With all this Fracking going on - Why no LNG Cars

[FreakinDJ]

Seems the likely evolution from surging cheap plentiful Natural Gas supplies. Would seem to make the claim "Energy Independence" viable.

[SidDithers]

1. I'm going to guess that the possibility of a very large KA-BOOOOM!!...

when LNG cars crash into each other might have something to do with it.

Though, there are plenty of propane-powered vehicles on the road, so I might be wrong.

Sid

[HopeHoops]

3. Propane is far safer than LNG, but both are safer than gasoline.

[bhikkhu]

8. Based on what?

It takes a lot of work to vaporize gasoline before it becomes explosive. Otherwise, it burns pretty slowly. If you've ever lit a puddle of gas, you know what I mean - its nothing to get excited about.

On the other hand, NG is explosive by nature, and LNG is highly cooled and/or compressed NG. Combine explosive gas and confined spaces, and you don't get "safer".

[HopeHoops]

21. No, but you're more likely to end up with a slick and that WILL ignite.

Fortunately all three fuels are stored in tanks that are unlikely to rupture and we've got inertia shut-off valves on them as well. Getting popped in the rear end isn't nearly as dangerous as it used to be (think early 70's Ford Pinto).

[sharp_stick]

2. Back in Calgary Alberta Canada

there were lots of LNG cars. Probably not that many around in other places just because of the overall lack of gas and expensive storage.

Also in Alberta I never once came across a place that wasn't heated by gas, I don't even think there's a fuel oil company in the city.

[laundry_queen]

20. yeah, it is more common here

to see natural gas and propane fueled trucks and cars. And I don't know of anyone here who doesn't have natural gas for heating home and water. Right now it's so much cheaper than electricity. I stopped using my space heaters and cranked up my natural gas furnace b/c the space heaters were making my electricity bill be more than triple my gas bill. So stupid.

[EOTE]

4. There are plenty of CNG and flex-fuel vehicles out there.

They've been available for quite some time. I think the biggest problem is that the energy output per liter is a good deal less than gasoline and it's therefore more expensive overall.

[Yo_Mama]

7. Also there isn't the infrastructure.

It's hard to impossible to find a CNG filling station in most places.

[FreakinDJ]

9. Unless you install 1 at home

Most of the CNG cars are marketed with a "Home Compressor" so you fill up at home. Great for folks who need some thing to drve around town and commute to work

Cost start at $1500 to $3000 for the home filling station. Fuel cost can run between $0.85 to $2.00 per gallon of CNG

[randr]

5. Fracking is only here because the Bush team gave the drillers a pass

on all safeguards we had in place. Now they see the end in site and are furiously trying to get their hands on every tract of public land possible.
The idea of "energy independence" went out the door when we became a net exporter of energy.
We need to impose a surcharge on every BTU that leaves our country.

[Yo_Mama]

6. We aren't a net exporter of energy!

Where did you get that idea?

We import about 22% of all primary energy we consume.
Graph 1 at this link:
http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/perspectives.cfm

To the right, the first one under total energy.

We shifted to being a net exporter of refined petroleum products this year, but we still imported a lot of the crude we refined, so we are net petroleum importers. Almost all of our primary energy deficit is created by petroleum imports.

[FreakinDJ]

10. Sure - when you factor in Natural Gas

Crude Oil in vs: Crude Oil/Petroleum products out - we are a net exporter

You forget most Alaskan crude goes to Asia

[leftyohiolib]

19. the us is exporting lots and lots of gasoline

that probably hasnt been added to a graph that ends at 2010

[randr]

22. Read it and weep

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203441704577068670488306242.html

[Hell Hath No Fury]

11. San Francisco is crawling with them --

Most of our City government vehicles are LNG, as are many taxis, tour buses, etc.

[FreakinDJ]

12. East Bay too - and they fly through the Toll Both - Free

kind of envious here

[AngryAmish]

13. T Boone Pickens (oil and gas man) wants to force convert all eighteen-wheelers to LNG

There are benefits to that plan. It allows a smaller network of suppliers. It would decrease carbon emissions and reduce reliance on the middle east. There are downsides also.

[RoccoR5955]

15. The biggest upside...

For Pickens, is the money it puts in his pocket. That's all he cares about. Just another greedy billionaire.

[arcane1]

14. They would rather export it for 5 times the price

"Energy Independence" is only for American companies, not consumers

[FreakinDJ]

17. DING DING DING - We have a Winner Folks

THAT is why they are not marketing CNG cars - Everyone in Detroit knows exporting LNG is going to drive up the price

[TlalocW]

16. It depends where you are

I have a CNG van that I use for my side business. I just moved to KC from Tulsa (van is still there). Tulsa has a lot of privately-owned CNG vehicles, and a lot of the school buses and city vehicles run on CNG. I don't know about KC yet except to say there is currently only one public CNG pump, and about 10 privately-owned pumps. An article in the KC Star says that there are going to be more public ones installed.

TlalocW

[FreeJoe]

18. They are there are growing

There are LNG and CNG vehicles on the road. I have a friend with a CNG car. They have advantages and disadvantages.

The biggest disadvantages are:
1) Price - They cost a lot more than gasoline or diesel cars. I think the Honda Civic CNG is about $5,000 more than a gas one.
2) Few Choices - I think the Honda Civic CNG is the only natural gas powered car from a major manufacturer.
3) Short range - LNG and CNG have lower energy density that gas or diesel, so you can't drive as far.
4) Fewer refilling stations - There are very few refilling stations.

The biggest advantages are:
1) Lower fuel costs - 6 MCF of natural gas has about as much energy as one barrel of oil. At current prices ($2.50/MCF and $100/bbl), that makes natural gas about 1/6 the price of oil as a source of energy.
2) Lower emissions - The Civic CNG has lower emissions per mile than even the best hybrids. Only the plug-in electrics are better.
3) Fuel at home - You can plug in your car to your home natural gas line and refuel it. It takes extra equipment (another couple of thousand dollars) and it is slow (most people use it for overnight refueling).

So with the extra cost and limitations, it isn't surprising that people are slow to adopt it. The huge (and growing) price difference between fuels is getting more and more people interested. It works best for fleets (mail trucks, buses, etc) where your range is relatively limited and you can afford your own refueling infrastructure. Some people with a need for a dedicate commuter car are also adopting them, although the only cases I know of are people who's companies have subsidized the purchase.

[TransitJohn]

23. You know, I looked in to that.

Turns out the conversion is extremely expensive, like, doubling the cost of a vehicle expensive, and the EPA has only approved 3 or 4 conversions.