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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI think someone has to finally say this:
When I was a kid in the 50s and 60s, there was a tacit assumption that the powers that be would avoid major wars including nuclear war because of the vast number of dead people associated with such. We know now that the Republicans dont care one whit about the lives or deaths of people, including many people. They have allowed the deaths of over 700,000 people To date and would counsel the deaths of millions more to reach their objectives, Whatever the hell they may be
Those of us who remember Fail Safe, the film and the book, would recall the character played by Walter Matthau who was willing to take us into full-blown nuclear conflict and kill billions of people to achieve his ends given That we had already launched an accidental attack upon the Soviet Union.. He was thought by the President, played by no less than Henry Fonda, to be insane. Matthau played this perfectly and I believe its a prototype for todays GOP fanatic. Anyway, I think that there is no limit to the number of deaths this crowd will tolerate in order to achieve their goals, whatever they may be. The reason I say that, is that I dont think we really fully understand what their goals are. this whole business is so beyond bizarre, and incompetently fascist, that I am in a certain sense speechless.
I never thought I would live long enough to see Americans be utterly conscienceless and without redemption. But here we are, and believe me, there is nothing, repeat nothing, that is beneath these peoples Abilities to disrupt and destroy. Make no mistake, make no assumptions, if 100 million people had to die that would be justified and OK with these people, they are malignant narcissists and sociopaths. They could easily justify the annihilation of a continent, including half of hours. Do you recall that it was OK with many of them if people died from Covid as long as it was largely in blue states? This is but the tip of the iceberg and you must understand that if somebody suggested rounding liberals up and putting them in camps to re-educate us, it would be a medium double digit percentage of Americans who would be happy to go along with this. It would not take much convincing For them to start building execution camps for the hard line liberals who, in their opinion must be purged from the civilization. If you think this is an extreme, youre underestimating their evil.
CrispyQ
(36,231 posts)This:
This is but the tip of the iceberg and you must understand that if somebody suggested rounding liberals up and putting them in camps to re-educate us, it would be a medium double digit percentage of Americans who would be happy to go along with this. It would not take much convincing For them to start building execution camps for the hard line liberals who, in their opinion must be purged from the civilization. If you think this is an extreme, youre underestimating their evil.
I also spent my youth in those decades and am actually flabbergasted at the ongoing disregard for human life that seems to exist in today's society... I would never have thought or believed it could happen.. But this once great country has slid down that rabbit hole and I see no real way back. A lot of people died to maintain our democracy(including my father) and it seem that we are sliding into the historical annals as the "late great".
wnylib
(21,146 posts)large or small, many (if not most) are only as good as their leader. There are many human beings without a moral compass of their own. They will rise to great heights under a good leader or fall to great depths with a bad one.
homegirl
(1,419 posts)Sometimes, when watching Congress in action, I cant decide whether to laugh, cry, or check myself into an insane asylum.
Not all lawmakers are political hacks, quacks, and corporate toadies but that contingent does seem to dominate. Most infuriating is that while purporting to represent the people, Congress routinely does what the American majority does not want done and fails to do what people do want. Take a peek at the cuts Congress is making to Joe Bidens landmark infrastructure proposals.
This is a monumental, long-overdue undertaking to reinvest in Americas physical house and social underpinnings (everything from roads and broadband networks to child care and paid family leave). The package would deliver real, tangible benefits across our nation, especially for low- and middle-income families, so it is enormously popular. Yet, when the first half of the plan recently came to a vote in the House, Republicans turned it into a partisan mudwrestling show, loudly voting NO on such obvious needs as fixing decrepit bridges, providing clean tap water in every community, and opening pre-school education programs to all three- and four-year-olds.
Cynical Republican gamesmanship aside, even more infuriating is the clique of self-described moderate Democrats who pose as champions of workaday Americans, but constantly scuttle public policies that would make their lives better. For example, the GOP and corporate Democrats have jointly demanded a trillion-dollar compromise in Bidens national investment plans. Whats being compromised? Not proposals to fund the corporate wish list, but long-postponed needs of everyday Americans, including home health care, free community college, affordable housing, wage hikes, environmental justice, etc.
The wealthy and their political enablers complain that America cant afford such projects. But, hello these arent projects, theyre people! And permitting politicos and lobbyists to leave them behind yet again would be an abominable moral failure of our society.
Credit: Jim Hightower
summer_in_TX
(2,685 posts)Commercial channels focus on what draws attention and conflict sure does.
One of my friends turned me on to a CSPAN video she happened to catch earlier in the week in the wee hours. She was so heart warmed, surprised, and then grateful to watch the hearing of this House committee because it gave her hope. She gave me enough clues that I was able to find it. I've watched about half (it lasted more than two hours) and saved the rest.
Did you know there's a House Select Committee on the Modernization of Congress trying to work together towards solutions that will reduce the incivility and inability of Congress to work together on behalf of their constituents?
https://www.c-span.org/video/?514868-1/house-panel-examines-civility-collaboration-congress
homegirl
(1,419 posts)the link. Very interesting. I tried to learn how long this House Select Committee has been addressing this very important issue, without success.
Will watch video in the next few days.
summer_in_TX
(2,685 posts)Think it has a list of their meetings and maybe details. https://modernizecongress.house.gov
calimary
(80,700 posts)Thanks for bringing it up!
Eyeball_Kid
(7,410 posts)Trump showed them the way. Now they mimic his indifference to human life. Trump didn't (and don't) care how many people he got sick or died. He carried the virus with him in the White House without regard to others' safety. He forced them to come in contact with COVID and suffer the consequences.
This is what he actually did. It wasn't metaphor. It was behavior. And seemingly millions were watching and listening. And they decided that being like Trump had meaning. Some of those who would become victims of their aggression and indifference would be Republicans and Trumpers, but their real interest was to kill the libs. It doesn't make a difference to them if fellow fascists died, but what really made a difference is the notion that their actions, inspired by Trump, would result in killing liberals. Herman Cain was collateral damage. He died of "friendly fire." Trump didn't care, and neither do his worshippers.
summer_in_TX
(2,685 posts)The erosion of empathy. The twisting of motives. The trumped up "war on Christmas" and the like. All to strengthen their tribal identity and ensure they wouldn't turn to other news sources so their shareholders would get rich.
Fox and Limbaugh have successfully "othered" liberals for some thirty years, telling their audience that we HATE America, that we are the source of everything that's wrong with the country, and that we DESPISE them and think they're stupid.
What happens in basic training, especially before a war? Building tribal identity, othering the enemy (jap, spic, gook, raghead, etc), telling stories of how awful they are, vicious, untrustworthy, subhuman.
Fox and RW media have shaped an anti-American radicalized army that's gullible and easy to use as a tool in their hand.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,789 posts)President Merkin Muffley : You're talking about mass murder, General, not war!
General "Buck" Turgidson : Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.
Mopar151
(9,965 posts)The story of Operation Northwind is significant for several reasons - partly as it stands as a template for how the far right goes to war. Secondly is what Generals LeMay and Leminitzer were saying on the cocktail party circuit, regarding the "acceptable" death toll of a war with Russia.
https://www.amazon.com/Where-Angels-Tread-Lightly-Assassination-ebook/dp/B00X3VZED6/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Where+angels+tread+lightly&qid=1638588023&s=books&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N16W6E4?notRedirectToSDP=1&ref_=dbs_mng_calw_1&storeType=ebooks
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NJRY8WJ?notRedirectToSDP=1&ref_=dbs_mng_calw_2&storeType=ebooks
FWIW, it seems to be the consensus that JFK's response to the presentation of OP Northwind - the firing of CIA founder/chief Allen Dulles and (Chairman, Joint Chiefs?) Lyle Leminitzer.
winetourdriver01
(1,154 posts)One death is a tragedy. A million deaths are a statistic.
Retired Engineer Bob
(759 posts)Vinca
(50,170 posts)their own voters. Elected (and vaccinated) GOP politicians are routinely calling for an end to vaccine mandates and funding, no mask mandates, no restrictions on anything. Those tell-the-people-what-they-want-to-hear policies are killing the very people who are foolish enough to vote for them.
0rganism
(23,856 posts)If they can overturn elections with judges they appoint and temper tantrums, why would killing voters be a problem for them? They want fewer voters, fewer people who care about government, and killing us off is one way to get that.
SharonAnn
(13,767 posts)0rganism
(23,856 posts)if they had any concern about their voters' health and safety, they would have acted very differently. The nature of gerrymandering leads to tighter margins, so there's some incentive to keep their loyalist voters alive, but very soon the elections will become irrelevant.
Lonestarblue
(9,880 posts)They have enough judges on their side and a radical Supreme Court intent on supporting whatever Republicans want to do and in the process turning the country into a society where the Old Testament rules. Republicans dont worry about killing their own voters because they dont think they need them.
MadameButterfly
(945 posts)is power for a few (white, male) rich oligarchs. They don't care about "their own" because poor and working class Republicans are not really their own, they are pawns in their scheme, to be duped by causes like abortion, homophobia, and racism to distract from an economic program that would never appeal to enough people to win an election.
BeckyDem
(8,361 posts)do not see a great deal of hope in the world.
The Republican Party is more destructive today than anyone could have guessed. I don't mean to suggest the warning signs were not there, they certainly were....as far back as Reagan. But since Trump, it is beyond comprehension how self-corrupted they have become. Political power is paramount to life itself.
bucolic_frolic
(42,678 posts)gordianot
(15,226 posts)former9thward
(31,805 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,104 posts)They sold us 300+ million guns.
sarge43
(28,939 posts)With apologies to Tacitus.
Mr. Evil
(2,749 posts)In our now multimedia age I place one Nazi at the top of the blame chart. Rupert Fucking Murdoch.
2Gingersnaps
(1,000 posts)so he can do to the United Kingdom what Ronnie let him do to us.
Their irresponsibility about guns is yet another way they promote death. These are insane, stupid, power hungry people. Many of them are like H's brown shirts. I keep hoping all of the news is overblown about how many of these virulent people there are, but then I remember the state laws that they have enacted allowing republicans to overturn election results at will if any democrat is elected -- so in those states it won't really matter whether 1/4 or 2/3 of the voters are virulent. It is very frightening. I hope the U.S. Senate is able to pass the voting rights laws. If not, we are really in it.
geardaddy
(24,924 posts)They want to eventually outlaw any dissent and criminalize liberals and liberal thought.
KT2000
(20,544 posts)in this scheme. It makes it all so much easier when families are traded for brothers in arms (that what they think they are). We have already seen what a malleable bunch they are.
dupagelib
(139 posts)About 50 years ago, Alvin Toffler wrote about the effects of accelerating change. As the real and imagined face of America changes a large segment of the population can't handle it. This is the Republican party today. They cannot imagine a world without white privilege or climate destroying industries. Trump-ism is one of the last gasps of their waning influence and relevance.
Joinfortmill
(14,247 posts)2Gingersnaps
(1,000 posts)Ronnie, Donnie (the only thing he ever succeeded at, unless you count who he was born to), Ahhnold, Sonny Bono, Clint Eastwood, Jessie Venura.
LunaSea
(2,892 posts)I should re-read my copy as I've not done so in quite a while.
I did find many of his predictions spot on in the 80's & 90's.
I've yet to read POWERSHIFT, but I'm adding it to my list.
For those not familiar-
Future Shock is a 1970 book by American futurist Alvin Toffler, written together with his spouse Adelaide Farrell, in which the authors define the term "future shock" as a certain psychological state of individuals and entire societies. The shortest definition for the term in the book is a personal perception of "too much change in too short a period of time". The book, which became an international bestseller, has sold over 6 million copies and has been widely translated.
-------------
Alvin Toffler argued that society is undergoing an enormous structural change, a revolution from an industrial society to a "super-industrial society". This change overwhelms people. He argues that the accelerated rate of technological and social change leaves people disconnected and suffering from "shattering stress and disorientation"future shocked. Toffler stated that the majority of social problems are symptoms of future shock. In his discussion of the components of such shock he popularized the term "information overload."
This analysis of the phenomenon of information overload is continued in later publications, especially The Third Wave and Powershift.
More-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock
usaf-vet
(6,094 posts)The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism by Naomi Klein
https://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine-Rise-Disaster-Capitalism/dp/0312427999
During the run-up to the war in Iraq, I read the document Project for a New American Century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
In that document, this phrase appeared and jumped off the page at me "all we need in another Pearl Harbor."
I immediately thought of Naomi Klein and her book The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism
Elliott Abrams, National Security Advisor (2005-2009)
Gary Bauer
William J. Bennett
John Ellis "Jeb" Bush, Governor of Florida (1999-2007)
Dick Cheney, Vice President of the United States (2001-2009)
Eliot A. Cohen, Counselor of State Department (2007-2009)
Midge Decter
Paula Dobriansky, Under Secretary of State for Democracy and Global Affairs (2001-2009)
Steve Forbes
Aaron Friedberg
Francis Fukuyama
Frank Gaffney
Fred C. Ikle
Donald Kagan
Zalmay Khalilzad,
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Chief of Staff to Vice President (2001-2005)
Norman Podhoretz
J. Danforth Quayle
Peter W. Rodman
Stephen P. Rosen
Henry S. Rowen
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense (2001-2006)
Vin Weber
George Weigel
Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense (2001-2005)
Finded their names and the roles they played then and even now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
Grasswire2
(13,564 posts)MAGAs on one side, normal people on the other.
With the caveat that the normal people do not subsidize the expenses of the MAGA.
homegirl
(1,419 posts)without a medical exemption. DO NOT GO TO THE HOSPITAL, STAY HOME, TAKE TWO ASPIRIN AND DRINK LOTS OF FLUIDS.You really believe it is no worse than an ordinary head cold, treat it as such.
hamsterjill
(15,214 posts)Now...since we are talking about movies, have you ever seen a movie called The Star Chamber with Michael Douglas? The plot offers an "answer" to some difficult situations.
PCIntern
(25,347 posts)He was in some groundbreaking movies.
hamsterjill
(15,214 posts)As I said, though, I think it's an answer to our current situation. It's just a movie after all!
LittleGirl
(8,261 posts)Roc2020
(1,604 posts)Sadly I knew this after Charlottesville. The GOP would support Hitler if Hitler could win and give them power. There is no bottom left.
fwvinson
(488 posts)PCIntern
(25,347 posts)mrsadm
(1,198 posts)and back then there were still a lot of WWII veterans around who remembered the war and the horrors of Nazi Germany. I think that made a huge difference.
Also IMHO, what these people want now is purely power and money.
fwvinson
(488 posts)One, flew during D-Day. He pulled gliders. And, transported. He is from Yorktown, Virginia. Great man. I heard his crew of planes went on one such mission, and he was the only one to return.
The other commanded a squad that spotted targets in Germany, France, and other European places. In front of the front lines. The death and destruction he saw and lived through. I was told he was guilt ridden because he was spared.
He became a very successful man with a great family.
Several years ago he put a bullet in his head. He never got over the war.
I can't even imagine what they went through.
Delphinus
(11,808 posts)Thank you for telling the story of your grandfathers. You are correct, we can't even imagine what they went through. I'm sorry your one grandfather would up taking his own life.
Tommymac
(7,263 posts)They may kill millions of us and think they have 'won'.
However uncontrolled climate change will then kill them all along with the rest of the species.
Their supposed enclaves will not protect them at all.
PatSeg
(46,804 posts)is an excellent example of a dangerous right-wing fanatic. Also Martin Sheen as a political candidate and future president in The Dead Zone.
Such people do exist and if given the power they would destroy humanity without hesitation. Germany in the thirties and forties was a warning, but for many people that was ancient history.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)He played the opposite of a crazed right wing nut job. That movie reminds me of now, gun nuts prepping for the collapse of America, the stuff going on now ain't new.
PatSeg
(46,804 posts)I think once a person starts preparing for an End Times scenario, it becomes an addiction or an obsession and they can never have enough protection. Kind of like a perverse hobby.
Of course, the absolute best movie fanatic was General Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove, who was sure that everything was a Soviet plot to destroy America. The movie is a classic for good reason, the characters are a bit too close to reality.
Joinfortmill
(14,247 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(15,369 posts)Thats just a byproduct of their lust for total autocratic power.
Once they obtain total power through the dismantling and destruction of democratic institutions, they will need workers and consumers to keep America functioning as a late stage capitalist empire.
NullTuples
(6,017 posts)And this - all of this, today - just feels like the unchecked progression of what was being done back then. And what was being done back then feels like unchecked progression of what was done in the Reformation. Which in turn feels like a progression of what existed in the early Plantation days.
This is our history. This is America. We fight to make incremental advancements toward equality but never have the backbones to declare all out war on racism, sexism, ableism, religious privilege, and so on. At best we make an advancement and then they get in power and ratchet everything even tighter. If Roe falls & republicans gain power again, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and everything that grew from it will likewise be dismantled.
Texaswitchy
(2,962 posts)Putin in control.
Saboburns
(2,807 posts)BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Sadly, I have to agree.
GoodRaisin
(8,889 posts)Trump brought it to the surface and that evil just blew me away. Ive seen this developing for a while and its a good time to start laying low, if not already, if you are a liberal.
flying_wahini
(6,529 posts)traitorsgalore
(1,390 posts)Does anyone realize what kind of person/socipath it takes to torture human beings? Then, to make that a national policy and watch every GOPlague prick support it?
This has been going on for decades.
Delphinus
(11,808 posts)totodeinhere
(13,037 posts)else you will lose credibility. The Republicans have not allowed the death of 700,000 people. To say that is ludicrous. Yes, Trump severely mismanaged the Covid crisis. But no matter who had been president, Democrat or Republican, thousands of people would have died from Covid. Fewer would have died, but some would have died. And as we know thousands have died in other countries that Trump had no control over. That's just a fact.
So rather than alleging that the Republicans allowed the death of 700,000, it would be more accurate to say that many more died than should have under Trump, but some would have died no matter who was president.
PCIntern
(25,347 posts)that the disease did not exist or it was no worse than the flu or was a Democratic hoax or one or another lie. There is no way in Gods green Earth that anywhere like this number of people would have died of 99% of the Congress, governors, and local politicians had told the truth from the beginning. Nearly every single fatality now has to do with lack of vaccination. Before the advent of the vaccine, Had people universally practiced social distancing and proper disinfection and mask wearing, the numbers would be a tiny fraction of what they are now. When I was a kid, virtually every person was immunized with the Salk vaccine then the Sabin vaccine. No one ever said polio was a hoax. The disease was nearly eradicated in no time. Now I am well aware of the differences but do not have the temerity to deny that this nightmare is orders of magnitude worse than it had to be because of the lying Republicans.
totodeinhere
(13,037 posts)had been president. But you originally said that the Republicans allowed 700,000 to die and that's not just reasonable. Some would have died no matter who was president. Some died from it before we even knew that Covid existed. And as I said before, people in other countries that Trump had nothing to do with also died.
Brainfodder
(6,423 posts)Duly noted on a daily basis.
90% media control, Fox News still a thing and some worse still able to keep the spread of covid going, almost like their livelihoods depend on it?
dflprincess
(28,057 posts)and a good many of them saw combat so they did want to avoid that horror. The voters who remembered the war, especially the combat vets like my dad didn't want another war. Those people are all pretty much gone now and the horror forgotten.
James48
(4,416 posts)Cozmo
(1,402 posts)I really didn't want to. but felt it was my duty because of all that is going on right now. I also forced myself to watch a documentary about the depression entitled "When the World Broke". I was so glad I watched it because it highlighted how Americans lifted themselves up with the assistance of FDR and the WPA. I was especially impressed with how our creative community expressed this period of time and gave meaning to all that we as a people had endured.
When the right bemoans this pandemic as nothing more than a conspiracy, I realized these numb skulls have had things too easy for far too long. Wake up, Shit happen all the time and you better face it, fix it and move on to life's next challenge because there's always another one just around the bend.
Response to PCIntern (Original post)
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jaxexpat
(6,703 posts)The probability that humans would countenance and cause the annihilation of nearly half the human race is not 100% but it, too, is large. Human on Human massacre events of lesser magnitude are, logically, even more likely.
People have had the capability to bring about nuclear winter and planetary de-habituation for well over 50 years. It is almost a certainty that people would use it at some point.
But what is 100% inevitable is the unstoppable consequence of climate change. The human species has outgrown its petri dish and depopulation to 50% of the current total is a certainty. The only unknown is how many more of the remaining 50% will it cause to perish. Or, put even more plainly, how many will survive at all?
kairos12
(12,817 posts)secondwind
(16,903 posts)Pacifist Patriot
(24,647 posts)it's because we're in a resource war and have been for a long time. Policies that "cull the herd," whether that be liberals or conservatives doesn't matter so long as there is a huge die off to leave dwindling resources to the folks who believe they have manifest destiny ownership of them. One of the reasons they don't care about killing off their own base. When you don't need an electorate, what does it matter?
My apologies for sounding so desolate this morning, it's been quite the week....and I haven't seen any real news since well before Thanksgiving week. Can you imagine how glum I'd be if I had?
turbinetree
(24,632 posts)gulliver
(13,142 posts)Nuclear war is the big risk, imo. I would argue it's not going to be feasible for anyone to go full-blown Nazi with death camps and concentration camps in this country. Everyone has a smartphone, and vast numbers of people across the political spectrum have guns. The slightest hint of a nut flare-up anywhere results in a tweet tidal wave, and, usually, a misguided knee-jerk reaction on all sides against the cause of the flare-up.
Republicans understand that life is ephemeral. They're objective might be mainly to "enjoy" their own lives and, on the other side of the coin, live as free as possible from grief and despair. Democrats are that way too. We just have different definitions of the mechanics, processes, and results that produce that objective.
I'd argue that one of our problems is this idea that governmental power can solve every problem. When you try to use any tool for something it can't handle, you risk breaking the tool and making the problem worse at the same time. That's one reason democracy itself is under threat. We too often use the word "democracy" to stand up for us, but we fail, at the same time, to stand up for democracy. We act like democracy is so sacred that it doesn't need anyone to advocate for it.
You can't wave the Constitution in the face of someone who's angry and say, "This paper says you can't do what you want to do. Read it and weep!" If they're angry enough, they'll go haywire, grab it out of your hands, and get out their lighter. They'll put on their buffalo headdresses and breach the Capitol.
Response to PCIntern (Original post)
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Kath2
(3,054 posts)And he emboldened similar people to feel that hate and prejudice is OK. He did make America hate again. Heartbreaking to see.
2Gingersnaps
(1,000 posts)when the banks collapsed just as Hoover was leaving office, advised Hoover to "let the slump liquidate itself." "Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate." He advised to let the economy completely collapse so that value could be rebuilt, no matter what the cost in human suffering. Remember, the Dust Bowl was one of the factors that caused the Great Depression, which alone killed 7000 and left 2 million homeless. FDR had other ideas. For that he was considered a "class traitor." So yes, when Biden echoes FDR, it is for good reason, and the same people who rallied against FDR are the same ones as before too. Bill Clinton's great nemesis was Richard MELLON Scaife. The Kochs astroturfed the Tea Party into existence.
This nihilism of the Republican party pretty much started then. The party of Lincoln had suddenly became the party of Scrooge, "die and decrease the surplus population." The difference between then and now with Covid, they are encouraging the liquidation of their own voting base. Early in Covid, it hit the high population (Democratic) coastal regions first, now it has spread across the nation into the rural (Republican) populations.
But then, remember Reagan and the response to the AIDS epidemic? ......as long as it is "those people?"