Will Smith, Chris Rock, and when words are violent, too

[Jilly_in_VA]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by MustLoveBeagles (a host of the General Discussion forum).

After Will Smith slapped Chris Rock at the Oscars for making a cruel joke about his wife Jada Pinkett Smith, the public spent most of its energy moralizing around Smith's physical assault. But some say Rock's language can be considered an act of violence, too.

Violence is not limited to slaps and kicks, according to experts who study violent speech and psychological harm. Violence can be the words we use to mock, categorize, exclude and control.

"I would put that joke on the continuum of linguistic violence," said William Gay, a professor at UNC Charlotte who studies the philosophy of language. "We make too light of words. ... A lesson that we can take from what happened is the need to be more reflective about what we're saying and the harms that it can cause."

The cultural conversation around violent speech tends to focus on the most egregious acts, including hate speech and slurs. It's the uproar when Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says she was called a "f------ b----," by Rep. Ted Yoho on a staircase at the U.S. Capitol. It's the outrage when former President Donald Trump referred to Mexican immigrants as "rapists" and "animals." It's our indignation at the most horrific examples of online abuse, when Internet mobs are unleashed and reporters and academics and TikTok creators are inundated with rape and death threats.

But some linguists, psychologists and philosophers of language argue that in only condemning the most abusive speech acts, we excuse and dismiss the more subtle forms, including comedy. Rock may not have known how his joke would land, he may not have intended such harm and as a person of color belongs to a category that experiences rampant dehumanization through violent language, but linguists say his own speech act still deserves scrutiny.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2022/03/29/smith-slapped-chris-rock-but-some-say-joke-violent-too/7207103001/
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Let's talk about LANGUAGE that hurts people.....as a child, a woman, an LBTQIA+ person, a person of color, a disabled person.......words DO hurt

[uponit7771]

1. FACT NOT IN DISPUTE: Will Smith laughed at Chris Rocks GI Jane joke ...... too.

[Jilly_in_VA]

3. Are you familiar

with the term "uncomfortable laughter"? Ever done it yourself? Or laughed at something and then realized it wasn't even remotely funny?

[uponit7771]

7. No, stop ... WS should have the courage to have no laughter at all. WS wasn't uncomfortable ...

... committing battery in front of the cameras and then screaming like an 8 yr old seconds later.

If the GI Jane joke was THAT hurtful then its COWARDLY to show any kind of enablement for it.

[LakeArenal]

27. No stopping. Words are abusive and hurtful.

Just because it’s legal in US to saying any hurtful thing it’s not so everywhere.

Haven’t you ever known a Downs or LGBTQ individual?

Words can haunt one all their life whereas a physical slap in the face not so much.

[uponit7771]

36. We agree words are hurtful disproportional response make things worse

[meadowlander]

41. Well as long as a person not the target of the "joke" maybe found it funny for a second

we must be all good then.

Is this the "as long as the male, non-disabled person sitting next to them found it funny" defense?

[ripcord]

2. I laugh at people that are calling jokes about appearance art

That joke was exactly the same taunt as you would hear from any schoolyard bully

[unblock]

22. i got bullied plenty in the schoolyard. none of them ever joked that i looked like robert redford.

let's be clear. it wasn't an insult. it likened her to a beautiful woman in a strong lead role. that's a compliment, not an insult.

it *did* make call attention to her baldness, so it certainly may have made her feel embarrassed or uncomfortable, and we can certainly debate if that was over the line in that context. but it wasn't a taunt and it wasn't an insult.

schoolyard bullies do not embarrass their victims through compliments.


beyond that, what's different about this particular roasting joke as opposed to any of the other such jokes that have happened at the academy awards for years? if you want to say they shouldn't roast the celebrities at all, i'm fine with that; frankly i don't find roasting humor particularly amusing and in any event, not worth the hurt and the perpetuation of negative stereotypes. that said, it's a common form of comedy, and this particular joke was tame by the standards of that genre. if they're going to have roasting as part of the program, then this joke fit right in.

[LakeArenal]

28. That's your perception of what happened. Not everyone's.

[unblock]

32. Certainly true.

But no one has yet explained to me how this joke was different than all the other roasting jokes made at the academy awards over the years.

My guess is that those who feel that this joke is different either have a personal connection with baldness/alopecia (which I understand; I've never been into roasting humor, but my reaction to cancer jokes is very different ever since my wife's diagnosis) or they simply haven't seen all the other roasting jokes that insult people's heritage, physical characteristics, race, sex, gender, age, disease, disability, etc.

[Emile]

34. I still get teased about my baldness. The old man down the road tells everyone I use ivory soap for

shampoo and everyone gets a big laugh. Not once have I ever slapped him for his joke. If everybody acted out in violence to comedians, Bob Hope and Phyllis Diller would have been slapped silly? Nobody has ever compared me to Dwayne Johnson in their bald jokes, but if someone did I wouldn't be upset. Chris Rock joke was nothing to get upset about!

[Hugh_Lebowski]

4. Fun fact: words actually don't hurt if the one hearing chooses not to let them do so

And pretty much everyone has that power.

I, for one, use it all the time.

Obvs it can be tough if they come from a loved one, but some random person or casual acquaintance?

I find it's really not that hard.

[BlackSkimmer]

18. Will Smith is not a little kid.

He’s rich and powerful.

He could have taken Rock aside later for a word. He showed he’s a weak bully, sucker-slapping a man older and smaller than him who was only doing what all the hosts on these shows do.

Smith has some issues if he can’t control himself better than that.

I’m not a white male. I’m a gay female who came out in the 70s, and believe you me I’ve heard some hateful crap slung my way.

Never punched anyone. Ever.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

19. Okay, you're right, young people need to grow this ability it's not innate

Fair point.

And there are also some people that are so scarred from past experience or have mental health challenges that make it very difficult for them to learn this skill.

Generally-speaking though grown people should not, IMHO, let the words of some random stranger or even a casual acquaintance ... disturb them to any great extent.

To my thinking, nobody can 'MAKE you feel' XYZ ... you ALLOW them to 'make you feel' XYZ.

Aside from some exceptions as mentioned, one can almost always choose.

Figuring out that you have that ability, and developing it, and using it ... is very empowering IMHO. One of the best bits of wisdom I pulled from the rooms of AA, matter of fact.

[RockRaven]

23. One cannot "choose" in any moment how they feel. There is not a little ghost in the machine

who could have pulled emotion lever X instead of emotion lever Y at that instant. Contra causal free will is malarkey.

That said, there are many ways to develop different reactions to such events, but that's different than simply choosing in the moment to be hurt or not.

[LakeArenal]

29. Good thing you weren't a disabled or out LGBTQ teenager.

[meadowlander]

42. They do when you get fired or miss out on a promotion or have to work ten times harder

to establish credibility because other peoples' words and attitudes against you alienate potential friends and allies and poison the thinking of people who have power over you.

[dchill]

5. If the subject is "linguistic violence," then what about...

"Keep my wife's name out your fucking mouth!"
Uttered twice by the Oscar nominee?

[Bettie]

6. So, as I read it

no more comedy that references any human being.

No more comedy that references anything that someone might be offended about.

So, ultimately, that means no comedy at all because there is literally nothing in the entire universe that someone won't take offense to.

I had someone yell at me for saying "Good morning" because they had not, in fact, had a good morning. Perhaps we should just end all human communication to avoid causing offense.

Or maybe, just maybe, people could not go immediately to "that person was being malicious" in all cases.

[Jilly_in_VA]

9. That's hardly what I'm talking about

Could we just get real here?

[Bettie]

16. If anything that offends someone is 'linguistic violence'

and is to assumed to have been said with malice, simply because it causes offense or makes someone unhappy, then all communication is, by it's nature, violence, because there is no communication that is not offensive, and therefore violence, to someone.

So, no comedy, no movies, no speech, just a silent world with everyone in their own little box where they cannot cause offense to another...well, verbally.

Or maybe, if someone is offended, they could use their fucking words instead of jumping immediately to violence like a two year old.

And yes, I understand that using the word "fucking" is probably linguistic violence.

[LakeArenal]

30. Tell that to every disabled, LGBTQ,or the kid that is just different...

that are contemplating suicide right now because of taunting or bullying about their appearance, speech, look. or “difference”.

[Bettie]

37. That just adds to the idea that

no one should ever speak to anyone.

I was a weird kid. I wasn't the 'pretty' girl with all the nice clothes.
I was the kid who went to six different schools before the end of third grade.
I was a sexually and physically abused kid.
I was a poor kid in a town full of upper middle class kids.
I had plenty of taunting and plenty of times I wished I were dead.

And yet, I managed not to react with violence.

I'm fat now and I still manage not to be violent.

I also manage not to assume that everything that anyone says is malicious.

If one can only say things that are not offensive to anyone anywhere, well, there is no way to do that and continue to communicate with other humans because, believe it or not, most of us are imperfect.

Maybe you are perfect and have never, ever said the wrong thing, but the vast majority of people are not so flawless.

[robbob]

39. Sorry you went through all that Bettie

Hope you are in a good place now.

[Bettie]

43. Thanks

I'm in a great place. Yeah, I have some mood issues at times, but I also have three kids who seem to have turned out well and a husband who understands why I am kind of bitey sometimes.

[Emile]

44. Thank you Bettie for sharing that!

[LexVegas]

10. No more movies. No more tv shows. No more books.

Surveys to determine what every single person who listens or watches something may be offended by. Or their family or friends.

[ripcord]

20. Chris Rock's joke would have been right at home coming out of the mouth of a schoolyard bully

Its not like it was in any way clever, maybe his next comedy special can be filmed in front of a chemo clinic so he can make bald jokes all day.

[Bettie]

21. So, violence was an entirely rational and expected response

because you didn't like the joke. It appears he didn't even know about her condition, so honestly, it was a comment about a fashion choice.

So, are you in the no more comedy, ever column? Because that's where some seem to want to go. What follows then is zero interaction between people because someone might be offended by something. There is nothing that offends no one.

[LakeArenal]

31. I read that the are/were friends that knew of the condition

So what you think you know might not be what you think you know.

[Bettie]

38. I've read the opposite

so you may not be correct either.

[greenjar_01]

11. Fucks sake

[Emile]

13. +1 unbelievable that some people are making excuses for violence!

[Chautauquas]

12. Is physical violence an acceptable response to linguistic violence?

In most cases, I would say it is not. Smith, and/or Pinkett-Smith, could have confronted Rock about his comment without resorting to physical violence.

[Jm7603]

14. No, no, and just no

So we are all free to respond to any words that give us a sad with physical violence? What a joke!

[iemanja]

15. Because war in Ukraine

Is exactly the same as Putin insulting the country verbally.

[unblock]

17. while i welcome the discussion about verbal violence, this is hardly the best situation to use

i'm all for finding a silver lining in a raincloud, but i'm very reluctant to effectively turn will smith's entirely out of bounds, criminally violent act into the key for progress. there shouldn't be any upside to physical violence. i don't want people to go around smacking people in order to highlight the victim's bad behavior.

beyond that, this was a particularly complex situation, and any dialog about verbal violence or any comparable topic would be better served if focused on cleaner and simpler examples of the problem. this particular situation was complicated by wealth and celebrity, the social exceptions generally given to comedians, the tradition of roasting at the academy awards, the fact that will smith wasn't personally the target of the joke and his involvement brings is toxic masculinity and particular issues in his relationship with jada.


if we're going to talk about this joke, we should make it a conversation about comedic roasting in general. there's no reason for this joke to be off-limits and yet to say it's ok for comedians to tease people about their weight, height, accents, national origin, diseases, disabilities, race, sex, gender, religion, ethnicity, etc.

as a practical matter, while highlighting someone's baldness might be inappropriate in most contexts (especially if it's because a woman is suffering from a disease), the joke was very tame by the standards of roasting comedy. it complimented her through comparison to demi moore (widely recognized as beautiful and strong in that role) and it complimented her in her acting ability (suggesting she would be great starring in a sequel). the only offense possible was that it highlighted something jada wished wasn't highlighted. which, again, outside the context or comedic roasting is totally understandable.

but in a context where the celebrities go in understanding that they get roasted, particularly when in the front row, this isn't the greatest example of a horribly verbally violent joke.

as noted elsewhere, i saw a comedian mock people with cancer shortly after my wife got her diagnosis, and wish kids with peanut allergies would just go ahead and die aleady, which would include my daughter. personal experience aside, the academy award have seen more offensive jokes than this particular chris rock joke.

so it's really hard for me to see this incident as a good starting point for discussing verbal violence.

good and important topic, but deserving of a better focal point.

[BlackSkimmer]

24. This.

And I’ve seen a few clips where poor wee Will Smith was making fun of Arsenio Hall’s baldness in the past.

Would he have struck Amy Schumer if she had made the same joke? And would people be defending him if he had? I think it unlikely.

[unblock]

26. Yes. Whether his laughter was genuine or not, he was professional until he clocked jada's reaction

He knew the gig. Celebrities get roasted at the academy awards, and they're supposed to laugh in good cheer whether they're pissed or not.

And he did laugh, probably because, indeed, he's fished it out on air as well.

But when he saw jada's face, his Wild West patriarchical machismo took over he decided not only to use violence, but to pick a fight with a much shorter and smaller person who he knew wouldn't fight back.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

25. Well said my friend (nt)

[Sympthsical]

33. "Is what I'm about to write going to sound like parody?"

If the answer is yes, put the pen down or close the laptop.

The word violence continues to be cheapened beyond the point of usability. If everything is a form of violence, nothing is.

And I'll simply note these arguments are now surfacing and being put forward to diminish actual physical violence. So you've got that fun house mirror activity happening.

What a goofy, frivolous world some people live in.

According to the ideas rendered here, we basically have to shut down all entertainment. In fact, let's not even talk with one another anymore. So many words said that I don't like. I am surrounded by violence.

Remember, I am the victim here.

[Johnny2X2X]

35. Down the rabbit hole

Physical violence is violence, words are words, they can be harmful on their own, but violence is physical.

violence- behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

We can have discussions about hurtful language without having to diminish actual physical violence against people. I mean, where are we now? Your words were violent so I punched you in the nose and that's OK?

This is the stuff liberals are losing on.

[BlueTsunami2018]

40. Sticks and stones may break my bones.....

And all that. This is the kind of goofy shit that turns people off to our side.

[treestar]

46. +1

[treestar]

45. No. Mere words will not be elevated to the level

where any physical response is justified. It can be labeled "violence" or "verbal violence" all day and night, but the legal system won't ever recognize it that way. Nobody should be attacked physically for anything they say. It would lead to anarchy to do otherwise.

[MustLoveBeagles]

47. Locking thread

Open discussion of showbiz is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered across all newsmedia. This story is no longer very high profile nor is it being heavily covered across all news media. This doesn't meet the criteria for posting it in GD. I do think this is a discussion worth having. I suggest reposting this in the Showbiz Group.