This may upset some DUers but after Iraq it's hard to watch the same hacks talking

[malaise]

about human rights, democracy and Russia doing what the US did. The US illegally invaded and occupied Iraq and slaughtered close to a million Iraqis. We’re still waiting for consequences from toothless unstitutions like the UN.
One more thing - unlike the US and Iraq, at least the Ukraine is a Russian neighbor and there are genuine security issues on both sides.
I hate all the global bullies, but spare me the self righteous B S.
It’s unwatchable. The spin is unbearable.

[walkingman]

1. When it comes to war I don't believe a

fucking thing anyone says on either side - we are a war monger country and have been one since our founding.

[brooklynite]

4. So President Biden is lying to you? You really want to go there?

President Joe Biden on Friday said he is now convinced Russian President Vladimir Putin has made the decision to invade Ukraine, but emphasized that room for diplomacy remains.

"As of this moment, I am convinced he's made the decision, we have reason to believe that," Biden said when asked if Putin had made the decision to invade Ukraine.

[TomWilm]

29. Why go there? A US President might be misinformed - AGAIN!

[brooklynite]

33. Unless you imagine President is planning to invade Russia, the comparison is pointless...

We're going to respond (without military action) if and WHEN Russia attacks Ukraine. I suspect we'll all be aware of the facts.

[TomWilm]

42. Yes, but please do not invent more absurdities like that then ...

... it should be possible to disagree without.

[cstanleytech]

94. Maybe but keep in mind Biden is only stating his opinion he is not asking for

the right to initiate an invasion of Russia or the Ukraine by the US.

[whathehell]

162. ..and you are MORE.informed?

Do tell.

[whathehell]

24. " We're a war monger country"? Compared to who?

Russia? ..or Britain, France, or Japan, in their Imperial times?

[walkingman]

35. I am already against the next war.

President Carter said,"The US has been at peace for only 16 of its 242 years as a nation. Counting wars, military attacks and military occupations, there have actually only been five years of peace in US history—1976, the last year of the Gerald Ford administration and 1977-80, the entirety of Carter’s presidency. Carter then referred to the US as “the most warlike nation in the history of the world,” a result, he said, of the US forcing other countries to “adopt our American principles.”

I trust President Carter......

[whathehell]

43. That's nice, but you didn't answer the question

Last edited Fri Feb 18, 2022, 11:17 PM - Edit history (2)

And at this time, whose "principles" would you prefer, Putin's?

I think you need a broader and decidedly more current perspective.

[Polybius]

236. His last year of peace is what did him in

In 1980 Iran deserved it.

[quakerboy]

99. I mean, since you mention it

While I think the evidence strongly supports the understanding of Russian intent to more actively increase its invasion of Ukraine in the near future, the fact is the US has been actively involved in military action in other countries for most, if not all of the months that I have been on this planet, with forces stationed in a plethora of other countries in every section of the planet during every single day ive been alive. So...

[whathehell]

102. Um. Well since you.mention that,

Last edited Sat Feb 19, 2022, 02:35 AM - Edit history (1)

do our " military actions in other countries" or the number of months your been alive to experience them mean we're slways at fault?

[quakerboy]

174. Strawman

The fact that Russia is an extremely aggressive nation, and likely about to turn a low key multiyear invasion of Ukraine into a more active invasion for mainly political reasons does not make the US into any less of an agressive "warmonger" country.

[whathehell]

175. Not at all..

and the only pertinent question now is, which "warmonger country" do you prefer to live in?

[quakerboy]

178. Thats an irrelevant question.

What in the world do you think its pertinent to?

And why are you so set on defending/ignoring US mistakes? The fact that Russia sucks does not excuse our prior mistakes. And while I dont get to vote in Russia, I do get to vote here. So lets do Better, yea?

[whathehell]

183. It's not, but I understand why you can't answer it.

What's "irrelevant" is rehashing US mistakes in light of a very different current situation.

[quakerboy]

212. Its fully irrelevant to the current situation.

Its trying to take the conversation in a new direction that has nothing to do with the discussion the Op started.

Russia being a warmonger and likely to push forward with its ongoing invasion of Ukraine does not mean that we should rah rah stand up behind those who pushed us into Afghanistan, or any of our other expeditions. It should give us pause how quickly they contradict themselves when its convenient to blame others for doing things similar to what they praised us for doing, and should give us reason to think when they venture opinions into other areas of our country and society.

[whathehell]

243. Sorry. but it is..

..and, by the way, no one is "rah-rah-ing".. .

Adios.

[malaise]

142. Shhhhhhhhhhhh!

This must not be said - they're there for peace

[brooklynite]

2. Would you say we shouldn't have gotten involved in WW2?

We had taken the Philippines in the Spanish American War, so I guess we didn't have an objection to the Japanese invasion? And the British had colonized half of Africa, so why worry about what the Germans were doing?

[malaise]

5. See #1

Mark Twain spoke for me ages ago.

[JohnSJ]

120. If we didn't get involved in WWII, I would have never been born

[malaise]

245. I seem to remember that thee then Soviet Union switched sides and joined the allies in WW2

Perhaps you know a different history.

And then there was this
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/soviets-liberate-auschwitz
On January 27, 1945, Soviet troops enter Auschwitz, Poland, freeing the survivors of the network of concentration camps—and finally revealing to the world the depth of the horrors perpetrated there.

Auschwitz was really a group of camps, designated I, II, and III. There were also 40 smaller “satellite” camps. It was at Auschwitz II, at Birkenau, established in October 1941, that the SS created a complex, monstrously orchestrated killing ground: 300 prison barracks; four “bathhouses” in which prisoners were gassed; corpse cellars; and cremating ovens. Thousands of prisoners were also used for medical experiments overseen and performed by the camp doctor, Josef Mengele, the “Angel of Death.”

[Wingus Dingus]

256. Yeah, they invaded Poland, ceased to recognize it as a country,

took it over, massacred many Poles, oppressed them and forced them to be part of the communist regime. I mean, that's why Russia is so beloved by Poland today...

[malaise]

259. Tell that to the Jews in Auschwitz

That is all

[Wingus Dingus]

260. Uh, no, that's not all.

Quite a long, fraught history of Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union. Edit to add: are you seriously trying to make Joseph Stalin some kind of hero?

[hlthe2b]

3. I don't condone our going into Iraq--not then, not now.

But, I do see Putin's megalomaniac desires to restore to Russia the former Republics very very different. He's already taken Crimea and Georgia. Do you really think he is only after Ukraine (as deplorable as that alone would be?) Hell, no. He's got the Balkins and all the other former "stans" in mind and probably quite a bit more in Europe.

Putin: "the greatest tragedy in the 20th century was the dissolution of the USSR"...

Take him at his word.

[malaise]

7. How do his desires differ from the US's

Serious question

[hlthe2b]

12. Did we leave Iraq voluntarily? Did we (while there try to take over other areas of the Middle East?)

Where are our imperial colonies? Very different despite my agreement that the justification for Iraq was BS then and even more so now. I don't condone Iraq, but the US has never tried to colonize the world. Putin has made it clear he would do so in a heartbeat.

*And yes, I acknowledge we have Guam and continued limited interest in Micronesia (Kwajalein, Marshall Islands) and Puerto Rico--but all have their unique histories and have had the option to become independent of US control (which the Marshall Islands basically has) while others have elected to remain in some form of "protectorate or territory or an actual part of the US"...

[Cha]

96. Solid Points.. Thank You!

[JohnSJ]

128. It is all Biden's fault because Putin is threatening to invade Ukraine, at least that is the logic

That seems to be used here by some.

The only thing Biden has done, along with NATO, is make it clear if Russia invaded Ukraine, they will place economic sanctions on them with the hopes that will dissuade an invasion

This is why we are very fortunate to have Biden as President

[Cha]

138. Yes, We Are Fortunate to have

Joe Biden as the President of he United States of America.

I bet Fuckhead & the Magats would Not put Sanctions on his GD idol Poot.

And, Putin can FUCK OFF

I feel for Ukraine NOT fucking Putin.

Hey..

[dwayneb]

232. The sanctions won't do anything

Putin knows all about the effect of the sanctions and he could not care less. It's foolish for NATO to assume that these sanctions will harm him in any significant way or dissuade him.

Putin wants to acquire all of the Eastern European countries that are not in NATO and he wants to do it NOW. He clearly understands that once they join NATO he will have lost the opportunity. Time is of the essence.

So don't look for the Ukraine acquisition to be the last. Same playbook as the USSR in the cold war, and of Hitler in WWII.

[whathehell]

28. We support the Nato Treaty which agrees to not take other countries by force

..Thats how.

[HUAJIAO]

46. On the other hand, we do it through Disaster Capitalism.

[whathehell]

49. Oh, so our methods, unlike those of, um, what?

Communism or Right Wing dictators aren't spotlessly clean?
As President Biden says, " Don't compare.me with the Almighty, compare me with the Competition.

[ShazzieB]

47. EXACTLY!

Thanks for pointing out this very key fact.

[whathehell]

51. You're quite welcome.

Last edited Sat Feb 19, 2022, 02:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Seems a few people here are a tad uninformed.

[Tommy Carcetti]

146. We have a democratic society with a transition of powers.

True, that was severely tested on January 6th, but still, we somehow survived and have had different administrations with different policies.

Putin has had none of that.

Stop comparing us to Putin.

[malaise]

149. The US has also overthrown several democratic governments

across this planet

[Tommy Carcetti]

150. So?

What does that have to do with Ukraine and Putin?

[uponit7771]

180. True, and we still offer better than what's Putin offering ... no? tia

[EX500rider]

238. And how recently was that? nt

[uponit7771]

179. US MINIMUM acts as if maintaining plurality is important, authoritative govs are NEVER good for the

... minority population.

We can by hypocrites be correct about Putin and be better than what he's offering all at the same time

[dwayneb]

234. Are you serious?

There is zero equivalency between the mission of the US in that war, and Putin's regime building aspirations in Eastern Europe.

While I think the Iraq invasion was foolish and as we now know was based on false premises, there was never any idea that the USA was going to acquire Iraq or Afghanistan as a US territory or state.

Make no mistake, Putin wants to expand the Russian oligarchy as far as he can to the West. He's already acquired Belarus and Georgia for all intents and purposes, and he now he has his eye on Ukraine. And he won't stop there. Any country that is not already in NATO should expect to become a target.

It's not impossible that we could see another European war coming out of this. Putin is following the playbook of the USSR in the cold war and of Hitler in WW2.

[TomWilm]

39. I do take Putin at his word, and that was not those ...

Some scholars with actual knowledge of Russian take Putin at his words, that he was talking about the collapse of Russia itself. Not even Putin would like the Soviet back, where he would have little chance to get so rich...

[hlthe2b]

44. He wants the countries under his authoritarian control --not the USSR form of governance.

and no, those words were Putin's. Try again to defend Putin, but this is a big Fail. That quote reflects his actual words despite some so-called expert to the contrary that you claim to know--possibly frequently quoted on Russian media?

[TomWilm]

52. Yes, any Putin-lover would defend Putin's wish to get rich ...

... I just ask for a more open minded view, and you are quoting BS. The Ukrainian government also know the language, and has therefor newer quoted this. Plenty of better arguments left against Putin without.

[hlthe2b]

54. Actually Colonel Vindman and Fiona Hill, Michael McFaul are my sources. Yours?

Did RT not identify those you seem to be getting your information from? You say you are not defeding Putin, but your comments contradict you.

[hlthe2b]

71. Accusing DUers of spreading propaganda is not going to let you stay here long--especially

when YOU cite no sources but merely become belligerent when asked re: your informing citations or expertise. Apparently citing credible sources is, as you yourself say: "boooooring." Well, that doesn't play here. Maybe on other sites you frequent.

I cited a quote widely attributed to Putin in which he revealed his long desire to reunite some of the countries lost with the breakup of the USSR. It is not merely American experts who have documented this.

[whathehell]

98. Hmm..Are you a Ukranian?

I'd guess not, and, by the way, this IS their "echo chamber,".

[monkeyman1]

55. just like German pipeline , about oil & gas money !!

[hlthe2b]

57. For whom?

[Sneederbunk]

6. Waiting for Russia to play the WMDs card.

[malaise]

10. Who played it against the Japanese?

I’m just a peon in a shithole country.

[whathehell]

32. Japan was issued THREE warnings before the bomb

was dropped on Hiroshima..Many more than we received for Pearl Harbor. Try again.

[Red Mountain]

124. Fair to say

The Japanese didn't understand what they faced. Debatable if the warnings went to anybody able to change the course of events.

That said, whether a large raid dropping incendiary bombs or a single plane dropping a single bomb the horror was consistent.

[whathehell]

148. Yes it is..

but strangely enough, you're still sounding like an apologist for them.. As for "not understanding what they faced", they weren't told specifically of it's being a nuclear bomb, but it's humongous power WAS communicated to them, and they still didn't give up. They wouldn't surrender even AFTER Hiroshima, which brought on another bombing of Nagasaki.

As to it's being "debatable" whether the message went to anyone able to change the course of events", are you kidding? Japan was a military dictatorship at the time..There only a couple of people it COULD go to.

Yes, the war was a horror, but it's one they started.

[electric_blue68]

204. 🤔 Except incendiary bombs don't (a far as I know) don't alter genetic material of future...

Last edited Sun Feb 20, 2022, 02:35 AM - Edit history (1)

generations.

Sure, unfortunately, terrible phyical, and psychological injuries often for survivors.

[Red Mountain]

121. Not here

you're not

[electric_blue68]

203. After reading Hiroshima, and NYC in ?'70 being the first city in the USA to see Japan's...

traveling exhibit on Hiroshima/Nagasaki which included the infamous "Stopped Clock", and a wall with the permanent silhouettes of those citizens sort of photo etched in bc the light from the A Bomb was SO bright it etched the stone and the silouettes of their remained.
(I'm making an educated guess, I should look it up)

So after that I thought we should have dropped one on a uninhabited island.
To not use it at all - idk for sure.

I've also met (don't remember their word for it) women A Bomb survivors who'd come to the UN regarding nuclear treaties, banning the bomb etc.

ETA: On reading another poster -
oh, I forgot they ignored Hiroshima and didn't stop their war, thus Nagasaki. Still... I guess I still don't believe they should have hit Hiroshima as a first

[dwayneb]

227. This is already happening

Putin will oversee exercises by Russia's nuclear forces on Saturday involving the launch of ballistic and cruise missiles.

https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-oversee-nuclear-drills-during-standoff-over-ukraine-2022-02-18/

[Sherman A1]

8. I have no problem with what "they' are saying

but, then I don't watch any of them.

[multigraincracker]

9. Many of us are old enough to remember our False Flag

incident in the Gulf of Tonkin.

see The Pentagon Papers.

[JohnSJ]

13. We are NOT doing the gulf of tonkin in this situation, it is Russia that is doing that

[roody]

16. How about WMDs? Remember the Maine?

Babies thrown out of incubators?

[JohnSJ]

25. Biden is NOT lying. There are massive Russian troops on the Ukraine border, and they are not there

for vacation.

Biden has made it clear they would not put American troops in Ukraine.

He has also made it very clear that if there is an invasion, there would be major sanctions against Russia.

And while that action would economically hurt the West, it will also hurt Russia, especially the NORD pipeline.

[Happy Hoosier]

216. Is Ukraine threatening to invade Russia?

Simply put, if a war happens here it is 100% because Russia wanted it.

[multigraincracker]

34. Russian instead of us are all about

Oil and dominos this time.

[whathehell]

64. So who would you prefer living under, Putin or Biden?

You have a choice.

[whathehell]

81. Never argue with an American self- hater.

.They'll always find a reason to indulge their pathology.

[JohnSJ]

119. It is ironic that they seem to be mad at Biden because Russia is threatening to invade Ukraine

Last edited Sat Feb 19, 2022, 06:46 AM - Edit history (1)

What has Biden done about this that is wrong?

He has tried to dissuade Russia from invading Ukraine by telling them if that occurs, there will be a United front of economic sanctions against them.

Ironically some seem to be arguing from Putin’s and trumps perspective that NATO needs to be disbanded

All I can do is shake my head

[whathehell]

132. They don't say, do they? If you notice, they won't

criticize Biden directly because he's "their guy".

They're not really concerned about Ukraine. They
just want to trash the country and it's "imperialist" past, generally, and they're using this as a lame
excuse to do it.

[JohnSJ]

141. Absolutely, and using the logic because the US has engaged in misdeeds in the past

it means they have no right to criticize Russia, which is inane logic

[whathehell]

210. One would be hard pressed to find a powerful country

that had NOT committed misdeeds.

That doesn't make it "okay", it just makes it, unfortunately, somewhat unremarkable.

[JohnSJ]

211. Yes

[JI7]

176. The far left and far right are heavy with conspiracy theories

they are more similar to each other than they are to anyone else .

They view this whole thing as mainly being about Biden/US .

[malaise]

14. The West's false flags are always given a pass

While they scream when others do the same.

All are imperialist bullies and I condemn all- not taking sides here.

[multigraincracker]

36. You said it better

than I could. Thank you.

[whathehell]

61. So you'd prefer that Trumpp's pal, Putin, destroy Nato

and the Western Democracies?

Sorry, dear, but as long as you're a citizen in the Western Alliance, neutrality isn't an option.

[DickKessler]

114. Western Alliance? The one that includes less hawkish France and Germany? How about Orban's Hungary?

How about Erdogan’s Turkey, a member of NATO?

How about the “special relationship” with the Brexit-loving Tory-led UK?

What about the US’s so-called friends in Israel and Saudi Arabia? Do they count as “Western?”

Hate to break it to you, but most Americans don’t want to get involved in the imperialist chess game of the “Western alliance.” And besides, we have enough issues at home, in case you hadn’t noticed.

[whathehell]

123. Lol..Would you.prefer an aliance with Russia and it's

former satellites in Eastern Europe? ..Vlad would be happy to hear that.

I hate to break it to YOU, dear, but most Americans support our keeping the promises we made to
both NATO and Ukraine.

[electric_blue68]

205. Uh, using "dear" - really? That's patronizing.

[whathehell]

207. Oh well..

[wnylib]

110. I opposed the invasion of Iraq and

marched in DC along with 300,000 others before the invasion started. So did millions of people around the world. Perhaps if other world leaders had done what Biden is doing now, the aggressive, totally unwarranted invasion of Iraq would not have happened.

Bush was pushing for an invasion of Iraq as soon as 911 happened, although they were totally unrelated. He wanted war.

Biden is NOT pushing for war. He is trying to deter it. Publicly exposing what Putin is doing, and unifying NATO in a firm stand against it is a deterrent from letting Putin go beyond Ukraine.

Putin is a menace to the world, sowing chaos in democratic countries, including our own. He has to be called out publicly and stopped.

[Cha]

169. TY for explaining that so well.

I Protested in NYC on the same day.. when there were hundreds of Thousands, too.. When the World said NO to War on Iraq.

This is by no means the same damn thing.

[Tommy Carcetti]

144. But you are making excuses when none need to be made.

And you did it in 2014-15 too, whether you realize it or not.

[whathehell]

67. And many, like me, are old enough to remember

and I'd still prefer to live in the US than in Russia...How ' 'bout you,?

As Howard Dean used to say: " Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good.

[tiredtoo]

130. ditto EOM

[JohnSJ]

11. No it isn't the same thing.

[roody]

15. Imperialist wars have been bipartisan all

of my senior life.

[malaise]

151. All my life too

[KG]

249. word.

[jalan48]

17. K & R

[haele]

18. Understood. No rah-rah, just a sick, sinking feeling.

Just as I have had during all of the Reagan/Brush adventures in US hegemony.
I get that sinking, sick feeling a long, whether it's us, or China, or Myanmar, or India, or that cluster f*** of competing, corrupt influences in the middle east.
The tactics don't change, nor does the corruption. The big men who think they know better never seem to learn from history.
And yes, I'm a Vet.

Haele

[malaise]

27. You speak for me

The big men who think they know better never seem to learn from history.
Great post

[whathehell]

89. Our stance on Ukraine is NOTHING like the Reagan Bush wars..

Yes, there may be imperfect "big men" involved, but the motives and objectives are entirely different.

[haele]

103. I know. As does the OP.

But there have been more than a few "adventures" that quite a few counties, including our own (mmm... Halliburton's plan to break sell off oil fields in Iran come to mind) have engaged in over the past century or two that leave the same sense of sick anticipation as a bystander watches it unfold.
Especially since one knows that the person's who are pushing for War know full well that lives and resources are going to be lost for their ambition or ego or profiteering, and don't care.

We won't be spilling blood in this, I think. But it will be a waste of resources, and with the Russian love of asymmetrical warfare and fingers in our country politics and infrastructure, we probably won't come out of this unscathed.

I was just expressing sympathy with the OP. War is not something to look forward to.

Haele

[whathehell]

107. This is not an "adventure"..We're not even sending in troops.

So are we talking about Ukraine or the past?

It seems like Ukraine is just being used as an excuse to self- flagellate over very different conflicts of the past

[haele]

134. Okay, you got me. I was talking about the feeling that a run-up to war causes..

And the fact that, as a retired Navy Chief, I had felt it before watching some of the adventures -yes, adventures - that the US military got used for. The past I had direct action in. The past where people I was in training with had been killed in action in.

So, you don't have a sinking feeling watching someone else doing it to another country, and the media just salivating to report on missiles and explosions, and civilian casualties?

You don't get a sinking feeling hearing the media and punditry rah-rahing and proposing that we are going to be sending our troops or our mercenaries, err-trainers- into harm's way?

You think Putin's adventure in Ukraine might not have ramifications outside Ukraine, or maybe other countries that are not so friendly to democracy might be taking notes on how to challenge the US and allies that could drag us into a conflict over the next couple years or months?

Yeah, I hate America because I'm pissed the media can't see past the shiney in front of them, and are making breathless, shallow suppositions to drive ratings and turn public opinion instead of actually doing real reporting.

Haele

[electric_blue68]

209. Ty for a very interesting post. I mostly listen to WNYC...

the flagship station of NPR that has it's own local based news, and political programming. Since people have said NPR has gone too rightward.

Also listened to (RIP) Air America radio.
Listen to a progressive station in Chicago that a poster mentioned some weeks ago that I checked out.

Don't have a working TV right now.
So I haven't been really exposed to the rah-rah

[EX500rider]

239. "Reagan/Brush adventures in US hegemony" Reagan?

What, Granada?

A 1979 coup d'état had established an independent non-aligned Marxist–Leninist government. A formal appeal from the Organisation of Eastern Caribbean States (OECS) led to the intervention of U.S. forces.

[haele]

240. Iran Contra?

A lot of little "actions" in Central.America, West Asia, and Africa where, granted, those administrations didn't send the military directly, but we provided arms and "trainers", and a lot of civilians lost their lives. Lots of little proxy wars and rebellions were supported, mainly because Grenada proved to be a public relations bust. Lots of "plausible deniability" went on during the 80's.
The 90's started out with Desert Storm I and Bush 41 supporting one side of the Somali Civil War, which bled into the Clinton administration. Which also had its own issues in the Balkins, etc...

The era wasn't called the Cold War for nothing.

BTW, I was including Bush 43's Desert Storm II, "Blasts over Bagdad" when I talk about Bush adventurism.


Haele

[EX500rider]

241. I don't consider Iraq & Ukraine to be any bit alike.

US overthrows genocidal dictator who used poison gas on his own civilians and installs democratic government and then pulls out not at all like Russia attacking and trying to make a colony out of their democratic neighbor.

Also don't see the parallel of Regan administration officials secretly facilitating the sale of arms to the Khomeini government of the Iran Vs Russia trying to conquer their neighbor.

(before everybody gets their panties in a wad I neither said Iraq was a good idea or well handled)

[brooklynite]

19. I don't watch talking heads, so I don't care what they say...

I care what President Biden says, and I don't consider his opinions "self righteous B S."

You may disagree.

[ShazzieB]

50. Amen to this.

[Hav]

20. Lots of whataboutism and deflections in this thread

while a country has to fear a bloody invasion.
It makes one wonder what some intend to achieve with this whataboutism. A softer tone towards Russia and just letting them do their thing because of certain things in the past and trying to dismiss the criticism leveled against Russia?

[betsuni]

26. +1

[whathehell]

38. Lots of opinion "informed" by personal animosity and

hatred of this country, too, most, I suspect,
based on reasons other than foreign affairs.

[electric_blue68]

206. what kind of "based on other reasons..." Seems broad strokes to me.

[Happy Hoosier]

217. Like what?

Let’s be clear…. Russia massed on Ukraine’s border. If a war happens, it’ll be because Russia invades Ukraine. Not the other way round.

[whathehell]

224. Lol, it seems you've misunderstood -- We agree on Russia

Maybe you misread my post, or mistook me for another poster -- I support Biden on the issue.

[Happy Hoosier]

233. I must have... my apologies! NT

[whathehell]

237. No.pronlem, Hoosier

We've all done it.

[whathehell]

72. You bet

Those here who hate their own country
live for these occasions.

[Hav]

90. I'm honestly at a loss of words seeing some replies here

Not sure whether it's just a sentiment directed against the US or if some don't recognize how their arguments align so well with Russian interests.

[DickKessler]

117. "align with Russian interests", sounds like a TailGunner Joe talking point.

[DickKessler]

116. Russia is a large nuclear-armed power. Tell me exactly how we deter them.

[emulatorloo]

135. 'Whataboutism' at its worst. Disgusting that a well known Russian propaganda technique is so

casually deployed by some.

[maxsolomon]

21. Legit points, however

I still don't think Russia should invade Ukraine.

What are Russia's "Genuine Security Issues"?

[malaise]

22. I agree with you but

when did whst we think matter to global bullies?

[maxsolomon]

31. Never. History is always written by Sociopaths.

The Authoritarian revival of the 21st Century is a never ending tragedy and farce. It happens globally and it happens nationally and it happens locally.

Domination and conflict are inherent to our nature as Apes. It's tragic and quite depressing.

[whathehell]

74. Hmm...Do you think President Biden is a "sociopath"

[maxsolomon]

79. No, I don't.

But I think Putin is. Authoritarian leaders are.

[whathehell]

83. But as President of world power America, he's writing history..

and you did say ALL those who write history are Sociopaths.

[maxsolomon]

147. OK you got me

Not everyone who writes history is a Sociopath.

Just the ones that start wars, maybe.

[whathehell]

152. Okay

Most of us overstate things at times..Thanks for fessin' up.

[Ferrets are Cool]

140. Of course they shouldn't, but

I don't think that was the OP's point.

[TheRickles]

30. Thanks, malaise. This needed to be said.

[whathehell]

85. You may think so..

It appears most of us here disagree.

[TheRickles]

104. All the more reason....

[whathehell]

105. Sure

.

The fact that an opinion is in the minority makes it neither neither correct nor important.

[TheRickles]

154. And the fact that an opinion is in the majority makes it neither correct nor important.

Both types of opinion should be open for consideration in forums like DU.

[whathehell]

160. No, but

.it does make a consensus.

[TheRickles]

193. I agree. :-)

[kcr]

242. Russian apologia and whataboutism doesn't need to be said n/t

[hvn_nbr_2]

37. "toothless unstitutions"--typo or deliberate invention of new word?

Unstitution: noun. A non-functional institution. An institution that doesn't do much.

[malaise]

40. A genuine typo

But now I’ll leave it.

[CaptainTruth]

53. I love "unstitution," an institution that isn't.

I'm borrowing that one. Maybe it'll end up in the urban dictionary?

[malaise]

56. They'd better credit DUer hvn_nbr_2

:

[Celerity]

59. Unstitution

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-unstitution-steve-cook-frsa/

[malaise]

62. Never heard it before

Ha!

[Celerity]

63. oh, neither had I, it is just a random thing I found on google just now

[Kid Berwyn]

41. True History

We were there, malaise.
We saw what happened.
We know the players.
We are part of that story.



Bartcop, too.

[malaise]

45. Yep

[I_UndergroundPanther]

133. I miss Bartcop.

[sky_masterson]

258. Bartcop was where I first posted as GoPsUx

It's where I was before I found this place a few decades ago

[I_UndergroundPanther]

262. I used to write

For unknown news.

Another writer there sent me a link to DU and I poked around,lurked for a few days than signed up.

This was when it was DU 1. DU 1 was almost magical back then. A smaller community of like minds.

[BlackSkimmer]

48. It's not "the Ukraine.".

It’s just Ukraine.

Like it’s not the Jamaica, the Canada, etc.

Why don’t people get this?

[dawg]

196. Because "ukraine" means borderlands, and the former Soviet republic was ...

referred to as "the Ukraine" for many years.

[BlackSkimmer]

198. So people here are incapable of learning new terminology?

That’s kind of scary. Not seeing anyone refer to the USSR or the Soviet Union.

Would you say the same for the word “colored”? Would you say the same for calling various African countries by their old names?

Ukraine is what it’s called now. I would hope DU folks can keep up with new terminology.

Lots of countries change names. Respect is called for.

[dawg]

199. It's cute that it's such a big deal to you.

If you really want to be better than everyone else, you should refer to the country as Україна. Otherwise, maybe cut people some slack and find something more important to stress over.

[BlackSkimmer]

200. It's a big deal for people from that country.

And I’m not in the least bit stressed.

I find it amusing that people who like to think they’re intelligent can’t get such simple things right.

It’s quite fascinating.

[electric_blue68]

208. Got it 👍 Ty.

[Budi]

58. Nevervmind then. Let the old KGB authoritarian murderer of his own people go for it!

Rahhhh Rahhhhh at least The US will have washed our hands clean, turned our backs to the damage he'll do.

Not our problem, right?
Not yet anyhow.

Screw Ukraine, Embrace the Russian Oligarcy & all their dominiin over whatever humanity happens to get in their way as they plow freely across the globe in search of Oil & Gas & whatever enriches themselves.

Maybe Putin will show his compassionate side & #FreeNavalny 🙄

The US didn't start this shit.
But Biden will answer when NATO calls.

Trump dropped the US from NATO.
We should be thanking the heavens that Joe Biden is our leader today.
Rather than condemn the position that was lain on his shoulders, at least respect that the path Biden faces was created by Trump & Putin.
Biden's election blew a big hole their perfectly orchestrated plan.

President Biden & NATO will not abandon humanity for a tyrant.
That is what Authoritarians like Trump, Putin, Assad etc do.

[dwayneb]

230. Dead on Budi

This is exactly correct, would not quibble with a thing you stated.

To offer any equivalence between the USA and Russia is totally absurd. NATO is the only thing that prevents this authoritarian scum from acquiring all the territories of Eastern Europe.

You have to wonder if the Putin supporters here in the USA would change their tune if they lived in Russia for a few years and got to experience what it's like being in an impoverished Mafia state.

Or, if they were in the middle of Ukraine as the Russian army rolls in and steals their newfound liberties.

[BobTheSubgenius]

60. Looking at the Ukraine situation through a relative prism, as opposed to the absolutel prism...

...as the one the MSM uses, it really opens up a lot of uncomfortable parallels, and, in fact, truths.

While we recognize the difference in malfeasance and intention between administrations, much of the rest of the world sees The Great Satan...or whatever.

And, as always, relative thinking and analysis is a liberal province, while absolutism is the bailiwick of the regressive. Of course, "Absolutely Right" or "Absolutely Wrong" is more or less their only options, so it's not hard to imagine their pronouncements in any given situation.

In the few words this post should have been - I'm totally with you on this particular slice of geopolitics.

[malaise]

65. You have a way with words

[BobTheSubgenius]

75. Thank you, sir! :)

Your OP was quite thought-provoking and made me feel I should give it what I hope was a proper response.

[malaise]

77. Mam😀😀😀n/t

[Budi]

69. Biden didn't lead us into Afghanistan. But he did take us out of Bush's mess.

Blame the current horror where it belongs.
Vladimer Putin.

[BobTheSubgenius]

73. I don't disagree with you in the slightest.

My "quibble" (if you can label a huge slab of resentment as a "quibble) is with most of the media and the dishonest and/or naive (to put a charitable spin on it) "reporting", which seems like a purposefully chauvinistic slant.

[Budi]

76. The Media is 99% of why we're facing the disasterous forebodings today.

Profit unfettered, regardless of the cost.

[BobTheSubgenius]

86. Truth.

This same Media can be blamed for flushing the US and quite possibly much of the Western world into a giant sinkhole, should they manage to flip the Leg and Exec branches into the hands of spiteful, malevolent children, which seems their aim.

Joe Biden and the Democrats should be KILLING it in public opinion.

[whathehell]

163. Do you have any links documenting that assertion?

[stopdiggin]

108. the media is being chauvinistic toward Putin?

Would that be the same thing as being chauvinistic toward Stalin?

[DickKessler]

118. Comparing Putin to Stalin trivializes Stalin's evil.

[stopdiggin]

155. probably. but this string has basically been drawing analogy

between the U.S. (and one presumes Biden?) and Russia and Putin. So ... ?

[whathehell]

78. The hyperbole in this thread is off the charts

..as is the American self- hatred.

[yaesu]

68. The US has an over 100 year history of intervention either military or CIA, we have done

our share of damage & Iraq is a good example of US being hypocrites at the moment. It sucks, we were dead wrong but that doesn't give US the excuse for not defending our friends from the same kind of tyrants that we have been in the past. We will always have an opportunity to do the right thing but will will not always do it. I believe pitting putin in his place is the right thing. If we don't deal with this now, well, look what Europe had to deal with after the Munich Agreement. Appeasing monsters doesn't go well.

[tiredtoo]

70. The military industrial complex

is doing everything they can to get another big war going.

[Hav]

88. Do you seriously believe that the US is causing this?

Biden wants a war with Russia? Or do you think Putin is part of the US military industrial complex? If yes, he's doing indeed a good job.

[whathehell]

91. No, they don't..It's just another excuse for the usual suspects

here who hate, but benefit, from this country, to vent their spleen.

[tiredtoo]

127. no I don't think Biden wants war

But I think the Military Industrial complex does and the MSM is supporting them. Just my thoughts on what i see on the television news shows.

[uponit7771]

181. +1

[Skittles]

80. I never let ANYONE off the hook for voting for what was obviously a war based on LIES

I got some flak here for dinging Hillary for it

it's absolutely SICKENING that they did that - I absolutely agree with you maliase

[Hortensis]

82. I think it's encouraging for people to realize talking head is a career,

that networks and shows coverage is styled and directed, with themes to be pushed, sometimes very dishonest ones. That these people are fallible and tend to adopt opinions within the groupthink prevailing around them.
And that the safest place for anyone who wants a successful, long-time career is in the middle of the groupthink pack.

Someone once wrote down and about the unofficial but very real "rules" for discussing Hillary during the presidential campaign, on daytime and weekend shows mainly. All were various ways to sabotage and make sure no viewer ever came away with a positive impression. It's probably still findable on the web somewhere.

Those who didn't engage in that systematic character and thus party assassination weren't invited back on MSNBC's and CNN's daytime shows in particular. (The evening shows have more knowledgeable audiences and more freedom.) Those who actually contradicted the stories were blackballed from talking headdom permanently, as one of the regulars on MSNBC was while I was watching (he called out a blatant lie about her on Morning Joe and that was the last I ever saw him, gone that morning). Of course, potential hosts who wouldn't follow the rules didn't have their own show then or ever.

This kind of stuff is easy to see for those who realize it's happening. And we want everyone to be able to.

[electric_blue68]

218. Where have you gotten this info from...

It could be true, I just hadn't heard it (wasn't here on DU till mid '18). 👍

[RKP5637]

84. I'm not agreeing or condoning or accusing anyone, just saying I'm 100% fed up with wars with a

species that is supposedly (I guess) intelligent. I was born into a war and my whole life has been in/at/at the edge of some kind of fucken war. Just WTF is wrong with the human species. Maybe a mass-distribution of the "Happy Pill" is the solution ... but to me, and yes I am one, so many human beings are really really fucked up IMO in so many ways!

[Tommy Carcetti]

87. Iraq was a) in 2003 and b) a colossal mistake.

I doubt you’ll find anyone here who doesn’t think the Iraq War wasn’t an abomination and a colossal mistake.

With that said, do you have any idea how much the Iraq War has to do with the current situation with Russia and Ukraine?

The answer? Zero.

As such I would most respectfully request you refrain from attempting to bring in Iraq every time the current Russian-Ukrainian situation is brought up.

Because you appear—possibly subconsciously—to be excusing Putin’s bad behavior and that’s not a good thing. Nor is it the first you’ve done that. You did that a lot in 2014. A lot.

Also, it’s just Ukraine. No need for the “the.”

[AZProgressive]

153. I doubt Iraq was a mistake

A lot of people got rich off that war and the defense industry including Halliburton. Exxon Mobile has contracts on some of Iraq’s oil fields.

I’m not a fan of Putin, in fact the opposite because a war defending Ukraine would be one of the more just wars compared to other US wars but Iraq was much worse than a mistake.

[Martin Eden]

92. Is NATO, US, Ukraine a threat to invade Russia?

I'm trying to wrap my mind around the likelihood of that.

Sure, both sides have legitimate security concerns, but that's a very broad statement with shades of gray and context and the proclivities of the major players in this specific crisis.

Can we agree the present danger is that Russia will invade Ukraine, as opposed to NATO & Ukraine invading Russia?

[Xolodno]

101. In all the debates here, that is the best question yet, that no one addresses.

"Is NATO, US, Ukraine a threat to invade Russia?"

To many here, the answer is "no" and its preposterous to think so. But that isn't objective thinking.

To the Russian mindset, the answer is a resounding "Hell yes they are a threat!".

From the major wars of the Mongol hordes, Swedish War, Ottoman Empire, Napoleon and Nazi Germany to comments made by Churchill, Patton, etc. to minor infractions such as aiding the Whites, etc.

Of course one could say, those are now in the distant past. Yes, but the Revolutionary War here barely gets a paragraph in British history books while the aforementioned gets a lot of attention in Russia. Bush and Cheney went nuts on enlarging NATO, how do you think that looks to a people who are strongly paranoid about another invader?

[Budi]

111. The aggressor is Vladimer Putin. No one threatened him.

[DickKessler]

113. NATO expansion can only be viewed from Moscow as a threat to Russia.

[Martin Eden]

131. Objective thinking vs how it looks to paranoid people

Last edited Sat Feb 19, 2022, 07:17 PM - Edit history (1)

I can't say I understand your argument, but you seem to be saying that people paranoid of being invaded (the Russians) are thinking objectively regarding who is likely to be the invaders across the Ukraine/Russia border.

What that essentially means in the current situation is that Russia massed its troops on the Ukrainian border to forestall an invasion into Russia by Ukraine and presumably NATO, even though Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

Do you have any "objective" evidence that such an invasion was being put into action?

[Xolodno]

145. Are we or NATO planning to invade Russia via Ukraine?

Of course not.

But they think so. When we conducted Operation Archer in 1983, a number in the Soviet Military believed it was a ruse and that war was on its way. When that intelligence filtered over to Ronold Reagan, he couldn't understand how they could have thought that.

But with continued offensive weapon deliveries, assurances by some in the west that Ukraine WILL be part of NATO someday, Zelensky jailing political opponents and him also saying he was willing to do a referendum on the breakaway territories, thereby ceding them to Moscow and enabling Ukraine to join NATO....

China doesn't really care for North Korea, but the thought of US bases right on their border continues to nix any idea of a united Korea and thus they continue to prop up the regime.

Likewise, Russia sees a Ukraine join today, tomorrow NATO bases not far from Rostov. And one can make the argument that since they have nukes, no one would dare attack them. And the counter to that, is Bush/Cheney and Trump. They see it as a long term US imperialist plan, not us taking the moral high ground.

[Martin Eden]

157. "Of course not"

That was my point entirely.

Is Ukraine/NATO going to invade Russia?

OBJECTIVELY ... Of course not!

[Tommy Carcetti]

161. Exactly. nt

[Martin Eden]

164. "But they think so"

If objective logic dictates that that no way in hell does NATO plan to invade Russia through Ukraine, then Putin's misreading of the West is paranoid to the point of delusion.

I don't think Putin is stupid or delusional. Much more likely are internal reasons having to do with his hold on his own country and/or Putin's geostrategic goal to restore Russian hegemony over its previous vassal states. Ukraine was an important part of the Soviet Union, and he's behind a low grade war in Eastern Ukrain since 2014.

The buildup of a Russian invasion force is not a measure to forestall an invasion from the West; it is to achieve the longstanding goal of reincorporating Ukraine into Russia.

Though there is no realistic scenario of Russia being invaded, recapturing Ukraine would forestall the former Soviet state from joining the NATO alliance -- and given Putin's personal and nationalistic ambitions, it's understandable why he would take extreme measures to prevent that.

But make no mistake -- this is more about Russian ambitions than about a tangible threat of the West launching a war of aggression.

[Xolodno]

201. Then we are going to agree to disagree.

Is there some ambition of regaining some of the territory the empire lost? A little, but not all of it, it's what helped to bring down both the Tsar and Soviet Union. But most of it is actually fear of US Imperialism. And it's not unfounded, I've traveled a bit, the "Yankee Imperialist Dog" moniker is still real in many parts of the world (even in Hawaii, go figure). Having Biden or Obama as President doesn't change that. NATO isn't seen by some as an alliance of nations, they see it as US dominated with nations forced to go along.

For example, when I was at Carnivale in Venice one year, sitting next to a Brit during the boat parade. He was unhappy with Obama, because in his view, the US helped bring down Libya and then didn't do shit to pacify the mess afterwards. It may not be fair, but, that is a viewpoint no matter what you, I, or anyone else think. Dismissing it only brings more problems.

[Martin Eden]

202. I'm not saying the USA has not been a bad actor on the world scene.

Last edited Sat Feb 19, 2022, 09:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Smedley Butler was not wrong, and I personally travelled to Washington DC to protest the invasion of Iraq four days before "Shock and Awe" was launched. Obama was wrong to help depose the Libyan dictator. Unintended consequences can be terrible, including the coup against Iran's democratically elected government in 1953.

What I'm saying is there is no realistic scenario in which NATO/USA is going to invade Russian sovereign territory through Ukraine or anywhere else. If you insist that is a real possibility within the foreseeable future, then we can agree to disagree on that point.

ETA:
I'm also saying Putin is motivated to force Ukraine back into the Russian sphere by any means necessary.

[uponit7771]

182. Fuck their state stoked and useless paranoia, without the US they WOULD be attacked. They

... have to admit one day the world is round too and stop with the bullshit about who's going to attack them.

We're still offering better than what Putin's offering the world, period

[dwayneb]

229. Absolutely true

I'm a little baffled by this argument that the US and NATO are the aggressors here. I am certain that is the propaganda being distributed in Moscow.

Do not kid yourself. Russia is an expansionist state, they have not changed their colors one bit from the good old days on the USSR when they were pulling the strings of the totalitarian puppets in most of the countries in Eastern Europe.

The threat that NATO poses to Putin is not that they will invade him, but they will prevent him from acquiring control in those countries and to reestablish the empire. He already has Belarus, and Georgia more or less. Soon he will have Ukraine, the greatest prize in Eastern Europe.

Putin has little to lose. The sanctions being discussed will be no more than a minor annoyance, particularly now that he has some nod-nod, wink-wink agreement with China.

[cstanleytech]

93. You will get no argument from me over what happened in Iraq and the condemnation that is

deserved for those that went along with it.

[Xolodno]

95. I've stuck to the Olympics and avoided the news.

And tried my best to avoid some threads here. I agree, we don't hold the moral high ground.

Furthermore, Putin didn't wake out of bed one day and say "I'm going bust Ukraine's door in today". This has been slowly building since Bush/Cheney, when they;

1. Pretty much telegraphed any ideas of Russia being part of NATO are going into the toilet.

2. They lead a massive expansion of NATO (even countries such as Slovenia which had a population opposed to joining).

3. Squandered all the goodwill we got after 9/11 from Russia (i.e. using their bases, facilitating former republics for us to use there's, etc.).

4. Right wing bureaucrats (stay behinds) conducting their own agenda when a Democrat is in office (i.e. Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nunland&quot .

5. And of course, Zelensky ain't no angel, his poll numbers are on the floor. And he's jailing political opponents while we turn a blind eye and not just Russia friendly Medvedchuk, but also going after Poroshenko who was elected after the Maidan.

I still think its entirely possible Putin will pull back "some" of the forces and could keep a permanent presence on the forward bases, thus, a permanent possibility he could invade. And this could all just be a massive exercise, but invades during the Summer. But I've been wrong before, and he does intend to "finish business".

Not saying its right if he invades, but, to say this is a micro event is laughable, its macro. The seeds for this were sown well before Biden and he knows it. But his options are shit 1 and shit 2.

But like you said, its just the same hacks spinning this.

[electric_blue68]

219. Some people wanted Russia to be part of NATO?!...

Wow, I guess I'll have to look that up. Never heard that!

[panader0]

97. The US has been no angel for a long time.

The 1953 coup in Iran is just one of many examples (see the Dulles brothers under Eisenhower).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
Accepting the mistakes of the past is essential, just as the struggle for civil rights is ongoing.
Our foreign policy has been pro-big business for a long time. (Allende in Chile)
Biden is different. I believe that he is trying to have a just and sane foreign policy.

[electric_blue68]

220. Oh, the Dulles brothers...

an echoing name from my distant past... I was a toddler/child... but heard their names mentioned later on.

Do you think - if you have an opinion...


That The Dulles Brothers factored in later on in
Eisenhower's - beware of he Military Industrial Complex - remarks/warning?

[panader0]

225. John Foster Dulles was Secretary of State under Eisenhower, and his brother Allen Dulles

was head of the United Fruit Company. In 1954 the US led coup in Guatemala was held to help
the United Fruit Company. Guys like Che Guevara and Fidel Castro saw that stuff and it helped forge
their revolutionary views. The Dulles brothers were pure evil strong arm capitalists.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/country-company-1954-guatemalan-coup-support-united-fruit.html?chrome=1

[malaise]

261. I believe that too

but history and previous mistakes cannot be overlooked.
Love your input (as always).

[Budi]

100. They cannot take on Putin alone.

Last edited Sun Feb 20, 2022, 05:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Ukraine protestors hold up flags to thank countries for their support




I'm ok with NATO & President Biden's decisions dealing with Putin's agression. Magnitsky Act is exactly written for Vladimer Putin.

Turning our back is inhumane.

[Cha]

170. Mahalo for these photos..

Bring the Humanity into it.

It has NOLTHING to do with bush's Invasion of Iraq.

[Samrob]

106. If I had another heart, I would give you another one. +++++ nt

[delisen]

109. Do you ;believe Ukraine or west is threatening to invade Russia?

You are quite right that George Bush invaded Iraq under false pretenses. He lied; his top administrators lied. Millions suffered and many died horribly because we lost control of our election process and a man with few qualifications for high federal office managed to get himself into the Oval Office.

Russia and the Russian people are not under any credible threat from the NATO countries or Ukraine. The war threats and intimidations are all coming from Putin. His claims upon Eastern Europe are absurd. As absurd as George Bush’s claim that only a major war could remove the dictator, Saddam Hussein because Saddam…………….used a Double !

Europe and this world does not a USSR replica and Russia does not need Lebensraum.

[DickKessler]

115. Most of the mainstream media supported the illegal invasion of Iraq. They still have jobs.

[Budi]

125. They ran a 24/7 promo for a year +6 more for Putin's man, Donald Trump.

Paid off for them all as well.

[DickKessler]

126. Yup, no accountability, ever.

[uponit7771]

184. This doesn't answer the question asked multiple times in this thread? Do you believe NATO is ...

... going to invade Russia?

The question is a good one, it makes those who go neutral to yes look like flat earthers cause that would be world ending.

That include TFG's pimp Putin, he looks like an authoritarian asshole using the west as an excuse to be the aggressor.

Fuck him, America the imperfect and still the beautiful is offering something better than parasites of Putin

[DickKessler]

112. Agreed.

[TomSlick]

122. To make sure I understand, is it your position that the US should leave Ukraine to its own devices?

If Russia attacks a smaller neighbor, should the US do nothing? Should Ukraine be this century's Sudetenland? Are you OK with Putin reinstating the Soviet empire under tank treads?

No one, at least that I have heard, is calling for a US military response if Russia invades. What is being threatened is an economic response.

If you believe that a Russian attack on Ukraine would be a bad thing, what do you think would be the appropriate response?

[JohnSJ]

136. +++. It is all Biden's fault because Russia is threatening to invade Ukraine, and while we are at it

we might as well throw every mid-adventure the US has done, and argue because of that we have no right to criticize Russia

Just nuts

[Cha]

139. I feel so bad for those people

in Ukraine..

Not fucking Puin

Thank You.

[ymetca]

129. Gulp

So far this all feels strangely like old Cold War saber-rattling.

It's almost as if we're stuck in a loop, not knowing how to deal with the collapsing Two Superpowers era, which is rapidly being superseded by techno-globalization and the rising production power of China and the so-called Far East.

The nexus of money and power is migrating again, with lots of powerful players jockeying for dominance in whatever the hell will be our next New World Order.

Or maybe we're just experiencing the early stages of environmental collapse, followed by Mad Max and the Book of Eli.

Let's hope not, eh?

[Ferrets are Cool]

137. Thank you so much for saying this

[JI7]

156. Based on this type of logic the US should not have gotten involved in WW2

and had no right to criticize Hitler.

[Sewa]

187. The logic is that the Cheney-Bush regime

should have paid a price for their war crimes. But Eric Holden let them skate. Keeping the powder dry since ‘74.

[JI7]

188. What War Crimes ?

[betsuni]

189. How do you know Cheney-Bush could've been convicted of war crimes?

How did Eric Holder "let them skate"?

[JI7]

158. What's the genuine security concern for Russia in this ?

[Shellback Squid]

159. why did you join DU in 2004? looking for like minded folks who detested bush* and the Iraq invasion?

That's me, that is why I joined in 2003 after lurking here a year

I understand why you're upset but the comparisons are wrong, we should not have invaded Iraq
but I don't agree with you that Russia should invade Ukraine because our leadership was so inept and corrupt
in 2002, ...and that is what you are saying

[Crunchy Frog]

165. For that matter, why should we be upset about Putin interfering in our elections?

It's not like we haven't interfered plenty in the politics of other countries.

It feels like a lot of people on this thread should be okay with it.

[whathehell]

166. Lol..Good point

I wouldn't take them too seriously..The Left has always had a contingent of self- hating Americans who think we should all commit suicide (or submit to homicide) for "the sins of our past".
..I say " You first".

[Tommy Carcetti]

167. President Biden apparently must forever wear the millstone around his neck for the sins of Bush.

Or something.

It’s absurd.

[whathehell]

173. Absurd it is..

but haters gonna hate.

[Crunchy Frog]

171. Hey, I'm as self-hating as anyone.

Doesn't mean I think we should uncritically accept whatever Putin does.

[whathehell]

172. How nice for you!

I'm not, and no, we have no reason to accept Putin's word over Biden's.

Funny, because I remember the "outrage" here when Trump did essentially the same thing -- accepting Putin's word over that of our intelligence agencies. Talk about muddle headed hypocrisy.

[malaise]

191. When it comes to matters foreign policy and imperialism

some of us prefer to accept neither of your words.

[whathehell]

194. ..and when it comes to discerning one from the other,

some of us prefer to accept none of yours.

..Have a good one.

[uponit7771]

185. lol, this puts this thread in words. America can be imperfect and correct and I don't see that being

... addressed a lot here.

[AngryOldDem]

192. Also the fact that most of us can differentiate between Iraq and Ukraine.

Quite a broad-brush leap of logic on display in a lot of posts here.

This, in part, is what I think Putin relies on to get away with his shit. A massive, knee-jerk distrust and condemnation of our government’s actions, without taking the time to look at the whole picture.

Yes, Iraq was ginned-up, wrong, and immoral. This, however, is not — Europe is in deep, undeniable peril if/when Russia invades Ukraine.

Can’t rec the OP for this reason.

[dwayneb]

235. It's not just Europe in peril

You are absolutely correct.

But in my opinion, the USA is in great peril along with Europe. Putin understands that the Radical Right here has greatly weakened our resolve to support NATO, and he will keep driving that wedge into the heart of our democracy.

His troll farms and disinformation armies are working overtime to poison our social discourse. He knows that if he could get a Trump or a DeSantis elected here that he will have an enormous advantage to expand the Russian empire.

[malaise]

228. You mean the way the US does in our hemisphere and across the planet?

Wake up!

[Crunchy Frog]

244. My point exactly.

[leftstreet]

168. DURec

[uponit7771]

177. malaise, America can be imperfect and correct at the same time. Also, our fucked up can be better

... than the fucked up Putin's offering to the world.

[whathehell]

186. Thank you..That needed to be said.

[dawg]

195. What right did England and France have to object to Germany's invasion of Poland?

Both those countries were guilty of imperialism and empire building all across the globe. At least Poland was a German neighbor and there were genuine security issues on both sides.

[Wingus Dingus]

223. Nailed it. This is whataboutism taken to pathological levels.

We must be forever paralyzed from acting in our and our allies' defense and interests because of our past mistakes? Maybe Malaise can let us know what year in the future--IF EVER--we should be allowed to participate on the world stage again...I'm sure Russia and China (blameless and morally perfect as they are) will cease their aggression toward their neighbors while we and other NATO countries voluntarily hamstring ourselves out of shame and remorse and a fear of looking hypocritical...I mean, who do we think we are??

[David__77]

197. I agree with you.

…

[jcmaine72]

213. Thank you!

[Celerity]

214. kick

[Happy Hoosier]

215. It really bothers me to see stuff like this.

It feels like it is enabling Russia’s naked aggression. One can oppose Russia’s aggression towards Ukraine without endorsing the Iraq war.

[electric_blue68]

221. Because my TV's been down since ?mid '18 (and I never had Cable)...

I haven't really heard the "rah-rah", but I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I listen to the Local morning political/news program on WNYC, and NPR news (even if some say it's gone relatively rightward). The local program isn't rightward for sure, it's liberal.

I matched against the Vietnam War as a mid teen in NYC (my parents wouldn't let me go to DC for one of the biggest matches. My HS's lit & art magazine had a photo published from that march! ). I matched against The Gulf War - I went to DC for that (it was so great to see so many people marching). Marched against the Iraq War here in NYC (cops on horses - scary!).

Allende's assassination disturbed me. Iran in '53 I was a baby.

The USA , unfortunately, is not always the moral force it always claims to be. I know enough history.

I wouldn't want US troops on the ground in Ukraine, but I'm glad the US, and others are supplying other aid to Ukraine bc I'm half 2nd gen Ukrainian American.

I probably have unknown cousins over there. My dad told me his dad was a "peasant" near Kyiv who immigrated here, and stayed in NYC where a fairly sizeable group of Ukrainian Americans then lived. A bunch still do. The big boisterous side of my family is 1st, 2nd (and onward) gen Greek American. I have gotten some Ukrainian traditions from my dad.

The professor/historian Timothy D Snyder who specializes in Central, Eastern European from (I think) Lenin to Stalin and Holocaust histories - said Ukraine was always considered it's own self even by Lenin & Stalin.

I sure hope Putin doesn't invade further. He has no right to have incurred into Crimea, or the Dombas regions either.

Every country has it's good, so-so, and bad.
Even if I didn't have a good friend of Jamaica heritage (come to think of it - she's my 2nd Jamaica American friend - I haven't been in touch w my first one in around 50 yrs so. We were good friends from mid grade school through HS) I certainly wouldn't disparage your country.


Stay healthy down there!

[malaise]

231. A very thoughtful response

Thanks

[iemanja]

222. That doesn't excuse Russia

and it doesn't make the lives of Ukrainians meaningless.

[dwayneb]

226. May all be true BUT

The reality is that Putin's goal is to expand Russian territory and the return to the good old days of the Soviet empire.

Acquisition of Ukraine will give him an enormous advantage in Eastern Europe. So the question becomes, do you want to allow an autocrat like Putin to gobble up territory, uncontested?

This guy has only one goal, same as was stated by the USSR about the USA 60 years ago - "we will bury you". It's surely possible that this act of aggression could stimulate another European war.

As far as human rights go - do you really think that there is equivalence between the USA and Russia? We may have our weaknesses, but the modern day Russia Mafia state is a hellhole compared to the US.

[betsuni]

246. This reminds me of how I had to continually assure the members of an international online group

I was a member of during the Obama administration that even though both the Bush and Obama administrations were American they weren't remotely alike. They'd link some hysterical Glenn Greenwald, RT article or similar about Obama empire-building, starting WWIII, killing everyone with drones for fun, nuclear weapons, illegal surveillance, Michelle Obama taking luxury vacations that cost billions, etc.

[msfiddlestix]

247. I totally get it.. But ....

This is different. Yes we illegally and wantonly invaded in extreme warfare against countries we had no national security reasons to wage war against. Vietnam wasn't the first in our history, but it was the first in My lifetime. A very long, unthinkable and tragic list.

But this is different. Very different.

I must admit my perspective is a complete 180 from Putin's grab for Crimea.

I totally get you though.

[KG]

248. preach it, sister.

the usual justifications for a fake war for fake reasons. and this is different. and blah, blah, blah. but you are not wrong.

[dwayneb]

251. Fallacious argument - comparing Iraq to Ukraine

The USA had no intent to capture Iraq and make it a US territory or state, nor was there any plan to control the government from near or afar. We can quibble about the reasons for going in which we all know were flawed, but there was never a mission to displace the Iraq government with one of our own. Evidence is the situation we have today. Iraq is an independent sovereign nation and we are effectively withdrawn.

Russia and the Ukraine are totally different. We know from history what Putin's intentions are; he is actively working toward recreating the former glory of the USSR. Ukraine is the prize jewel in the region, it will give Russia significant strategic advantages.

It is naive to assume that Russia is not a threat to the West. We abandon our allies in NATO at our own peril.

Power in the world is shifting to the East and away form the West. We had our heyday after WW2.

It does not take a historian or a political scientist to see which way the wind is blowing.

[Tommy Carcetti]

252. And there are "no there are genuine security issues on both sides."

Eight years ago, Putin seized one of Ukraine's territories and started a proxy war in two more.

Ukraine hasn't seized a square inch of Russian territory.

[Sapient Donkey]

255. Regardless of US hypocrisy, Russia is still threatening to invade Ukraine and they are wrong

They will be wrong if they invade Ukraine and that is what matters. Making this a US vs Russia thing is unfair to the Ukrainians who do not wish to be under the influence of Russia, and who suffer greatly if Russia does pull the trigger.

I am against US troops being sent to Ukraine if Russia does invade, but that doesn't mean I think Russia should get away with invading Ukraine without consequences. Ukrainians have the right to defend themselves and they should be provided with the means to do so. I don't think you're doing it, but I see many on the left claiming they are anti-war by supporting Russia by protesting sanctions and aid to Ukraine. This can only be justified (but barely) if one is to make this about Russia vs. US instead of the reality of Russia vs. Ukraine.

[sky_masterson]

257. We invaded on lies and lost moral highground. We let the tyrants of the world know that

we are no better than they are. That said, I support Ukraine and am against Putin.