Short of a nuclear weapon, what can Putin do to us??? He's got nuthin' right?

[WarGamer]

Some people seem to think it's a black and white situation. We fly CAP over Ukraine and launch cruise missiles targeting Russian supply routes.

"What's Putin going to do, nuke us?"

The moment the US starts killing Russian soldiers... the floodgates open.

Remember the Moskva? And those Neptune missiles that struck it going around 650mph?

Well the Russians have Anti-ship missiles that travel Mach 10. They're barely detectable and certainly unstoppable.

Some Russian subs are equipped with them right now. As in... RIGHT NOW.

It doesn't take a military genius to acknowledge that RIGHT NOW there are Russian subs shadowing US carrier groups around the world.

That's a given. There are Zircon hypersonic ASM's in firing range (1000km) of the USS Harry S. Truman in the Mediterranean RIGHT NOW.

So when the US launches attacks... 5000 US sailors die.

Think long and hard when your heart and emotions get out in front of your head.

[samsingh]

1. i would have thought the sanctions would have bankrupted putin by now.

[WarGamer]

3. The sanctions aren't a short term solution.

[Sherman A1]

6. Precisely

Some fail to understand that point.

[48656c6c6f20]

52. Yeah you're right

North Korea. So sanctions work?

More than 70 years
North Korea is one of the most heavily sanctioned countries in the world. It has been subject to US and international sanctions for more than 70 years.

[Phoenix61]

8. It's amazing what creative accounting can hide. Think Enron. nt

[48656c6c6f20]

2. I hear Pootin is going to demand the reinstatement

Of TFG or he'll use nukes.

[WarGamer]

4. I hear the grey skin lizard people planted human seeds on Earth 8 million years ago.

[48656c6c6f20]

22. I hear people believe that sanctions

Can deter a madman also believe in unicorns.

[Sherman A1]

5. Well, there is that and much, much more

But those pesky facts seem to be not in the narrative of many who want US boots on the ground in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Midwestern Democrat]

59. I saw some guy on MSNBC advocating for a no-fly zone dismissing the fears of starting WWIII

by saying "We're already in WWIII"!!!. This is the mindset of these people.

[Zeitghost]

7. Well said

I'm surprised at how many Hawks we have around here.

[WarGamer]

9. 100%. nt

[lapfog_1]

10. so what you are saying is that we should locate of their "boomer" subs and take them out

first and nuke every mobile launcher in Russia. plus everything west of the Urals.

Russians are war criminals... and Russian supporters. They should all face war crimes tribunals in the Hague.

or do you think that is all a bit too extreme?

[ColinC]

11. My guess is the latter. Clearly Russia can do anything they want because they can do things to us.

The US only attacks other countries when there is no direct risk at home. That will change eventually, but not before it is too late to prevent millions of ours and their deaths. The later we act boldly the higher the stakes in doing anything or nothing.

[marie999]

76. It doesn't matter which country starts WWIII, everyone loses.

[Mariana]

16. Few of those who want to go to war with Russia use the words "go to war with Russia".

They prefer to use euphemisms, in order to disguise exactly what it is they want.

[Mariana]

19. If a NATO country is attacked we will certainly go to war with Russia.

That is as it should be, and I'm sure that President Biden has been preparing for such a scenario.

I was mostly talking about the people who have been calling for such things as "military intervention" and "direct involvement" as if that means something completely different than "war with Russia".

[Chuuku Davis]

13. Russia doesn't have hypersonic missiles

[ColinC]

17. ?

Are they lying?

[Chuuku Davis]

24. Yes

If they had one that worked, they would have shown it.
Their tech sucks.

[WarGamer]

30. Read

President Joe Biden confirmed Monday night that Russia has used a hypersonic missile in Ukraine, saying it’s “the only thing that they can get through with absolute certainty.”

"It doesn't make that much difference, except it's almost impossible to stop it. There's a reason they’re using it," Biden said at the Business Roundtable’s CEO Quarterly Meeting in Washington, D.C.

[speak easy]

47. 'If they had one that worked, they would have shown it.' - They have

Video: Russia launches hypersonic missile claiming Mach 7 speed
https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/07/video-russia-launches-hypersonic-missile-claiming-mach-7-speed/

[Happy Hoosier]

25. They are developing them...

… but so far have only demonstrated them in isolated and fairly controlled conditions. The Russians have a long history of claiming capabilities that exist only as prototypes.

I work in military aviation R&D. There is a huge gap between a working prototype and a combat ready system.

[WarGamer]

29. Come on guys... they just used one in Ukraine days ago...

President Biden CONFIRMED IT.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pentagon-demurs-biden-confirms-russia-fired-hypersonic-missile/story?id=83587994

After Pentagon demurs, Biden confirms Russia fired hypersonic missile: Ukraine Day 26

President Joe Biden confirmed Monday night that Russia has used a hypersonic missile in Ukraine, saying it’s “the only thing that they can get through with absolute certainty.”

"It doesn't make that much difference, except it's almost impossible to stop it. There's a reason they’re using it," Biden said at the Business Roundtable’s CEO Quarterly Meeting in Washington, D.C.

[uponit7771]

35. Read reply to question ...

[harumph]

37. They have them - but they suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

[uponit7771]

34. Yes, all missiles are hypersonic or near it Russia is literally just launching a missile from a ...

... mach 3 jet and calling it hypersonic.

Imagine the Trump administration running a country for 20 years, that's Russia

[Poiuyt]

14. I worry about cyber-attacks

We can get Russia back, but we're much more vulnerable than they are.

[USALiberal]

21. Source?

[Chuuku Davis]

26. Negative

[Deuxcents]

27. Our electric grids..water sources..communication towers..

All out in the open. I read articles about our vulnerability and warnings years ago.

[SmallFry]

15. Truman..

Fresh off some upgrades.

[Happy Hoosier]

23. Caution is always advised....

… but I think you are still vastly overestimating Russian capabilities.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

31. And I would venture to say thar every Russian sub anywhere

close to a US Carrier Battle Group is tailed by a US or NATO Hunter/Killer sub with orders to sink it if there is any move towards a launch.

[WarGamer]

32. Maybe...

Bottom line, this isn't our fight. Let the Ukrainians fight, arm them.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

33. Agreed. nt

[speak easy]

48. Arming them effectively does mean training them.

There's only so much old Soviet equipment still lying around.

[Angleae]

54. Not maybe. Every US carrier group is escorted by at least one attack sub.

[Angleae]

55. "Bottom line, this isn't our fight. Let the Ukrainians fight, arm them."

Bottom line, this isn't our fight. Let the Estonians fight, arm them.
Bottom line, this isn't our fight. Let the Lithuanians fight, arm them.
Bottom line, this isn't our fight. Let the Poles fight, arm them.
Bottom line, this isn't our fight. Let the Germans fight, arm them.
Bottom line, this isn't our fight. Let the French fight, arm them.

At what point is it our fight?

[Mariana]

58. Refer to the North Atlantic Treaty, Article 5.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm

[marie999]

67. I know what Article 5 is.

So NATO will risk WWIII to save 1.3 million people but will not risk WWIII to save 43.3 million people. I doubt that. The countries in NATO are self-serving countries as are all countries. The US didn't even enter WWII until it was attacked.

[SomewhereInTheMiddle]

71. National self-interest ...

From a national self-interest perspective should we fail to honor our NATO treaty obligations to defend other signatories we will take such a hit in our diplomatic reputation no country will be willing to treat with us for a long time – at least not without significant immediate inducements. That is the self-interested reason to attack Russia if they attack a NATO nation.

If Ukraine had joined NATO earlier, then we would now be at war. As they are not a NATO nation, we do not have that obligation driving us to put US lives at risk. We are still trying to support them with means other than military, making full use of the diplomatic, informational, and economic elements of national power.

At least that is my take on it. I may be wrong.

[marie999]

62. It is our fight. Ukraine is a democracy invaded by a dictatorship.

[uponit7771]

36. Russia does not have true hypersonic missiles, they're playing with words as usual. Every ...

... missile can be "hypersonic" if it was launched from a Mach 3 jet.

[sarisataka]

38. 40 cruise missiles

Into DC. For starters.

[Cosmocat]

39. He doesn't need to fire a shot (GOP)

Hes been taking us down full on wo firing a single shot for over half a decade now

[Celerity]

40. Multiple EMP's

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1124730.pdf

RUSSIA:
EMP THREAT

The Russian Federation’s Military Doctrine, Plans, and Capabilities for
Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack

Dr. Peter Vincent Pry
Executive Director

EMP Task Force on National and Homeland Security

January 2021

[DemocraticPatriot]

43. My God... I am reading through your pdf, and this is deeply frightening...

Quotes:

from https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1124730.pdf


"Hypersonic Warheads: New HEMP Threat

"Russian development of hypersonic missile warheads is a dangerous new dimension of the nuclear
and HEMP threat. Great speed (Mach 20, twenty times the speed of sound) and flying a flat
trajectory, skimming along the top of the upper atmosphere, significantly reduces visibility to U.S.
early-warning satellites and radars, while also reducing arrival time. Maneuvering makes
hypersonic warheads more difficult to track and intercept, virtually impossible to intercept with
existing U.S. National Missile Defenses. Former senior Defense Department official Dr. Mark
Schneider writes, “The main reason for Russian hypersonic missiles is a nuclear surprise attack
and America has no defense against it.” 34

"Hypersonic weapons are potentially a new avenue for surprise nuclear HEMP attack that could
defeat deterrence. We cannot see the attack coming and may not know against whom to retaliate,
especially if HEMP attack blinds satellites and radars needed for early-warning and threat
assessment.

"Hypersonically delivered HEMP attack could win World War III with a single electronic blow."


One nuclear warhead exploded at appropriate height can wipe out most of the electricity in North America, along with all of our modern vehicles, almost all communications, computers, the internet, and all modern electronics-- and even many of our weapons systems, "particularly land-based missiles"... We would be reduced to the pre-industrial age in an instant, but without many horses...

This paper notes deliberate EMP experiments that the Soviet Union conducted over their own territory in 1961-1962, the results of most which were never made public. It seems that they know more about EMP than we do. It also notes that they have various EMP-specialized nuclear weapons ready to use, but the United States has no such specialized weapons (although EMP effects can be produced with standard nuclear weapons exploded at high altitude over a target area).


I won't sleep so well after reading this pdf report, but anyone interested in EMP (electromagnetic pulse) should read this.


Of course, the end effect of such a weapon being detonated over North America would be guaranteed mass starvation, without any nuclear winter...

[doc03]

41. I have heard more than one of the retired Generals say that Russia would have

to resort to nuclear weapons because their military would be destroyed in short order if NATO gets involved.
You think we don't know where their SUBS are? I also think we have many weapons we don't know of.

[Willto]

42. WOW!

Holy over enamored of Russia Batman! How about their soldiers? Are they 9 foot tall and able to kill 30 US soldiers with just a machete as our puny American bullets bounce off their super soldier chests? LOL! Somebody has been watching too much Russian TV.

The hyper sonic missiles are a propaganda fraud. And do you really think that our hunter attack subs don't know where every Russian sub is located? If an all out war were to break out between NATO and Russia within an hour there would be Russian subs strewn across the ocean floor like beer cans at the bottom of a swimming pool after a Delta Chi rush party.

Russia is a shell of what the Soviet Union used to be. California, Texas, and New York each on their own have a bigger GDP than Russia. Russia ranks behind Canada and Italy. They are about to be passed by South Korea. Russia's GDP is 1.48 trillion. The US GDP is 21 trillion. The combined GDP of all NATO nations is 43.5 trillion. There is 144 million people in Russia. There are 946 million people in NATO countries. Trust me Russia may huff and bluff but they don't want a conventional war with NATO.

The only real threat they pose to the US is nuclear and that route is of course literal suicide.

[lagomorph777]

56. Love your writing style!

Welcome to DU!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. Wrong!!! They're ten feet tall.

[Kaleva]

44. Navy has very sophisticated ECM systems & hypersonic missiles can't hit what they can't see.

The hypersonic missile has to have some kind of guidance system which can be jammed or deceived.

Radio waves travel at the speed of light while hypersonic missiles travel about 3800 mph.

Not saying hypersonic missiles aren't a threat, they are a serious threat, but they aren't the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse some of the press makes them out to be.

The nations that should be very worried about hypersonic missiles are Russia and China who don't have anywhere near the sophisticated EW capability of the US and thus have no defense at all against such weapons.

[womanofthehills]

60. Supposedly - all our anti-missle warning systems might not see hypersonic weapons

That is concerning.



Military.com | By Blake Stilwell

The age of Russian superweapons is upon us -- at least that's what President Vladimir Putin wants us to believe.
And they are cause for concern because the United States' traditional early warning systems might not be able to see those weapons coming.

Hypersonic weapons such as Russia's 3M22 Zircon fly so fast and low -- at speeds of up to Mach 6 and at a low atmospheric-ballistic trajectory -- that they can penetrate traditional anti-missile defense systems.

The missile flies with an advanced fuel that the Russians say gives it a range of up to 1,000 kilometers. And it's so fast that the air pressure in front of the weapon forms a plasma cloud as it moves, absorbing radio waves and making it practically invisible to active radar systems.

U.S. Aegis missile interceptor systems require 8-10 seconds of reaction time to intercept incoming attacks. In those 8-10 seconds, the Russian Zircon missiles will already have traveled 20 kilometers, and the interceptor missiles do not fly fast enough to catch up.

https://www.military.com/equipment/weapons/why-russias-hypersonic-missiles-cant-be-seen-radar.html

[berniesandersmittens]

45. Smallpox

Last I knew, only two laboratories had smallpox specimens. US and Russia.


Russia's psyops has already split the US in half.
Cyberwarfare is a real and constant threat.

[Buckeyeblue]

46. If Russia tried to infect us with small pox

They would kill off all of the antivaxx supporters.

[womanofthehills]

61. I believe the US stopped routine smallpox vaxx in 1971

That's like 50 yrs ago.

[Buckeyeblue]

49. Ultimately this is the existential decision countries have to make when they enter into a conflict

Are the stakes high enough to risk human life? W decided that going after stashes of WMD that he knew didn't exist were worth the lives of our military.

It's very hard to watch what is happening to Ukraine and not want to see Putin's head on a stick, to not want to directly enter the fight to help.

And I'm sure if we thought the risks were low, we would have already done so. My guess is that we know Russia would probably try to target civilians either in Europe or the US. And while we think our defenses are strong, there is a good chance we can't stop all of them.

So then the question changes. Is a military intervention in Ukraine worth the risk that some school in a costal town may be destroyed?

Zelenskyy is asking for other countries to directly intervene. His plea is devastatingly heartfelt. And what the Russians have done is indisputable. And yet I get it. No one wants to march into WWIII.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. The world needs more Russia is ten feet tall threads

[themaguffin]

51. I wouldn't discount cyber warfare

[Volaris]

53. Yeah, that's a HELL of a Big Short...

MAYBE there's a way that Congress orders troops into Ukraine, and MAYBE there's a way that Biden makes that happen without making that happen, and MAYBE there's a way to do all THAT, that DOESNT involve the rest of NATO...

But in the end, Putin won't give a FUCK about any of those maybe-s, and that a hell of a gamble. 5000 sailors on a US Carrier Group, will be the BEGINNING of that memorial...

[marie999]

63. What should we do if Russia invades Estonia which it will do if it wins in Ukraine?

[Mariana]

64. President Biden has said "We will defend every inch of NATO territory."

I don't believe he lied when he said that.

[dwayneb]

69. And we should defend NATO

Just as we learned in WW1 and WW2, we cannot sit back and allow an aggressor like Russia to continue unopposed - although we should not send troops or planes into a non-NATO country, that is obvious.

Lithuania, a NATO country, is likely to be Putin's next target, since it shares a long border with Belarus and it provides a key port on the Baltic Sea.

Sounds like Finland and Sweden are going to join NATO as well - another possible front but less likely.

Our biggest risk is that a future "Republican" administration would abandon NATO in favor of allowing Putin to continue his rampage. There is little doubt in my mind that conversations to that effect have take place between Putin and sewer dweller Trump.

Putin will do everything in his power to destroy us from within, the USSR promised that decades ago and they have not forgotten that vow.

[marie999]

72. In WWII we did sit back and not get involved militarily until we were attacked.

I would think Estonia first because its army has only 6,700 soldiers and then just go South through the rest of the Baltic countries. Putin watches all the torture and rape of women and children and thinks that since NATO doesn't really care about the genocide because NATO isn't sending in troops. He believes that they won't send in troops to help the Baltic countries, and that Article 5 is just a piece of paper.

[dwayneb]

74. And in WW2 we were almost too late

Hitler came damned close to completing his work on the A-bomb. If he had, there is a very good chance we'd be under the boot of a German dictator at this point.

Let's not make the same mistake with Putin. Our freedoms are worth whatever price we have to pay.

Putin respects only one thing - and that is brute strength. NATO has to build a wall and they have to defend it to the death. Because if we do not we will lose everything that we have fought and died for. And who wants to bring children into a world where a vile soulless dictator controls their every action and thought?

[Volaris]

75. That's a different IF, tho...

If Estonia is NATO ground, Biden's RIGHT: NOT ONE INCH.

[Kingofalldems]

65. Should we just give up and let Putin do what he wants?

[WarGamer]

66. I've answered that question from YOU, KOAD... like 10x

Did you forget?

Send weapons, do everything possible to help the Ukrainians fight the Russians.

Except getting us into WW3.

[dwayneb]

68. WW3 is coming, whether we want it or not

Here's an excellent interview from Fareed Zakharia with a former Russian Oligarch who knows Putin well.

In his opinion - nothing will stop Putin except force. And the Ukraine is only the beginning, since it is Putin's aspiration to rebuild the Soviet Union.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2022/04/03/exp-gps-0403-ukraianian-resistance-drove-putin-mad.cnn/video/playlists/intl-ukraine/

We should not be sending troops or planes into Ukraine at this point since it is not a NATO country.

But we better be bolstering boots on the ground in the surrounding NATO countries, and we better be deploying our Naval resources in the surrounding seas, because this will NOT end with Ukraine.

The Baltics will likely be Putin's next target, once Ukraine is well under control. Another potential front might be Finland and Sweden who are ready to join NATO

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/13/finland-and-sweden-could-apply-for-nato-membership-in-weeks

We won't be able to avoid WW3 unless we decide to cede those countries to Russia. This is reality. Just as we could not avoid WW1 or WW2.

[Hortensis]

70. Cyber expert on Russian cyber aggression: "Here we go." "This is very serious."

Perlroth appears on Rachel sometimes, which is where I heard this the other night:

Link to tweet

[Iggo]

73. But I want what I want!!!

Wah.