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RandySF

(58,780 posts)
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 01:08 PM Jan 2012

WSJ: Romney DID avoid taxes with offshore investments.

Last edited Thu Jan 19, 2012, 03:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Mitt Romney’s campaign has attacked an ABC News report on the candidate’s offshore investments, saying his holdings in the Cayman Islands and elsewhere have no effect on the amount he pays in U.S. taxes.

But the campaign’s assertions may be wrong or misleading. Tax experts said some of the offshore holdings are likely intended to help Mr. Romney avoid paying an obscure but hefty tax of as much as 35% on some of those investments, held in a tax-deferred retirement account.

As The Wall Street Journal reported in Thursday’s paper, many of Mr. Romney’s offshore investments are held through his individual retirement account, which has grown to between $20.7 million and $101.6 million. IRAs are tax-deferred accounts, in which earnings accrue tax-free until the money is withdrawn during retirement.

Mr. Romney’s IRA has grown so large, it appears, due to investments in various vehicles managed by Bain Capital, the investment fund he helped found in 1984. His latest financial disclosure report, filed in August, shows that many of the IRAs assets are in Bain-affiliated entities located offshore, including one in the Cayman Islands that the report listed as having a value of between $5 million and $25 million.


http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/01/19/romney-iras-offshore-investments-helping-his-tax-bill/

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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WSJ: Romney DID avoid taxes with offshore investments. (Original Post) RandySF Jan 2012 OP
Pfft. The Wall Street Journal is a notorious left-wing rag. Skinner Jan 2012 #1
LOL Hubert Flottz Jan 2012 #14
margin of error in that account is 90 million $. I want one. roguevalley Jan 2012 #20
DUzey Motown_Johnny Jan 2012 #21
Which suggests the questions gratuitous Jan 2012 #2
"Why isn't his income re-invested in this country?" KansDem Jan 2012 #3
Trickle on Down to the Cayman Islands get the red out Jan 2012 #4
Yep, enough of the trickle down BS... it's time for Bubble Up. (nt) redqueen Jan 2012 #12
Great question -- I hope someone asks him that at a debate...n/t whathehell Jan 2012 #31
Excellent point...nt/ whathehell Jan 2012 #30
But but ...it's all legal! golfguru Jan 2012 #5
Why would anyone say that this is legal? AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #6
Over $100 million in his IRA riverwalker Jan 2012 #7
fact check golfguru Jan 2012 #9
"Retirees are doing 2 to 3 times better" compared to what? subterranean Jan 2012 #11
Compared to the "other" option... golfguru Jan 2012 #32
Links please... avaistheone1 Jan 2012 #16
google.com golfguru Jan 2012 #33
Please provide links and data to support this assertions. yardwork Jan 2012 #23
I thought the subject was social security golfguru Jan 2012 #34
Ah no. We can't look at social security in isolation. The entire safety net is the issue. yardwork Jan 2012 #36
FACT CHECK: Closer look at Cain's retirement model Viva Jan 2012 #27
I would have an orgasm over 9% returns golfguru Jan 2012 #35
another fact check Progressive dog Jan 2012 #28
What's really weird is that Republicans think he's over-regulated. Scuba Jan 2012 #8
Godfather Rove Iliyah Jan 2012 #10
If you are dodging your tax obligation then you do not support the troops... Hubert Flottz Jan 2012 #13
The Romney offshore money scandal has legs. CNN reports he is unusually tight-lipped today. nt Cognitive_Resonance Jan 2012 #15
Of course he did. Mr. 1% has no clothes. AtomicKitten Jan 2012 #17
Correction: .0001% Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2012 #22
If you want to disprove some of these claims, Mr. Romney, release your taxes. WI_DEM Jan 2012 #18
I want to know why he uses the Cayman Islands for his offshore investments? LiberalFighter Jan 2012 #19
Romney can't deflect this story with a "class warfare" defense. pa28 Jan 2012 #24
Some right wing jackass was on CNN this morning louis-t Jan 2012 #25
Question has been deleted by yahoo " OFFSHORING PROFIT GAIN FROM DOWNSIZING AMERICA, PATRIOTIC?" SleeplessinSoCal Jan 2012 #26
Romney is toast already .... whether he wins the nomination or not. n/t cosmicone Jan 2012 #29

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
2. Which suggests the questions
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 01:23 PM
Jan 2012

How many jobs is Mitt Romney creating with all this wealth? How many businesses is he starting up? Why isn't the United States a good enough investment for his wealth? What can he do with the money he's squirreled away offshore that he can't do without it? Why isn't his income re-invested in this country?

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
3. "Why isn't his income re-invested in this country?"
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 01:34 PM
Jan 2012

That's the Great Lie of the last 30 years--"Trickle Down."

Folks like Mitt got their tax cuts ostensibly to "reinvest" in the USA. They didn't do it! They didn't uphold their part of the bargain!

Let's cut the crap...it's time to get rid of "Trickle Down" and go back to pre-Reagan tax rates!

Oh, and get rid of the Bush tax cuts, too!

 

golfguru

(4,987 posts)
5. But but ...it's all legal!
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 01:41 PM
Jan 2012

Our tax laws and tax system is all screwed up in favor of the rich and powerful.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
6. Why would anyone say that this is legal?
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 01:47 PM
Jan 2012

Are they experts in tax law?

Have they audited Rmoney's books and records?

Do they just want to believe that whatever the super-rich want to do is legal?

riverwalker

(8,694 posts)
7. Over $100 million in his IRA
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 02:19 PM
Jan 2012

yet he wants to abolish Social Security and condemn millions to a cat food retirement.

 

golfguru

(4,987 posts)
9. fact check
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 02:23 PM
Jan 2012

Chile has essentially that system of retirement in place for decades, and retirees are doing 2 to 3 times better.

There are also isolated cities/counties in US using a mix of private retirement options and doing similarly well.

I never discount actual history over theory and prognostications.

 

golfguru

(4,987 posts)
32. Compared to the "other" option...
Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:04 PM
Jan 2012

government guaranteed pension equivalent of our social security.
In Chile they can choose either system.

yardwork

(61,599 posts)
23. Please provide links and data to support this assertions.
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:19 PM
Jan 2012

Also, Chile is not the U.S. How is health care provided in Chile? Retirement benefits? Prescriptions and pension plans? What's the safety net for the elderly like in Chile vs. the one in the U.S. that is heavily dependent on social security income?

 

golfguru

(4,987 posts)
34. I thought the subject was social security
Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:06 PM
Jan 2012

other safety nets are another issue.
Lets compare apples with apples first.

Viva

(39 posts)
27. FACT CHECK: Closer look at Cain's retirement model
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 08:53 PM
Jan 2012
http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-closer-look-cains-retirement-model-172348908.html

One way that surging GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain has distinguished himself from his rivals is by calling for an alternative to Social Security — a private retirement plan modeled on one instituted a generation ago in Chile.
"Chile — they had the same problem nearly 30 years ago," Cain said last month at a forum in Florida, one of several occasions where he's touted his proposal. "They went to an optional, personal retirement account approach, and they now have individual retirement accounts for their workers."
But there's nothing optional about Chile's system. It requires that all workers contribute 10 percent of their salaries to private pension plans, plus other fees for insurance. These private funds have grown by an average of 9 percent annually after inflation since 1981, creating wealth that has boosted Chile's economy.
Still, many Chileans are unhappy over the funds' commissions and fees, and frustrated that their pensions aren't bigger. Polls have found that if given the choice, most Chileans would rather decide for themselves how to invest for their retirement.
A look at Cain's claims and how they compare with the facts:
___
CAIN: "I believe in the Chilean model, where you give a personal retirement account option so we can move this aside from an entitlement society to an empowerment society. Chile had a broken system the way we did 30 years ago. A worker was paying 28 cents on a dollar into a broken system. They finally awakened and put in a system where the younger workers could — could have a choice — novel idea. Give them a choice with an account with their name on it and over time we would eliminate the current broken system that we have." — GOP debate on Sept. 7 at the Reagan Library in California.
THE FACTS: The U.S. Social Security system faces long-term problems as more baby boomers retire, leaving relatively fewer workers to pay into the system. The Social Security trust funds are projected to be exhausted by 2036 unless Congress enacts changes. Once the funds are exhausted, the system would collect only enough payroll taxes to pay about three-fourths of the benefits Americans have been promised.
Chile had a similar system that was eating up nearly a third of workers' incomes and going bankrupt before Gen. Augusto Pinochet's dictatorship created the private pensions in 1981. At the time, Chilean stocks were performing so badly that the military and police refused to go along. Many civilians also decided to stay with their government-run plans, but most switched.
Since then, all new employees have been required to contribute 10 percent of their first $33,360 in annual wages, choosing among five funds whose investments range from safe bonds to riskier stocks. Roughly half of Chile's 17 million people pay into the private system today and can earn full pensions at age 60 for women and 65 for men, compared with a U.S. retirement age that is rising to 67.
Unlike traditional pension plans or Social Security, these investment accounts are the private property of each Chilean. Upon retirement, they can take out whatever's left after taxes and spend it as they wish. Anything left over at their death can be inherited by their families.
Chilean companies aren't required to pay anything into the system, unlike U.S. employers, who must match each worker's 6.2 percent payroll tax. That makes the total Social Security tax 12.4 percent, applied to the first $106,800 of each employee's wages. (Workers' payroll taxes were cut to 4.2 percent for this year; they'll return to 6.2 percent on Jan. 1 unless extended as President Barack Obama has asked.)
Starting in 2002, Chileans were allowed to invest up to 10 percent more in pretax savings — besides the mandatory program — that could be withdrawn at any time with no penalties other than taxes. Those voluntary plans, used mostly by Chileans wealthy enough to be able put away up to 20 percent of their income, have boomed, creating an additional $5.7 billion investment pool.
Transparency is built in: Chileans can use ATM-style cards or go online at any time to make projections and changes, and the government tightly regulates the funds, reporting each month on their progress. Success has bred imitation; 30 other countries have adopted something similar.
So why are so many Chileans unhappy?
Many complain of commissions and fees that have added up to nearly 15 percent of their contributions, according to the International Association of Latin American Pension Fund Supervisors.
The system's regulators say people who start paying the legal limit every month at age 25 can retire on 70 percent of their working salary. But that's not common. The average payout is $351 a month, just 36 percent of the average working wage, said Gonzalo Cid Vega, a pensions expert with Chile's Center for National Studies of Alternative Development.
"We created a private system with good intentions, but when a person retires, they become poor," Cid said.
U.S. Social Security benefits aren't much better, despite adjusting for inflation and using a sliding scale so that low-wage workers get a higher share of their earnings than higher-wage workers do. American workers retiring this year after making an average of $41,000 annually over 35 years would initially get about 45 percent of their working wage; an $88,000-a-year worker would get about 30 percent. The average U.S. monthly benefit is about $1,180, just 28 percent of the median U.S. monthly household income of $4,159.
Fear of stock market volatility is a big barrier to switching from Social Security to private accounts. The Social Security trust funds are invested entirely in U.S. Treasury bonds, which offer relatively low returns but are considered among the safest investments in the world.
By comparison, Chile's funds have delivered strong returns, despite some nerve-racking swings over the years. In 2008 alone, 60 percent of the growth obtained since the funds began was wiped out. Before it was regained the next year, it was a particularly bad time to retire in Chile. Many are angry that the funds aren't required to share their profits and lessen the impact of such devastating downturns on pensioners.
Other changes, in 2009, forced Chile's self-employed to participate, made it harder for people to take early retirement and exhaust their pensions before death, created government subsidies to cover housewives and other informal workers, and provided tax breaks for employers who voluntarily augment the contributions of low-wage workers.
The changes mean Chile's system is hardly the private plan it was billed to be: Two-thirds of all pensioners now get some kind of government support, which both increases taxes and enables private companies to profit more from government revenues.
___
U.S. Social Security Administration analysis of Latin American pension reforms: https://www.socialsecurity.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v71n1/v71n1p35.html
___
Michael Warren, AP's Southern Cone bureau chief, reported and wrote this story from Buenos Aires. Follow him at http://twitter.com/mwarrenap. Stephen Ohlemacher and Calvin Woodward contributed from Washington.
 

golfguru

(4,987 posts)
35. I would have an orgasm over 9% returns
Sun Jan 22, 2012, 06:12 PM
Jan 2012

all the way back from 1981!

The return on my social security contributions is less than 2%.

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
28. another fact check
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 09:24 PM
Jan 2012

]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_in_Chile
Why are we discussing a pension system that doesn't cover many workers, pays to even fewer, and is still about 3/4 paid from general revenues?

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
10. Godfather Rove
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 02:47 PM
Jan 2012

has a remedy for this and future negatives about Mittens.

The gop has the corporate media and tons of money mainly from the "United Citizen" decision. They have placed their minions in pertinent governorships and legislators as well as congress, plus voter suppression laws.

Gop motto "if you can't fairly beat them, by all means lie, cheat and steal it"

Hubert Flottz

(37,726 posts)
13. If you are dodging your tax obligation then you do not support the troops...
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 03:30 PM
Jan 2012

or your country.

Why should anyone vote for an "American" who don't support America?

LiberalFighter

(50,895 posts)
19. I want to know why he uses the Cayman Islands for his offshore investments?
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 05:09 PM
Jan 2012

If the fact that there are no taxes on profits, capital gains, income or any withholding taxes to foreign investors is not the factor then why doesn't he transfer his account to a USA based financial institution?

I'm now thinking there is money laundering involved and possibly illegal transactions involving those on a black list.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
24. Romney can't deflect this story with a "class warfare" defense.
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:28 PM
Jan 2012

I hope Gringrich nails him on the tax issue tonight because it sure looked like a soft spot last time.

louis-t

(23,292 posts)
25. Some right wing jackass was on CNN this morning
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:44 PM
Jan 2012

making the "has no effect on his tax rate" argument. I screamed at the teevee "YOU'RE LYING!!!"

SleeplessinSoCal

(9,112 posts)
26. Question has been deleted by yahoo " OFFSHORING PROFIT GAIN FROM DOWNSIZING AMERICA, PATRIOTIC?"
Thu Jan 19, 2012, 06:58 PM
Jan 2012

IS OFFSHORING PROFIT GAIN FROM DOWNSIZING AMERICA, PATRIOTIC . You can find the question on a google search, but it has been deleted. Has internet censorship begun already?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120118104342AAFcl0Q

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