Conservative caller thought she had a 'gotcha' question on abortion for Elie Mystal. She was wrong

[multigraincracker]

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/10/26/2060408/-Conservative-caller-thought-she-had-a-gotcha-question-on-abortion-for-Elie-Mystal-She-was-wrong

But Mystal is not done, explaining that the caller can also check into the 14th Amendment, which guarantees all citizens of the United States equal rights under the Equal Protection Clause, and that also specifically includes people who can get pregnant having the exact same rights as people who cannot. “Now if they [men] have complete reproductive control over the system over the entire nine-month period, why can't the woman?”

Mystal then begins to circle the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, explaining that the right to privacy is an enormous one. While the Constitution doesn’t explicitly say the words “right to privacy,” the implication is there, as none of the other rights make much sense without that right. Mystal points out that the Ninth Amendment makes it clear that not all rights are written down, even though they are “retained by the people.”



Mystal goes on to say that if none of these work for the caller, there is always “the 13th Amendment, which says very clearly that involuntary labor cannot be forced by the government. If you want to tell me that a person who is pregnant can be forced, against her will, to do that labor for free, I’m going to tell you that is a point and click violation of the 13th amendment. So, Fourth, 14th, Ninth, and 13th.”

What a great response.

[Sherman A1]

1. K&R

[cstanleytech]

2. People that want to take the right away of a women to carry a fetus to term or not are assholes.

What the whole abortion issue comes down to is choice after all and any women should have the right to make her own choice as she is the one that has to live with whatever choice she makes if she becomes pregnant.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

4. Abortion is part of the Polarization for Profit machine that favors R politicians and Facebook. nt

[MiHale]

3. KnR...nt

[PoliticAverse]

5. "involuntary labor cannot be forced by the government." - unless it is child support, apparently...

(men have been jailed for refusing to take jobs to pay child support).

If all Mystal's arguments are valid, then why didn't the court adopt them? In his explanation Mystal notes that Roe vs Wade only protects the right to abortion until viability (26 weeks). If his other arguments were accepted by the court it would have been protected until birth.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

7. Nope. Fathering a child is a responsibility too, an obligation, not involuntary

... not unless the woman lied about birth control (rare) or birth control failed (them's the breaks, and it is a risk the man voluntarily undertakes).

Teaching abstinence is no substitute for teaching about birth control devices and medications. However, teaching abstinence as an option is very important. If men want to have fun, they have to also take on the responsibilities. If they don't want any risk of responsibility, then abstinence is the most surefire option.

So fathering a child is not involuntary labour, even when it means taking a job to pay child support.

[PoliticAverse]

8. By that argument if abortion were illegal and a woman voluntarily had sex...

carrying a child to term would be a responsibility voluntarily taken as well.

> If they don't want any risk of responsibility, then abstinence is the most surefire option.

Indeed.

[hunter]

25. Anyone who uses the lame excuse "she lied about birth control!" should be neutered...

... possibly in that instant with a rusty knife.

[multigraincracker]

33. Neutering no longer workers.

Hormone replacement does the same thing as gonads. Amputation works.

[plimsoll]

27. Should men tell their partner that they don't intend to pay child support.

Seems like otherwise, the man is failing to get consent.

[multigraincracker]

34. I'm afraid it is way to easy, in the moment to

lie for sex. We need laws that hold men responsible for all cost of the delivery, cost of education and physical care for the life of the offspring. Make those laws expensive for sexual urges to see results. It's her body, it should be his wallet.

[bucolic_frolic]

6. That's how to intellectually defeat these Nazis, hand-to-hand, manno-a-manno, point by point

Mystal is a cut above. I hear some of the legal arguments made in court, I say, HOW can they do this, WHAT are they thinking? And they FAIL to make solid points. These are solid point, unassailable, that he is making.

Or maybe they don't make solid points because they are afraid. If the courts ever ignored a solid point, it's precedent. It could erode the whole of such arguments. Which is why I'm not a lawyer.

[Bettie]

9. Elie seems to be pretty much

immune to gotcha questions.

[oldsoftie]

10. The response ignores the pro lifers opinion of the human life.

Not that i'm agreeing with them, but their whole point is that there is no right to end a life, which THEY say begins at conception. Its not simply the right to do with your body as you choose, when another life is involved.
Which always made me wonder why these people are also against any pills that prevent a fetus from even STARTING to begin with.
And again for those who knee jerk, I do not agree with those wanting to stop all abortions, i'm just explaining why this story is meaningless to the anti abortion people. I live in the midst of them every day!

[SunSeeker]

13. The government imposing anti-abortionists' religious views on us all violates the 1st Am.

The whole life begins at conception is a religious tenet. The 1st Amendment says government shall not respect an establishment of religion:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

[oldsoftie]

21. But science does tell us that it is true without religion.

It is "alive" as soon as its able to grow. Cells are "alive". The religious nuts certainly wield their religion as a hammer, but they could have the same argument without it.
But there is still a massive difference between 16 cells and something that could survive outside the mother. And thats where the nutjobs lose their objectivity.
Most laws already protect viable fetuses.
And as i mentioned before, why do they also oppose the "morning after" pill, and similar medications, which would prevent the "life" from beginning at all? Seems like they'd be all FOR it; because that would likely reduce the number of abortions by a good bit. But no, they HAVE to hit us over the head with their religion at that point. I think with many its just a badge to wear on their sleeve for all to see. "Look at ME! "
Yet they have no problem backing a serial adulterer for President....
I think THAT is also frowned upon in the Bible.

[SunSeeker]

23. Science does not say it is a baby at conception.

There is a big difference between cells that are alive, and a fetus and a baby.

What so stupid is that the Bible says life begins at "first breath," yet so many Christians believe life begins at conception.

[multigraincracker]

15. The Bible is pretty clear, except for one unclear verse, life

begins with the first breath."The breath of life" was given to the guy formed from clay.

[oldsoftie]

19. Thats the thing about the Bible; many verses say different things

And its a whole different rabbit hole we can go down!

[keithbvadu2]

35. The Bible has the answer(s).

The Bible has the answer(s).

Just cherry pick the passages that support your desired outcome, no matter how you have to (mis)interpret it.

[multigraincracker]

38. A great book by a great man on this subject.

Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why
by Bart D. Ehrman

For almost 1,500 years, the New Testament manuscripts were copied by hand––and mistakes and intentional changes abound in the competing manuscript versions. Religious and biblical scholar Bart Ehrman makes the provocative case that many of our widely held beliefs concerning the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, and the divine origins of the Bible itself are the results of bo ...more
GET A COPY
Kindle Store $12.99 AmazonStores ▾Librarie

Every time the story was copied, slight to major changes were made to the Bible. Up until the invention of the printing press. Then we had all of the different versions go to into print.

[oldsoftie]

40. Yep. We see it EVERY day. nt

[calimary]

20. And I bet those "pro-lifers" all support capital punishment.

Last edited Fri Oct 29, 2021, 02:09 PM - Edit history (1)

AND they probably scoff at the climate crisis - which is accelerating and thereby threatening ALL life on this planet. And they’re very likely first in line to vote against funding to support child care for working moms and single heads of households. And I’d expect them to dismiss the pleas of the poor and homeless and hungry because all those folks are just “lazy moochers.”

[keithbvadu2]

37. Pro-life to conservatives/republicans is a myth.

Republicans are in favor of killing living babies and have done so.

Pro-life to conservatives/republicans is a myth.

The supposed pro-lifers cared naught when the state of Texas (republican gov, republican Prez) deliberately killed living baby Sun Hudson against the mother's wishes because he was an inconvenience to the state.

It is not a matter of life to the supposed pro-lifers.

It is a matter of control.

[calimary]

39. Exactly.

[SunSeeker]

11. Love me some Elie Mystal!

[Walleye]

12. IMO, it's actually the fetus that has no constitutional protections.

According to the constitution a US citizen is born in the United States, the operative word being born

[multigraincracker]

16. Lots of that, when you can get a drivers license on your 16 birthday.

Vote after 18th birthday. Drink on 21st birthday. Sign up for draft on 18th birthday.
Good point.

IF they make abortion illegal, have they just lowered the age for collecting SS and MC?

[Karma13612]

17. Can you imagine if everyone who is retired

Right now, demanded to be paid the extra 9 months of SS retirement benefits, with interest???

That would be quite a sum. And I could certainly use it!!!!!

Yea, that one won’t fly, but I would like to see them sweat!

And when they dry off their wet brow, tell them to quit with the whole BS “life begins at conception” nonsense.

[SunSeeker]

14. He forgot to mention the 1st Amendment, which requires separation of church and state.

The government imposing anti-abortionists' religious views on us all violates the 1st Amendment.

The whole life begins at conception is a religious tenet. The 1st Amendment says government shall not respect an establishment of religion:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

[RAB910]

18. In the end the vast majority of the forced birther crowd

simply wants to misuse the power of the government to force their radical religious beliefs down everyone else's throats.

[roamer65]

22. It isn't a human being until it takes its first breath of atmosphere.

Until then it is still part of the mother and it’s HER decision.

[patphil]

24. That first breath is when the spirit connects with the body.

[NHvet]

26. Nope..wrong wrong wrong!

So now us atheists have to believe in that too?! Stop already, go and worship what ever you wish, in the comfort of your home or church but don't impart your fantasy thoughts the rest of us. Until the fetus can live outside the womb, the fetus is nothing without the female host PERIOD. No Mama no life!

[patphil]

29. What is with you?

I didn't attack your belief, I merely told you mine.
As an atheist you can believe what you want. I don't care, and I would certainly not attack you for your beliefs.
But, I expect you to respect my beliefs.
Oh, and by the way, the fetus does live outside the womb...it's called birth.
And that first breath after the separation from the Mama is when the connection to spirit is made.
You need to dial back the anger a bit.

[PatrickforB]

28. This was a really good post.

These are very solid arguments.

But we have to remember there is lots and lots of misogyny in the healthcare and justice systems both. My wife was just reading an article to me about how men and women are treated substantially differently with pain medications for various medical procedures - women seem to be expected to just be quiet and bear the pain, while men are coddled with plenty of anesthetic during the procedure, and plenty of pain meds for the recovery period.

I'm unabashedly pro abortion, because men too often get off scot free after ejaculating irresponsibly. I can remember an old sit-com from the 80s where the guy said that men have the urge and women have the answer, which is generally true well into adulthood, but if the woman answers the guy's 'urge' and gets pregnant, he better bloody well accept the responsibility for supporting that child and actually manning up and being a father. Because that kid didn't ask to be conceived, or born, and for the man just to skate away leaving the woman responsible for raising and supporting that kid while at the same time demanding abortion be illegal is monstrous.

[AllaN01Bear]

30. i see what they did there .:):):). the rs dont see it .

[Roy Rolling]

31. How Fucking Difficult is This?

I personally oppose abortion as a method of birth control, and everyone has the right to their opinion.

But we don’t have a right to our own laws and facts. Abortion is legal under the laws and Constitution of the United States. Abortions are a fraction of what they were in 1973 through an enlightened and scientific system.

The issue isn’t about abortion, it’s about giving radical religious zealots the levers of power to the U.S. Government. They need to stay in their snake-handling and religious lane and stay out of the laws of government lane.

[Farmer-Rick]

32. The crime of the forced birth crowd is the loss of bodily autonomy

We no longer live in the middle ages. Science and medicine has advanced so that people freely undergo operations to look one way or another. And for the most part these operations are safe and successful. It has also advanced so that life saving organs can be transplanted with successful outcomes. We have developed birth control, penis and abortion pills. We are never going to stop any of those procedures or the use of those pills. We have to accept they are out there and they are not going to go away.

You, I and everyone should be able to do with our own bodies what we want. I should not be forced to give up my kidney to a rich man so he can live. You should not be forced to give blood to save your neighbor's child. Your daughter should not be forced to give up bone morrow to keep you alive. Individuals own their own bodies and can do what they want with them. Except it seems if a human embryo or fetus is involved. The unborn have extra special rights to the body they are using according to Texas and judge Amy slave/wife on the supreme court.

In the case of a human fetus or embryo, according to religious idiots and right wing crazies, they get Special Rights. The embryo gets to use a woman's body for 9 months even if the woman does NOT agree to it using her body. Without consent, that woman is forced to allow the embryo to grow inside of her.

And there is the crime. A woman should make the decision over her own body. Men make the decisions over their bodies. Why shouldn't women be granted the same rights to the use of their organs and bodies as men do?

You can't force a man to give up one of his kidneys to ensure the life of his neighbor but sanctimonious fools, who believe in magical beings in the sky, are forcing woman to give up their bodily autonomy.

[keithbvadu2]

36. When arguing the Constitution on social media:

When arguing the Constitution on social media:

1. Whatever is not specifically allowed must be forbidden. IF this logic supports your premise.

2. Whatever is not specifically forbidden must be allowed. IF this logic supports your premise.