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WarGamer

(12,426 posts)
Sat Sep 10, 2022, 07:42 PM Sep 2022

Russian Military Doctrine and why Ukraine in the 21st Century is different.

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.






To understand the Russian incursion into Ukraine and their current dismal performance, one must look at history.

Let's start with one fact.

1) Russians rarely "out-fight" an enemy.

WW2 is packed full of stories of tactically superior German soldiers really "laying into" the Russians.

A few of my favorite examples, both places I've been to in person and soaked up the vibe...

In 1944 the Russians were on the move, pushing the Germans out of Russian lands into Estonia through the city of Narva, over the Narva River. Around 10 miles across the border were a series of hills called Sinimaed, a battleground from WW1 and earlier... serving as a natural barrier to the Western half of Estonia.

The Germans took up defensive positions in the Sinimaed and waited for the Russians. The Russians rolled in with 10x the soldiers, around 250,000 troops and a few hundred tanks... into an area not much larger than a sprawling city.

The Russians attacked and counter attacked the hills, they changed hands time after time. The Russians were pouring troops in as they'd fall. They had nearly unlimited artillery and ammo to pound the hills.

Eventually the Germans gave up the hills and fled the area. The Russians had lost 600k+ soldiers, 135k killed.

The Germans lost between 5-10k men.





Fast forward to the Battle of Berlin in 1945. There's a spot near Berlin Center called Neukolln. It's just your typical spot with a Rathaus, a "City Hall"...

It's located at the crossroads leading into Berlin Center and all the targets the Russians wanted to take. Less than 100 French Volunteers (SS Charlemagne) held up 10's of thousands of Russians and hundreds of Russian tanks for half a day.

The Russians kept pushing men and tanks into the teeth of the defense and the bodies piled up. Finally the surviving troops retreated back into Berlin Center.




And finally... you saw the movie Stalingrad from 1942?

It was accurate. Trains full of conscripts from the Far East arrived into the rail terminal and were sent straight to the front lines where the leaders told them to rush towards the German front lines and pick up the weapons dropped by the soldiers who fall in front of them and continue forward to "kill the fascists"...



Bottom line?
The Russians have NEVER been an elite fighting force. Russians win because of numbers. They drown the enemy in men and ammo.

Today? The Russians have a small fighting force, poorly trained, Defense contractors, oligarchs and corrupt Generals have been siphoning money away from the military for decades...

And the Russians don't have the political will to conscript the general population to form a large force.

In summary, Ukraine is exactly the kind of battle the Russians can NOT win at THIS TIME. The Ukranians are well equipped and motivated and the Russians don't have their usual "numbers" to score victories.

At this point, the only thing the Russians can do to keep the war raging is a combination of more war crimes and destroy infrastructure or shut off the power/heat during Winter.




8 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Russian Military Doctrine and why Ukraine in the 21st Century is different. (Original Post) WarGamer Sep 2022 OP
I was in the Army in the 80's Woodwizard Sep 2022 #1
Sounds about right. WarGamer Sep 2022 #3
This is the vaunted Russian army that Rafael Cruz, who never served, gushed about while denigrating keithbvadu2 Sep 2022 #2
Absolutely. WarGamer Sep 2022 #4
Love to read your reference but refuse to click on your track-baited link. Do you have a final page? erronis Sep 2022 #5
It's all different web pages. keithbvadu2 Sep 2022 #7
It links to Google search results for a search on the terms: cruz praises russian army JHB Sep 2022 #8
Something about fools rushing in and flooding the zone? erronis Sep 2022 #6

Woodwizard

(841 posts)
1. I was in the Army in the 80's
Sat Sep 10, 2022, 08:09 PM
Sep 2022

It was pounded iny our heads how well trained and equipped the Soviet forces were.

Then in the 90's I worked with a Russian who emigrated here that had served in the Soviet forces and told him about what we were told about Soviet training. He justs started laughing at me he never went through the propaganda we were told to push us to train harder.

Half the battle is won if the enemy thinks you are a super force.

WarGamer

(12,426 posts)
3. Sounds about right.
Sat Sep 10, 2022, 08:16 PM
Sep 2022

The best book on the German invasion of Russia is 'War without Garlands"

The most powerful thing I took away from that book...

Operation Barbarossa FAILED NOT because the Germans didn't perform well enough or the Russians beat them.

The Germans literally "victoried" themselves to death.

They shot out the barrels of weapons, they wore out the engines of vehicles, the broke the firing pins of rifles...

They were so busy killing Russians that their equipment and eventually their own troops failed.

The Russians would have an entire army rolled up and surrounded and instead of letting them surrender they'd order them to fight to the death knowing it'd take a toll on German weapons and troops... and the Russians just needed to buy the time for Winter and the far East troops to arrive.

They'd sacrifice a million troops for the delay and the wear and tear on the Germans.

WarGamer

(12,426 posts)
4. Absolutely.
Sat Sep 10, 2022, 08:18 PM
Sep 2022

The US military is soooo cautious that they will hold up an armored column for 3 hours to call in an A-10 strike to kill a couple snipers in an attic in Iraq.

erronis

(15,222 posts)
5. Love to read your reference but refuse to click on your track-baited link. Do you have a final page?
Sat Sep 10, 2022, 08:51 PM
Sep 2022

JHB

(37,158 posts)
8. It links to Google search results for a search on the terms: cruz praises russian army
Sat Sep 10, 2022, 09:41 PM
Sep 2022

Put those terms in Google or other search engine, and it'll turn up several stories on the matter, which is about Cruz retweeting an ultra-macho Russian recruiting ad, comparing it to our own "woke military".

That was about 9 months before Vlad decided to show the world that the Russian army is one gigantic clusterfuck.



erronis

(15,222 posts)
6. Something about fools rushing in and flooding the zone?
Sat Sep 10, 2022, 08:55 PM
Sep 2022

When all you have is meat to throw against the cannons...

Much prior warfare has been executed in this manner. Remains to be seen if targeted strikes are a better way. If you're a super-power, probably. If you're a struggling third-world country or an insurgent - might not work as well. Still the success of UKR using drones is very compelling.

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