. As one who knows how to handle a gun

And the prop person is supposed to be a gun expert...

I have no clue why you would even bring real ammo on set?????

There has to be something that was missed.
If there is a protocol, someone screwed up obviously.

[LisaL]

22. Apparently the guns were also being used for target practice.

TMZ claims target practice was done with actual bullets. If so, how irresponsible.

[SheltieLover]

27. This is what has been troubling me

And, as the expert Rachel had on last night stated, from the difference in length between a blank (without the projectile), it would be very difficult to confuse a blank & real round of ammo.

I'm not blaming Mr. Baldwin, but I don't care who handed me a gun of any type for any reason, the 1st thing I would do is check the chambr &, in his case where blanks were presumed the rounds.

One does not need to be an expert to check the chamber & the bullets.

With all the special effects, why use real guns at all in productions?

[Doodley]

24. Yes. You don't need guns that can kill on a movie set. Use toy guns only. Add sound effects later.

[tritsofme]

29. Banned by who? The First Amendment is a thing.

[Crunchy Frog]

45. By whatever organization sets safety standards.

It wouldn't have to be a legal ban. Just a standard that the industry agrees to.

[eShirl]

49. the Unions can insist on it

[sarcasmo]

31. The set should have had Union workers.

[BootinUp]

34. regulated not banned nt

[Tarc]

35. No, this is a silly question

The use of prop guns on-set comes with a lot of stringent rules for how it should be done, hundreds of films and shows per year all run perfectly fine, there's no need to come unglued over a particular tragedy and blow it all up.

When rehearsing, actors have dummy guns, there's no firing mechanism at all. Right before the cameras roll, a prop master comes out and swaps them for "live" guns; they can "fire", but it is just blanks. As soon as "cut!" is called, the guns are gathered and stored. Somewhere on the set of this film, something went horribly wrong. They'll figure it out and the repercussions on whoever is responsible will be severe, career-ending, and should bring jail-time.

The only way this could ever be Baldwin's fault is if he pulled some sort of dick-swinging "I'm famous, I do what I want" and broke the protocols himself somehow. Given how distraught he appears in the aftermath, IMO the chances of this are ridiculously near-nonexistent.

[Maru Kitteh]

36. Guns capable of firing live ammunition should be banned, imo.

[FakeNoose]

39. This! They don't need to make a loud bang on the set while filming

Actors can use a toy gun with no ammo (blanks or otherwise) and the "bang" sound can be added during the editing stage. That's actually what they have been doing for quite awhile. I'm not sure why this movie set didn't do that.

[IcyPeas]

41. Agree. They do amazing sound effects these days.

[USALiberal]

37. Silly! Nt

[Devil Child]

38. No n/t

[ForgedCrank]

42. Of course not.

That would be a completely ridiculous response to this tragedy. There are already rules in place that obviously weren't followed by someone.

[Dial H For Hero]

43. Certainly not.

[LeftInTX]

44. It's been over 28 years since a gun killed someone on a movie set

There are numerous set accidents each year.
I hate guns, but I think a movie set is one of the safest places when it comes to guns. Their track record probably better than the military, although it's an apples and oranges comparison.

There will be stricter rules after this. Young people weren't around for Brandon Lee and forgot how dangerous it can be.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_and_television_accidents

The worst one in my memory was The Twilight Zone movie....Actor Vic Morrow and a child were decapitated..another child was also killed....

[Kaleva]

46. There are reports of unintended firearm discharges on the set.

"ALBUQUERQUE — There were at least two accidental gun discharges on the set of an Alec Baldwin movie being filmed in New Mexico days before he fatally shot the cinematographer, according to three former members of the film’s crew.

The discharges occurred on Oct. 16, the former crew members said, prompting a complaint to a supervisor about the safety practices on the set, which was outside Santa Fe. The crew members, who asked not to be named out of fear that their future employment in the industry could be affected, were among several workers who quit, just hours before the fatal shooting, over complaints about unpaid work and working conditions on the production."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/23/us/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting.html

[blogslug]

47. I agree with Adam Conover

Link to tweet

Adam Conover
@adamconover

Essential thread; exactly right. This time a film worker was killed by a gun. Last time, it was a train. Next time it could be a stunt or a fall off a jib. The solution is not to ban a prop. The solution is for our employers to stop prioritizing speed and profit over human lives.

John Bickerstaff
@Bitterstaff

Look. It’s not guns. It’s not blanks vs. inoperable. It’s not banning one piece of equipment. There are so many things on set that can kill you if operated by unqualified or negligent crew in an environment where everyone is overworked and underpaid, and sensibility is punished

[BootinUp]

56. this is exactly right. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

48. Using actual guns isn't required; John Wick's guns are all green-screened (n/t)

[Captain Stern]

50. No. That would be an overreaction.

There are procedures in place to prevent things like the Baldwin incident from happening.

Either the procedures were correctly followed, or they were not correctly followed.

If the procedures weren't correctly followed, then changing the procedures wouldn't have made any difference.

If the procedures were correctly followed, then the procedures should be changed.

There's no more need to ban guns from movies or tv than there is to ban movies and tv altogether.

[luv2fly]

51. Are people blaming Baldwin?

I haven't seen it yet but it won't surprise me. What I have seen is a lack of empathy for him, somehow concluding that the pain of the deceased woman's family is somehow justifiably greater. Such bullshit... it's not a contest.

[madville]

52. If reports are true that it was his production company

Producing the movie and they went cheap by using non-Union prop masters or none at all, then yes, he does bear some responsibility. We’ll see how the eventual lawsuits turn out.

[LeftInTX]

57. If an extra in the film was handling the gun, it would not be the extra's fault

But since Alec also owns the production company, he will probably be liable (civil liability)

Alec is very unlikely to be criminally liable. The sheriff seems to think that it is was a horrible accident.

The company will be sued in civil court.

[marie999]

61. It is the fault of the person holding the weapon. All weapons are loaded until they are checked.

Someone hands you a weapon you a going to shoot and says it is not loaded, you better check to make sure it is unloaded.

[Paladin]

53. Of course not. (nt)

[ananda]

54. Guns with any kind of live ammo or blanks.. yes.

Fake guns, ok.

[Doodley]

64. Absolutely. There was no reason for this incident to happen. No reason for death and injury.

[ananda]

66. It was a crazy, dysfunctional set.

The people handling guns were immature, poorly trained,
and incompetent.

The competent people either wouldn't work there or left
the job because of the way the production was being
handled.

[11 Bravo]

65. No.