Courtesy of Wonkette:

[evolves]

https://www.wonkette.com/anti-abortion-misogynists-excited-for-whores-to-see-consequences

The incels and the "christian" right are beside themselves with glee:

To be fair, the incels are much more explicit about what they want — and only because they've thought it out more. They're saying the quiet part out loud. A lot of people assume that what they want is just to get laid, but that's not exactly true. Sure they want to get laid, but what they are most angry about is a post-sexual revolution society where women have choices and can choose "not them." Where they can have sex with whomever they want, spend their youth the way they want, and then get married later if they want. They believe that without these choices, without the ability to decide when they want to have children, women would be forced to marry young, their employment opportunities would be limited, and they would essentially be forced into loveless marriages and redistributed more evenly among the male population.

As one of them explained:

Roe v Wade is a single domino that will lead to many others falling

as Roe v Wade falls, a nationwide ban on abortion follows, then contraceptive use goes down, then sodomy is illegal, then extramarital relations are illegal

eventually, destroying the cock carousel and women fucking dozens of the top 5% of men, while leaving the rest to beta bux or rot

Roe v Wade is the first step in the return to old tradition, as it had been for thousands of years .. where every kind and hard working man will be guaranteed a wife and a family for their merits and character

so if you don't support what happened recently, you're a cuck
These people may be more crude than your average anti-abortion creep, but they all want the same thing.

[Hortensis]

1. We need more, intelligent discussion of the role of "the involuntary celebate"

generations in what's happening. So far almost all pop discussion has been about the raging of a small proportion of viciously antagonistic and deeply flawed creeps who'd always drive away females who didn't run first.

Yet, what IS the effect on society when millions of decent guys, who always assumed that growing up and having wives, children, homes was their birthright, are closed out? Who never imagined life without, but are.

Of course there're effects. Of course society has not met what must be a deeply destabilizing problem that has exploded in size over recent decades: hoards of men denied their birthright roles in society.

One thing we should assume in finally looking at this, though: even if unhappiness at things gone so "wrong" moved many of them right, resentful, angry (how many, how much?), the vast majority are not trying to destroy society so they can someday chain a woman to their beds and exact revenge. That's not what they want.

[Hugin]

4. IMO, they brought it on themselves...

Last edited Sat Jul 2, 2022, 02:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Setting up a system where females had to overperform to compete in an all stakes game.

They created generations of women (and by extension variants of genders not like what they see themselves as “alpha males”) who are quite clear headed and capable.

This resulted in a whole lot of people who not only know exactly what they want. They are better at getting it. An example of natural selection. Adapt or perish.

Now, they are attempting to put the genie back in the bottle.

Ultimately they will fail. The attempt is going to be very ugly and will fail.

[Hortensis]

9. Really? Someone like YOU did all that?

Please fix it then. YOU have a duty.

[Hugin]

11. Where did I say it was someone like me?

The people who inadvertently created this system are very different from me.

[Hortensis]

12. :) Seriously.

[Unwind Your Mind]

28. I understand what you're saying Hugin

Because I am one of those women. When I started working 30 plus years ago, I learned quickly that I had to be twice as good as the guys to get any respect.

And, here I am. Independent and unwilling to take nonsense from anyone really

Those guys would hate me

[Sympthsical]

5. But that isn't really what has been happening

What has been happening more and more is people checking out of the dating system entirely. I'd venture that a lot of this is economic. People who cannot afford homes or achieve the same economic footing as their parents are much more likely to delay settling down and having children.

But the decline has been real:

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2022/03/31/sex-decline-americans

There are probably other factors involved. The wide availability of porn. More people living with their parents and moving out later due to the economics. More difficulty navigating the dating realm (i.e. people think online apps making dating easier, when it really makes rejecting people easier).

There's a whole host of sociological issues in play, and the ones people highlight will usually coincide with whatever politics or biases they're pushing (I'm sticking with the economic one).

It's interesting to observe though. I always wonder what a place like China will do, where there is a major population imbalance between men and women. Those men will have to find something to do.

Incels are . . . incels. They exist. They're a vanishingly small portion of the population. However, they have online gathering points, are easily found, so they can be held up to write articles . . . well, exactly like this one. It's an easy tear.

Admittedly, this is more an intellectual observational exercise for me. I'm a gay man. Once phone apps hit, getting sex has been about as difficult as ordering a pizza. Pfft, and people kept telling me I'd be happier being straight.

[Hortensis]

10. Yes, what's happening is very complex, with many contributing factors.

What doesn't take advanced degrees and a microscope to recognize, though, is that when society fails large groups, the wellbeing and stability of society itself are endangered. We're talking about the sudden development of large numbers of males without mates, unable to reproduce, without their own families to care for and care about them. Basic imperatives.

[Sympthsical]

14. Within that China context

I wanted to find a link before that reply to you but couldn't manage it.

However, there were studies done by history scholars, and what they showed again and again is that any society that has a large number of idle males without purpose often have turbulent times ahead of them. And this extended across all kinds of societies in all kinds of different time periods. It often resulted in people getting their war on.

We are, through economics, technology, and social changes, getting into this area, so I definitely agree with you. Where China comes in is that there has been concern that the government will work harder to create external threats and enemies in order to channel this emerging energy (better idle aggression funneled outward than having them begin side eyeing the government).

When settling down and having a family gets delayed, where that sense of purpose and direction goes in our technologically advanced society is anyone's guess. We can't all be taking vacations and posting about it to Instagram. But conversely, I think technology is filling some of the holes. Porn, gaming, social media. My thinking is evolving a little on how it all fits together. I think social media are the worst thing to happen to American society in the last 50 years.

But maybe it's one of the major things keeping it all contained. A facsimile of having a purpose and social life. I think it's why our politics are stagnating. The ability to pressure for change seems highly dissipated. Forget the 60s, look at the LGBT community and how it reacted in the wake of the AIDS crisis. I don't see anyone managing that kind of sustained action any time soon. Not even with Roe. It'll be piecemeal, local, and social media'd, but less actively participatory.

People are increasingly sated with the illusion of having "done something" so they're less motivated to actually go do something tangible with tangible results. "Guys, I changed my Facebook avatar. I have done all I can do. With my last life's breath in the Glorious Struggle, I have clicked retweet. Let the spirit of the revolution live on with every like."

It's an area I think about often, and my ideas are constantly evolving. Right now, "I don't know" floats to the top. I have ideas about how things are working, but I'm not sure what the next fifteen years will look like.

So maybe all of this is keeping a cap on what would have ordinarily already been a volatile situation.

[Hortensis]

17. :) Our glorious struggles. Interesting and have to agree with a lot.

I wonder if you're right that the overall effect of social media is more of "dissipating" pressure for change. Wouldn't be surprised if it tested out that way, but with wide variations over different pressures. Definitely that "illusion of having done something" has to be real, but does it outweigh actual change effect? No doubt it's been/being studied sixty ways from Sunday, uncovering more questions.

It's easy to believe these distractions may have been helping keep a cap on what might be even more volatile, even if failing ultimately. The usual way of dealing with unfilled needs is to sublimate them to something also fulfilling and achievable, after all. Hobbies. Retweeting and designing meaningful avatars replacing working on cars with friends.

[Sympthsical]

21. One big emerging technological trend is parasocial relationships

Humans have always had them. Generally we've expressed them with our obsession with celebrities and entertainment. We become fans rather than constituents of various politicians. But broadband Internet with streaming live video has been a game changer.

If you look at the user base of services like Twitch, you see skyrocketing growth. People - very, very typically young males - hang out all day watching their favorite streamers play games, watch videos alongside them, or run commentary. Sometimes you'll see musicians or ASMR artists or what have you. But the basic human need for social interaction is being increasingly sublimated into these TikTok/YouTube/Twitch personalities.

I'm not immune to this either. I moved to a far burb a month before the pandemic hit, and I have yet to really recover the much busier social life I used to enjoy in the city. I listen to ASMR videos when doing homework or gaming. I sometimes watch reaction videos to movies or television shows I watch that my partner doesn't. I have a group of reaction YouTubers where I'll watch a show where there's a major twist or development and can't wait to see how they react.

It becomes a simulated social relationship. I intellectually know it isn't the same as going to dinner with my actual friends. Yet, it scratches that social interaction itch just enough.

Mix in online gaming with others and Discord channels for your interests, and you can and do have people who never really need to leave the house in order to have a fairly involved daily social life. Mix in porn or some camsex, and you're good to go. It's cheaper, too.

I think I'm a little too old to replace most of my entire social life with things like that - too used to going out. But I observe others who seem to chug along subsisting mainly on these parasocial interactions. It is a lot less hassle. And if you're socially anxious or awkward, it's a lifesaver.

Sometimes I wonder if it is slowing social evolution in its tracks, inhibiting individual growth.

As you can see, I can discuss this stuff for hours.

[Hortensis]

31. :) And you know a lot about it. I was worried about a grandson who

likes to watch gaming reaction videos, at least he'll often show me something he liked when I visit. He's, surprise, taken up chess, though, plays on line yes, but I was really happy to hear that he much prefers his in-person chess club with physical boards, which is unfortunately out for the summer, but he keeps in touch with a couple of members -- whom he actually knows.

If this high court were to find we had no right to a free and open internet, and providers and the state were to decide to offer what they wanted customers to see, wonder how those participating in virtual socialization would react, and how the offerings would change for what purpose. Something best to stay speculative and not have to find out.

[msfiddlestix]

20. +1

[Hugin]

30. I guess we could build a few pyramids.

From what you relate that may have been a mechanism to vent all of this idle male energy in ancient societies. Of course, they didn't realize that was the effect. They did it because it was a thing to do.

[plimsoll]

13. So what exactly is:

hoards of men denied their birthright roles in society.

The incels are sort of the extreme end of the MRM, and it's odd how the incels use the language of the pickup artist crowd isn't it.

Do I think that the decisions of the 1980's through today have blighted the prospects of younger Americans. Yes. Is this the fault of women? No, they are as much victims of the environment as the men.

This birthright you're talking about was never a birthright, it was a presumption of entitlement. Yes, I'm from a privileged background and position relatively speaking, but I see the children of my peers in that privileged background making these arguments. Things have changed, but they want want to live "Leave it to Beaver," and that world just can't work anymore. In addition to the pretty obvious suppressions of women's aspirations required, the economics of the '80s and '90s destroyed much of the broad spectrum middle class affluence portrayed in those sitcoms. We have a cargo cult middle class at this point. They have the goods, but not the security.

So a great deal of what they're complaining about is that women are not attracted to men who can't and don't seem interested in developing the skills to help provide a stable secure environment for a family.

And here's an interesting note, there is supposedly an increase in the number of vasectomies being scheduled. I sincerely doubt the men who are doing so are from the MRM, but that "I don't give a shit if you get pregnant" attitude is probably exactly why they're celibate in the first place.

[Hortensis]

15. You're focusing on the pop-culture "incel" slur. I'm talking about

a society wide demographic of males who expected to marry/have partners and are unable to. Your theory that "they" are probably rejects because they "don't give a shit" if women get pregnant is probably not a supportable theory, especially since so many do want a woman to get pregnant with their child. It's also a slur on a lot of nice Democrats; speaking of which, DUers probably include a proportional representation.

It might be valid to call Americans who always just assumed they'd grow up and get married and have children privileged in comparison with homeless people in Delhi. But we're comparing them with their fathers and grandfathers. And when they were young men society didn't have this particular problem. in fact, the more usual was a surplus of women looking for husbands because so many men died in wars, and also from accidents.

[plimsoll]

19. But that world their fathers and grandfathers lived in is gone.

We've killed it, ending Roe won't make it come back. I don't assume they're rejects, I assume the environment they're living in has changed and they're not adapting to the changing reality. Their behavior is maladaptive from a reproductive standpoint. The median age that women have their first child tends to increase in periods of economic scarcity or turbulence. For many children of middle class families the degree of security they can provide a partner has decreased since the 1980s. That impacts women as well as men. The response for women tends to be delay having children. Overturning Roe won't change that calculus, but it will make women more wary of having sex.

So, there a problem in our society, but that "society wide demographic of males who expected to marry/have partners and are unable to" extends to women. Privileging the male perspective on this is probably part of the problem.

[keep_left]

26. Angela Nagle has written extensively about the incels, MRA/PUAs, and the alt-right.

Her book, Kill All Normies: Online Culture Wars From 4Chan and Tumblr To Trump and the Alt-Right isn't without criticism (some on the left have found it problematic, with sloppy research). However, it was probably the first serious look at the problem from outside the alt-right social media spaces of 4Chan/8Chan/Reddit/etc.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/kill-all-normies-angela-nagle/1126407450

Nagle also gave a talk in Sydney in 2018:

https://www.centreforideas.com/article/angela-nagle-kill-all-normies

[Hortensis]

32. :) Hey, I remember her. I'm sure she has some worthwhile

observations about the denizens and evolution of whatever the alt-right is called these days, the "chans" and what's come after, but I never got into even her very short book because I didn't recognize and certainly couldn't agree with her view of what I'm part of, so I didn't think I should trust her analysis of the alt-right, incels, etc. (A bit like reading Ann Coulter's take on liberals but feeling a duty to keep your mind open for wisdom.)

In this case though, Nagle focuses on extremists and extreme reactionaries, including the pop-definition "incels." Certainly always worth learning more about them, but I'm talking about the "normies" who vastly outnumber the extremists and must be having significant societal effects, that is, the involuntaries who are and want to be what they always thought normal was.

[EYESORE 9001]

2. Their reasoning is faulty

Incels possess neither merit nor character. What makes them think that women will squander their sexual and/or reproductive prerogatives on the likes of those ‘specimens?’

[bronxiteforever]

3. Kick & recommend. Love Wonkette.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

6. They're all incredibly dumb because this is going to work in the opposite way for them

More women feeling sexually-liberated and in control of their reproduction creates a larger pool of women who JUST MIGHT ... have sex with you losers once in awhile. It's simple math.

Also ... they might try getting better jobs and earning more money. It really improves your chances. Not saying that they're all a buncha gold-diggers, but successful men have a leg up in terms attractiveness to females (on average), it's part of our biological heritage. Same exact guy $100K in debt with a crap job is less attractive than if he has $1M in the bank and a great job.

BTW fellas, it really helps if you take care of your looks, your health, your fitness, your hair, your clothes/style, your skin, etc. It's good to have a gay male friend to help with some of this. I do!

Also stop over-estimating yourself and how 'hot of a chick' you think you deserve. There's actually PLENTY of women out there that are lonely and desirous of a relationship and sex. But these guys don't want them if they don't look like 20 yo porn starlets they see in the videos they watch, they think they deserve 'hotties'.

Lastly, incels, instead of going to the gun range or the golf course on Saturday, try volunteering someplace where women are likely to be found, and show up, and work hard, and be cool, and helpful to everyone around you. A great many ladies like seeing men volunteering and think more highly of them.

[Hugin]

7. By and large, I completely agree.

The neck beards have it all wrong.

[area51]

22. +1 n/t

[in2herbs]

8. Is it possible to turn the discussion onto considering how a society performs under the

rule of law they are proposing? For instance, we all enjoy our AC in the summer and heat in the winter. But a good percentage of these trumpettes can't read or write so how will these trumpers maintain the electric grid? We'll all suffer like TX. Do they have any idea if anyone will oversee the pharmaceutical companies so that the meds they are all on are safe to take? And, when elections become a thing of the past as of next week and Rs destroy SS and Medicare what are they going to do?

I'm not MLK but I have a dream: that when the J6 Cte. is done and Biden addresses the country he announces that Trump is being arrested as he speaks. With that accomplished we can turn our attention to expelling all the Rs in Congress.

[concretebluetwo]

16. Your keyboard to God's inbox....

And then to the top of her "to do" list.

[Thomas Hurt]

18. IMHO, anti abortion was never about killing babies or politics, it is much simpler

It is about power. The christofascists see abortion and other things as the "sinners" creating things that stop or delay what should be the natural consequences and punishment for being a "slut".

Abortion, birth control, welfare get in the way of pregnancy, STDs, and starvation.

Since God has not seen fit to judge and punish the sluts now, though supposedly God will at some as yet undetermined date, the christofascists have decided to make themselves God.

Anti-Abortion is about judgment and punishment, control and power.

The conservatives lost actual slavery and now they have regained a portion of that kind of power in controlling the sluts.

Of course they are estatic.

[keep_left]

27. Social and economic Calvinism are two of America's original sins...

...not as serious as the original sin of slavery, but nonetheless serious and seemingly impossible to eradicate. Especially during adversity, America's social Calvinist nature always seems to rise up again.

[edbermac]

23. Sounds like a 'mineshaft gap' scenario

[Martin68]

24. I don't think incels want to get laid. They want to rape someone. They don't see women as their

equals, or even as human.

[ashredux]

25. Wow..really stupid. Haven't they heard about a dildo??

[Whatthe_Firetruck]

29. Filker Leslie Fish did a song about these kinds of guys in the mid 80's...

...in an album called 'Chickasaw Mountain', and rereleased in 'Avalon Risen' in 2012.

It has her prescription for how guys can get girls, and how some guys respond.

[ymetca]

33. Yeah, I'm thinkin'

there's a lot of what Freud dubbed "polymorphous perversity" going on in that Incel / Big White Jesus crowd.

Puberty and religiosity make strange bedfellows. Hence all the subsequent coverups in scouting, sports, the Vatican, and so on.

All those skyscrapers and missiles we build just spell male sexual repression.. to me, anyway.

And wasn't it Kissinger who proclaimed that power was the ultimate aphrodisiac? Lord knows he was one ugly motherfucker, so, yeah, I get what he's saying there.. about himself.

Trouble getting laid? Hey, money, power and mass-murder fills the need!

And it all starts when you're little. When your mind is malleable.

Get them while they're young, as our "faith leaders" say.