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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWill Smith, Chris Rock, and when words are violent, too
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After Will Smith slapped Chris Rock at the Oscars for making a cruel joke about his wife Jada Pinkett Smith, the public spent most of its energy moralizing around Smith's physical assault. But some say Rock's language can be considered an act of violence, too.
Violence is not limited to slaps and kicks, according to experts who study violent speech and psychological harm. Violence can be the words we use to mock, categorize, exclude and control.
"I would put that joke on the continuum of linguistic violence," said William Gay, a professor at UNC Charlotte who studies the philosophy of language. "We make too light of words. ... A lesson that we can take from what happened is the need to be more reflective about what we're saying and the harms that it can cause."
The cultural conversation around violent speech tends to focus on the most egregious acts, including hate speech and slurs. It's the uproar when Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez says she was called a "f------ b----," by Rep. Ted Yoho on a staircase at the U.S. Capitol. It's the outrage when former President Donald Trump referred to Mexican immigrants as "rapists" and "animals." It's our indignation at the most horrific examples of online abuse, when Internet mobs are unleashed and reporters and academics and TikTok creators are inundated with rape and death threats.
But some linguists, psychologists and philosophers of language argue that in only condemning the most abusive speech acts, we excuse and dismiss the more subtle forms, including comedy. Rock may not have known how his joke would land, he may not have intended such harm and as a person of color belongs to a category that experiences rampant dehumanization through violent language, but linguists say his own speech act still deserves scrutiny.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2022/03/29/smith-slapped-chris-rock-but-some-say-joke-violent-too/7207103001/
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Let's talk about LANGUAGE that hurts people.....as a child, a woman, an LBTQIA+ person, a person of color, a disabled person.......words DO hurt
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)Jilly_in_VA
(9,940 posts)with the term "uncomfortable laughter"? Ever done it yourself? Or laughed at something and then realized it wasn't even remotely funny?
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)... committing battery in front of the cameras and then screaming like an 8 yr old seconds later.
If the GI Jane joke was THAT hurtful then its COWARDLY to show any kind of enablement for it.
LakeArenal
(28,797 posts)Just because its legal in US to saying any hurtful thing its not so everywhere.
Havent you ever known a Downs or LGBTQ individual?
Words can haunt one all their life whereas a physical slap in the face not so much.
uponit7771
(90,301 posts)meadowlander
(4,387 posts)we must be all good then.
Is this the "as long as the male, non-disabled person sitting next to them found it funny" defense?
ripcord
(5,253 posts)That joke was exactly the same taunt as you would hear from any schoolyard bully
unblock
(52,112 posts)let's be clear. it wasn't an insult. it likened her to a beautiful woman in a strong lead role. that's a compliment, not an insult.
it *did* make call attention to her baldness, so it certainly may have made her feel embarrassed or uncomfortable, and we can certainly debate if that was over the line in that context. but it wasn't a taunt and it wasn't an insult.
schoolyard bullies do not embarrass their victims through compliments.
beyond that, what's different about this particular roasting joke as opposed to any of the other such jokes that have happened at the academy awards for years? if you want to say they shouldn't roast the celebrities at all, i'm fine with that; frankly i don't find roasting humor particularly amusing and in any event, not worth the hurt and the perpetuation of negative stereotypes. that said, it's a common form of comedy, and this particular joke was tame by the standards of that genre. if they're going to have roasting as part of the program, then this joke fit right in.
LakeArenal
(28,797 posts)unblock
(52,112 posts)But no one has yet explained to me how this joke was different than all the other roasting jokes made at the academy awards over the years.
My guess is that those who feel that this joke is different either have a personal connection with baldness/alopecia (which I understand; I've never been into roasting humor, but my reaction to cancer jokes is very different ever since my wife's diagnosis) or they simply haven't seen all the other roasting jokes that insult people's heritage, physical characteristics, race, sex, gender, age, disease, disability, etc.
Emile
(22,457 posts)shampoo and everyone gets a big laugh. Not once have I ever slapped him for his joke. If everybody acted out in violence to comedians, Bob Hope and Phyllis Diller would have been slapped silly? Nobody has ever compared me to Dwayne Johnson in their bald jokes, but if someone did I wouldn't be upset. Chris Rock joke was nothing to get upset about!
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)And pretty much everyone has that power.
I, for one, use it all the time.
Obvs it can be tough if they come from a loved one, but some random person or casual acquaintance?
I find it's really not that hard.
Response to Hugh_Lebowski (Reply #4)
Post removed
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)Hes rich and powerful.
He could have taken Rock aside later for a word. He showed hes a weak bully, sucker-slapping a man older and smaller than him who was only doing what all the hosts on these shows do.
Smith has some issues if he cant control himself better than that.
Im not a white male. Im a gay female who came out in the 70s, and believe you me Ive heard some hateful crap slung my way.
Never punched anyone. Ever.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)Fair point.
And there are also some people that are so scarred from past experience or have mental health challenges that make it very difficult for them to learn this skill.
Generally-speaking though grown people should not, IMHO, let the words of some random stranger or even a casual acquaintance ... disturb them to any great extent.
To my thinking, nobody can 'MAKE you feel' XYZ ... you ALLOW them to 'make you feel' XYZ.
Aside from some exceptions as mentioned, one can almost always choose.
Figuring out that you have that ability, and developing it, and using it ... is very empowering IMHO. One of the best bits of wisdom I pulled from the rooms of AA, matter of fact.
RockRaven
(14,886 posts)who could have pulled emotion lever X instead of emotion lever Y at that instant. Contra causal free will is malarkey.
That said, there are many ways to develop different reactions to such events, but that's different than simply choosing in the moment to be hurt or not.
LakeArenal
(28,797 posts)meadowlander
(4,387 posts)to establish credibility because other peoples' words and attitudes against you alienate potential friends and allies and poison the thinking of people who have power over you.
dchill
(38,432 posts)"Keep my wife's name out your fucking mouth!"
Uttered twice by the Oscar nominee?
Bettie
(16,058 posts)no more comedy that references any human being.
No more comedy that references anything that someone might be offended about.
So, ultimately, that means no comedy at all because there is literally nothing in the entire universe that someone won't take offense to.
I had someone yell at me for saying "Good morning" because they had not, in fact, had a good morning. Perhaps we should just end all human communication to avoid causing offense.
Or maybe, just maybe, people could not go immediately to "that person was being malicious" in all cases.
Jilly_in_VA
(9,940 posts)Could we just get real here?
Bettie
(16,058 posts)and is to assumed to have been said with malice, simply because it causes offense or makes someone unhappy, then all communication is, by it's nature, violence, because there is no communication that is not offensive, and therefore violence, to someone.
So, no comedy, no movies, no speech, just a silent world with everyone in their own little box where they cannot cause offense to another...well, verbally.
Or maybe, if someone is offended, they could use their fucking words instead of jumping immediately to violence like a two year old.
And yes, I understand that using the word "fucking" is probably linguistic violence.
LakeArenal
(28,797 posts)that are contemplating suicide right now because of taunting or bullying about their appearance, speech, look. or difference.
Bettie
(16,058 posts)no one should ever speak to anyone.
I was a weird kid. I wasn't the 'pretty' girl with all the nice clothes.
I was the kid who went to six different schools before the end of third grade.
I was a sexually and physically abused kid.
I was a poor kid in a town full of upper middle class kids.
I had plenty of taunting and plenty of times I wished I were dead.
And yet, I managed not to react with violence.
I'm fat now and I still manage not to be violent.
I also manage not to assume that everything that anyone says is malicious.
If one can only say things that are not offensive to anyone anywhere, well, there is no way to do that and continue to communicate with other humans because, believe it or not, most of us are imperfect.
Maybe you are perfect and have never, ever said the wrong thing, but the vast majority of people are not so flawless.
robbob
(3,522 posts)Hope you are in a good place now.
I'm in a great place. Yeah, I have some mood issues at times, but I also have three kids who seem to have turned out well and a husband who understands why I am kind of bitey sometimes.
Emile
(22,457 posts)LexVegas
(6,023 posts)Surveys to determine what every single person who listens or watches something may be offended by. Or their family or friends.
ripcord
(5,253 posts)Its not like it was in any way clever, maybe his next comedy special can be filmed in front of a chemo clinic so he can make bald jokes all day.
Bettie
(16,058 posts)because you didn't like the joke. It appears he didn't even know about her condition, so honestly, it was a comment about a fashion choice.
So, are you in the no more comedy, ever column? Because that's where some seem to want to go. What follows then is zero interaction between people because someone might be offended by something. There is nothing that offends no one.
LakeArenal
(28,797 posts)So what you think you know might not be what you think you know.
Bettie
(16,058 posts)so you may not be correct either.
greenjar_01
(6,477 posts)Emile
(22,457 posts)Chautauquas
(4,435 posts)In most cases, I would say it is not. Smith, and/or Pinkett-Smith, could have confronted Rock about his comment without resorting to physical violence.
Jm7603
(165 posts)So we are all free to respond to any words that give us a sad with physical violence? What a joke!
iemanja
(53,010 posts)Is exactly the same as Putin insulting the country verbally.
unblock
(52,112 posts)i'm all for finding a silver lining in a raincloud, but i'm very reluctant to effectively turn will smith's entirely out of bounds, criminally violent act into the key for progress. there shouldn't be any upside to physical violence. i don't want people to go around smacking people in order to highlight the victim's bad behavior.
beyond that, this was a particularly complex situation, and any dialog about verbal violence or any comparable topic would be better served if focused on cleaner and simpler examples of the problem. this particular situation was complicated by wealth and celebrity, the social exceptions generally given to comedians, the tradition of roasting at the academy awards, the fact that will smith wasn't personally the target of the joke and his involvement brings is toxic masculinity and particular issues in his relationship with jada.
if we're going to talk about this joke, we should make it a conversation about comedic roasting in general. there's no reason for this joke to be off-limits and yet to say it's ok for comedians to tease people about their weight, height, accents, national origin, diseases, disabilities, race, sex, gender, religion, ethnicity, etc.
as a practical matter, while highlighting someone's baldness might be inappropriate in most contexts (especially if it's because a woman is suffering from a disease), the joke was very tame by the standards of roasting comedy. it complimented her through comparison to demi moore (widely recognized as beautiful and strong in that role) and it complimented her in her acting ability (suggesting she would be great starring in a sequel). the only offense possible was that it highlighted something jada wished wasn't highlighted. which, again, outside the context or comedic roasting is totally understandable.
but in a context where the celebrities go in understanding that they get roasted, particularly when in the front row, this isn't the greatest example of a horribly verbally violent joke.
as noted elsewhere, i saw a comedian mock people with cancer shortly after my wife got her diagnosis, and wish kids with peanut allergies would just go ahead and die aleady, which would include my daughter. personal experience aside, the academy award have seen more offensive jokes than this particular chris rock joke.
so it's really hard for me to see this incident as a good starting point for discussing verbal violence.
good and important topic, but deserving of a better focal point.
BlackSkimmer
(51,308 posts)And Ive seen a few clips where poor wee Will Smith was making fun of Arsenio Halls baldness in the past.
Would he have struck Amy Schumer if she had made the same joke? And would people be defending him if he had? I think it unlikely.
unblock
(52,112 posts)He knew the gig. Celebrities get roasted at the academy awards, and they're supposed to laugh in good cheer whether they're pissed or not.
And he did laugh, probably because, indeed, he's fished it out on air as well.
But when he saw jada's face, his Wild West patriarchical machismo took over he decided not only to use violence, but to pick a fight with a much shorter and smaller person who he knew wouldn't fight back.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)Sympthsical
(9,028 posts)If the answer is yes, put the pen down or close the laptop.
The word violence continues to be cheapened beyond the point of usability. If everything is a form of violence, nothing is.
And I'll simply note these arguments are now surfacing and being put forward to diminish actual physical violence. So you've got that fun house mirror activity happening.
What a goofy, frivolous world some people live in.
According to the ideas rendered here, we basically have to shut down all entertainment. In fact, let's not even talk with one another anymore. So many words said that I don't like. I am surrounded by violence.
Remember, I am the victim here.
Johnny2X2X
(18,967 posts)Physical violence is violence, words are words, they can be harmful on their own, but violence is physical.
violence- behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
We can have discussions about hurtful language without having to diminish actual physical violence against people. I mean, where are we now? Your words were violent so I punched you in the nose and that's OK?
This is the stuff liberals are losing on.
BlueTsunami2018
(3,480 posts)And all that. This is the kind of goofy shit that turns people off to our side.
treestar
(82,383 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)where any physical response is justified. It can be labeled "violence" or "verbal violence" all day and night, but the legal system won't ever recognize it that way. Nobody should be attacked physically for anything they say. It would lead to anarchy to do otherwise.
MustLoveBeagles
(11,580 posts)Open discussion of showbiz is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered across all newsmedia. This story is no longer very high profile nor is it being heavily covered across all news media. This doesn't meet the criteria for posting it in GD. I do think this is a discussion worth having. I suggest reposting this in the Showbiz Group.