Neil deGrasse Tyson on the popularity of dictatorships

[BootinUp]

Neil deGrasse Tyson
@neiltyson

In 1945 we defeated violent fascist leaders who controlled the press & public perceptions of truth. If you were 20 then, you are now 97 — or dead.

I wonder if dictators are popular today because hardly anyone alive remembers the havoc they wrought & why we fought against them.

Link to tweet

?s=20&t=9WdBBM5yqewhcc6XuzFfsA

[Ferrets are Cool]

1. And, history is an afterthought in our school systems.

[geardaddy]

23. Bingo!

[keep_left]

35. Not to mention civics. In many school districts, it hasn't been taught...

...since the late '80s. It probably went by the wayside because it's hard to evaluate by means of the high-stakes testing that came in around that time. Some school districts claim to still teach civics, but when you look at the details, they are defining "civics" under the rubric of any number of generic social studies classes.

Back in the late '80s, high schools often had an actual civics course, distinct from US history, world history, etc. The civics course in my high school even covered the labor movement.

[geardaddy]

49. I graduated from high school in '83

and Civics was a required course along with Economics and Current Events. One was taught each trimester at our school.

[druidity33]

61. I graduated in '89...

civics was an elective course and from what i understand was not offered the following year.

[Raastan]

58. No, it is indeed taught. But it is not learned...

[ms liberty]

2. I agree; I recently said something similar to someone recently IRL.

[Irish_Dem]

3. People who fought Hitler came home and wanted peace to raise their families.

They are mostly dead now and so we circle back to horrific times.

[wnylib]

20. Spot on. It's a never ending battle, from one generation to the next.

There will always be attempts at dictatorship. There will always be a need to resist and defeat them. We can't let ourselves get complacent. It is up to each generation to teach the next one. When we fail to do that, the dictators win.

[Irish_Dem]

24. Human nature to take power and wealth by any means is deeply ingrained.

Humans seem ruthless in their question for control and possession of resources.

And as you say, it is our duty to fight for freedom and the right to some fair distribution of wealth.

I guess it is the human condition.

I am watching the British series, The Last Kingdom. It is set in 9th century Anglo-Saxon England.
It shows the internal fighting between the Saxon Christian kingdoms, Wales, Scotland, etc.
Then the external threats from the Danish vikings.

We see all the palace intrigue, all the machinations, plots, shifting alliances, bloody battles, etc.

I don't really see that much has changed in the last 1100 years.

[wnylib]

28. I have read the Last Kingdom series, but have not

seen the films.

There is, as you say, a tendency for some people to seek control and power solely for themselves. There is also a tendency for humans to seek and accept leadership in societies. We need some method of organizing ourselves. What kind of leadership we the people accept is up to us.

It is human nature for someone to cling to power and to abuse it. They are stopped only by opposition or a set of values that people commit to. The "values" can be the self-serving interests of an opposing war Lord, or they can be, as the Last Kingdom series shows, a commitment to a set of values for all to adhere to (King Alfred) that balances the power of rulers and ruled.

Monarchies were, for a time, an improvement over the chaos of warlords. But the power of monarchs was gradually checked by advisors and lords who served under the monarchs. As Medieval European societies became more complex in trade and technologies, more advisors and checks on monarchies evolved.

There was always a concept of good rulers who felt responsible for the well being of the society and its members, and a concept of bad rulers who were too absolute and self serving in their power. You can see it in the descriptions that go with their titles. Alfred the Great. Ivan the Terrible. Bloody Queen Mary. Good Queen Bess.

[Irish_Dem]

43. It is a TV series and it is excellent.

The lead character, a Saxon at birth, the son of a noble, was kidnapped by the Vikings as a child, and raised to be a Viking warrior, is a real heartthrob.

King Alfred and his son Edward play important roles as well.

Yes some people are true leaders and have a moral core.

Others are charismatic despots, bent on world destruction.

It is up to the people to form the kind of world they want.

[wnylib]

44. I enjoyed the books that the TV series is based on.

That's unusual for me because there is so much blood and guts in the battle stories. But, the author, Bernard Cornwell, makes the human side interesting. Also, these stories give a good, well researched background on early English history. Made me feel like I was right there and I could see better how various groups invaded and eventually blended. In the end, it appears to me that both sides won. The unified nation that Arthur dreamed of and fought for did come into existence, but it was the Norwegians and Danes who became kings of the unified nation, until the Normans took over.

(I also enjoyed seeing some of my ancestors portrayed in these stories.)

[Irish_Dem]

45. Yes but there is so much intriguing history, battle strategy and romance as well.

Oh yes I feel like I am right in the room with history happening.

I have not gotten to the end of the series to see it all unfold, but yes we know the outcome.
Unified England and Viking rulers.

Yes same here, nice to see my British and Viking ancestors, even if they are killing each other.

[Tommymac]

34. Read Robert Pirsig's works (MOQ) to get one explanation. Biological Quality has been unleashed again

The last few centuries have seen the rise of Intellectual Quality, and the resultant weakening of Sociological Quality which had kept the more primative Biological forces under control.

Basically per Pirsig's 'Metaphysics of Quality (MOQ), the advancing levels of human evolution are Biological, Societal, and Intellectual, in that order.

Brute force and despotism are markers of the biologic stage of Human development.

Pirsig's 'Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' and 'Lila' are the foundations of his metaphysics.

Long article:
https://philosophynow.org/issues/122/Robert_Pirsig_and_His_Metaphysics_of_Quality

[Irish_Dem]

46. Thank you Tommy!

I will go take a look at his work.

Some research psychologists think that human IQ has dropped as much as a standard deviation from the norm in the last 200 years. Coinciding with the industrial revolution, perhaps pollution?

[LastDemocratInSC]

4. The answer to his question is YES.

[soldierant]

52. I was born shortly before Hiroshima

and I might remind those in my generation that it didn't take long after the was for McCarthyism to take hold. McCarthy was gone long before I was in junior high, but the HUAC was still a bogeyman. My mom (who was not an idiot) was concerned that something I did might forever blemish my "permanent record."

It was members of my generation who started the push for peace and love - and even had some success - but by the time JFK, MLK, and Bobby were assassinated, the wind had gone out of our sails. But I still care, and I know there are many others who still care. I find it sad and painful that so many "boomers" actually do deserve the disrespect we get.

Sadly, there are way too many people who actually like being told what to do.

[tinrobot]

5. That's kind of the theory behind 'The Fourth Turning"

The book claims that the US has a four generation cycle. One generation experiences a great crisis, and four generations later, people have forgotten the lessons of that crisis, so it repeats. Last crisis was the Depression/WWII

Not particularly a fan of the theory as it has a lot of holes, but Steve Bannon swears by it (and is working to invoke the current crisis).

https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Turning-American-Prophecy-Rendezvous/dp/0767900464

[mitch96]

6. Democracys are hard to keep alive and need work. Dictatorships are easy... until they are not..nt

[calimary]

17. GOOD one!

[hlthe2b]

7. Yes. The loss of the WWII Generation--the so-called "Greatest" is going to be the death of democracy

if we don't WAKE UP! Young people are largely not learning history-- or if they actually go to a school with a good curriculum, the RW is determined to dismantle it with their propagandist alternatives.

Previous generations might have been more immune to this by virtue of the fact they had older generations around them who countered the nonsense or taught them from their experiences. But equally important, previous generations, including my own READ and read voraciously. it is hard to counter fascism when the very basis for why we CHOSE democracy (or at least a Democratic Republic form of government) is lost on them. Or when they've never read the scores and scores of biographies that I did about people who barely survived the alternatives. Social media may well be the death of critical knowledge for many.


Now that our public school systems are under systematic attack, will we wake up (in time?)

[uponit7771]

8. Nazis only had 37% vote. Hitler, like Trump, was a bull shitter & promised different to everyone.

With the Nazi's 37% they had the plurality of the German Parliament so Hitler legally took power and 3 months later after a false flag incident called for martial law.

The left in Germany was too splintered before Hitler started killing them to form opposition

Industrialist were scared of Communist movement so they were going to attach to anyone who would protect them.

[HuskyOffset]

12. slight correction: martial law not Marshal Law (NT)

[uponit7771]

13. thx

[peppertree]

21. And lest we forget, Hitler (& Mussolini, etc) seized power with "mainstream conservative" connivance

They went along with it, just to stick it to the Socialists.

History does like to repeat itself.

[uponit7771]

36. YES !!! Germany's industrialist excuse that "Hitler made us" doesn't pass the smell test of when he

... and the NAZI's weren't in power.

The NAZI's ... COULD NOT ... "made us" do anything when NAZIs only had 18% of Germany's parliament.

industrialist sided with NAZIs from the ***START*** to protect themselves from the socialist ... RIGHT ON!!!

[peppertree]

37. Absolutely.

You'd hear the same excuses from collaborationists, after the downfalls of Mussolini, Pinochet, Videla, Marcos, etc.

"Hells bells - how could we have known? What could little ol' us do!?"

After applauding, coddling - and most importantly, funding, said dictators from day one until the 11th hour.

Like Prescott Bush did.

[genxlib]

9. The irony is...

It was the voting patterns of that generation that led us back to where we are. That hypothetical person described in the tweet would have been 45 when Reagan was elected. That generation formed the backbone of the conservative voting block for the next three decades.

So they should not be held up as the all wise generation that kept us from getting here sooner.

[BootinUp]

11. To me the answer might go something like this

Extremism is driven by fear of political change. It is the decline of certain religious/political groups that is making them more extreme and willing to change tactics, desire a more authoritarian form of government.

[wnylib]

25. One factor that changed the WWII generation's voting pattern

was the spread of communism in Europe and Asia after the war. The US took a strong anti communism stance that pushed us farther to the right. In addition, we recruited former Nazis to help establish the CIA after the war.

The WWII generation was also wary of appeasement after the run up to WWII. So our leaders and voters of the WWII generation took a proactive stance regarding communism, which led us to support right leaning dictatorships in Asia (Vietnam) and South America.

Capitalism became synonymous with democracy in our political speech. We toppled governments for the sake of our corporate business interests abroad. That turned more 3rd world countries to communism. Cuba is an example. We supported dictatorships there, particularly Batista, to serve our corporate and tourism interests leaving most Cubans in deplorable poverty. They rebelled and we took Batista's side. Cubans turned first to socialism. When we tried to interfere, they sought help from the Soviet Union and Cuba went full on communist.

So, we went from opposing RW dictstorships in WWII, to supporting them after the war in order to oppose LW dictstorships. Democracy got lost in the process.

We have failed to clearly define democracy and failed to teach the next generations the lessons of what led to the Great Depression and WWII.

[misanthrope]

38. Your math is off

A person born in 1925 (per the tweet) would have been 55 in 1980, when Reagan was elected. They would have qualified for Social Security and hit what was considered standard retirement age in the middle of George H.W. Bush's regime. There was a good chance they voted for more Democrats as they entered the 1990s because of their growing reliance on the social safety net.

[genxlib]

41. My bad on the math

I was still dubious that they supported Democrats but I did a little research and you appear to be correct.

I stand corrected.

I guess the truth is broader than the OP noted. Not only did that age group remember dictators, they remembered what life was like before Social Security.

Thanks for setting me straight.

[misanthrope]

65. No worries

Just trying to help you understand, not browbeat anyone. I'm on front cusp of the generation in your handle and I remember those years well. I also remember my grandparents and their siblings, the generation that fought WWII. They had some huge blind spots regarding race and other things, but they all realized the value of the public sector since they had plenty of memories of life before the New Deal, during the Depression and how everything changed when the social safety net was created.

[genxlib]

10. It should be noted...

That the Conservatives say the same thing about Communism relative to anyone younger than 40.

Of course they couldn't define socialism if you asked them.

[JHB]

22. Sure they can define "socialism." Just not in standard English.

They'll give you a wildly-expansive definition that includes the US during WW2 and the Cold War (though they'll deny it if you point that out).

Once upon a time it was the definition used by sidewalk soapbox speechifiers, country club barflies muttering into their gin and tonics, and other assorted ranting cranks. Now that conservatives happier turned their whole party into ranting cranks, they regard it as conventional wisdom.

[ananda]

14. Also, it's been normalized.

Today's fascism has been normalized to a great extent
due to the power of corporations, propaganda, and a
fascist-controlled media.

Believe me, IT'S NOT NORMAL.

[CrispyQ]

31. Don't forgot social media.

It's had a huge impact by allowing small hate groups to coalesce into bigger & bigger groups, giving them a bigger voice than they really have. Also, the anonymity encourages bad behavior, so they've just gotten more...deplorable.

[misanthrope]

39. This is a huge factor

In past eras, they would have been more isolated.

[Evolve Dammit]

15. Short Attention Span Theatre- USA. Not just us though. Philippines comes to mind. 90% Marcos/Duerte

[RAB910]

16. It's why Ron DeSantis and Trump are popular

[Lonestarblue]

18. Dictators are attractive to extremists who think their beliefs are being ignored.

And the US has more than its fair share of extremists now: white supremacists, anti-government militias, Christian Nationalists, burn-the-government-down radicals, forced birthers, anti-LGBTQ rights (and existence), anti-immigration zealots, and on and on. The difference today as compared with attitudes pre-Trump is that they now embrace violence and breaking the law to get what they want. They do not see criminal behavior as being wrong. That is truly astonishing.

Rand Paul’s response to Trump’s crimes regarding stealing classified documents was simply to get rid of the Espionage Act Trump is accused of violating. As we’ve seen with most of the primaries this year, Republican voters are not interested in democratic principles or even keeping our democracy going. They are interested in one thing only, and that is the power to force the rest of the country to bend to their will. Their identity as a political party has morphed into a focus not on governing to address major issues the country faces but on cultural tribalism that is fueling the worst political decisions for the country.

Republicans like DeSantis have started excluding mainstream media from state and political events. Republicans across the country have banned books and passed “gag” laws to make teachers so afraid of running afoul of the laws that they’re not teaching actual history anymore. Some states are passing anti-trans bills to hurt kids. If Abbot wins this Fall, I expect Texas to codify their policy of threatening parents of trans kids with investigations by child services and possible removal from the home for physical and mental torture of conversion therapy. The new Republican platform clearly states an anti-LGBTQ agenda.

So, yes, we are heading for dictatorship unless the radicals are voted out. I know it’s been said of other elections, but this Fall’s election seems to be the most consequential I can remember. The 2016 election was hugely consequential, but we didn’t know then that Trump would invite fascism to the party.

[sanatanadharma]

19. When I was twenty and anti-Nixon and ...

... and anti-republican and anti-conservative and anti-ignorance, it was the 'greatest generation' that was voting yes for Nixon, republicans, conservatives and ignorance.

True, starting about then, some boomers began buying the bromide that those who were actually right were wrong and those who called themselves 'right' were never wrong.

Nothing has been right since Reagan.
Trump is the cat who knocked everything off the edge of rationality.
Republicans are those who moved everything to the edge.
People without ethical-depth-perception live in flat worlds.

[Rebl2]

26. I have

thought of that too. Face it, I think many people in jr. high and high school weren’t paying close attention in history class even in the 60’s and 70’s. I would occasionally hear my parents talk about it. Never my grandparents though.
I also wonder over the last 20-25 years how in-depth they go into WW 1 & 2, as well as Vietnam war. I never had kids (am in my 60’s) and have no idea what they have been taught regarding history and civics classes.

[ShazzieB]

62. My daughter graduated high school in 2003.

She says they didn't even cover WWII in American history class. Never got that far!

That was almost 20 years ago. I have no idea if it's gotten any better, but I suspect notl

[Rebl2]

64. I have a

niece and nephew that graduated in 2012 and 2016 (they live close by) and it never occurred to me to ask what they were taught regarding American history and civics. That’s quite surprising they never taught anything about WWII.

[Iggo]

27. Wow. Nice pic.

Look at all those economically anxious white men.

[Novara]

29. The way I see it, people are too arrogant to learn

They think they know everything. It takes self-awareness and humility to admit you can learn something from history, so they don't even bother.

REAL history doesn't seem to be taught in schools these days. And by real history I mean history that makes us uncomfortable: slavery, the Holocaust, the way America has fucked native Americans are examples. How can you learn from mistakes if you're not aware of them? It's exactly why the racist GOP wants to eliminate history in schools. They WANT to repeat the same mistakes because they don't consider them mistakes. Hell, if they could teach slavery as a celebration, they surely would.

[keithbvadu2]

30. ... but they mistakenly think they will be the few thousand elites actually in charge.

Those millions of republicans want an authoritarian gov't but they mistakenly think they will be the few thousand elites actually in charge.

Those millions are useful tools for those who will actually be in charge.

One poster called it a 'new social feudalism age'.
-----------------------
Same/same for those who want our country to be Christian run.

When a theocracy takes over America, which church (Christian of course) will be in charge?
Will the others accept their rule?
Many Catholics/Protestants consider the other to be false Christians.
Would they accept Mormons as the rulers?
Westboro Baptist Church?
The new rulers will be political Christians rather than Christians of faith.

We have plenty of people who want to be the Christian Ayatollah of America.

The Christian version of Sharia Law.

[misanthrope]

40. That's because Americans tend to imagine themselves destined for the top

Some reference it as "American optimism." I think it is outright delusion, to expect the outlier as the norm.

[keithbvadu2]

42. Now what was that famous statistic?

Now what was that famous statistic?

90% of people consider themselves above average.

[yankee87]

56. Theocracy

So true, that the millions of dupes all think they’ll rule. They are nothing but cannon fodder for the DeathSantis and Drumpfs of the coming theocracy. I already spoke with my children, that since their grandparents came from Ireland, they can become citizens there. Ain’t that a kick in the butt, Ireland has more respect for civil rights than we do.

[jerseyjim]

32. Trumpsters..

don't read.

[iluvtennis]

33. My ex mother in law is 98 years old. She lived thru

the fascist sh*t in Italy and has never forgotten. She’s been a true liberal her entire life.

[Apollo Zeus]

47. NGT seems to be claiming that "no one alive today" remembers Hitler ???!

I believe that is a 'Double inverted Godwin with a half twist'

Degree of difficulty: 2.7

[Iggo]

51. That's what you got out of that?

[Apollo Zeus]

63. This thread is not about me despite your personal attack

NGT: "hardly anyone alive remembers the havoc they wrought & why we fought against them"

"They" = WW2 era fascist dictators, eg Hitler and Mussoulini

My point stands. Ad homs are a logical fallacy and a distraction.

[BComplex]

48. No shit! My dad was in a nazi prison camp in Germany after his plane was shot down.

Trumpsters can go fuck themselves.

[Martin68]

50. I've wondered the same thing. I'm 70, and it's hard for me to believe how long ago we fought WWII.

[Yavin4]

53. The appeal of Fascist Dictatorship will always be an existential threat

Because it gives below average people power if they're members of the "in-group". Look at the Republican party base. Look at Fox News anchors and hosts. Look at Republican elected officials. These aren't super intelligent people. They're not even average intelligence. They are well below intelligent and proudly ignorant people.

[Zeitghost]

54. That sounds good

Until you consider we partnered up with one of the most evil and brutal dictators of all time in WWII.

[BigmanPigman]

55. All Americans have the memory of a gnat.

If they had a memory span longer than 5 years they would remember all the good things Dem POTUSes have done for people before every election and stop voting for the GOP. Shit, 37% of Americans don't remember all the anti-tRump statements made by key GOP members after the insurrection before they did a 180°.

[NullTuples]

57. They'd also remember DeGrasse Tyson was accused of sexual assault 4x in one year...

"Based on the results of the investigation, Dr. Tyson remains an employee and director of the Hayden Planetarium,” the museum said in a statement to the New York Times. “Because this is a confidential personnel matter, there will be no further statements by the museum.”

Likewise Fox news - where he was also accused of sexual assault - announced they had concluded their "investigation" and would keep him on.

Neither released any information about their internal investigations.

[dchill]

59. You can't learn from a history you weren't taught...

...or couldn't read.

[Rhiannon12866]

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