What happens if the DOJ refuses to hand over the classified documents to the Special Master?

[Raven]

Say the 11th Circuit rules against the DOJ, what then?

[samnsara]

1. can joe intervene or does it go to scotus then?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Joe can't intervene and the DOJ would be held in contempt.

[Fiendish Thingy]

16. Nah, they can still appeal to SCOTUS. NT

[ripcord]

17. If the 11th Circuit rules against them

They would have to issue a stay for the time waiting for a SCOTUS appeal, if they don't the DOJ will have to follow the original ruling and hand over the documents.

[Fiendish Thingy]

21. SCOTUS can issue the stay pending appeal

If SCOTUS agrees to consider the case, they can issue the stay.

If for some reason they didn’t, then we could indeed have a Constitutional crisis, as Garland, and by extension, Biden would have to choose between obeying a court order or protecting National Security.

[FBaggins]

28. Nonsense. (On there's only being two choices)

We can’t argue that turning materials over to a former FISA judge endangers national security.

There is really no option to ignore the court order if we lose the appeal(s). Of course Biden obeys it (Garland really). We lose any ability to claim that democracy is on the line otherwise

[Fiendish Thingy]

33. But Cannon's ruling suggests she/ the SM could determine Trump is the rightful owner of the docs

You aren’t suggesting Garland and Biden would simply shrug and say “it’s a court order, we can’t defy it”, and allow Trump to regain possession of the documents, are you?

That’s one of the reasons I am certain this will be removed from Cannon/Dearie’s jurisdiction.

[FBaggins]

35. The evaluated scenario was that SCOTUS agreed

Last edited Sun Sep 18, 2022, 06:52 AM - Edit history (1)

In which case, yes, that’s exactly what I’m suggesting.

If we lose that battle then the SM/Cannon could indeed rule that some of the documents cannot be used. In which case that ruling can also be appealed.

[Raven]

5. If Garland was found in contempt, who would enforce that ruling?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. We have a constitutional crisis.

I just know a president can't defy a court order. He can appeal it of course but not defy it.

[Fullduplexxx]

14. theyre co equal branches one shouldnt be able to order the other around

[SCantiGOP]

18. Nope

Marbury v. Madison
Google it

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. The argument is DOJ should defy the court, get sanctioned, and then force the court to enforce it.

[SCantiGOP]

25. That's not an argument

You can either call it a lawless act, a constitutional crisis, or a guaranteed was for the Democrats to get destroyed in the midterms.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. That's why I'm not making it. BTW Andrew Jackson defied a court order.

[SCantiGOP]

32. It wasn't coincidence

that Trump moved Jackson’s picture behind him.
If the Court’s not in charge, then only the military stands to block a coup by any administration, and that is not a risk we ever need to take.

[Zeitghost]

34. Checks and Balances

It's a fundamental concept of our government. They may be co-equal, but that is because each has a number of checks on the power of the other two.

[Fiendish Thingy]

15. Who (and what army) would enforce the court order against the president?

The only recourse would be impeachment, which the GOP will do anyway if they retake the house. After leaving office, I suppose Biden could be charged with contempt of court.

[Buckeyeblue]

8. No one. Congress could impeach him. But that's about it.

But the DOJ wouldn't be able to move forward with its case against Trump. So he would continue to not be held accountable.

[FBaggins]

31. Just about everything the AG does requires the judicial branch to play along

They don’t have an army to go arrest him… but they can definitely assign significant consequences well in excess of what could be gained by ignoring their orders

[Eliot Rosewater]

2. IDK but it is a good thing this isnt in reverse, cons would start SHOOTING if

we were forced to hand over national secrets to a judge just to appease a Democratic politician.

[Takket]

4. if they refuse the documents would likely be declared inadmissible at any future trial

meaning there would be zero evidence for DOJ to present and drumpf would never suffer any consequences

[Raven]

6. Inadmissible on what grounds?

[RockRaven]

9. Imaginary/bullshit 4th Am violations

[SoCalDavidS]

11. Who Says He'll Ever Suffer Any Consequences? nt

[Fiendish Thingy]

12. The documents in question are those seized via SW on 8/4

The documents returned/retrieved before the search are not part of this case, and could still be used as evidence, although likely only for PRA charges, not espionage or obstruction.

[FBaggins]

29. There aren't any PRA charges

The law doesn’t include an enforcement mechanism

[Fiendish Thingy]

10. Then it goes to SCOTUS, and DOJ would seek a stay of the 11th ruling pending appeal. Nt

[Hermit-The-Prog]

13. Then the entire DoJ will be arrested and put in jail. Fair play and equal protection, y'know.

[Raven123]

19. I think this might be moot. DOJ won't refuse an order, if appeals fail

[dweller]

20. Obviously

Garland would be locked up within the hour on some trumped up charge …

pun intended




✌🏻

[Igel]

22. Then the DOJ does as suggested.

Ask that the classified document review be expedited. Presumably they won't be a problem if they're as billed.

If that were done, I don't see why they wouldn't be available within a week.

[Captain Zero]

23. Make Copies. You know Trump has.

In a more serious vein. Why not offer rewards for any docs or copies out in the wild.? Maybe we can buy some back. Tell the sellers they have to testify with immunity who and where they bought the documents and testify to the documents' provenance, before they get the reward.

[onenote]

27. DOJ isn't being asked to give up physical possession of the classified documents

The order provides that Trump's lawyers, if they have the requisite clearance, can review them in a controlled environment. And after they've reviewed them, the special master will review them subject to the same conditions. DOJ will continue to have possession of the classified documents, can review them, but is subject to restrictions on their use (for example, they can't be used in a grand jury presentation. But just letting Trump's lawyers review the classified documents, even with the appropriate clearances, is extremely problematic at this stage of a criminal investigation. It is as much the impact on that investigation as the threat to national security from Trump's lawyers or the SM getting to the review them, that is the driving force behind DOJ's appeal.