Gender trope discussion from last night

[lapislzi]

I belong to a writers' group. We are all professional writers who enjoy varying levels of success in our craft. All highly literate, well-read. We are also of an older demographic; at 50, I am the youngest member. I might add that we are all progressive to varying degrees from Clinton Democrats to socialists like myself and a couple of others. We are all very close friends, and have been for nearly two decades.

Last night at our monthly get-together, one of the older gentlemen (word use deliberate) was describing a professional interaction with his agent, a woman. He began, "so I received an e-mail from this gal--"

I stopped him and politely asked that he not use the word "gal" to describe a woman. He looked genuinely baffled. "What should I call her?" "She's a woman," I said.

The floodgates opened. Calling someone a "gal," in my mind, is slightly less demeaning than calling her a "dame" or a "broad." Especially when describing someone with whom you enjoy a professional relationship. I have "gal pals," but the use of this term is strictly limited to a fun-and-games context. Others, including women, disagreed and felt I was being "overly sensitive" (always a veiled insult, in my opinion).

Then the word "guy" entered the discussion. Is it demeaning for a man to be called a "guy?" I don't think so, but I would like to hear from men on this. I maintain that "guys" (plural) is gender-neutral. In fact, I would suggest that there are very few demeaning words for a man, unless they refer strictly to his station in life--"bum" or similar.

What was most interesting to me was the fact that this man--a dear friend--was completely unaware that this word might bother someone. I can't say it rose to the level of offense, but it brought a multi-tentacled discussion to the surface.

I want to hear from people about this. Women--are there words that set your teeth on edge? Men? Have you been trivialized or marginalized by language?

Pulling up a comfy chair. I'll be here all day.

[obamanut2012]

1. Except in the South, "guys" is gender-neutral

And even there, can be.

I loathe "gal," and "girl" for anyone female than 17-18 or so. I myself use "young woman" and "young man" for college-aged kids.

[i_sometimes]

2. I won't insult you then by

offering an opinion that you are being overly sensitive.
Pretty soon, no word that describes anything will be safe from the pc hordes.
I am sure there are words that offend me but I am damned if I can think of any.
But why would I bother others about using them?

[lapislzi]

5. "Gal" sounds flippant and dismissive

I won't apologize for that opinion. I am a woman.

Sometimes, when I am with my women friends (girlfriends, sic), we can be "gals." It's like an ethnic slur that only the ethnic group in question feels entitled to use. (Not sure how I feel about that either...but...different discussion). I prefer to be called a woman first.

Also, I made the point that I wasn't really offended; I merely thought that the term trivialized a professional person.

[theAntiRand]

25. "Gal" sounds flippant and dismissive to YOU

And if it didn't really offend you, why did you bring it up? Where I'm from, that would nearly be a "fighting words" level of rudeness.

[lapislzi]

43. To open up a discussion

We're a writers' group. It's as natural as breathing to ask "why did you use that word?"

The discussion that followed was spirited, civil, and enlightening. Case closed.

[SharonAnn]

48. Why not refer to her as his agent? How is gender relevant?

[treestar]

55. +1

[obamanut2012]

50. Exactly, and also

We DO take into account who says it. Quite a few older men and women use words that they think is okay, or even the "PC" usage. In those cases, it is best to gently educate, which you did. You know this man IS a gentleman. Conversely, people know when someone is baiting a woman, an LGBT person, a person of color, etc.

Once, on a very old "Oprah" show, a very elderly, Southern white man stood up in the audience and spoke about how seeing Elizabeth Eckford completely changed his view on equality for African Americans. The thing is, he used "Colored People." The audience went bonkers, but Oprah didn't. She knew that, to this gentleman, "Colored" WAS the appropriate word to use. This show was probably 25 years ago, and the man was at least 85 or so. I've always tried to remember this lesson.

[Odin2005]

69. Your opinion =/= reality.

You are comparing "gal" to black folks using the N-word? REALLY???

[Bragi]

93. I wonder if context matters

If a parade float of boisterous women having fun dressed up as garden furniture passes by, then I might say to my companion: "Hey, did you see the float with all the crazy gals on it wearing garden furniture costumes?"

Alternately, if I were to have the honour of meeting, say, a distinguished and important woman, like say, Hillary Clinton, then I think it would be quite disrespectful to say: "I had a chance to meet that gal."

The same might be true in acceptable use of the term "guy": it's about context, and respect. I don't think the issue is at root about sexism.

Interesting question, though...

- B

[eridani]

96. Depends on context for me.

Men and women. Yes.
Men and gals. No.
Guys and gals. Yes.
Men and girls. No
Boys and girls. Yes.
Ladies and men. No.
Ladies and gentlemen. Yes.

So if he had said "this guy contacted me" in the same context as "this gal contacted me," that would be acceptable, IMO. Just use the right parallel expression and it's all good.

BTW, guys is only gender neutral in the plural.

[obamanut2012]

46. How is objecting to "gal" being over-sensitive?

It's use has historically been quite dismissive. Gal Friday?

I think perhaps you are under-sensitive to real gender concerns.

[Remember Me]

74. AMEN

Woman is the correct word; woman was requested by someone who IS appropriately gender-sensitive; woman should be the word used, without argument or complaint.

[EOTE]

98. How is Gal Friday dismissive?

Isn't gal Friday supposed to be an indispensable assistant of some kind? Some one who has a multitude of skills which makes that person irreplaceable?

[oldhippie]

111. Gee, I always thought "Gal Friday" was .......

... a term of respect and admiration for a multi-talented female assistant.

[babylonsister]

3. 'Gal' doesn't bother me at all

and I've used it. I'm sure I 'learned' the word from my parents (I'm 55); that generation never used it insultingly, so I never took it to be an insult. Very interesting to me that the word bothers you, as I never even thought about it in a negative connotation.

[seabeyond]

4. "What should I call her?" what is telling is he truly was stumped on what he was suppose to say.

Last edited Mon Jan 16, 2012, 11:13 AM - Edit history (1)

if a person said, dont call him a guy, no one would have a tough time coming up with man.

why do we have such a hard time using the word woman? why does it feel like an insult when we call a woman, woman?

i have thought about this, conditioned right along with society to use lady or girl while referring to a woman. woman is adult. woman is older. women are not allow to get older

this is what i believe the issue is. not the end of the world, but it effects us. i have had fun reconditioning myself to woman and owning the word. i have said it to women, when they describe themselves as girls. and that has been fun. i had one woman wave her hand to dismiss it. stop talking. look at me. and say, thank you.

it has all been interesting.

[lapislzi]

7. It sure has

The discussion rolled on over to one of my friends relating her travel experiences. One of her friends (not present) had objected to my friend's use of the word "exotic," explaining that it "other-izes" people.

Interesting how people take words.

[Enrique]

13. "woman" is sometimes too formal

sometimes "man" sounds weird too, so people say "guy" or "young man" or whatever.

[seabeyond]

17. sometimes. but i dont think it is the cruxs of the issue. i have found

when talking about 18-25 yr olds, around that age range, it is hard for me to saw man, woman. they dont feel like man, woman. they dont feel adult. and this was when i was in that age range, too.

often on the board, when in a gender discussion, and it is all age range i will go to male/female or type it all out and say boys/men, girls/women.

[Odin2005]

70. No, it's about formal-distant vs. informal-friendly speech.

At least it is in my area.

People say "man" or "woman" in formal communication or when one is putting psychological distance between you and the person you are referring to, while "guy" and "gal" signifies a psychological closeness, familiarity, and informality.

The socio-linguistics of it is similar to the use of formal and informal 2nd person pronouns in many European languages.

[seabeyond]

75. then why do people have such a tough time using woman to a perfect stranger as in

i saw a girl (50 yr old woman) or i saw a lady in the store. never woman.

we would not say, i saw a boy (50 yr old man) or a gentleman in the store....

there is what you say to in situations. you are correct. but that is not all it with girl/lady in place of woman for a stranger.

[Odin2005]

83. The use of "lady" is a term of respect and deference reserved for older women, in my experience.

In most other cases "woman" is normal.

[Remember Me]

76. I don't buy that

In fact, I don't know if by your analogy you mean "man" and "woman" are too formal or too familiar.

I don't think that's it. I think there had been something of a taboo on calling women women -- there are so many OTHER words that we used to refer to women, and rarely did we use "woman." When we did, it was often in a negative context.

Well, on second thought, it what I just describes fits what you were trying to say, then I might withdraw my original comment. But I want to emphasize that there was some strong undercurrent of resistance to using the word to refer to adult females -- almost as if it were vulgar, on one sense or another.

[undergroundpanther]

89. Maybe this notion of women being girls that never grow

up is so ingrained in women in the US,they shave legs and pits,scared of being"too big", put on make up hoping to have skin like a 12 year old.

[Morning Dew]

6. I think it's interesting that if a group includes even one male

the default reference will be "guys".

Just try referring to a group of five women and one man as women, gals, ladies, whatever and "someone" will take offense.

[lapislzi]

8. I've been with a group of women and been referred to as "guys,"

It's especially common in restaurant/bar context. The server will ask us if "you guys are ready for the check?" In a sports bar, it is practically guaranteed. If you are in a sports bar, you are a guy, regardless of your gender.

[Morning Dew]

11. Exactly. And I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with it.

It is interesting that the "gender neutral" word is a word for males.

That server would not, if the group included a male, ask if "you ladies are ready for the check".

Or if she did, once that server noticed the male, there would be a rephrasing to "you guys"


Men are "too important" or too "embarassed" to be included in a term exclusively used for women - the reverse is not true in our culture.

[drmeow]

66. This is exactly why

I tend to avoid using "guys." I don't get bent out of shape by people using it (although I notice it) but I avoid using it myself. Except in a greeting (i.e., Hey guys), guys used in a 'gender neutral' context tends to be used as filler - are you guys ready for the check can just as easily said as are you ready for the check (or, if one is really concerned about the singular/plural clarity - are you all ready for the check).

If guys really was gender neutral I would have no problem using it but it is not gender neutral. These phrases do not tend to elicit mixed gender visions: I was out with the guys, there are a bunch of guys hanging out, etc. I prefer not to encourage or perpetuate the male as normative/male as default (which is what this is) in our culture.

[Remember Me]

77. Excellent point

You've convinced me to eradicate that usage from my language as well.

[Orangepeel]

94. To some younger women, "dude" is gender neutral

Used informally, and one-to-one. "Dude, what are you doing?"

I rarely hear "gal." it sounds like something from an old movie. To me, it sounds dismissive, but too archaic for the negative connotations to have impact. "This gal can type." "Look at the gams on that gal."

[obamanut2012]

51. That's a good point!

[Odin2005]

71. I refer to a group of women as "guys", too.

"guys" is becoming more gender neutral in my neck of the woods.

[VioletLake]

9. I understand it as an old timey thing.

And let it slide.

[lapislzi]

12. Oh, I wasn't trying to pick on him.

I have been listening to him use this kind of language for 15 years. I thought it was time to open up a discussion about gender terms and their freighted meanings, not to embarrass my friend.

He is a well-meaning man, and very courtly in his behavior (a term generally reserved for old-school types, which he clearly is). My point is how these tropes are embedded in our thinking, and we use them WITHOUT thinking.

[VioletLake]

22. Good point.

Our use of language is largely automatic. A good thing for the most part, although correcting errors requires a degree of mindfulness that is difficult most of the time.

[AngryAmish]

10. It is an interpersonal power play

If you can define how another person addresses you then you have exerted personal power over them. When in court if you don't refer to the judge as "your Honor" of judge, then bad things generally happen - because must retain the dignity of their position or lose credibility. Think about basic training - you don't address the drill sergeant by their first names.

We are all mostly bald monkeys trying to live in a troop. Pecking orders count.

[JustAnotherGen]

14. I'm a Gen X wild 'girl'

Amongst women - and only amongst women - I can be 'one of the girls'. I can speak freely about sex, decadence, and sensual pursuits. Quite common amongst my friends made in my late teens early 20's for us to say "Go on with your bad self girl! Set it off!"

In mixed company - it's women. In professional settings and in reference to such settings - it's women. Outside of that circle mentioned above - it's women. Anyone else isn't going to 'get it'.

The three phrases that set my teeth on edge (especially in a professional setting) -
1. Y'all
2. Y'ouse
3. Folks

'Gal doesn't bother me when it's coming from a much older man. Or a man from the South in my age group. It seems to be just part of the way people communicate there. However - my father - who passed away at 70 this past summer and was a Southerner - he never used 'gal' to describe women. He thought it sounded uneducated/ignorant.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

49. "Folks" is bothersome?

I use "folks" and hear it quite a bit. Nothing intended by that word, and I didn't know it was any kind of localism, like "youse" or "y'all".

Condolences on your father's passing.

[JustAnotherGen]

63. It just irritates me

Makes me think of the Looney Toons. I prefer - "Okay team" as opposed to "Okay folks". Thankfully my current Director is a Brookly born and raised guy so he never uses it!

[obamanut2012]

53. What's wrong with "y'all"?

It's the plural form of "you," and is totally acceptable in every formal and professional setting I can think of, and have experienced. It isn't considered low class or "redneck" or uneducated anyplace I've ever worked, and I'm a teacher.

[treestar]

56. Yes, it has a place as a plural form of "you"

Which other regions of the country don't have - why have this problem? Just use Y'all.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

64. I thought "y'all" was the singular form

and the plural is "all y'all".

[JSnuffy]

91. More like the difference between a couple and a bunch...

[JustAnotherGen]

65. Same as above

I just don't like it.

Especially in a professional setting. I don't like when people say 'axe' instead of 'ask'. And having mentored young black women from the inner city that did not have the advantages I had as a young black woman in an upper middle class suburb -

I was very clear - you will be accused of 'talking white' (rolling eyes because of that bullshit) -

But if you are going to be accused of 'talking white' - then speak like Gloria Steinham - not Daisy from the Beverly Hill Billies.

When you get to President Obama's level - you can say whatever you want. But on that first phone call from the corporate recruiter - Polish. Polish. Polish. You MUST be polished to get your foot in the door. These were mostly young women at the time that went to RIT and U of R post MCC (2 + 2 Program) from the Alphabet Soup Section of Rochester NY. They were tring to get into Xerox, Kodak, etc. etc. in Rochester.

When in Rome - speak as the Romans Do! If I get your foot in the door with someone who went to Aquinas and St. Bonaventure that was born and raised in Rochester NY - don't use Y'all or Y'ouse.


Why would someone speaking only to me use Y'all or Y'ouse. It's just me. My name is Adrienne. Please use it.

[dionysus]

108. no kidding. RIT graduated DUer here.

[Odin2005]

72. In the Midwest the plural of "you" is "ya-guys"

[99Forever]

15. Honestly?

I think you need to lighten up and quit shopping for reasons to be "offended."

This kind of nonsense does nothing but further divisions and minimize actual offensive terms, when they are used.

Just my opinion, since you asked.

[lapislzi]

19. If you had read my post more carefully

I said that I was not offended. I was not looking to start a fight. Moreover, the fact that you think my perception is "nonsense" is way more offensive than the original remark, and says a lot about YOU.

"Lighten up" is not an acceptable response when an issue of bias is raised. Not ever.

[99Forever]

27. If you weren't "looking to start a fight"..

.. then why are you now pissed off when I gave you an honest response to a question YOU asked in a public venue?


And BTW, precisely who put you in charge of what is "an acceptable response" or not? Last time I checked, I am allowed to state my honest opinion on this or any other issue. Has that changed?

[lapislzi]

28. It's not acceptable to me.

I respect your right to voice your opinion, naturally, but I strongly disagree. I think that telling someone their observation is "nonsense" trivializes both the comment and the speaker.

In my opinion, "lighten up" is never an acceptable response to an observation.

I will not be trivialized or marginalized because YOU think my concern is nonsense. That says more about you than it does about me.

[99Forever]

31. But it's ok...

.. for you to "trivialize or marginalize" other peoples opinions.

Got it.

[lapislzi]

38. I neither trivialized nor marginalized your opinion

I strongly disagree with it. If you think that means I've trivialized it, then the problem is yours.

Are YOU the one spoiling for a fight?

[Lance_Boyle]

101. You haven't raised an issue of bias.

You have raised an issue of exquisite hypersensitivity to word choice as either an attention-seeking mechanism or as a cudgel. Are you enjoying the attention, or do you have some attempted metaphoric bludgeoning to attend to?

[Remember Me]

78. This is quite an impressive post

Truly. What economy of expression!

In just 33 words, 99Forever managed to cover all of the following excuses men have been using for eons to dismiss, marginalize, trivialize and otherwise ignore women when we voice our concerns:

I think you need to lighten up -- Otherwise known as the "whatsamatter, honey, cantcha take a joke?" defense. (Hint: it's offensive to tell ANYone to lighten up, but especially women when they're complaining about sexism.)

and quit shopping -- Quit LOOKING for trouble (subtext: it's all in your head).

for reasons to be "offended." -- There was nothing offensive there, except in your imagination.

This kind of nonsense -- Your concerns not only aren't important, they're not even serious.

does nothing but further divisions -- Play nice or we'll make your life even more miserable (if you can imagine that).

and minimize actual offensive terms, -- You do damage to those who have a LEGITIMATE concerns by pursuing this.

[MineralMan]

16. Guy has been traditionally used for men.

In recent years, it's lost some of that specificity, and people use "you guys" to refer to almost anyone. That probably started as a group reference in mixed groups. Now, I've heard women refer you "you guys" with a group of women.

What I have not heard is the singular "guy" used in reference to individual women. "What a guy!" is not an expression associated with a woman.

"Gals" is the equivalent plural, and was in wide use in the past, particularly in the 1940s. It's not so much used any more, for whatever reason.

"Guys" and "gals" are a blast from the past, really. It's not surprising to hear either used in reference to men and women from people over 50 years old. It's pretty common when used by people over 60 years old.

Using "guys" as an informal plural with any group is now common, especially with people under the age of about 40.

I don't think either was or is ever used as a negative intentionally very often. They may be taken as such by some, but in most cases, they're not intended as terms used to minimize someone. I don't think "guy" is ever taken as that.

All that said, most competent professional writers writing nonfiction use neither of those terms. There are so many gender non-specific terms for use in plural references that there's no need for either word, and they can cause offense. For me, I reserve girl and boy for high school age and lower. Young man or young woman is also suitable for high school age through the 20s. Then, man and woman become the standard nouns. It's the same with plurals. Personally, I detest the use of "male" and "female" when referring to human beings, and never use either. For a plural, "people" is the best formal use, and "folks" comes in if you're trying to be "folksy." There are hundreds of other nouns that can be used for mixed groups, like "residents," "voters," "homeowners," etc. All of those usages come naturally if you are experienced in non-fiction writing.

I'm a guy, by the way, in informal speech.

[lapislzi]

20. Thank you for your reasoned response.

The friend in question is permanently rooted in the 1940s. I don't mean that by way of insult. He is charming, and doesn't realize that the world's moved on without him. He's a walking anachronism. I had hoped to use the discussion to launch a teachable moment, because he is not stupid. I think we were able to do that without being insulting or dismissive. That's what reasoned discussion is all about.

Now if only we could get the other older man to stop saying, "fella..."

[MineralMan]

24. It sounds like a good discussion for a writers' group.

All of the groups I've belonged to had lots of discussions about word usage. If you're serious about writing for a living, learning to write without giving offense to readers is a very important thing. It's also something that has to be learned, since spoken English has lots of potential for offense. I've been earning my living with words since the mid 70s, and all of that has just become automatic for me, but it's not automatic until you understand why it should be.

I can't imagine my brain letting my fingers type "you gals." Nope.

[Remember Me]

79. Sometimes the seed planted sprouts --

but may take a while to bloom.

[surrealAmerican]

18. I think you may have stumbled on a generational, or perhaps regional, difference ...

... in definitions on this. The time and place I'm from, it is merely the feminine counterpart of "guy", and no more demeaning than that is. You would never hear a woman referred to as a guy in a singular sense. She might be "one of the guys" or, more rarely, "one of those guys", but never "the guy I was talking to".

I get that to you it sounds like "girl", and implies that it's a person not worth taking seriously, but I would give a friend the benefit of the doubt on this.

[lapislzi]

21. There was no acrimony

We are all close friends. It was more of a jumping off point for discussion.

Generational: definitely. My point is how deeply embedded these tropes are in our psyches that it's startling when someone points them out.

[ljm2002]

23. I'm fine with the word "gal"...

...just as I'm fine with the word "guy". To me, both are simply informal words that refer to people of any age. I also tend to use "guys" as a gender-neutral word, as in "Hi guys" to a roomful of people of mixed gender.

I guess to me, there's a difference between "girl", which implies a female who is not yet grown up, vs. "gal", which is simply an informal term for a female.

[cthulu2016]

26. +1

[niyad]

29. "talking gender neutral blues"

(if you haven't heard this song yet, enjoy)

Talkin Gender Neutral Blues
(Kristin Lems)
January 19, 2005
words and music by Kristin Lems c 2005

This talkin blues (or is it a pre-rap?) is in the Woody Guthrie, Arlo Guthrie, and Bob Dylan tradition....musing aloud to a chord progression. The song is printed in the "Feminist Dictionary" and some other places.

I was walkin down the street one day
Reading the signs that passed my way
And after a while I started to see
That none of those words referred to me...
Good will towards men, all men are created equal,
Praise Him!

Well I asked some friends if they agreed
That they felt left out in the things they read
They told me yes, and added some more
And soon we all felt pretty sore
You got your Congressman, spaceman, sideman....
But I never heard a no house husband!

Well some men came by and a fight began to grow:
�You girls are so dumb you just don�t know,
These here are called �generic words�
They�re meant to include both the bees and the birds.�
Well gee fellas, how am I supposed to know?
I certainly don�t feel included!

Ok said I, if that�s so true,
I�ll just use �woman� to cover the two
�It don�t make a difference to us,� they said
�If you wanna use woman, go right ahead.�
I said, thanks, that�s really sisterly of you
Glad to see you believe in sportswomanship!

�Now hold your horses,� they started to cry.
I think I�ll hold my mares, said I.
�You�re leavin all of us guys behind.�
Why no, we�re all part of womankind.
So don�t fret friends, take it like a woman
You�ll get used to it, just like we all did!

http://www.kristinlems.com/

[cthulu2016]

30. Your friend would have had every right and reason to be offended by your behavior

You are fortunate he was not. He seems to be a far superior sort of person, to suffer such self-righteous self-importance with grace.

[seabeyond]

33. so, a person cannot discuss an issue or thought, regardless of how respectfully they do it

without being labeled

He seems to be a far superior sort of person, to suffer such self-righteous self-importance

interesting manner of telling someone to shut up

[lapislzi]

39. Of course. I ladied it over him for the rest of the evening.

Heaven forfend that I might bring up a discussion topic with a whiff of controversy. Chat over the coffee and cake must be innocuous and as bland as possible.

I will strive evermore for the blancmange of conversation.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

87. "I ladied it over him for the rest of the evening."

Ha. Fascinating that the posters in this thread
who object most to your objection
express themselves with the most intense emotion.
In other words,
"Your objection to a word is so trivial & so oversensitive,
and I am so beyond such trivial oversensitivity
that I want to fight you about it!"

[Raven]

32. Use of the word gal doesn't offend me but it

is interesting that the man had to point out her gender instead of just saying "I got an email from my agent..."

[NYC_SKP]

34. "Gal" is perfectly acceptable in every social circle I'm aware of except among...

...a certain subset of mysteriously socially affected seemingly oversensitive "students" of social interactions.

Overall, it's a term that would die out with my parents' generation if not for the great "to do" that has been created by this certain subset.

So, interestingly and perhaps ironically, drawing so much attention to an otherwise dead and harmless term has served to give it life, and to give it an offensive air.

I'm going to ask all the gals at the office tomorrow if they think it's offensive.

I don't think any of them will.



Now, as for terms that seem demeaning to me, as a man, I think sometimes "boss" is used and I wonder what it means when I'm not the boss of the person.

And, for sure, "sport" is commonly used as a replacement for other terms, negative appellations, that wouldn't be used so easily in public.

[VioletLake]

36. Easy, chief.

[NYC_SKP]

58. HAHAHAHA! Perfect!

"Chief"

[lapislzi]

41. Yikes.

I save "sport" for knucklehead drivers who don't signal.

I have other curious predilections, as part of a mysterious cultural subset. As such, I've been labeled a "mouthy bitch," a moniker I wear with pride.

Is the term harmless because YOU say it is?

[NYC_SKP]

59. Harmless in most circles, was the point I wanted to make. There are 100s of examples:

The whole discussion is not new, it just comes up with different terms but more often than not boils down to context, groups, intent, effect, transmitting person's attitudes, receiving person's attitudes, etc., etc.

A parallel example would be "boy" or "boys".

ie: "The Boys up in Mergers and Acquisitions sure had a fine old time last night!" uses the term "boy" which could be dismissive and even racist, but in this context would probably not be meant or perceived to be either.

"My wife got together with a bunch of gals from work and did their shopping."

"That gal who heads up the Production Division is fucking Sharp!"

Not a thing wrong with either, more often than not, in most circles.

[niyad]

35. from the early days of the third wave of the feminist movement, we learned that words are so very

important in shaping perception, and it never ceases to amaze me how unconsciously people use words without thinking what they actually mean (by the way, have you ever read mary daly's "wickedary"?)

apart from the "girl" issue (at which point I always point out that a girl is a female child--and to accept being called a girl is to accept being treated as a child) is the "ette" and "ess" issue. it is sometimes hard to make people understand that those are diminutives, and tend to make people think in terms of "lesser". it should be suffragist, not suffragette, for example.

it amuses me to watch some people go into near hysterics when one uses gender-neutral language.
and it irritates me that, after all the work that was done (remember "chairperson" rather than "chairman" even when the chair was a woman?) we see and hear the old sexist language, even on the news and in print.

[Remember Me]

80. I agree, but worse yet to my mind

is all the goddamned DEFENSE of the old sexist language right here at DU.

[niyad]

84. having been involved in any number of these discussions here over the years, I agree with you

[JSnuffy]

92. It bothers some and not others...

Not really all that surprising...

[Capitalocracy]

37. Guys is only gender-neutral in the plural

In singular, it always means male, and "gal" is the female analog to it, and I think most people see no diminutive or disrespectful connotation associated with it. Using "guys" to refer to a mixed group may be sort of a throwback to using the masculine as a default for mixed groups (something common in many languages with masculine and feminine suffixes, and which used to be used in English), the alternative I guess being to say "folks".

I can see where you might think gal is belittling and it may have picked up and/or lost that connotation in some circles, but I assure you the man who used the term was baffled by your objection.

[Remember Me]

81. USED to be used in English??

I want either some of what you're smoking or better yet, a ticket to the planet you live on.

[Capitalocracy]

99. Rude much?

[Remember Me]

112. ReallY?

Really?

I express my flabbergasted astonishment that you somehow think the use of the masculine to cover both men and women is a thing of the past, and you find that rude?

Do tell!

I'm actually feeling like you're the rude one. But no matter.

[lapislzi]

40. Please let me say once again

I was NOT offended my my friend's use of an anachronistic colloquialism. I understood it for exactly what it was. Nor do I expect my friend to stop saying "gal" anytime soon, although he might think twice next time.

My intention was to provoke a discussion of buried tropes and how they are perceived.

[seabeyond]

44. we understand you were not offended. but how else to catagorize hysterical, over sensitive

overwrought, outraged, in order to dismiss your post, if we dont assign these emotions to you, woman.

it is a wonderful manipulative tool to create a battle. not a discussion

[lapislzi]

47. Precisely, seabeyond

I guess it's impossible for a mixed-gender group of intelligent adults to discuss gender issues and embedded cultural tropes over coffee and still remain friends at the end of the evening.

[seabeyond]

52. i have found, and very thrilled i have, people who believe womens place is to sit and shut up

must resort to this position, BUT.....

i have also found, many men that see women merely as people, can discuss in disagreement and still respect and get along.

i dont need to have a conversation with a person that feels i am less. i have learned to identify and just not interact with the person. that is ok with me. but i recongize where they are coming from anyway.

i would not suggest a man shut up any more than i would a woman. not a child. i like to hear different perspectives. it just does not hurt

[WonderGrunion]

42. I call everyone "Human", "Earthling" or "Carbon-Based Lifeform"

while admiring their cones.

[lapislzi]

45. I tried that.

People called me a weird chick, even while I maintained low tones.

[dawg]

54. I don't mind being referred to as a "boy" ...

and I will occasionally refer to adult women as "girls". If anyone takes offence to that, I apologize, make a mental note of it, and never address them that way again.

[Odin2005]

73. LOL, I'm 25 and people over 50 tend to call me "kid" or "son".

[Remember Me]

82. Why not go on the offensive and

just drop them -- esp. "girls" -- from your vocabulary?

[dawg]

97. Because I think "girl" and "boy" are perfectly acceptable in some situations.

I know 70 year-old women who have "boyfriends".

[HopeHoops]

57. I'm 48 - BWAAAHAAAHAAHAA!

Okay, okay, I'm almost 49.

And as for "guy", girls (meaning young women to old women) call each other that. "Hey guys!" It's almost gender neutral now. "Gal" is just an older term. How about the play "Guys and Gals"? Women call each other "girls" and "girlfriends". There's no age limit on the terms. "Dude" is universal, but I've heard women use the term with each other. While some of the words are clearly generation-oriented, others have just dropped into the "common use" category - like "munchies".

[niyad]

85. being older than dirt, I can tell you that NONE of my friends use "girls", and NONE of us use the

word "dude". and, once again, a GIRL is a female CHILD.

by the way, the play was "guys and DOLLS"

[HopeHoops]

90. Right - my bad - but "dolls" is even worse. The term "girlfriend" is common around here.

It's mostly a mother-to-daughter term (for grown daughters, not kids), but I've heard a lot of women my age use the term with each other, and always in a complimentary way. And what do you mean "older than dirt" - D'OH! SO AM I!!!

[emcguffie]

60. I'm female, 59 years old.

I don't think "gal" bothers me at all.

It could be that change is indeed taking place, gradually, and so what is okay to me may not be okay to someone younger, to whom the environment is not quite as blatantly sexist as it used to be.

As to the "guys," thing, I have an observation to make as someone originally from the south. Shortly after I moved to the northeast, I started using "guys," or actually "you guys," instead of the southern "y'all," or "you all." To a southerner, at least one from my generation, there is "you" singular and "you all" is plural. It was just about impossible for me to use the word "you" as a plural. And I think in the northeast, in general, everyday use, "you guys" was essentially the equivalent. I'm not sure about it nowadays, as I have lived here so long I don't notice this anymore. I may say "you all" instead of "y'all," I suppose.

I don't know if that makes any difference or not. But I do think our language needs a plural "you" that is different from the singular "you."

And that is my take on "guys" in the north as gender-neutral.

[hifiguy]

61. I've been a writer for a long time

though mostly on technological and musical subjects.

"Gal" has always seemed to be to be the female equivalent of "guy" and as such value-neutral unlke, say, "broad" or "dame" or "chick". I have never attached any negativity to the word and have never met anyone else who has, FWIW.

Though "you guys" can apply to a group of people, male and female.

[blaze]

62. Interesting discussion

57 female here

I've never been bothered by the term gal. As another poster said, I've always read it and heard it as an equivalent for guy... Even while "guys" has become gender neutral.

What took me by surprise a few years ago was the gender neutral use of the word "dude!" I rather like it now, but it took me a bit to get used to.

Maybe my perspective is a bit skewed.... I repair heating and air conditioning equipment... It's sub zero outside? You want your heat to work? Dude, I got it covered.

[justiceischeap]

67. The etymology of "gal"

slang pronunciation of girl, 1795, execrated as a Cockney vulgarism

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gal

I hear this from a certain generation as well, usually older men and women. I wonder if it really isn't a play on "pal." Back when men referred to they friends as pals and maybe their "lady friends" as gals. However, I know certain men use it as a derogatory. Gal doesn't bother me so much if taken in a certain context. If I'm in the workplace and my boss refer's to his female subordinates as gals, that ruffles the feathers but if I'm talking to my 85 year old neighbor and he asks how the "gals" I used to live with are doing in Seattle, I'm not bothered.

[lapislzi]

100. Agreed, context is everything

You have to know your audience. Heck, I have some close women friends with whom I share "slut" as an endearment. But that's private, between us.

I wanted my older friend to be aware that the term he was using may be considered archaic and dismissive by some professionals. Not necessarily us, but someone.

Just a gentle prod. No offense offered or taken by either party.

[Odin2005]

68. OFFS, there is nothing wrong with "gal".

I don't see how it is any different than "guy".

[Quantess]

86. I don't understand how "gal" is insulting or demeaning if it's used in casual conversation.

I never say "gal" myself, but I hear older people and "countryish" younger people use it. It just sounds like casual speech.

Does anyone outside of a retirement home say "dame" anymore? Same with "broad", except it sometimes sounds funny to say it ironically.

Of course it's disrespectful if it's said in a formal or professional context, but, I don't see how "gal" is offensive or demeaning if someone is casually mentioning some random woman in conversation.

But that's just me. I have a range, and sometimes I pull out the less-than-completely-respectful verbiage, depending on the situation.

[opihimoimoi]

88. Me thinks you are correct...mankind must think in terms of Whats Best before making decisions

[lapislzi]

95. Once again, my hat is off to thoughtful DUers

Thank you for taking this topic seriously and bringing reasoned discussion to the table.

The problem is not one "word" specifically, although some words are dog whistles, and some words contain hidden tropes. The problem is attitudes that are generational and need to be steered gently towards a course of greater sensitivity to the impressions of others, and mindfulness of speech.

[Lars39]

102. I remember this being discussed on DU2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=341x10649

I've mostly only heard it used in reference to someone the user felt was inferior in some way, whether racially, economically or morally.

[Bluenorthwest]

103. At least one DUer uses 'gal' as part of her screen name.

This indicates that some see the word differently than you do.

[Ilsa]

104. Hearing a man refer to women as "females" in the office instead of

women or ladies. I've complained to two friends about this, explaining that it makes them sound like they are uncomfortable working with women. What if I referred to all of the men as the males in the office? They both said they didn't know what to call them, as if "girls" was the only other option.

I also explained that "female" is an adjective for many species.

[6000eliot]

105. Your preferred word "woman" actually means "not man."

Just saying.

[lapislzi]

106. I can't fix the dictionary

It proves my point that these tropes have been embedded since the beginning of time, or of patriarchy, whichever came first.

My purpose here was to raise awareness, if only a teeny tiny bit. This trope is but one of many.

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. Refer to people as they prefer. However...

Place too many sideboards on acceptable discussion, and eventually people will select their associates based in part on the absence of barriers to discussion.

The guy could have discussed topic of the professional conversation with his agent more easily in an all-male writers group, without being sidetracked.

I've always used guy and gal interchangeably as an informal third person pronoun. I was completely unaware that this word might bother someone.

[dynasaw]

109. Equally Stupid are the words "girl" friend or "boy friend"

for anyone over twelve. Particularly silly when someone over forty plus talks about their "girl"/boy" friends.

[oldhippie]

110. I think you are way too oversensitive to this .....

... based on your own biases. I'm 63 years old, been around the world a bit, and I don't find "gals" demeaning at all. "Gals" are a group of women. No perjoratives intended. I tend to use "guys" in a gender neutral context.