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Sun Sep 25, 2022, 03:41 PM

A solution to affordable housing... that Americans just don't seem to like.

Travel pretty much anywhere in Europe, particularly Central Europe... and you see these large apartment block buildings.

They're pretty much non-existent in the US, except for some in large cities.

But ever seen one in Orange County, CA? Or in the DFW metroplex?

These are large buildings with hundreds of residential homes inside.

I Know... I know...

Someone is going to slide in here and say "Yeah they're called the Projects and people trash them because they have no Pride of Ownership"

That's the thing. You have to build them nice. Integrate them into shopping areas, hiking trailheads, mass transit (if possible) and build them GREEN with modern efficiencies. MAKE THEM NICE.

And about crime? Undesirable criminal behavior? People abusing the property?

Make the buildings have a Residents Board. Have onsite security. Have the ability to kick people out for undesirable conduct.

KEEP them nice.

Think about it... If you build a couple big ass tract developments of SFH, you might have 150 homes with 500 residents.

You can have 500 people in one building.

It's much more efficient and you can build 2+2 1200sf homes for $150k-ish...

As long as people want their own little McMansion with the 1/4 acre lot and the construction companies make BIG profit off of those, we'll never see affordable housing.



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Reply A solution to affordable housing... that Americans just don't seem to like. (Original post)
WarGamer Sep 25 OP
Bettie Sep 25 #1
WarGamer Sep 25 #3
WarGamer Sep 25 #2
jimfields33 Sep 25 #4
WarGamer Sep 25 #5
DetroitLegalBeagle Sep 25 #11
WarGamer Sep 25 #13
karynnj Sep 26 #64
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #18
Sky Jewels Sep 25 #9
ret5hd Sep 25 #19
NickB79 Sep 25 #44
Zeitghost Sep 25 #6
WarGamer Sep 25 #8
Zeitghost Sep 25 #12
WarGamer Sep 25 #14
chowder66 Sep 25 #47
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #25
WarGamer Sep 25 #26
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #28
Zeitghost Sep 25 #49
inthewind21 Sep 26 #79
Zeitghost Sep 26 #80
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #84
LisaM Sep 25 #50
Hermit-The-Prog Sep 25 #10
JHB Sep 25 #7
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #15
WarGamer Sep 25 #16
Celerity Sep 26 #57
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #58
Celerity Sep 26 #72
nightthinker Sep 25 #17
WarGamer Sep 25 #20
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #22
WarGamer Sep 25 #23
Mz Pip Sep 26 #67
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #21
Chainfire Sep 25 #24
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #30
Chainfire Sep 25 #31
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #34
ret5hd Sep 25 #32
Chainfire Sep 25 #35
ret5hd Sep 25 #39
Chainfire Sep 25 #42
Chainfire Sep 25 #41
LisaM Sep 25 #27
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #29
LisaM Sep 25 #36
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #38
keithbvadu2 Sep 25 #33
alphafemale Sep 25 #37
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #40
alphafemale Sep 25 #43
Scrivener7 Sep 25 #45
ret5hd Sep 25 #53
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #59
Carlitos Brigante Sep 26 #74
treestar Sep 25 #56
alphafemale Sep 26 #66
Hortensis Sep 26 #65
Buckeye_Democrat Sep 25 #46
meadowlander Sep 25 #48
WarGamer Sep 25 #52
NQAS Sep 25 #51
Texasgal Sep 25 #54
Demovictory9 Sep 27 #95
JanMichael Sep 25 #55
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #60
dclarston13 Sep 26 #61
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #69
maxsolomon Sep 26 #82
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #83
dclarston13 Sep 26 #86
GP6971 Sep 26 #87
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #88
Demsrule86 Sep 26 #62
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #68
Demsrule86 Sep 26 #70
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #71
Demsrule86 Sep 26 #77
Demsrule86 Sep 26 #78
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #81
dembotoz Sep 26 #63
WarGamer Sep 26 #76
Bettie Sep 26 #73
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #75
Scrivener7 Sep 26 #85
WarGamer Sep 27 #89
WarGamer Sep 27 #93
Scrivener7 Sep 27 #96
tenderfoot Sep 27 #90
WarGamer Sep 27 #91
tenderfoot Sep 27 #92
WarGamer Sep 27 #94
Scrivener7 Sep 27 #97

Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 03:45 PM

1. There has to be upkeep too

and they have to be near enough to jobs or public transit to get to jobs for it to work.

Yes, it could be great, but historically, low income housing hasn't been a priority for anyone in government at any level...because "capitalism"! Keeping poor people desperate is profitable.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 03:48 PM

3. great points.

Build them with Commercial support.

If you've got 4000 people living in a 5-10 apartment block, you can have a McDonalds, 7-11, a Chevron station and a Starbucks.

The local gov't can extend the bus map or extend rail.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 03:45 PM

2. In addition...

Municipalities have to change zoning and regulations...

My city of 200k people pats themselves on the back for seeing that 75 lower income housing units are built in a year...

75.

??

It's also good for global warming.

Housing 500 people in one building is WAAAAYYYY more efficient than 200 SFH's in a tract.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 03:51 PM

4. I just don't see people wanting to live in those.

People in a yard. It just unattractive. Sorry it’s probably a good idea but I don’t see how anybody would wanna live in one of them.

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Response to jimfields33 (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 03:54 PM

5. Young people.

And people who presently pay big $$ to rent a 40 year old apartment.

Some people would LOVE to own something affordable.

Build them like a hotel.

Offer a concierge office, Build a restaurant that delivers room service.

Gig internet... gyms, pools, etc...

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:02 PM

11. You just described a high end condo

And those are not even remotely affordable to most people. A few years ago my wife and looked at getting one in Las Vegas, since we visit so often. 2bd 2ba condo with similar amenities you described cost 1.3 million. With how the market is now, especially in Las Vegas, it's likely closer to 2 million.

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Response to DetroitLegalBeagle (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:06 PM

13. Then it's greed.

Calculate the construction costs of the building, divide by the number of units.

Get Corporate partners to build some amenities...

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #13)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 08:48 AM

64. Don't forget land costs which can be high, but various building permit and other requirements

The cost of land can be quite high if it is in the city and in a good place. As someone suggested, you are describing a coop or condo and in many cities they are expensive.

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Response to DetroitLegalBeagle (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:17 PM

18. That's just ridiculous. See my post #15.

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Response to jimfields33 (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:00 PM

9. If they're close to or in a city, lots of people would like them,

especially if there's nearby public transportation and walkable streets with restaurants, bars, cafes, stores, etc.

If they're in Snoozeville, USA and the only nearby shopping is in strip malls, then, no.

I would say that every single place should at least have a balcony, though, so people can step outside easily.

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Response to jimfields33 (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:17 PM

19. Because they don't have the financial option...

to buy/rent a 2000-4000 sf single family home with a golden retriever, 2.3 children, a pristine lawn (with sprinkler system), wonderful accepting neighbors, functioning streetlights, “no-lead” pipes, good schools, double/triple glazed windows, and proper insulation.

And they don’t have the option to buy/rent single family houses that are substandard in all those respects because they are broke. They are poor. Their wallets are empty. Their dollars are pining for the fjords. AND much of the once affordable housing has been bought up by funds intent on squeezing every drop of blood, sweat, and tears from these dried shriveled wallets.

Many are already homeless. Many want someplace clean, safe, and reasonably priced to raise a family. To retire alone. To get a restart on a life interrupted by abuse, drugs, and/or a financial catastrophe.

Your ideals of attractiveness can change dramatically based on your circumstances. Personally, my ideals of attractiveness have ranged from a 150 sf trailer in a run-down trailer park to my (our) own home (built in 1939) and everything in between…apartments, a van, a tent.

I don’t understand how some cannot see this. Have so many been privileged their entire life?

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Response to jimfields33 (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 06:00 PM

44. People always say they want yards, but never use them

90% of the yards I see are just blank green slabs. No gardens. No flowers (or damn few, and they're generic non-native trash). A few generic maples and crabapples. The owners spend more time mowing, watering and fertilizing than they do enjoying them, and they bitch about all their water bills, gas, fixing lawnmowers, and the time they spend doing it. That, or they hire lawn company to hose the property down with chemicals. It's a rare sight to see kids actually playing in the yards, a well-maintained vegetable garden, or the owners playing fetch or tossing around some horseshoes.

The vast majority of people who want yards could get the same results if the block housing proposed by the OP had some nicely maintained green space and a community garden with plots to rent.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 03:56 PM

6. No thanks

I've got kids and dogs and hobbies that require some space. I have zero desire to be stacked on top of all my neighbors.

I'd live in a simple single wide with a small shop before I'd choose a luxury condo.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:00 PM

8. That's not going to be sustainable in the near future.

In your "cardboard-walled" single wide the A/C and Heating runs all day long and the 4000sf, 7000sf? acre?? is a waste for a couple people...

Block homes aren't for everyone... but MANY would love it.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:05 PM

12. If many would love it

They would be more popular already.

With a few exceptions, people who live in cramped, crowded spaces with no outdoor space do so out of necessity, not choice.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:11 PM

14. most municipalities don't allow them... the whole NIMBY thing.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 06:27 PM

47. +1

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:29 PM

25. Apartments are not necessarily "cramped, crowded spaces with no outdoor space."

I live in an apartment. I am steps away from a beautiful park with a river and little waterfalls where I can run, bike, sun, watch the blue herons and the egrets and turtles and ducks. There are bike paths all over the place.

My neighbor identified 30 spots in the neighborhood that were looking a little grubby. He got permission from the city to start a gardening club. Now there are 30 of us with our own gardens that we plant for the enjoyment of our neighbors and ourselves. It's beautiful.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:32 PM

26. love that part about community gardening!!

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #26)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:54 PM

28. Me too! I had just started thinking, "The only thing

I would like that I don't have is a garden!" And now I have a big one. 😁

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 06:51 PM

49. That sounds nice

Not for me, but nice. It also doesn't look like the vast majority of high density housing that I have personally come across, even those that are supposed to be higher end.

It always seems that the rules and regulations needed to control so many people packed into a small area seems to stifle any fun or individuality. Which is understandable; I get that the people above me don't want to put up with 8 hours of me smoking a pork shoulder and the people below me don't want to listen to my 90lb dogs rough housing on their roof.

I've lived in an apartment building and always did my best to be a good and polite neighbor, but I was counting the days until I had some space to stretch my legs.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #49)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 04:02 PM

79. It's call a HOA

And it's a royal pain in the ass and can get quite costly. On something that big, the maintenance fees alone would eat you alive. Who is responsible for what maint. and what upkeep? And let's not even get started on how funky the insurance gets on a dwelling that share walls. The restrictions and maybe not at the beginning but eventually your HOA board will go on a power tripping binge and start bitching and fining for every thing from Christmas decorations to the smell of curry you're cooking with and the hey, you had to many people over for dinner. And it WILL happen. It ALWAYS does with an association.

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Response to inthewind21 (Reply #79)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 04:04 PM

80. Agreed

n/t

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Response to inthewind21 (Reply #79)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 05:03 PM

84. I'm sorry but none of this is true. For 50 years, my building has had a board that is elected by the

resident-owners. If someone on the board is thought to be too restrictive, they are simply not re-elected the following year. There is no issue of power trips.

We maintain our home just like you do, paying monthly bills for services and building upkeep. It doesn't "eat you alive." It's the cost of maintaining our home. Just as you maintain your home.

There is nothing funky about my individual insurance or the building's insurance. This isn't new and insurance companies don't blink when issuing me a homeowner's policy.

All the buildings in my area work generally the same way. My previous apartment in a different town, and all the buildings in that area, worked the same way too.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 07:06 PM

50. Is that how you live?

I DO live in a one-bedroom apartment for two people that, by the way, is now also my home office because of Covid. We don't have AC and while we do have one path near a creek in our complex, I've probably circled it 1000 times in the seven years we have been here. Construction is everywhere around us and you can't even cross the street in some places.

If you think this is so great, I am going to assume you're walking the walk and live in a small apartment with fewer bedrooms than people.

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Response to Zeitghost (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:02 PM

10. There is no one-size fits all. Your dream should not exclude others.

An apartment complex wouldn't work near where I live, but the problems it solves don't exist here, either. Travel 1 hour from me, and a smaller version of what is shown in the OP would work very well. 3 hours from me, and the buildings in the OP would need to be taller. Single family homes would not be excluded in any of the 3 locations above.

A complex problem sometimes requires complex solutions.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 03:59 PM

7. Zoning needs to be changed to allow for more "in between" development.

In many US and Canadian cities you really only have two choices for living: an apartment/condo, or a single family home. The housing options in-between these two extremes - called "Missing Middle Housing" - has been legislated almost out of existence in the US and Canada.

Now many cities are starting to doubt these regulations and are (slowly) undoing the car-centric mistakes of the past. This video explores the missing middle, what it was, what it still is in Europe, and what it could be in the future in North America.


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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:12 PM

15. In Sweden, I stayed in Kungsholmen. It was all apartments near a

waterfront, with lots of restaurants and kids' sprinkler fountains and nice amenities for families. In the afternoons, I saw a lot of people in flip flops and bathrobes going down to the river for a dip.

Two Swedish friends were our tour guides while we were there. We went to their apartment for dinner and their neighborhood was the same thing: very nice apartments, lots of trees, lots of outdoor space.

I asked our hosts: "Where are the bad neighborhoods in Stockholm?" They looked at me funny. I had to explain. Then THEY explained to me that, "Oh, we don't have that here."

PS: I live in a suburb of NYC in an area with 15 apartment buildings that were all built during the Depression. Our homes are beautifully built, beautiful kept buildings in a walking town. All of the 15 buildings are co-ops, so the residents have a stake in the value of the neighborhood. MUCH cheaper than a house to buy and own. Very social, easy lifestyle. ETA: And they can be had for prices that are not even in the universe of the 2 million another poster quoted.

Also, not for nothing, but it's TONS better for the environment.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:15 PM

16. +1000, great points

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #15)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 01:09 AM

57. Rinkeby, Tensta, Fittja, Hallunda, Norsborg, Husby, Alby, etc are all dodgy parts of the

Stockholm area.

The innerstad (central city, Stockholm proper where we live) is all mostly pretty posh, but large swathes of the 'suburbs' have become troubled (for some, like the first 3 on my list for instance, that is putting it mildly).

Tensta










Fittja





Rinkeby (next to Tensta) during the May 2013 Riots








Alby






contrast to our neighbourhood (a part of Södermalm, back ages ago, pre WWI and going back to the 1870s or so, it was a horrid industrial working class slum, it still carries the nickname 'Knivsöder' ie Knife Söder because of all the crime) which is now one of the better parts of the city, it ias been trendy for the last 25 years now



































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Response to Celerity (Reply #57)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 06:59 AM

58. I see what you are saying. (Your neighborhood is beautiful

btw!) but maybe it's a relative thing. My work took me into the homes and neighborhoods of the South Bronx. So maybe with that as my frame of reference the "dodgy" areas seem much preferable.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #58)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 10:05 AM

72. Oh, of course we have nothing like the worst parts of the US (I lived in LA whilst

reading for my MBA, and have been to NYC (Brownsville is not a nice part of Brooklyn) and Miami multiple times, so saw some areas in South Los Angeles, and NW Miami that looked and felt FAR worse) but in no way would I agree with your Kungsholmen mates about no bad parts of Stockholm and other parts of Sweden.

We have had grenade and bomb (many types of weapons of war came over from the Balkans wars, for instance) battles between gangs, police stations bombed and attacked with fully automatic gunfire etc, multiple mass riots (not lately, thank fuck), etc, so not exactly benign and tranquil at times.

We just set an all-time gun murder high and still had 4 months (basically 3 now) to go when we broke it. It is driven, to a vast degree, by males ages 20 to 30 years old and most involve criminal gang elements, like Vårbynätverket who murdered the arguably biggest Swedish rapper, Einár, less than a year ago, in a posh neighborhood pretty near to where we live). Vårbynätverket are based near Fittja (Vårby is the next tunnelbana stop going into the city from Fittja), but have a reach all across the Stockholm region and beyond.

Sure the gun murder rate here is FAR below the US's insane, tragically out of control numbers (fuck all gun jumpers and the NRA!!!!), but still, it's much, much higher than the EU on average, at a level that is not at all acceptable and rather shocking/dismaying for many of the Swedes here.

The troubled neighborhoods I listed are a major factor in producing the criminal gangs who then are now taking us to new levels of the gun murder rates I just referred to. Sweden has done a horrid job of integration of the people (the vast majority in them are immigrants, mostly refugees or 2nd gen, 3rd gens of them) who live in them. But that multifaceted subject is far beyond the scope of this colloquy.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:16 PM

17. I've lived in the projects...

I've lived in the projects... and believe me, I would never do it again. People will steal your clothes off the clothesline, on the third floor! Every stitch of it. Got a car? It will be stolen. Got a crappy car? It will be stripped. Got a bicycle? Push it up the stairs and into the apartment because bike locks mean nothing! Getting food stamps in the mail? You will be robbed at the mailboxes. People throw their garbage in the street instead of in the dumpster a few more feet away. You have to sleep with the lights on, because if you don't roaches will crawl all over you and your babies. Pesticides do NOTHING. Try to walk to a park with your kids? People will try to take away your stroller. You will be catcalled walking down the street with your kids. The city bus will pass you by because it is already full. Drug dealers and prostitutes are your neighbors. I tried and tried to just stick it out, but a storm crashed in the ceiling in my living room. This was in Arizona, long ago, but it will stay in my memory as something I never want to repeat.

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Response to nightthinker (Reply #17)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:18 PM

20. Does this happen in NYC co-ops? Why not?

Extend that logic here.

Remove people IMMEDIATELY when they're trouble makers.

And they're not FREE... you DO have a stake.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #20)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:22 PM

22. Residents in NY co-ops are owners. The value affects the value of their

investment.

Condos, frankly, are less owner controlled because the owners are free to rent, and therefore they can have a lot more residents without a stake in the upkeep.

I live in a co-op. There are more restrictions but I wouldn't trade it.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:24 PM

23. exactly...

then make these "owner only"

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #22)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 09:14 AM

67. NYC

My son has owned two co-ops in Manhattan. The first was in Harlem. The building was immaculate and very well maintained. The one he lives in now is on the lower east side. Again it’s in great shape. There’s a lovely well maintained parklike space between the buildings with big trees and grass and a playground for the kids.

Housing doesn’t have to be single family homes to be nice. As far as I know, there aren’t very many single family dwellings in Manhattan.

My cousin lives in StyTown. She’s been there since the early 90s, so her place is rent stabilized. Probably more people in that huge apartment complex than live in North Dakota. I think it’s mostly rentals but its really nice. Lots of trees, parklike setting, large grassy area.

Large complexes don’t have to be ugly, and or feel cramped.

Where I live in CA, we have a large homeless population but good luck in getting more high density housing build. The NIMBYs throw a fit.

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Response to nightthinker (Reply #17)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:20 PM

21. Affordable apartments and projects are two very different things.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:26 PM

24. Personally, I would rather live out of a shopping cart than in a large condo.

At least with the shopping cart you can get out of range of your neighbor's stereo, and not have to deal with the little board Nazis that always rise to power. The same goes for living in large metro area, been there, done that and hated every minute of it. That is the great thing about this country...choice.

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Response to Chainfire (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:05 PM

30. I live in a co-op. I never hear my neighbors unless I visit them. Our board

has the same financial stake as I do, and they protect it. They're great.

It's easier, I think in a co-op than a condo bc there tends to be much higher owner occupied percentage.

But I am learning that a lot of people have a lot of weird ideas about apartment living.

Choose a solid building in a walking town and it's a great way to live.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #30)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:22 PM

31. My neighbors walk around on four legs, and we get along swimmingly.

I don't want to live in a city because the more I know about people the less I want to be around them. I have lived in apartments, I have lived in Chicago and Miami, but I am done with that life. My ashes are destined to feed young Live Oak tree that I can see out my window. I find that very comforting.

Different people want different things out of life. I am glad that you have found your comfort zone.

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Response to Chainfire (Reply #31)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:28 PM

34. And I'm glad you found yours!

Last edited Tue Sep 27, 2022, 09:25 AM - Edit history (1)

Though I would never compare your choice unfavorably to living out of a shopping cart.

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Response to Chainfire (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:24 PM

32. Well, "choice" if you got the cash.

and I REALLY think you might change your story after keeping your eyes on your shopping cart for 16+ hours a day…and then sleeping right next to it…all in an effort to keep what little bit of crap you might have from being pillaged.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #32)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:30 PM

35. It was a metaphor.

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Response to Chainfire (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:44 PM

39. I understand that...I was just...

making the point that many, even here on a progressive site, have no inkling of what the reality of being homeless is truly like. For instance: having to watch ALL of your stuff 24-7-365(6). Or having to find a sympathetic shop owner/manager amongst a sea of “no public restroom” signs.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #39)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:54 PM

42. I get what you are saying and I address it in a post I was typing while you were posting.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #32)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:53 PM

41. I made choices when I was young that allowed me to choose how I live out my final years.

I came from a dirt-poor family. My father never owned a home and his claim to fame was being the mean town drunk and deadbeat. He died when I was 16 and it was a good riddance. I got no help after age 17, and very little before. After a stint in the Navy, I worked my ass off as a construction worker to build a better life for my family than my parents had. I rose in my work by being the first man on the job and the last to leave. If everyone else was producing two units, I produced three. I married a very smart young woman and, together, we put her through a master's program. I don't feel guilty about my modest success.

I have the greatest compassion for people who have fallen so far as to have to live under bridges, most of whom suffer to some degree from mental illness and were abandoned by Republicans who didn't want to pay for treatments. Society has abandoned them to their fate.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 04:44 PM

27. In Europe, they also have parks and transit and local stores.

I live in a newish apartment building, one bedroom for two people. They closed the mall next to me and other pedestrian-accessible stores. They are slashing local bus routes in favor of light rail that takes longer and drops you off farther than the buses used to. The nearest real park is over a mile away.

This is not a great way to live and if I wanted to raise a family it would be impossible. Our apartment is small. We have been trapped here during Covid. The nice shopping mall that was a huge amenity when I moved here is being torn apart for ice rinks and more ugly apartments.

The solution is lower the population and taking advantage of building housing in cities that got emptied out as people filled up the coasts - where it's beginning to become unliveable because of climate change anyway.

If you want us to live like Europeans, then give us neighborhood bakeries and pubs and big public spaces and lots of sidewalks and balconies and a means to get around easily and safely.

I am doing the right thing by living in a small space but the community is not helping by taking away walkable shopping and safe local bus routes. I am always curious whether those who are huge proponents of small spaces live that way themselves.

And a yard, even a small one, for the pandemic would have been heaven.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #27)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:00 PM

29. With all the zoning rules about apartment developments,

they miss that important one: there should be shopping and green space and restaurants in walkable distance required in the plan.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #29)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:38 PM

36. Not just walkable distance - there need to be sidewalks.

We used to live in a small rental house that was given a bogus 97% walkability score. It was clearly mapped by distance only, because they neglected to mention no sidewalks, no street lights, a place where you needed to walk in a ditch, and a footbridge over a creek that was unsafe because large groups of teens congregated and intimidated people trying to cross it.

Even after navigating all that, you had to walk at least a quarter of a mile to a crosswalk and get across a four-lane road and parking lot with no pedestrian markings to get to the businesses that they thought made our neighborhood "walkable".

Don't get me started on the space in these mixed-use buildings that is supposed to be retail. Rectangle boxes with high rents and no windows. They mostly sit empty.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #36)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:41 PM

38. Yikes. That is rough. And that walkability score is outrageous.

And instead of making the area livable, they spend the money on the buildings that sit empty. SMDH.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:27 PM

33. Whittier, Alaska... mostly one building

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:40 PM

37. Love how you want to force everyone to live

 

To your utopia.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #37)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:52 PM

40. You're feeling forced? OK.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #40)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 05:59 PM

43. You would force it if you could.

 

Because you know what is best for us.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #43)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 06:01 PM

45. Have a lovely and cheerful evening.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #45)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 10:34 PM

53. thank dog this wasn't about...

conventional vs fluorescent vs led light bulbs.

Or bombing the moon.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #53)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 07:02 AM

59. But I WILL fight you about the corn flakes!

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #53)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 11:54 AM

74. You asked for it:

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #37)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 10:57 PM

56. not seeing that

just trying to convince people of something does not mean wanting to force anyone.

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Response to treestar (Reply #56)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 08:57 AM

66. Come live in my gray block towers

 

Or else

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #37)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 08:53 AM

65. :) Right, "utopia." Russia, China Nazi Germany, socialist and RW authoritarian

nations built/build these by the thousands and required/require whole populations to live in them.

Those in North Korea reportedly were typically built incredibly shoddily and are in especially dreadful condition inside, where builders knew only occupants would see it. But of course appeal of design and construction to future occupants is not a top priority where central planners do not expect occupants to have much of a choice.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 06:07 PM

46. Not near me!

It might lower my property value!

Oh, that's right! I don't own any real estate!
Hence --->

But it might be interesting to learn why Dave Chappelle opposed plans for affordable housing in Yellow Springs OH, an extremely liberal community near me (and where Dave resides).
https://consequence.net/2022/06/dave-chappelle-buys-ohio-land-block-affordable-housing/

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 06:36 PM

48. The solution is public housing but pepper-potted in stable communities

so that not all the social problems and poverty are concentrated in the same area.

You don't see huge housing projects like that in New Zealand which has one of the lowest wealth inequality scores in the developed world.

HUD and the local councils build lots of social housing but it is townhouses in suburban neighbourhoods with good school districts mixed with buying up to a maximum percentage of units in some new apartments complexes.

A lot of countries also use inclusionary zoning to require developers to set aside a certain number of units for social housing before a new subdivision can be approved.

Giant government-built tower blocks went out of style in the 80s and most European countries don't build them anymore either. There's no way to effectively police them, they scare off middle class buyers and swamp the local schools with high needs kids.

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Response to meadowlander (Reply #48)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 07:16 PM

52. I'm not talking about public housing.

I'm talking about nice suburbs where apartments can run $2500+ per month... people with decent but sub middle class incomes...

Owner only apartments in block buildings... maybe 150k for a 2+2... so a $900 mortgage

Everyone has an ownership stake. Run the building with strict rules and regulations...

No one HAS TO LIVE THERE... it's an option to overpriced options out there today.

It's not for everyone... but they'd be popular.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 07:07 PM

51. I grew up in the projects

In NYC in the 1950s-early 1970s. I didn’t know anyone who lived in a house. I managed to grow up unscarred. Maybe that’s not possible anymore. It doesn’t help that the American dream included a home, relegating those in grew up in apartment buildings as not quite as worthy.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 10:38 PM

54. No patios or outdoor space?

I could never live like that.

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #54)

Tue Sep 27, 2022, 04:08 PM

95. Lived in multi story buildings with patio/balconies..zero privacy..someone always looking down at yo

Hated that aspect

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Sun Sep 25, 2022, 10:44 PM

55. I have been in these types in Poland and they aren't that bad.

But even on this thread you see people poo pooing the concept.

Modern construction would dramatically improve on the ones built in the mid-20th century. Certainly on the noise issue that seem to drive some folks bonkers.

Density is not always bad. The upper east side of NYC is dense.



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Response to JanMichael (Reply #55)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 07:06 AM

60. People really have some nutty ideas about apartment living!

Everyone keeps saying "crowded and noisy with no outdoor space!"

That couldn't be farther from the truth in my apartment neighborhood. And look at the shots Celerity posted of their neighborhood above! It's frickin' georgeous!

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 07:46 AM

61. The design of the buildings will have to improve

Specifically the ventilation systems so that viruses don't spread like wildfire. Kind of like cruise ships, high population density and not the best HVAC. That said cruise ships probably have better ventilation than most of these types of buildings.

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Response to dclarston13 (Reply #61)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 09:47 AM

69. As I have said frequently in this thread, I live in an apartment. It is one of 15

co-op buildings that forms a neighborhood. Just up the hill from us are huge mansions with all the amenities people here are saying are necessary for survival: lots of land, lots of square footage, lots of room between neighbors.

When Covid hit, we in the apartments fared extremely well. The people in the hill mansions dropped like flies.

Viruses don't spread like wildfire in apartment buildings. It is really astonishingly silly to compare our HVAC to that of cruise ships.

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Response to dclarston13 (Reply #61)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 04:46 PM

82. what are you talking about? what apartment ventilation systems "spread viruses like wildfire"?

every new building I work on has whole house fans in each apartment. they don't share air with other units. pulled in through the trickle vents in the windows, pulled out through the bath, directly to the exterior.

common spaces share ventilation, yes.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #82)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 04:52 PM

83. There are a lot of bat-shit crazy assertions about apartment living in this thread.

Really bonkers!

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #83)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 08:44 PM

86. Follow the links

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7127325/
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/ventilation.html
https://covid.ri.gov/covid-19-prevention/indoor-air-circulation
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/advanced-electronics/our-insights/can-hvac-systems-help-prevent-transmission-of-covid-19
https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/ipac/2020/09/covid-19-hvac-systems-in-buildings.pdf?la=en

I spent the last 3 decades trying to keep dumbasses safe from doing stupid shit. Y'all can believe what you want. I have designed and reviewed HVAC systems. Bringing More fresh air in and using better filters will DEFINATELY reduce the spread of COVID. Most building have inherent separation of some spaces for obvious reasons, like not having to smell your neighbors shits for example. Fire Code covers a lot of this ground but it NEVER considered the spread of infectious diseases. Hospitals are good model but still need improvement, as they have better segregation.

Just cause you survived does not mean your environment was perfect.
I know know what I am talking about. Are any you commenters certified to review fire plans, and HVAC arrangements for the NFPA, I am. So plz STFU.

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Response to dclarston13 (Reply #86)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 09:34 PM

87. Well, aren't you special

telling members to STFU.

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Response to dclarston13 (Reply #86)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 10:21 PM

88. Well! Bully for you! I am sure you are so passionate about

this because, with your vast expertise, you have seen SO many people who got covid because the virus went from one apartment to another through the HVAC system.

So I'm sure you'll be able to provide links that describe any such cases.

Because as far as I know, in all my ignorance, there has been one report of one woman from India, but it was later determined that she caught it from an in-person transmission

But, given that you are telling others to shut the fuck up about this, I am sure you can set us all straight by giving us lots of examples.

I will point out, though, that the last link that YOU provided has this to say:
To date, no reports have been identified of
SARS-CoV-2 spreading through centralized heating, ventilation and air-conditioning (HVAC) systems


But I'm sure they should just shut the fuck up too, right?

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 08:13 AM

62. France has housing like this outside of Paris...they have become ghettos. I am not in favor of this

because I do not believe it will be kept up by the powers that be and will become unliveable at some point. I give you as an example...Father Panik Villiage.

'Authorities decided that the project, once hailed as a prototype for the kind of safe, modern housing the government could provide for the poor, was so far gone that there was no other remedy.

Many longtime residents agree, but it saddens them.

“It used to be beautiful here. You could go downtown and leave your house unlocked and you wouldn’t have to worry about anything,” said True Hamilton, 72, who has lived in the project for 15 years.

“Now, we’re scared to even come out of the door at night. And when we hear gunshots, we hit the floor,” she said.

“I’ve been here so long. I treat the people here like family and they treat me like family. I won’t know how to live out there,” said Kathleen Vila, who moved into the project with her family in 1943, when she was 9 months old.

When the project opened in 1941, it was a clean, modern complex touted as a solution to slum housing. Built to replace shanties for factory workers, it housed nearly 5,000 people in 46 three-story buildings spread over 40 acres.'


I would rather see laws that force builders to build affordable housing within the community. Not giant apartments which will likely fall into ruin in a few years. Coops mixed into community housing might work as the prices do not go up. Thus it would remain affordable.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #62)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 09:43 AM

68. Projects and owner-occupied housing are very different things.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #68)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 09:47 AM

70. It would end up being a project...look at Jared's properties.

He screwed his tenants. And then there were the psychological studies on overcrowding and the problems this caused. I disapprove of building what will become a ghetto...separate the poor from society-make them the 'other'. And where are the jobs going to come from for these sorts of things...mostly they are job deserts.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #70)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 09:51 AM

71. Jared's tenants are not owners. Jared is the owner. The tenants are tenants. In contrast,

look at every co-op in New York. They are owner occupied and people treat them as homes and investments. Because that is what they are.

As far as I have seen in 30 years of living in co-ops in New York and its suburbs, no one has gone starkers because of "overcrowding" , they are not separating the poor from society and none of them has become a ghetto.

PS: my particular neighborhood of 15 co-ops has been well kept and a really pleasant place to live since around 1925.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #71)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 03:47 PM

77. What you are describing is a coop and what about maintenance? Who will pay for it?

I just don't think it works.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #71)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 03:51 PM

78. You could never have huge places and make it work...but you could build co-ops

and mix it in communities that would work. But you would have to stop allowing foreign corporations or any corporations to buy houses and apartments.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #78)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 04:22 PM

81. LOL! You don't get it. There isn't a question about whether this "will work."

It has been a common mode of apartment ownership in large swaths of the country for about 50 years. And it works just fine.

The maintenance is paid for by...wait for it!... a maintenance fee. Just like you pay for heat and water and taxes and a new roof on your home when you need it, we pay for those things on our home.

In the places where this IS the norm, there is a lot less of that corporate ownership you are afraid of.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 08:34 AM

63. Have you seen what "affordable housing" rents for these days?

at least around here.
affordable is a funny word.
even decrepit slum housing is expensive.

Yes everyone wants a garden and a lawn
well that just ain't gonna happen is it.
Too many people in to small an area.
Unless you want to take the rest of our productive farm land and turn it into money sucking lawns.
Thats what is going on where i live.

We need higher density housing.
If we are even a tiny bit serious about reducing our carbon footprint higher density housing is just sort of a duh.
We need to move people from one place to another. You can not do that with 5 acre lots.

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Response to dembotoz (Reply #63)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 03:01 PM

76. Agreed.

Here's what my city in SoCal does.

When they OK a permit to build 80 condos with a starting price of $799k... they force the builder to sell 12 of the homes for $650k

VOILA!! affordable housing.


A lotof people in this thread seem to think I'm talking about public housing or the "ghetto"...

I'm not. I'm talking about suburbs where an APARTMENT rents for $3500 and unemployment is quite low... lots of shopping, tons of amenities... but there's not enough housing and it's too expensive.

THAT'S the spot to plop down a few big ass buildings to house 2000 people who are all dental hygienists, managers, accountants and programmers. But instead of 600k or 800k...

Sell the apartments for cost of building and land... divided by number of units. Maybe $150-200k

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 11:51 AM

73. How would you keep the individual apartments

from being purchased by equity firms and used as rentals for 3 or 4 times the cost of a mortgage? Because that's what happens these days when affordable housing is available, it gets bought by these assholes and prices out the people who could once afford it.

Look at what is happening to mobile home parks.

The biggest hurdle to affordable housing is capitalism and it is running amok in the US.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #73)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 02:31 PM

75. The owners set the by-laws. And the residents are the owners.

In most co-ops, it has to be your primary residence.

In extraordinary circumstances, you can rent your apartment with board approval of the rental plus board approval of the tenants. The lease can only be for one year. After a year, the board reconsiders the tenant. If they have been good neighbors and you want them to rent for another year, they can. But after two years, it must become the owner's primary residence again, or sit empty with the owner continuing to be responsible for the common charges.

That's how it works in my current home and how it worked in the last co-op I owned too.

With condos the building has less control over what the owners do with their individual units, which is why I prefer a co-op.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Mon Sep 26, 2022, 05:26 PM

85. Wow, WarGamer! Who would have thought that DUers would have such

irrational ideas and fears about owner occupied apartments! You scratched a bit of a boil with this one.

As a very happy co-op resident for all of my adult life, I'm finding some of this to be laughable, and some of it frankly insulting.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #85)

Tue Sep 27, 2022, 03:28 PM

89. yeah pretty surprising...

I never really thought much about high density living until I spent extended time in Europe and China for work.

And I discovered... it's actually pretty cool.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #85)

Tue Sep 27, 2022, 04:04 PM

93. One more thing....

As climate change accelerates, high density housing will become a NECESSITY.

Much more efficient to keep 500 people in one building 75 degrees in the summer than 150 SFH's.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #93)

Tue Sep 27, 2022, 04:21 PM

96. Carbon footprint is one of the reasons I do it.

It wasn't a major factor when I bought my first co-op. But as time goes on, I feel better and better about it.

Can't wait till my neighbors come around to the idea of solar panels on the roof. Though tfg took away a lot of the incentives that would have made that easy to pay for.

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Response to WarGamer (Original post)

Tue Sep 27, 2022, 04:00 PM

90. You gotta like that they don't include porches or covered parking.

The resistance to this idea is understandable.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #90)

Tue Sep 27, 2022, 04:02 PM

91. Millions of people live like this worldwide... tens of millions, maybe 100's??

Not everyone hates it.

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Response to WarGamer (Reply #91)

Tue Sep 27, 2022, 04:04 PM

92. Well, now you know why some do hate it.

eom

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #92)

Tue Sep 27, 2022, 04:05 PM

94. for sure... fortunately no one would be forced to buy them.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #92)

Tue Sep 27, 2022, 04:24 PM

97. From what I've seen in this thread, the ones who "hate" it are the ones

who have never had any real exposure to it and have bat-shit crazy ideas about how it works.

If you don't want to do it, that's one thing. But you "hate" it? That's pretty ridiculous.

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