"It's really maddening when Westerners speak about a negotiated solution to Ukraine war"

[JoanofArgh]

Link to tweet

?s=20&t=-yBnWcUfyxz_mLiNr8nN5w

It’s really maddening when Westerners speak about a “negotiated” solution to the Ukraine war. Let me translate that lingo into plain English for you. The subject of the “negotiation” they speak of is how much of Russia’s conquest Ukraine should have to accept. If you are not a 👇

Ukrainian, you have exactly zero standing to engage this subject. Our role is to support the Ukrainians to the maximum extent we can without triggering a wider conflict. It is emphatically not to tell them how much of their country to give up or what limitations on their 👇

sovereignty they need to swallow. I’m sorry if you don’t like war. I don’t either. But this one is not your war or mine to end. Asking people to negotiate when their army is starting to turn the tide is presumptuous in the extreme. It’s up to them whether to take risks to take 👇
back Donbass and Crimea and the various territories the Russians are occupying.


Another key point on this matter that I want specifically to direct to international law Twitter:
To the extent you engage in this rhetoric you are taking a meat axe to the UN Charter and you should be honest about what you’re doing.

The Charter makes unlawful the acquisition of territory by the use of force. And it makes lawful the defensive use of force to prevent this. It does not say that when Country A invades Country B, the world will decide how much of Country B’s territory Country A gets to acquire 👇

through it’s use of force, and it does not say either that Country B will under threat of annihilation be pressured to accept limitations on its sovereignty instead of pursuing its lawful right of self defense to protect ALL of its territory.👇

When you accept the rhetoric that the “sides” should “negotiate” a “solution,” what you’re really saying is that the charter can go fuck itself when the threat of escalation scares you too much. That’s fine if that’s what you believe. But don’t expect us to 👇

take your bromides about the “rules based international order” terribly seriously if that’s where you fall on when it counts. If you take the rules-based system remotely seriously, you have to consider any negotiated resolution that allows Russia to keep any part of Donbas or 👇
Crimea and forces Ukraine to accept that as a gross failure.
That’s all I got.

[niyad]

1. KNR

[The Magistrate]

2. Hear Hear, Ma'am

[sop]

3. Agreed.

A just negotiated settlement: Russia withdraws all its troops from every part of Ukraine and pays full reparations to the people they've murdered, injured and displaced. After that is accomplished, and Putin issues an apology and resigns, the West will gradually lift the sanctions.

[Mad_Machine76]

4. Yep

[momta]

10. Exactly! n/t

[bif]

14. Amen to that!

[dutch777]

5. Nicely stated! The West is too eager to let Ukraine fold in some fashion so we can again kick the

can down the road even after having 1,000's killed, millions dispossessed and major economic upheaval. Why worry about justice, try for reparations or any of that messy, complicated stuff? I have been wondering how quickly we would roll back sanctions so we can again avoid really dealing with Putin and the problems he and his ilk cause episodically and go on to set up a probably worse disaster for the Baltic States, Taiwan or somewhere else in the not all that distant future. We ultimately had to deal with Hitler after much appeasement and this is different only in the fact that Hitler could not reach out in one last desperate blow with nuclear weapons.

[Wounded Bear]

6. History is full of examples of larger nations "negotiating" away the rights of smaller ones...

and Eastern Europe is full of them. No negotiation that does not fit Ukraine's definition of "fair" should be done.

The Russian invasion was illegal. They should not only get no benefit from it, they should pay reparations and assist in repatriation of refugees.

[orwell]

7. Add to the armchair generals...

...the armchair diplomats.

I couldn't agree more with this post.

It is Ukraine's decision. The free world should be here to offer any support they need short of direct military confrontation.

[CentralMass]

8. Are you finding this to be a big problem ? What westerners are talking about this ?.

[momta]

11. I'm not the OPer but from what I see

the real problem is with the "mainstream" media. I haven't seen a lot of this crap on DU, but even MSNBC (especially Chucky Todd) bring up "negotiated settlement" all the time, most recently with respect to the "Korea-like" possibility.

And Ben Wittes is often a guest on some of these shows, so he probably watches them too.

I honestly think they all need to sit down and shut up

[CentralMass]

15. Ok, I don't watch much news on TV these days but I agree with that sentiment..

[JoanofArgh]

22. Yep, this too. Thanks for your post.

[JoanofArgh]

21. Witte is a lawyer and was addressing the international law community and media pundits

who apparently have been making noises about Ukraine giving up territory to come to a deal with the Russians. There have been other articles on this fact recently.

[llashram]

9. at the least

whether we risked another war, with Putin no less, we should have tried to at least protect the skies over Ukraine, somehow. Fear of a fascist going mad and pushing his RED BUTTON is inexcusable. It's somewhat like repthuglikkkans fearing that Hitler in his bunker in Florida. After his daughter, other members of his family and entourage change his diaper he then comes out and has a rally with tens of tens attending. And a majority of his party still fearing him, unwilling to forego the money he generates in his base with the 'big lie' and still quaking in their boots is inexcusable. But big money drives politics in this country, doesn't it?

A fascist murderous barbarian has killed thousands upon thousands of innocents. He has to be stopped there in Ukraine. If he doesn't understand MAD hopefully one of his more reasonable generals will. History cannot repeat itself. Crimea here, Ukraine there and then a second time in our modern history blitzkrieg in Poland. Is that the fire this time we want as a country?

President Biden is a competent leader and so are the leaders in the EU. So I'm trying to trust them. But a bloodthirsty fascist barbarian is moving toward our doorstep. He must be stopped.

[TeamProg]

12. Ukraine should keep all of their land and Russia needs to give their nuclear weapons

or the sanctions stay on.

[Biophilic]

13. This, This, This, and This again. There was nothing right about

Putin's move and, as far as I'm concerned, he and Russia should not profit from it. But ultimately it is for the Ukrainians to decide. Plus I really believe if we were to negotiate a "solution", Russia would be back shortly someplace else to see what they can negotiate there.

[KS Toronado]

16. Very enlightening post Joan, thank you

It's why I enjoy DU, get a free education every day.

[JoanofArgh]

24. Thank you! Some media pundits have been annoying me and saw this on Twitter that explains it

perfectly.

[AdamGG]

17. It will be like signing a pact with Hitler ceding him Czechoslovakia and

declaring "Peace in our time". We should probably keep up the pressure on Putin, but it's the Ukrainians call whether they want to negotiate to halt the destruction and what they're willing to cede.

Even if they're not part of NATO, if Putin withdraws from part of Ukraine, it would be nice to see some large troop bases placed in what remains. Something to shore them up and send the clear message that the west will not forget and will not allow this to happen again. They need to be massively stocked with high tech weapons, so that they are a de facto front line of NATO without being a formal member.

And, if any concessions are agreed to by the Ukrainians, it would be nice if part of it included Russia committing to paying for the damage they've done if one inch of the sanctions are lessened.

[BradAllison]

18. Putin will take a breather to retool

Likely the next move will be more violent escalation and with zero warning or a signal it's happening.

[SYFROYH]

19. when you ask for help, unsolicited advice is often the price.

[barbtries]

20. i agree.

putin won't stop at Ukraine. he's insane.

[halfulglas]

23. I am SO glad to see this post.

The implications that Ukraine cede anything to Russia is abhorrent. For Russia to get anything out of this act of naked aggression and genocide would be a tacit admission that it is acceptable to change the borders of a country by force, and in this case to completely obliterate the borders. To all the people who have been murdered and those yet to die in the defense of their nation, a negotiated settlement tells them it is okay that Putin or any other despot who comes along to say a sovereign nation doesn't really exist. Most of our ancestors didn't know what was happening in Hitler's Germany at the time it was happening, but WE KNOW what is happening in Ukraine. We are all witnesses.

[calimary]

25. Agreed wholeheartedly!

As a parent I learned the value of not reinforcing OR rewarding bad behavior. To force Ukraine to accept part of its sovereign territory being taken by force from Russia and thus validating that theft by allowing Russia to keep what it stole is UNCONSCIONABLE.

What kind of world are we living in if that becomes okay???

And what kind of message does that send???

[Ohioboy]

26. This post says exactly what I've been thinking