Once cherished in Miami, Elian Gonzalez is set to become a legislator in Cuba

[In It to Win It]

Miami Herald

No paywall

Elián González, the Cuban boy found clinging to an inner tube near Florida shores who became the center of an international child custody dispute as well as a political battle between Cuba’s late leader Fidel Castro and Cuban exiles in Miami, is set to become a member of the island’s National Assembly after Cubans go to the polls Sunday.

González, 29, was proposed as a candidate for the municipality of Cárdenas, in Matanzas, where he lives and works as assistant director of AT Comercial Varadero, a food import company run by the Cuban Ministry of the Armed Forces.

Married and father of a 2-year-old girl, González said in an interview with the Juventud Rebelde newspaper that he had been encouraged by the Castro brothers to enter politics and thought Fidel Castro “would be proud” of his nomination. He has sometimes spoken in the past about how Cuba’s population has lost confidence in government institutions.

But in many of his recent interviews with state media about his future role, one way or the other he always comes back to his personal story.

And because Cuba’s electoral system is designed in a way official candidates face no competition and only need a small percentage of the vote to get elected, there’s little doubt that González, who as a boy was at the center of one of the most emotional stories in Miami’s history, will become a member of the same government his mother tried to escape from.

[Cha]

1. TY for the No Paywall! I wanted

to see what he looked like.

[Judi Lynn]

15. He has been interviewed by ABC, and other large news organizations, personally.

Earlier image after his father finally got his son back with him. His mother had taken Elián without telling his father, even though they had joint custody.



Elián, back at his own school, after rejoining his father, step-mother, brothers, grandfathers, grandmothers, aunts, uncles, cousins, neighbors, schoolmates, teachers and well-wishers.







Elián with wife during ABC interview







Elián with wife, father, step-mother, and three brothers.

~ ~ ~

Unknown by the U.S. public, operation to retrieve Elián was accomplished with the help of a U.S. American woman, Dr. Joan Brown Campbell:

YouTube by Dr. Joan Brown Campbell.

Vignettes from a Feb. 19, 2008 interview with Rev. Joan Brown Campbell, Director of Religion at Chautauqua Institution, on her involvement in the return of Elian Gonzalez to his father in Cuba.

Wikipedia:

Joan Brown Campbell (born 1931) is an American Christian minister and ecumenical leader. She has standing as an ordained minister in both the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and the American Baptist Church. In 1991, she became the first ordained woman to serve as the general secretary for the National Council of Churches of Christ USA. During her career, she also served as the head of the US office for the World Council of Churches, and later, as director of the Religion Department for the Chataqua Institution.[1] In both cases, she was the first woman to hold these roles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Brown_Campbell

(Dr. Campbell got to know Juan Miguel's mother when she came to the US to visit Elián before he was allowed to return to his home. She visited him at the private home where he was staying outside Washington, D.C., after he was finally retrieved during the late night and put on a plane to the Air Force base and was finally free of the Miami mob! On another US Air Force plane which immediately followed, commandeered by a US Senator from New Hampshire, Bob Smith, the Miami Great-Uncle of Juan Miguel's, Lázaro and company, buzzed along right after him, but they were refused admittance and not allowed near Elián. They got busy and started inventing lies to circulate about Elián, as in, he had been heavily drugged so he wouldn't put up a fight, etc.! WTF!)

[Cha]

16. Mahalo, Judi Lynn!

I don't have a TV or get those publications anymore.. So this is all New to me.

And, very Interesting!

Any word on how his mother is doing

ETA~ I just read in the thread about his Mom Drowning.. So sorry I forgotten about that important detail!

[Judi Lynn]

31. Yup, she didn't make it, nor her boyfriend.

There were two other people who came over on the boat, who survived, too, but our corporate media almost refused to acknowledge they ever existed! Arianne Horta and Nivaldo Fernandez, her boyfriend, survived also. They got zero attention from the national media.

~ ~ ~

Survivors of Cuban Boy's Voyage Feel Ignored

By The Associated Press
Nov. 27, 2000

. . .

Elian was rescued by fishermen on Nov. 25, 1999, after spending two days adrift in an inner tube. Ms. Horta and Mr. Fernandez washed up on the beach at Key Biscayne on the same day. They were initially besieged by reporters and were asked by Elian's relatives in Miami to testify on the boy's behalf in January. But they have not heard from any of them since.

. . .

Ms. Horta and Mr. Fernandez live in a small efficiency apartment. Ms. Horta works sporadically for a home-cleaning business, while Mr. Fernandez works in a warehouse making $600 every two weeks.

. . .

https://archive.ph/2QvxP#selection-267.0-267.44

~ ~ ~

Cubans’ Risky New Voyage Out

BY MARK FINEMAN
JAN. 4, 2000 12 AM PT

TIMES STAFF WRITER

CARDENAS, Cuba — In November, Nivaldo Fernandez Ferran walked away from his life: a decade-long marriage, a new house, a coveted job at a five-star resort, and solid roots in Cuba’s ruling Communist Party.
So did his girlfriend, 22-year-old Arianne Horta-Alfonso, who even walked away from her 5-year-old daughter. The single mother was so drawn to join the 33-year-old Fernandez on a voyage across the treacherous Florida Straits that she left little Estefani with the girl’s grandmother at the last moment.
Four days later, the couple were plucked from a Russian truck-tire inner tube off the coast of Key Biscayne. Shivering and near shock, they told Miami-Dade police investigators that they had paid $2,000 to join a smuggler of human cargo, his family and friends on a hand-fashioned, 16-foot aluminum boat here in Cardenas, their hometown.

. . .

Fernandez and Horta, the only known adult survivors among the 14 passengers who set off at a swampy point on Cuba’s north coast Nov. 21, could not be reached for comment in Miami, where they reportedly are living with Horta’s aunt and avoiding publicity.
But from interviews with their relatives, friends and neighbors in Cardenas, with the family of Elian and others on board and with local, state and federal investigators in the U.S., a different picture emerges than that of persecuted Cubans fleeing President Fidel Castro’s Communist-run island for freedom in the U.S.
A reconstruction of their ill-starred voyage serves as a snapshot of relatively well-off Cubans now risking death as part of a growing for-profit smuggling trade that authorities in Havana believe has at least tacit support among the Cuban American community in South Florida.

. . .

More:
https://archive.ph/BezrC

~ ~ ~

A story I only now just saw, it's short, but interesting:

CUBA: CUBAN GIRL AT CENTRE OF CUSTODY DEBATE
Nov 23, 2007 8:07 PM

- short video at link -

SHOTLIST:
Cardenas, Cuba - January 24, 2000

1. Elsa Alfonso (grandmother of five-year-old Estefani Herrera), speaking with journalists in front of her house

2. Elsa Alfonso refusing to be filmed

3. Estefani Herrera (in yellow dress) with neighbours

4. Vives street, truck passes the Alfonso house

5. Elsa Alfonso rushes into house, holding Estefani Herrera

6. Estefani runs down street, neighbour picks her up and takes her inside

7. Alfonso house, dog in doorway

XFA

STORYLINE:

Natural Sound

As the world watches the international custody battle over Cuban shipwreck survivor Elian Gonzalez, another child who started out on the same boat is at the centre of a similar debate across the Florida Straits.

Estefani Herrera lives with her grandmother in Cardenas, but her mother - who managed to make it to the U-S alive - wants to be reunited with her daughter.

Vives Street in Cardenas - home of a little girl at the centre of the sort of family disruption common to Cubans who have fled to the United States.

Five-year-old Estefani Herrera lives with her grandmother Elsa Alfonso.

The little girl is lucky to be alive.

Her mother, Arianne Horta, started to take the child on the ill-fated boat trip to the United States in late November.

But when the boat had initial problems and had to return to shore, she decided to leave Estefani behind, hoping to send for her later.

On the second attempt to reach the United States, the boat sank, killing 11 people.

Only six-year-old Elian Gonzales, Horta and her boyfriend Nivaldo Fernandez survived.

https://newsroom.ap.org/editorial-photos-videos/detail?itemid=07f4ba6506066db85af0370c8e533454&mediatype=video&source=youtube

[Cha]

42. Mahalo for this..

good ol Derelict American M$$$$$m

[Judi Lynn]

52. Long green. Moolah.

Romney and Bain collegues with their favorite substance

[Judi Lynn]

41. Anne Louise Bardach, former NY Times reporter who wrote "Miami Confidential"

about the drama in Miami, made many trips between Miami and Havana and Matanzas, where the kid lived, said that Arianne and Nivaldo, after working their butts off trying to stay afloat in Miami, were saving up money to buy gifts and planned to make trips to Cuba to visit, and it seemed after they'd been here a while, they really weren't all that wild they had come in the first place!

Her book, Miami Confidential, is excellent. It's not too long, it's loaded with information and will teach you a lot more about the strange politics and bizarre dynamics of the "exiles" and those who chose to stay in their homes.

By the way, she explains carefully that some emigrants actually decide to return to Cuba, and many of them do make regular visits back to the island. It has never been a problem for Cuban ex-patriots to come and go to Cuba, even though they would never admit it to the rest of the country which has been buying into their stories. Their relatives still living in Cuba even visit them occassionally, and are taken on trips inland as far away as New York for vacations. You can find that out for yourself if you ever follow the conversations on message boards the "exiles' haunt, like the Miami Herald. They used to plague CNN's US/Cuba Relations, where some of them even threatened progressive posters! Wierd!

Anne Louise Bardach also did a series for the New York Times on an extended interview she had with Luis Posada Carriles, who was one of the two masterminds of the bombing of a Cubana air liner, which murdered everyone on board, including the entire Cuban Olympic Fencing Team, along with some children. 76 people, in all, died instantly.

I think her article was "A Bomber's Tale." She got national attention with that one. Posada Carriles worked for the CIA, along with the other bomber, a former Cuban physician, Orlando Bosch. Here's Posada Carriles' Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

The two of them are enormous heroes in Miami.









Answering Anne Louise Bardach's question concerning how he lives with the memory of what he did, he said, "I sleep like a baby."

Now he is, of course, taking his dirt nap.

[Marcus IM]

45. I have no idea how or why Cuban "exiles" are the holders of the torch of freedom.

I also have no idea why Democratic candidates pander to a radically right wing demographic that will never vote for them.

[Judi Lynn]

51. It's a complete mystery, isn't it? A total lost cause.

I have read it takes 3 generations of immigrants before the family finally starts identifying with their country of birth. Not sure if that will ever apply in Florida!

[Cha]

48. Horrifying Bombing Innocent

People in an Airplane.

Nothing to hero worship.

Thank You for all the information

[Marcus IM]

54. They have named streets after the bombers in Miami. Posada-Carilles and Orlando Bosch.

Also remember, during the largest global protests in world history against W's threats of invasion of Iraq, all major cities had huge protests against the US invasion.

NOT IN MIAMI.

The Miami protest was headed with a street-wide banner that read - "TODAY AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ. TOMORROW CUBA AND VENEZUELA" - Led by most all prominent self-declared "exiles" and their local, state, and congressional representatives.

Shithole county.

[Cha]

125. Wow.. yeah I was in that

The World Says No to War in NYC.

TY Marcus

[BannonsLiver]

102. Don't forget about the firing squads and detention of political opposition

People never seen again. But they have free healthcare so it’s okay, apparently.

[Marcus IM]

121. You do know that several US states have restarted firing squads don't you?

Few say that firing squads are OK. But, considering the entirety of Cuban revolution to oust the CIA backed death squad Batista, the bloodlessness was notable.

You should read up on the firing squads and hangings of traitors under George Washington.
Americans don't even have universal health care and it’s okay, apparently.

[kskiska]

90. I remember reading at the time

that they used to go back and forth from Cuba to Florida and back to go shopping, so it may not have been a flight for freedom.

[Marcus IM]

122. Cubans visiting family in the US is a regular thing.

That's why there are so many regular commercial flights to/from Cuba in and out of NY, California, Miami and Ft Lauderdale airports.

Lots of Cubans coming to "the greatest nation on earth" and then going back to the homes they love.

Many Americans are oblivious to this fact.

Lots of Cuban-Americans travel to Cuba and back for visits. Many take essentials that are hard to get because of the US's extraterritorial sanctions. Like Aspirin, for example.

Cuban-Americans are free to go any time they want.
The US government has banned travel to Cuba for American citizens who do not qualify for the very specific cases of who are allowed.

[EX500rider]

129. The 1% of Cubans who can afford to travel you mean?

Cuba -2021 avg pay 148 USD/Month

Cuba's doctors make around $50 a month.

[Marcus IM]

131. And how many Cuban Pesos does that convert to?

Measuring Cuban salaries is US dollars is whack.

How many pesos = a US dollar?

[EX500rider]

133. When it comes to buying plane tickets it matters

[Marcus IM]

140. Yep. As you are noting, they're economic refugees.

We agree on that.

Hooray.

[EX500rider]

142. That and the political oppression & the lack of free speech

[Marcus IM]

145. Yeah sure. Castro and the evil regime forces universal ed and health care on them.

And Fidel personally trained all the doctors - at gunpoint.

Fidel also set up the oppressive garbage pickup schedules and street sign colors.

If one were to believe anything close to that, one would be a real fool.

[EX500rider]

146. That doesn't mean too much

The Soviet Union had free medical care and universal education and garbage pickup.
Didn't change the fact that they were an oppressive dictatorial regime.

[Marcus IM]

147. Cuba is not the Soviet Union.

But, it's good to point out that the Soviet Union is no more, and what has replaced their systems has ended up with people in worse conditions under a capitalist dictatorship run by the oligarchs who stole what the people built.

Heads up! Cuba is not the Soviet Union.

[EX500rider]

149. No, just another failed communist economy.

Even without the US embargo they don't have much to trade.

Cuba mainly exports nickel, cane sugar, cigars, fuel, beverages, metallic ores, fish, cement, oil and thyroid extract.

[Marcus IM]

150. Uh huh. Sure. You're the expert.

The US sanctions have created austerity for over 60 years. You simply don't know where Cuba would be if that wasn't the case.

Your comparison is nonsense.

[EX500rider]

153. Sorry US embargo or not, when your main products are sugar & cigars..

....you aren't going to get very far.

The US isn't the only market in the world, Cuba trades with Venezuela, China, Spain, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and the Netherlands etc.

But like every command economy ever they don't make much to export.

[Marcus IM]

154. Your point is null and void, and deliberately misleading.

The US's sanctions are extra-territorial.

They are on businesses that do business in Cuba.

The nations of China, Spain, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, the Netherlands do not make anything.

But corporations in those nations do. They cannot do business in Cuba and the US. They must pick one or the other.

For example, German company Bayer AG cannot sell Aspirin to the Cuban healthcare system and do business in the US. So, Bayer is forced by the US sanctions to sell to only one or the other. Guess which market Bayer AG is forced to chose?

Your point is null and void, and deliberately misleading.

[EX500rider]

155. Perhaps you should look up who Cuba's biggest trading partners are

The countries I listed.

[Marcus IM]

156. And does this trade include companies/products sold in the USA?

Nope. That is the nature of extraterritorial sanctions.
Like the Bayer AG/Aspirin example I gave, but you are deliberately ignoring.

[EX500rider]

157. Feel free to point out one command economy that ever worked out well

[Marcus IM]

158. Define "worked out well".

If you are measuring by wealth and capitalist-based inequality, then Cuba fails.

If you are measuring by secure social infrastructure and universal safety nets and democratic socialist equity, then Cuba does very well.

[EX500rider]

159. Yes everyone's equally poor that's great..

... well except the top government officials cuz you know, all the animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

[Marcus IM]

161. You are describing America.

A near totality of US congresspeople are millionaires.

A large majority of Americans don't have $400 of cash or credit for an emergency which will cause bankruptcy or homelessness.
Over 42 million Americans face hunger each and every day including 1 in 6 children.
Every year over 45,000 people are gunned down in the US.
Firearms recently became the number one cause of death for children in the United States, surpassing motor vehicle deaths and those caused by other injuries.
Shooter drills in most all public schools in the US.

You call that successful?

Cubans face no such dire straits.

That is a huge success story (except to people who espouse exploitive/rapacious capitalism).


{edit: fixed some spelling}

[EX500rider]

168. Google average American income

Then Google average Cuban income.

Like I said everyone being equally poor isn't really selling point in my opinion.

[Marcus IM]

169. average works like this...

Let's say there's 3 unemployed guys in a bar.
Then, Bill Gates walks into the bar.
What is the average income of the four in the bar?

[EX500rider]

171. I doubt Bill Gates would move the avg income needle at all

Most billionaires don't get big paychecks as they live off investments and stocks, not paychecks.


Cuba -2021 avg pay 148 USD/Month
That's $1776 a YEAR

[EX500rider]

170. ".....and democratic socialist equity" lol, it's a one party state

What type of government is Cuba under?
Type: Totalitarian Communist state; current government assumed power by force January 1, 1959.
Political party: Cuban Communist Party (PCC); only one party allowed.

Social infrastructure? lol
Like housing and roads?

?1625228552

[Marcus IM]

174. You post 2012 pics of Hurricane Sandy damage to Santiago as a claim?

Winds of 115 mph. Twenty foot storm surge.

How utterly foolish and dishonest of you.

[EX500rider]

175. Actually I googled housing in Cuba

Lots of pictures came up of their dilapidated housing.

[malaise]

172. You are correct

Too many folks who claim to love democracy think democracy is deference to Westernn interests

[Marcus IM]

173. Yep.

Unlike the person I was responding to, I am quite familiar with Cuba, Cuban politics, US policy & laws regarding Cuba, and US/Cuba relations.

Unlike the person I was responding to, I have a deep interest in the subject. To me, it's not just some rhetorical argument on a social media platform to play with.

[Rhiannon12866]

20. Thanks so much for the photos, Judi Lynn!

I was just about to look up that famous photo that we all remember... Such a cute little kid.

[Judi Lynn]

32. It was a stupendous photo, wasn't it? The transformation in the kid's face was so clear!

The moment his dad had picked him up, was holding him, he simply glowed! He had looked so sad, so unhappy in every single photo while he was alone with the Miami relatives, away from his drowned mother and his very much alive, and loving father.

The photo does stay so clearly in one's mind from the first sight of it. There was absolutely no way to conceal it, or tell a lie big enough to explain it as anything but love.

[Rhiannon12866]

33. I sure agree, that infamous photo of that terrified child was striking, one that can't be forgotten

I'm so glad to hear that he's had a happy life with his father and his family and that he's grown up having overcome that early trauma. Thanks so much for all the photos.

[Judi Lynn]

44. You have to remember emotionally it had to be like a pressure cooker in that house!

The crowds of "exiles" surrounded the house from morning until very late at night, his great-cousin, Marysleysis chewed the curtains continually, hysterically, totally immersed in her tv camera character she pulled out from her lower region for her daily tv appearances, they were surrounded by cameras, reporters, the hierarchy of the Miami "exile" political structure, the mayor, Cuban Congressmen and women, being dragged out of the house and driven up to Disney World for publicity photos, being given a Labrador puppy by the mayor, for Elian, and all those publicity photos, being given a free entry into the local "exile" owned Lincoln Marti private school, the insane evening they kept him awake all night, sitting on the middle of a bed, rehearsing a speech to say to the camera pretending he was sending a message to his dad, Juan Miguel, saying "I do not want to go back to Cuba" while he was barely conscious, so tired and disoriented, etc., etc., etc.

As some papers indicated later, there were armed militants holed up in the houses around the Gonzalez house, ready to shoot the noses off the "Feds" if they dared to show their faces to legally retrieve the little guy. They did, fortunately, not see fit to be awake when the "Feds" did show up after midnight. That's a good thing. Of course, some of them howled and screeched that the agents had brutalized them, and one of those loons wore a neck brace well after, claiming he was really, really scuffed up bad!



The guy who was hiding the kid in a closet in the early hours pretending he has been mortally wounded.

Remember, the court had already ordered the great uncle to let him go to his father.

Marysleysis had informed Janet Reno on the phone, who was speaking with her, that some people around there had guns. That was her sideways threat of violence.

Orlando Bosch, this guy, the other Cubana air liner bomber,



had already been in and out of that house personally, and was close at hand, possibly staying in one of the neighboring houses.

[kskiska]

94. I remember how they would send him out in the yard to play

and crowds of people would gather to watch him. It was creepy. They even believed he was a sort of messiah and prayed over him.

[Marcus IM]

98. The crowds literally occupied the street for the entire debacle.

The CANF rented the house behind the uncle's house to house their armed "security".

The ATF raided that house moments before the Border Patrol and INS raided the uncle's house to stave off any gun violence. They arrested several exiles who had felony records with guns. They were openly threatening to open fire on any entity that came for the child.

[Marcus IM]

47. I live in Miami. You should have seen the local media pandering to the CANF kidnappers.

Like the Miami family ... they were/are held hostage by the radical and violent CANF and RW "exiles". Otherwise, firebombings, car bombings, death threats, job loss, and on and on are the method the moderate Cuban expat community is silenced by the fascists among them.

If you remember, Marisleysis Gonzalez had several nervous breakdowns during the hostage event - because they really wanted to send Elian home to his Dad and family in Cuba, his home and the jurisdiction of paternal custody (as per The Hague Convention on Child Custody), but, they couldn't - or they would all be personas non grata and face the very dangerous wrath of the RW exiles and their bootlickers.

That's where AG Reno stepped up to save them, and the child.

Miami was once listed as the terrorist capitol of the US because of the Cuban "exile" bombing campaigns in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

[Judi Lynn]

55. Thank you, so much, for that clarification. It answers so many questions for me.

I absolutely DO remember Marisleysis was hospitalized for a time, now that you jolted our memories. I had totally forgotten.

That would surely explain so perfectly why she was so over-extended, and anxious throughout this long, long episode which went on forever! They were in the news almost every day, on tv at night, and in our newspapers, and magazines.

And the Cuban American National Foundations was controlling the entire operation. That WAS the reality. the CANF was even the financial presence behind so many of the exile terrorists, like Luis Posada Carriles, who was in constant contact with him according to his comments to reporters.

You added the actual structure behind this mind-boggling story. Thank you!

[malaise]

65. You nailed it

as always

[Marcus IM]

23. Castro is gone. No longer forcing them to smile.

Because everyone knows that Castro forced them to smile.




Great pics.

[Judi Lynn]

35. Oh, yes! So true! He secretly threatens to kill them if they don't act happy!

He was relentless! Of course, he also was so busy eating children, as they claimed from Miami. (The forerunner of Hillary Clinton and John Podesta molesting children in the Pizza Restaurant!)

The psychology of it all worked like this, in forcing children to act normal and happy:

What a mean guy he was!

Oh, yes, and no elections! All the geniuses know that, right?

[EX500rider]

82. Yes, they were terribly happy

Why else would you out to sea on this:

[Marcus IM]

84. Why else? How do you explain other LatAm migration to the US.

Last edited Thu Mar 23, 2023, 02:38 PM - Edit history (2)

It's about jobs and earning enough to send back home.

Keep in mind that Mexico is not suffering from a myriad of US sanctions designed specifically to cripple their economy as the US does to Cuba.

Plus, the US offers over 20,000 legal immigration visas every year to Cubans. Not all are even applied for.
If the applicants do not pass a US conducted background search, they are refused (a normal process).
Cubans can get on a raft or boat and remain in the US no matter what, and receive extra special perks available to Cuban immigrants only. Instant access to America's social systems ... instant Social Security, instant I-4 work visa, instant access to Section 8 subsidized housing.

I know that you know this.

Your post does not indicate what you think it does.


{edit: fixed spelling errors}

[NullTuples]

2. Sorry, there's no way he's 29; that would make me...old.

He's also an industrial engineer, from what I read.

Here's a timeline for those who don't remember (I certainly didn't remember most of it):

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/elian/etc/eliancron.html

[Marcus IM]

61. In Cuba he has to pay back his massive school loan for that engineering degree.

[toesonthenose]

69. Agree! I don't understand how everyone gets older except for me lol!

[malaise]

3. He was never cherished in Miami

ReTHUGs and RWs tried to use the kid for politics and deny his father the right to bring up his own child.
after his mother and others drowned.
It was plain old kidnapping for ideology and Dems enforced the rule of law and sent him home.

[Samrob]

4. He would have become a GQP political tool to this very day.

Reno did right.

[malaise]

6. She followed International Law

not Florida RW politics.

[Marcus IM]

7. Except in Miami, the mother might have been charged with child endangerment had she survived. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

46. So true! As you remember, the adult female survivor returned her daughter to Cuba,

after deciding the trip would surely be too dangerous for her daughter, which Elisabet should have done, as well. Clearly, she didn't fare too well, herself.

Not a good idea for a child.

How many Cuban children do other rafters bring across? I remember none besides Elian.

Child endangerment would be exactly right.

[Marcus IM]

49. All the other survivors returned to Cuba. Life was too hard in Miami.

No rent control in Miami.

In Cuba, rent is 10% of one's income.

Tyrants!

[Judi Lynn]

56. I've thought of that so many times. What a culture shock!

[Deuxcents]

8. I agree with you, malaise. Miami smothered that poor kid for political reasons.

Sounds like he’s making his own way in life now.

[Marcus IM]

10. It was the CANF and the hard line so-called exiles.Not Miami.

CANF - Cuban-American Nation Foundation. Founded by Ronald Reagan and Jorge Mas Canosa

Miami Cuban "exiles" were pretty divided 50/50 over the parental rights vs the kidnapping.

Kidnapping this child was a Cuban "exile" political recreation of when Fidel's wife (Marta Diaz-Balart) illegally took their son to the US despite joint custody, right down to the black Labrador Retriever representative Lincoln Diaz-Balart gave Elian. Gringos didn't know it, but it was deep historical messaging in the Cuban "exile" eternal war on Cuban sovereignty.

[malaise]

11. You are correct

I used Miami for location - great post
You nailed it.

[Deuxcents]

18. So did I. I know everyone in Miami was not involved..for instance...my family.

[malaise]

19. Ha

We all know the culprits😀

[Judi Lynn]

50. Glad you said Lincoln Diaz-Balart was the one who bestowed the beautiful pup.

I had remembered it wrong, and lived on with the belief it was "Crazy Joe" Carollo!

Thank you for pointing out the wild struggle over Fidelito. I'm sure that scarred the kid for the rest of his life.



Before the divorce.







Fedelito with Paris Hilton





Fidelito with mother, who lived in Spain.

I just remembered, Marcus IM, Florida Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart is the nephew of Fidel Castro's ex-wife, Fidelito was Lincoln Diaz-Balart and MSBC's Jose Diaz-Balart's cousin! Also, Congressman Mario Diaz-Balart's cousin. Wow.

Small "exile" world, isn't it?

Thank you for your great information!

[Marcus IM]

53. I cannot watch Jose Diaz-Balart on MSNBC. He was full throated in his support for the kidnapping.

He's a full-bore CANFer. And like Gloria Estephan and Andy Garcia and Arturo Sandoval and Liz Balmaseda and Jellybean Benítez ... all mudderfokers who fully supported the kidnapping right at the same time as Andy Garcia portrayed Sandoval in their propaganda-for-cash movie "For Love Of Country".
They were all promoting its release and using the kidnapping as a prop.
Disgusting pigs. Yes. That's how I really feel. It still frosts my arse at the cruelty and abuse of a small child.
Glad Elian turned out OK and happy.

[Judi Lynn]

57. Good for you! I heard him trying to work in anti-Cuba gibberish and left, at the first.

Just can't take even one word of that, even though he tries to seduce his audience with his honeyed tones and "really nice guy" act. He's very much an anti-Cuba politico.

Have never watched a movie with Andy Garcia in it. Learned who he was long ago, and always ignore them.

I do remember he turned up in Miami for political protests, side-by-side with Gloria, daughter of a Batista thug, etc.

It was outrageous exploitation of that poor child who had just lost his mom to the sea, and no father to comfort him, and make him feel wanted. Just strangers yelling and grabbing, and lying their arses off!

[Marcus IM]

58. The CANF used airline bomber/murderer Orlando Bosch as his pediatric doctor.

Dr Orlando Bosch ... a pediatrician who murdered children with a bomb. smh

Hard line "exiles" lapped up the horrors and circus of child abuse.

It was all in-your-face thumbing their noses at patriotic Cubans in Cuba. That is why Cuba had Friday rallies for months until Elian was returned. It was about the terrorists who had terrorized Cuba for decades - with a wink and a nod from the US gov't - who were being elevated in the US media as some kind of "freedom fighters". Gringos didn't know about that part - thanks to our ever faithful corporomedia.

Miami city and county mayors were elected on the pro-kidnapping Elian platform. Governors, Senators and Representatives were too. Cretinous news anchors get great jobs at networks too.

[malaise]

64. Thanks for the pics

and details - I knew about the Balart connections which is why I never watch the hack on cable

[BannonsLiver]

101. Is that the one hour you don't watch MSNBC?

[Skittles]

9. CORRECT

once it was determined the father was not an unfit parent there never a real choice about returning the boy....

[Marcus IM]

59. Had nothing to do w/his father being unfit. That was a BS RW talking point/lie.

It had everything to do with jurisdiction. The jurisdiction for the Gonzales family was/is in Cuba - where they live. The US and Cuba are signatories to The Hague Convention on Child Custody that mandates the jurisdiction of child custody is where they live. That was the 11th Circuit ruling and the SCOTUS refused to overturn it.

Returning Cuban children who had been abducted or brought to the US illegally (w/o parental consent for minors) was always a regular routine - and it still is.

But not when the CANF decided to use Elian for their propagandistic cause, and the INS succumbed to the CANF's pressure and improperly handed the child over to the drunken uncle's family. When the INS sought the child's return, the CANF refused and filed court cases, sparking the standoff.

[Skittles]

60. fitness of a parent is usually a consideration in custody disputes

over and OUT

[Marcus IM]

62. Yep. Where there is jurisdiction. And that was in Cuba.

But, there was no custody dispute.
The mother and father had joint custody, as per the Cuban family courts.
The "custody dispute" was a pure Miami-based lie.

End of story.

[Hortensis]

123. No one said the allegation was REAL. The idea was that

children belong with parents who want and can care for them. Period. Parents' rights to their children also matter.

It was clear that this father wanted and could care for the son who was stolen from him.

[Marcus IM]

124. I agree w/you 100%

There was no "family dispute" over his parental qualities. Just accusations fabricated by CANF lawyers as a way to stall the resolution of the case in hopes that they could shop around for a judge to rule in their favor.

Minors cannot seek asylum. The entire legal case was about child abduction by the United States.

All the best. Cheers.

[Hortensis]

127. :) Knew you did. As far as THAT goes.

I'd say it was about child abduction by special interests, some intragovernmental, for political purposes. Specifically, NOT by "the United States." I've appreciated your posts, which make it clear you know a lot about this case, but that little bit's not a niggling detail to me.

The federal government at first deferred to FL courts to handle; but when a FL family court came down in favor of American custody, Democratic SecState Janet Reno under Democratic President Clinton stepped in. The rest played out as a display of proper federal-state jurisdictional procedures that ended with the return of Elian to his father.

Although delayed by the political circus and requiring federal intervention, our judicial system ultimately adhered to long-established laws and principles and arrived at the conclusion it was designed to. Doesn't always happen that way, of course. Such as under tRump.

[Marcus IM]

132. I understand your points.

I like your analysis.

Although, it was the INS that improperly handed the child to the Lazaro Gonzales household. In a regular proceeding they would not qualify for custody because of inadequate space (Elian had to share a room with Marisysis), and, of course, the multiple felonies by occupants of the household.

Had the INS conducted itself with regular order, and had the INS and Border Patrol picked up the child immediately after the family refused to return him to the INS, then none of it would have happened - the child would have been retuned to Cuba as per regular, and required, procedure. Technically, even though the child was on the drunken uncle's property, Elian was in the custody of the US Gov't via the INS.

That's how I see it now - after having all this time to flesh out many more details over these years and digest it all.

Haven't really discussed this much. Too many orange and DeSantis distractions here in Fla.

TY for engaging in the chat.

Cheerio

[Hortensis]

143. :) Cheerio. Nice to chat with someone who does the homework.

[kskiska]

28. If the "Miami Relatives" had raised him

like their own sons, as they'd wished, he'd have been out robbing tourists like they did.

[malaise]

141. Great post

Good spot - they don't give a shit - they'd have made their political point - he'd have been in a Florida prison by now

[Marcus IM]

5. Miami Hurled bullshite.

González, 29, was proposed as a candidate for the municipality of Cárdenas, in Matanzas

Do they say who proposed him as a candidate? No.
I'll tell you. The citizens in his district, in open candidate nomination sessions. No party selects any on the slates of candidates - the citizens do.
Anyone over 18 w/o a felony can run for offices.

And because Cuba’s electoral system is designed in a way official candidates face no competition

Miami Hurled is deliberately misleading readers. They are referring to the Ratification Election - where the winner of the multi-candidate elections must be ratified in an election by 50% +1 of the electorate, or another round of candidate selections begin and another election is undertaken. Candidates need to obtain at least 50%+1 to take their seat in an assembly - in this case, the Municipal Assembly in Cárdenas.

[malaise]

12. THIS

All propaganda and spin all the time

[tritsofme]

13. Let's not spread nonsense. There are not fair and free elections in Cuba.

https://freedomhouse.org/country/cuba/freedom-world/2022

[malaise]

21. They sure are free from the billionaires

That is all

[Marcus IM]

24. What about all those pics of Swiss skiing trips and Monaco condos by the Castros?

[malaise]

63. ROFL

[EX500rider]

130. The whole country being poor is not really a great talking point IMO

[Marcus IM]

134. Well, if you measure the greatest amount of wealth in the hands of the fewest, Cuba has failed.

smh

[EX500rider]

135. Conversely if you measure the largest amount of poor people

in the country I guess they're winning

[Marcus IM]

137. If you only use peso income as a measure, you're way off course.

Cuba's and Cuban's wealth is in their democratically created socialized systems.

With meager resources, while under economic attack for over 60 years, Cubans (not Castro) built out their infrastructure. They have accomplished so much with so little it is quite impressive. Yet, you side with Wall Street, ignoring humanistic social reality and measuring people by the size of their wallets.

Nice to be comfortable to be so blithe about it for you.

Poor Americans would give their "left ones" to have what poor Cubans have.

[EX500rider]

138. Yes that's why so many Americans try to get there by raft

... oh wait

[Marcus IM]

139. Over a ten year waiting list for Americans who seek to emigrate to Canada.

And ... holy shite ... they have to pass a Canadian background check. Uh oh.

But, they could just cross over and stay, no problem. Right?

Interesting that there's so many Latin Americans and Caribbean islanders from so many nations who come to the US, isn't it?
Strange that so many come here to work and hopefully make enough to send back to their families back home, right?

But not Cubans. Nooooo. They're much different, right? They're not coming to the US legally and illegally because they want to make more money and hopefully send some home to their families, right?

It's not like Cuba is under extreme sanctions specifically designed to cripple their economy, right.

They're escaping (((gasp))) socialism.

Right.

[Marcus IM]

22. I lived there during elections. Have family there.

Not relying on Mellon-Scaiffe/ International Republican Institute funded Miami based Cubanet paid-for propaganda reports. Sorry, I'll believe my lying eyes. And actual reality.

Here ...

From another DUer who lived there ...

Electoral Process Continues Smoothly Nationwide (Election season kickoff in Cuba)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x31936

[Marcus IM]

25. Ballots are counted and tabulated in public.

Members of the Young Pioneers take shifts guarding the ballot box and helping out on election days.

The ballots are counted and tabulated in public.

Cuba Opens Election Year 2008
http://circlesonline.blogspot.com/2008/01/cuba-opens-election-year-2008.html

A novel feature of Cuban elections is the presence of 5th to 9th graders at polling stations. Besides getting acquainted with this important civic responsibility and guarding the ballot boxes, they also assist voters with disabilities.

On Election Day the polls will open on Sunday from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m., however anyone still in line at the scheduled time of closure is allowed to cast their ballot. The manual vote count is done in public immediately following the closing of the polls.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=31936&mesg_id=32074

[groundloop]

30. Thanks for posting. I've visited Cuba and know a bit about them but still have a lot to learn.

And if our government will ever get around to reopening tourist visits to Cuba I'll be on my way back, it's a fascinating place to visit.

[Marcus IM]

43. Lots of kybd commando experts on Cuba.

Most of whom know zero about Cuba, as it is now.

I visit family regularly. I take regular flights out of Miami or Ft Lauderdale. It (direct family) is one of the allowed categories set by the US.

I really hope you get to go.

If you ever get to Havana make sure that you go to the literacy museum, and learn about the brave teachers going out to the farthest reaches to teach poor Cubans how to read in the early years, post 1959 Revolution. They were under constant violent attack, some murdered, by Alpha 66 terrorists based in Miami. A museum of true dedication to Cubañia and to each other.

Literacy Campaign Museum

https://www.cadenahabana.icrt.cu/english/havana/literacy-campaign-museum-20220120/

[BannonsLiver]

100. Maybe you could return there permanently

According to your posts it’s basically paradise and you seem to be deeply unhappy with the US, based on your comments in the thread.

[Marcus IM]

103. Can you link to any post of mine that claims Cuba is a paradise?

As a matter of FACT, I oppose the US's extraterritorial sanctions on Cuba because it causes suffering and privation there.

How is it that you and others don't understand that?

Nice to see some of the "love it or leave it" peeps here miming RW talking points of yesteryear.

[BannonsLiver]

104. Up and down the thread, so there's that

It’s not a love it or leave it question. It’s a why do you live in a place you clearly like less than Cuba question. Sorry that’s so offensive to you.

[Marcus IM]

105. So, not supporting policies that harm my family is evidence that I don't like the USA?

What utter doggerel.

Can we say that (maybe) you don't like America because you don't support the GOP and their policies? Ridiculous.

And yes, you are saying in other words "love it or leave it" despite your mewling.

[BannonsLiver]

106. I can't stand present day America and most Americans

Our politics are gross. Most of our media is corrupt or compromised. Our people are mostly idiots. So that’s not the flex you might think it is. Anyway, I’ll leave you so you can get back to romanticizing Castro.

[Marcus IM]

108. Please point out where I have romanticized Castro?

More straw man BS from you.

I support Cuban sovereignty as Cubans in Cuba choose it. Period.

[Marcus IM]

107. If I was pointing out the positive qualities of the Netherlands, would you say the same?

How about if I or others were to discuss the positive and quality infrastructures of France or Germany for example ... would you say the same?

I doubt it.

It reveals a certain Cubaphobia on your part. Probably based on your lack of knowledge of the country.

I am a Cubaphile. I know the situation on the ground there. Some of my family lives there. They are going thru serious hardships at the hands of the US sanctions.

Why not join in the spirit of edification, rather than a personal "love it or leave it" attack. That would be nice, and liberal of you to do so.

[David__77]

14. I was really glad when he was rescued from the kidnappers.

…

[Archae]

17. Whatever happened to the Miami family?

I'd be willing to bet some of them are currently in jail.

[Judi Lynn]

26. They had problems with the law well before Elin floated into town, if you'll recall.

From the New York Times:

A Bumpy Path For Miami Kin Of Cuban Boy

By Peter T. Kilborn
Feb. 9, 2000

. . .

The two-bedroom, one-bath home of Lazaro Gonzalez, 49, his wife, Angela, and their daughter, Marisleysis, 21, is the gathering place for an extended family that itself is divided over Elian's future. And it is the focal point of a public relations struggle between Miami's Cuban-Americans and the Cuban government of Fidel Castro. But this extended family is also one that has run afoul of the law in ways that could affect their bid to gain permanent custody of Elian, whose father in Cuba wants him returned, experts in custody law say.

Lazaro Gonzalez, an automobile mechanic who moved here from Cardenas, Cuba, 15 years ago, has four convictions for driving under the influence of alcohol during the 1990's, according to the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles. His license was revoked or suspended for a total of three years. He completed an alcohol treatment course after his most recent conviction, in July 1997.

Mr. Gonzalez's brother Delfin Gonzalez, 63, a fisherman who usually lives in Marathon in the Florida Keys but who is a staunch supporter of Lazaro's custody claim and has been staying here with the family, has four convictions for driving under the influence over the last decade, most recently in May 1997. Two of the cases involved accidents with property damage or personal injury. Delfin Gonzalez had his license revoked for a total of two years.

Two other relatives who have been periodic visitors at the home have also had run-ins with the law, the weekly New Times newspaper here first reported. Jose Cid, 32, one of Lazaro and Delphin's nephews and a son of their sister here, Georgina Cid, went to jail last month to begin a 13-year sentence for grand theft, forgery and violating probation, according to the Miami-Dade Department of Corrections. His twin brother, Luis Cid, goes on trial on Feb. 18 on charges relating to a robbery last September in Little Havana.

More:
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/09/us/a-bumpy-path-for-miami-kin-of-cuban-boy.html

~ ~ ~

Yes, there's more:


A family portrait
By OW and Lissette Corsa on Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 12:00 am

. . .

At about 5:30 p.m. a dilapidated 1987 Honda Civic pulled up to the house, and a young man in his early 30s stepped out. Several people in the crowd recognized him and walked over to shake his hand. He was one of Elian's cousins, Luis Cid. His sister, Georgina Cid Cruz, recently has been representing the family before the media. Two weeks ago, for instance, she appeared on CNN's "Larry King Live."

The worldwide attention being paid to Elian's case (see A small boy lost in a political drama) has transformed nearly all his local relatives into celebrities. An older woman came forward and asked if she could have her photograph taken with Cid. He graciously complied. The woman quickly stood next to him and smiled broadly as her husband took a snapshot.

With any luck it will turn out to be a better picture than the unflattering mug shot taken of Luis Cid by Dade County jailers four months ago. According to police reports and court records, the 32-year-old was arrested by Miami police on Sept. 7 and charged with strong-arm robbery after he and an accomplice assaulted and robbed a tourist in Little Havana. The robbery took place about a half-mile from where Elian is now living. Cid is free on bond while awaiting trial next month.

This isn't Luis Cid's first encounter with law enforcement and the courts. In 1994 he was arrested on felony charges of carrying a concealed weapon and resisting arrest with violence. Also that year his ex-wife sought a permanent injunction against him alleging domestic violence, according to court records. In 1995 she sued him for child support. In 1998 he was arrested once more, this time on felony firearms and prowling charges.

Cid's twin brother also visits his uncle's Little Havana home to socialize with Elian. José Cid, like his brother, has had a history of encounters with police, a lengthy history. Between 1986 and 1990 he was arrested at least five times on felony charges including burglary, grand theft and robbery with force, according to court records. In 1994 he was arrested on charges of petit larceny. (The judicial outcome of the various criminal charges brought against the Cid brothers could not be confirmed by press time. Efforts to interview the brothers for this story also were unsuccessful.)

Men with multiple felony arrests casually mingling with Elian and his caretakers -- hardly the image the Miami relatives have sought to project to the world.

More:
https://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/a-family-portrait-2262897


- click on link for image -

https://media2.orlandoweekly.com/orlando/imager/a-family-portrait/u/slideshow/2281168/luiscidjpg

Luis Cid

Lookin' good!

[kskiska]

29. The sons had been in jail even back then

for robbing tourists.

[UTUSN]

27. He looks well fed & well laid

[Polybius]

34. He's a big defender of Cuba and their government

It's cool that he's popular, but I can't cheer him on.

[Marcus IM]

36. Do tell. What is wrong with him defending his country and system of gov't? n/t

[Polybius]

38. This is Democratic Underground, and it's awesome

I'm not a fan of Communist Underground.

[Marcus IM]

39. OK. Not that that is an answer.

Take care.

[Polybius]

40. The answer will only cause an argument

I don't want that to happen, so take care as well.

[malaise]

67. he US approach to the Cuban government is no different than

the BananaReTHUG reaction to the Slobfather's defeat. It was stolen if it wasn't done our way. They win whether at home or abroad or the system is a fraud and then they perpetuate instability and chaos until they get their way. Donald Trump and ReTHUGs playbook is US foreign policy to all who won't submit.
You cannot force the American way on the rest of the world without destroying your own democratic institutions in the process. US foreign policy is undemocratic. It's time to wake up.
Just calling it democracy doesn't make it democratic.

[brooklynite]

68. I've lived in a dictatorship with a rubber stamp legislature....

...I don't recommend it whether it's left- or right-wing.

A supposedly popular Government should have no fear of holding free and fair elections.

[malaise]

70. Tell that to your BananaReTHUG party

in the USA. You can start with that recent vote in Georgia.

[Marcus IM]

72. Cubans get to decide that. Not anyone else.

And, Cuba does have free and fair elections.
Is their system different than the US? Yes. It is a multilevel parliamentary system. In 1976, Cuba changed to a parliamentary democratic system along with a new constitution, by popular vote. No party selects any candidate for any slate of candidates.

In addition to their elections, there are accountability votes every 6 months, where office holders can be recalled by citizens initiative, votes, and a new election in 6 weeks if said office holder does not achieve 50%+1 of the vote.

I lived in Cuba. Have seen many election seasons w/my own eyes.

As to rubber stamp legislatures ... like Florida's legislature (and most red state legislatures)? Like the vote denying GOP in congress?

[brooklynite]

73. "No party selects any candidate for any slate of candidates. "

And conveniently, nobody stands in opposition to the Government.

[Marcus IM]

75. What does that mean "in opposition to the gov't"?

You mean that nobody who espouses overthrowing their gov't gets elected?

You mean that nobody who espouses US-style exploitive capitalism over their current system gets elected?

You mean that nobody who espouses privatization of their gov't gets elected?

I wonder why?

[brooklynite]

77. Some lovely straw men...

...I've hear this "you just don't understand their system" argument before.

Reality is that there are always responsible opposing viewpoints, even here in the US. You can't convince me that somehow every Cuban believes in the same governing philosophy.

[Marcus IM]

81. No one is trying to convince you of any such thing.

Talk about straw man argument. smh

Cuba has a very vibrant and diverse democracy. Only about 20% of the National Assembly are CP members.

Of course, you knew that. Right?

[brooklynite]

85. In North Korea, not every member is in the Workers Party....

...they allow "guest Parties" to have seats, and the guests vote blindy in favor of Kim Jong Un and his Government.

As for Cuba:

GUIDED
by the most advanced revolutionary, anti-imperialist, Cuban-Marxist, Latin American, and universal thought, in particular by the ideal and example of Martí and Fidel, as well as the social emancipation ideas of Marx, Engels, and Lenin;

https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Cuba_2019.pdf?lang=en

Can you provide an example of a non-Communist Party member who has used their position of authority to oppose the communist Government?

[Marcus IM]

89. Oswaldo Paya, former leader of the Cuban Christian Democratic Party, for one.

Cubans elect representatives. I don't get why you would think they would elect someone who opposes their gov't.

Do some oppose certain platforms and some goals of the majority in the Assembly? Of course.

Opening up some privatization was opposed by the CP membership, but they were outnumbered and outvoted. So, there is privatization of some aspects of their mixed economy.

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html
* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

[brooklynite]

92. "I don't get why you would think they would elect someone who opposes their gov't."

Pretty silly of us Democrats voting for candidates who opposed the Republican House leadership in 2006 and 2018.....

[Marcus IM]

95. Huh? Why would Dems vote for what they don't agree with.

Another straw man argument from you.

You ignorantly imagine that Cubans and their elected representatives vote in lock-step. Nope.

You know that. You're the "expert" on Cuba.

[EX500rider]

86. "Cuba has a very vibrant and diverse democracy." lol

Who just happened to have the same leader from 1959 to 2008. Also know as a one-party communist state.


Reporters Without Borders: 2016 Press Freedom Index, ranked 171 out of 180 countries.

Human Rights Watch states that "freedom of assembly is severely restricted in Cuba, and political dissidents are generally prohibited from meeting in large groups.

[Marcus IM]

91. Fidel Castro was their Head of State. Not the leader.

The leader of Cuba is the president of the National Assembly.

I know you know this too, but you like to spam Cuba threads with BS.


Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo
1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

[EX500rider]

113. Yes & Stalin wasn't the President of the Soviet Union either.

Nikolai Shvernik was. Stalin was Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars.
But we know who was in charge just like we do for Cuba.

[Marcus IM]

116. I'm sure your expertise on Soviet and Cuban political structures is vast.

I mean .. you've continuously presented cogent arguments.

[EX500rider]

117. Pointing out what HWR & Amnesty Int & ReportersWithoutBorders says..

...is something you can't refute, got it.

"It's a Miami ex-Cuban plot!" with zero proof isn't really the argument you think it is either

[brooklynite]

74. "Cubans get to decide that. Not anyone else."

Just like North Koreans "get to decide"?

[Marcus IM]

76. Nope.

Although I have never lived lived in N Korea, so, I'm not familiar with their system.

I lived in Cuba, so I am very familiar with Cuba's system.

How about you?

[malaise]

78. Your billionaires get to decide

How democratic

[brooklynite]

80. Joe Biden, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer are billionaires? Who knew?

[Marcus IM]

186. You are aware that communism is an economic system, like capitalism is an economic system

You seem to think that economic systems are political parties.

A common mistake in American discourse.

[EX500rider]

83. A one party police state? Would could be wrong with that? lol

Cuba is one of a few extant Marxist–Leninist one-party socialist states, in which the role of the vanguard Communist Party is enshrined in the Constitution. Cuba has an authoritarian regime where political opposition is not permitted. Censorship of information (including limits to Internet access) is extensive, and independent journalism is repressed in Cuba; Reporters Without Borders has characterized Cuba as one of the worst countries in the world for press freedom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba

[brooklynite]

87. No, no, no...

If you read through some of the responses here you'll understand that your perception of Cuba is biased due to your imperialist American background and capitalist indoctrination and the Cuban people all universally agree with whatever the Government advocates......

[Marcus IM]

93. Straw man arguments R you. n/t

[Marcus IM]

88. You have been disabused of this before. Yet you continue to repeat your false claim.

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html
* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

I know you know this as well. Because I've seen you attempt to spam Cuba threads with your doggerel many times in the past.

[EX500rider]

109. Again:

Who just happened to have the same leader from 1959 to 2008. Also know as a one-party communist state.


Reporters Without Borders: 2016 Press Freedom Index, ranked 171 out of 180 countries.

Human Rights Watch states that "freedom of assembly is severely restricted in Cuba, and political dissidents are generally prohibited from meeting in large groups.


Cuba is one of a few extant Marxist–Leninist one-party socialist states, in which the role of the vanguard Communist Party is enshrined in the Constitution. Cuba has an authoritarian regime where political opposition is not permitted. Censorship of information (including limits to Internet access) is extensive, and independent journalism is repressed in Cuba; Reporters Without Borders has characterized Cuba as one of the worst countries in the world for press freedom.

Am I going to believe Human Rights Watch & Reporters Without Borders or anonymous Cuban-Fan Boy/Girl? lol

[Marcus IM]

110. You know where they get their "data"? IRI and NED funded Cubanet.

Human Rights Watch & Reporters Without Borders do not have any reporters there. They rely and regurgitate the right wing anti Cuba Miami exile Cubanet propagandists with axes to grind.

Of course, you have been shown this in detail before, yet you continue to spam with the same lines, over and over.

You can believe for-profit Mellon Scaiffe funded Cubanet if you want to.

Cubanet receives $185,000 a month to produce "reports" on Cuba. Their agents in Cuba are phenomenally wealthy by Cuban standards. Just like the lying for-profit media here, there are motives for lying and obfuscating.

I believe my lying eyes and personal experience - with zero profit motive.

[EX500rider]

112. "Reporters Without Borders do not have any reporters there."

Indeed, a country without a free press would not let them in.

Any "proof" they get all their intel from ex-Cubans in Miami or is that just a feeling you have? lol

HWR is world respected
but perhaps you'd like Amnesty International's take instead: (let me guess, they are wrong too)

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/central-america-and-the-caribbean/cuba/report-cuba/


In the wake of historic protests in July, Cuban authorities imprisoned many hundreds of protesters, almost 700 of whom remained in prison at the end of the year. The authorities ramped up their machinery of control over freedom of expression and assembly with physical surveillance of human rights activists, artists and journalists, and by subjecting them to house arrest, arbitrary detention, violations of due process and, in some cases, ill-treatment, while also disrupting the internet. The economic situation continued to deteriorate and the US authorities again failed to lift the economic embargo.

[Marcus IM]

165. Reporters Without Borders receives funding from NED

Not a free press.

Reporters Without Borders received funding from NED

The strong suspicions that have surrounded the dubious and tendentious
activities of Reporters without Borders (RSF) have not been without merit.
For many years, various critics have denounced the largely political
propagandistic actions of the Parisian entity, particularly with regards to
Cuba and Venezuela. The RSF's positions against the governments of Havana
and Caracas coincide perfectly with the political and media war that
Washington carries out against the Cuban and Venezuelan revolutionaries.

Finally the truth has come to light. Mr. Robert Ménard, secretary general of
the RSF for twenty years, has confessed to receiving financing from the
National Endowment for Democracy (NED), an organization that depends on the
U.S. Department of State, whose principal role is to promote the agenda of
the White House for the entire world. Ménard was clear: ³We indeed receive
money from the NED.

https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2005/05/29/17447201.php

[Mosby]

111. The annual Democracy Index puts Cuba at 139th.

It scored a 0.0 in "electoral process and pluralism".

See for yourself:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=17713056

Even Egypt (military dictatorship) and Jordan (religious monarchy) scored higher.

[Marcus IM]

114. Well. An observation.

Cubans wanted universal education for their progeny. They worked for it, politically and structurally. And, they have it.
Americans also want universal ed for their progeny. They don't have it.

Cubans wanted a universal health care system for everyone. They worked hard for it, politically and structurally, and they have it.
Americans also want a universal health care system for everyone. They don't have it.

Cubans wanted affordable housing for all (Cuba has one of the lowest homelessness rates in the world). They worked for it and they have it.
Americans want affordable housing for all. They don't have it.

Cubans wanted sovereignty for their nation, not one controlled by banks. They have it.
Americans want sovereignty over banks. They don't have it.

Are we seeing a pattern here? Castro didn't achieve any of these things. The Cuban people did because they wanted them, and certainly did not do it at the point of a gun.

I really don't care about what Miamicubano "exile" run Cubanet reports (that's where the "facts and figures" the index is based on regarding Cuba). I care about the reality in Cuba, on the ground. Right now.

It's pretty sad the the US gov't imposes restrictions on who can travel to Cuba to see for themselves. Cubans are not travel banned by their gov't. Maybe you could read some about their experiences, from both tourists and educators who have been there to visit and study.

While Cuba is by no means a paradise, nor do all Cubans agree on the minutia of their gov't policies, the people are proud of their accomplishments that rival or better the "greatest nation on earth".

I'm sticking with my lying' eyes, and my personal experiences there.

All the best to you.
Cheers

[EX500rider]

118. Still zero proof from you that ALL human rights orgs somehow are hoodwinked by "Cubanet reports"

[Marcus IM]

119. it's like saying that you believe that Fox News was hoodwinked, rather than profit motives.

Your post reads like you believe that "hoodwinking" is a thing. How quaint.

Surely you've seen the behind the scenes discussions about ad revenue over facts there.

AI, FH, RSF, and Cubanet work just like that. Revenue first.

[EX500rider]

126. Except HRW and Amnesty Inter aren't Fox and are to be believed.

[EX500rider]

128. Profit motives?

HRW and AI and RWB are non-profit & don't survive on any type of advertising.

[Marcus IM]

136. They survive on IRI and NED money.

As well as several wealthy private entities.

Cubanet is a non-profit.
Funded by the aforementioned entities ... some with the name Diaz-Balart and Mas Canosa.
The staff started out driving Datsun B210's.
Now they're driving Mercedes, Range Rovers, and Maseratis.
They're wealthy now. Rollin' large. Like good republicans
Just as are their "reporters" in Cuba.
But, there's no motive to write bullshite, right? I mean ... if they reported that Cubans support their system and that the primary reason for their suffering is the US extra territorial sanctions on their economy that are making them poor, then do you think Cubanet would still get paid? Kinda like Fox Nooz.

[malaise]

160. Who controls that.

Asking for a friend

[Marcus IM]

162. The IRI, NED, Carnegie, Rockefeller and Mellon Scaiffe foundation are some major funders

All have interests in spreading capitalism over social benefit.

[malaise]

166. Yah think! 😀😀

😀

[Marcus IM]

167. LOL

Say it ain't so.

[ripcord]

96. He needed to go back

But they way they took him from the house was really bad

[Marcus IM]

99. That was staged. The Miami Herald photog said so later.

They called Donato to come to the house just for the prearranged "raid". It was a staged political photo ... Taken from the arms of the man who rescued Elian from the sea (even though it wasn't Donato Daryimple, it was actually Sam Ciancio who pulled the child from the water into his boat). Elian gave Sam his phone number in Cuba. Sam called and spoke with Miguel Gonzales to tell him that his kid had been rescued. Then, Dorris Meisner of the INS made the awful decision to hand the child over to the drunken uncle's home rather than follow the usual procedure ... which was to return minors to their parents.

[Paladin]

97. Glad to hear it. (nt)

[kskiska]

115. I distinctly remember Congresswoman Ilieana Ros-Lehtinen

crying on TV about how if Elian were to return to Cuba he wouldn't be allowed to have any milk, and would have to work in the sugar cane fields.

[Marcus IM]

120. Milk is in short supply in Cuba.

Hot Caribbean climates are not conducive to high milk production. Cuba imports most of the milk. The US has restrictions on shippers and suppliers making milk a commodity in short supply.

But rather than a capitalist rationing model - where those with the most money get all the milk - Cuba uses a model that directs milk and other important nutrients for the growing youth towards the children.

Understand that capitalism is in itself a rationing scheme.

[Catherine Vincent]

144. Damn I'm old.

I was right here on DU when the rescue of Elian took place late in the night. Or was it CNN discussion boards?

[Wednesdays]

148. I can't remember exactly when DU was founded

I think it's posted somewhere here that DU was formed as a response to the (s)election of year 2000. I know I was coming here by the summer of 2001.

The raid that freed Elian was on April 22, 2000.

[Celerity]

177. The DU domain was created December 5, 2000, the site was launced on January 20, 2001

https://whois.domaintools.com/democraticunderground.com

https://www.loc.gov/item/lcwaN0001907/

[Marcus IM]

152. Was before DU.

Was during the 2000 campaign. Al Gore was hedging on which side to take. A "let the courts decide" noncommittal.

Joe Lieberman came to South Florida to pander to the intransigent "exile" elements, giving anti-Cuba speeches to the multitude of RW violent extremist "exile" groups in Miami, like the CANF and Brigade 2506, including davening at CANF founder Jorge Mas Canosa's gravesite.

And that was before Lieberman switched to the John McCain/Sarah Palin bandwagon.

[Bucky]

181. LoL - I do the same thing

I remember distinctly sharing news on DU about how my office reacted to 9/11. I remember doing my usual number of explaining to fellow DUers how we shouldn't overreact to even a terrible terrorist attack to people in the days that followed...

Only it turns out I didn't join du until 2002. I was still just a lurker here in 2001. Human memory is crap. That's why you always have to be ready to back up what you're saying with documentation

[Catherine Vincent]

187. Yep,

After I typed my post I couldn't remember if it was DU. So it must have been CNN message forms. They had a good forum back then. It must have closed soon after and then I finally was able to find another forum comparable to CNN (DU). I lurked DU before I officially joined. Been here ever since.

[liberal_mama]

151. That was a very unfortunate situation. I'm glad to see Elian looks happy, and has a

family of his own.

[FakeNoose]

164. Screenshot with 2016 photo of Elian Gonzalez from OP link

[Judi Lynn]

176. Here's some necessary information most US Americans don't ever learn about Cuba.

The US has been trying to possess Cuba since the late 1800's, and has been damned determined to control it, and every damned person on the island all these long, long years.

Taking the time to invest even a tiny bit of reading on the subject could drench the subject in an entirely new light, and awaken people to the fact they have been lied to from the first time they ever heard of the place.

I decided to look up the "Breckenridge Memorandum" which was written on Christmas Eve, 1897 by the U.S. Undersecretary of War, J. C. Breckenridge and found a copy of it at this link, which would be worth your time to peruse:

The Breckenridge Memorandum
J.C. Breckenridge, U.S. Undersecretary of War in 1897, sent the following memo to the Commander of the U.S. Army, Lieutenant General Nelson A. Miles. The memo explains what is to be U.S. policy towards the Hawaiian islands, Puerto Rico and Cuba.


Department of War
Office of the Undersecretary
Washington D.C.

December 24, 1897

- snip -

The island of Cuba, a larger territory, has a greater population density than Puerto Rico, although it is unevenly distributed. This population is made up of whites, blacks, Asians and people who are a mixture of these races. The inhabitants are generally indolent and apathetic. As for their learning, they range from the most refined to the most vulgar and abject. Its people are indifferent to religion, and the majority are therefore immoral and simultaneously they have strong passions and are very sensual. Since they only possess a vague notion of what is right and wrong, the people tend to seek pleasure not through work, but through violence. As a logical consequence of this lack of morality, there is a great disregard for life.

It is obvious that the immediate annexation of these disturbing elements into our own federation in such large numbers would be sheer madness, so before we do that we must clean up the country, even if this means using the methods Divine Providence used on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

We must destroy everything within our cannons’ range of fire. We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army. The allied army must be constantly engaged in reconnaissance and vanguard actions so that the Cuban army is irreparably caught between two fronts and is forced to undertake dangerous and desperate measures.

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm

(You may recall the man to whom he sent the memo. was himself a fanatical "Indian fighter" for the U.S. Government, Gen. Nelson Miles. )

Take your time to grasp what extreme hatred and contempt they held for people of other cultures. Is that something to revere?

~ ~ ~

Looking for the complete Memorandum I was happy to discover this link I've never seen which is enormously useful:

Americans lack an understanding of Cuba
Jessica Byrd
February 11, 2015

United States, reflects its modern day policy to dominate, control and original plan to annex the Island

- snip -

On April 22nd, the U.S. imposed a blockade on the northern and southern coasts of Cuba. Spain declared war on April 24th, 1898. The war became known as the Spanish American War. In Cuba it is referred to as the US intervention in Cuba’s War of Independence. Suspiciously, three months later on August 12, 1898, Spain and the United States agreed to suspend hostilities. On December 10th, 1898 the two countries met in Paris, France to sign the Treaty of Paris, which ceded control of Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Philippines and Guam to the U.S. The Republic of Cuba was not invited to participate. The Treaty of Paris and the Teller Amendment called for sovereignty and independence for Cuba after the war ended. However, the following day the American flag was raised over Havana, a U.S. military government was installed, and modern day U.S.-Cuba relations were born.

The American government’s plans for US-Cuba relations is best revealed in a memo sent by Under Secretary of War J.C. Breckenridge to Lieutenant General Nelson A. Miles, Commander of the US Army, on 24 December, 1897. He describes the U.S. policy toward the Hawaiian Islands, Puerto Rico, and in relation to Cuba he states, “The inhabitants are generally indolent and apathetic. As for their learning, they range from the most refined to the most vulgar and abject. Its people are indifferent to religion, and the majority are therefore immoral and simultaneously they have strong passions and are very sensual. Since they only possess a vague notion of what is right and wrong, the people tend to seek pleasure not through work, but through violence. As a logical consequence of this lack of morality, there is a great disregard for life.”

“It is obvious that the immediate annexation of these disturbing elements into our own federation in such large numbers would be sheer madness, so before we do that we must clean up the country, even if this means using the methods Divine Providence used on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. We must destroy everything within our cannons’ range of fire. We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army. The allied army must be constantly engaged in reconnaissance and vanguard actions so that the Cuban army is irreparably caught between two fronts and is forced to undertake dangerous and desperate measures.”
The people of Cuba have hungered and suffered enough. The U.S. policy of isolation to impose hunger, famine and disease created the world’s largest prison, and violates the most basic tenants of human rights. Let the Cuban people go.

More:
https://michiganchronicle.com/2015/02/11/americans-lack-an-understanding-of-cuba/

[malaise]

178. Great post

Thanks Judi Lynn

[Marcus IM]

180. A fine post. Few know the near constant attack Cuba has been under. Yet, they still stand tall.

Producing stats of social indices that rival or best some of the leading nations.

The US's brazen administrative act called The Monroe Doctrine self-appointed America as the nation that had supreme control over the Latin Americas and the Caribbean.

Cuba had a dysfunctional bicameral system - modeled on the US system - forced upon them by Teddy Roosevelt.

In 1975 Cubans voted to re-form their system overwhelmingly in an open vote.

In 1976 Cuba re-formed its system to a multilevel Parliamentary system, like most of the rest of the democratic world. It has been evolving every election cycle.

The International Parliamentary Association meets in Havana as one of the rotating host cities.

Elian is running for office in a Municipal Assembly which is like a city or township commission in the US.

[Bucky]

179. No one was under the delusion he was NOT being sent back to a totalitarian country

Communists are gonna use whatever propaganda tools they have available. The point of being an ethical country is that you don't kidnap a child from their sole surviving parent just because he landed in America after going through that horrible trauma.

Child kidnapping, as demonstrated by the international court that just indicted Vladimir Putin, is always wrong.

[Marcus IM]

182. It was a political ploy for power among the "exile" community.

Manny Diaz - the lead lawyer for the CANF and abductors - won the Mayoral election in Miami the next election after Elian was returned home.

His successful platform was all about his noble fight against the "tyrants" Bill Clinton and Janet Reno.

He went on to become Florida Democratic Party Chairman afterward.

That's when Florida's Blue started turning Red.

Pandering the the extremist righwingnut exiles in S Florida is a fool's errand.

[Bucky]

183. Haha, poor Elian...

His fate is to bounce from one totalitarian red state to another

[Marcus IM]

184. He's running to be elected as a totalitarian?

Makes little sense.

MAGAts might do that. Not Cubans.

[Marcus IM]

185. Paul Weyrich on American democracy.

Paul Weyrich on American democracy.
George Washington told us not to have political parties!

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