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SpartanDem

(4,533 posts)
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:13 PM Jan 2012

SOPA: A Bad Solution to a Very Real Problem

The Web protests that led to a collapse of support in the House and Senate for two ill-designed antipiracy bills are a cause for celebration. In their current forms, both the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) in the House and the Protect IP Act (PIPA) in the Senate are heavy-handed and indefensible, attempts to shut down a handful of rogue pirate sites by changing the open structure of the Internet. In allowing the Justice Department to force Internet service providers to block access to websites that “enable” pirated content, the proposed legislation would pose serious threats to free speech.

But even as we celebrate the declining congressional support for these bills, we shouldn’t forget that this isn’t simply a fight about the future of free speech; it’s also a battle about whether the financial interests of the new media will triumph over those of the old media. And, if they do, it’s not clear that the public interest will always be served. As the protest song that sprang up this week put it, “Our web means more than lawyers, lobbies, and lies, so speak up before the Internet dies.” There are lawyers and lobbies on both sides of the debate, however, and neither side is devoted to the promotion of creativity for its own sake.

Ultimately, it’s too simplistic to see the copyright wars as a battle between idealistic tech companies that want information to be free, and the greedy old media that wants to preserve a dying business model. Instead, as Robert Levine argues in his new book Free Ride: How Digital Parasites Are Destroying the Culture Business, and How the Culture Business Can Fight Back, the real battle is between two competing business models. On the one hand, there are the publishers, record companies, and movie companies that fund the content people want to watch and read. On the other, there are the tech companies, like Google and Facebook, that want to distribute content created with other people’s money and sell more ads as a result. By destroying the business model that makes it possible for AMC to invest in excellent shows like “Mad Men,” Levine argues, the tech companies will create a digital wasteland dominated by self-produced cat videos.

There’s much to be said for Levine’s analysis of the competing financial interests on both sides of the debate: The current system looks much better for the tech companies that distribute other people’s content than for the old media companies that fund it. And to the degree that it’s harder for artists and journalists to get paid for their work, the public may not benefit in the long run. What’s still unclear—and is important to figure out—is how great a role Internet piracy is playing in destroying the business model that used to allow old media companies to invest in authors, musicians, and movie producers, and support them over the course of a career.

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/99837/protest-pipa-sopa-blackout

48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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SOPA: A Bad Solution to a Very Real Problem (Original Post) SpartanDem Jan 2012 OP
Bullshit. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2012 #1
It is true. Most content has ended, cuz it's downloaded even before distribution. WingDinger Jan 2012 #3
As opposed to maxmizing Google's profits? SpartanDem Jan 2012 #4
Google's nothing more than TV guide. boppers Jan 2012 #27
Damned straight - TBF Jan 2012 #44
Thank you wryter2000 Jan 2012 #2
Once again I'll tell this story...... FredStembottom Jan 2012 #6
Precisely. cthulu2016 Jan 2012 #7
...and I read what you posted below me FredStembottom Jan 2012 #9
+1000 wryter2000 Jan 2012 #11
Ouch, wryter! FredStembottom Jan 2012 #15
Just 10 minutes ago, I found another pirate with one of my stories wryter2000 Jan 2012 #14
People will pay for "better than free." See iTunes n/t eridani Jan 2012 #17
...and this ties in with my other favorite idea on this subject. FredStembottom Jan 2012 #19
My idea wryter2000 Jan 2012 #21
Or fill them with viruses?????? FredStembottom Jan 2012 #22
As a musician with 8 CD's on the market... boppers Jan 2012 #30
Do you charge for the live shows? FredStembottom Jan 2012 #43
Past live "charges" to see the show: boppers Jan 2012 #46
Charity is good. FredStembottom Jan 2012 #47
Mobile's changing that kurt_cagle Jan 2012 #36
Good point. Excellent point! FredStembottom Jan 2012 #42
Author Mercedes Lackey disagrees with that eridani Jan 2012 #16
A lot of self-published authors put up things for free to get readers wryter2000 Jan 2012 #20
I know Mercedes Lackey ... kurt_cagle Jan 2012 #26
I can get virtually any author, any musician, through the internet if I want. boppers Jan 2012 #32
Yup kurt_cagle Jan 2012 #34
I saw a singer pull 10K off the net in one night. boppers Jan 2012 #45
As long as enough people pay, she probably doesn't care eridani Jan 2012 #41
You don't know plumbers who work for "free"? boppers Jan 2012 #29
Thank you for that post. begin_within Jan 2012 #40
Rec. Internet piracy will have a very bad effect on art cthulu2016 Jan 2012 #5
I wish I could rec a reply wryter2000 Jan 2012 #12
Mass marketing has killed art. hunter Jan 2012 #25
Good Analysis. However ... kurt_cagle Jan 2012 #33
"For Profit" killed art. boppers Jan 2012 #35
The goal was tolerable, the methods being proposed were not ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #8
+10000 jberryhill Jan 2012 #28
people want somebody else's stuff and then complain about any cost associated with their wanting msongs Jan 2012 #10
The blossoming of the Internet is as important than the founding of the U.S. Politicub Jan 2012 #13
They have been trying to control it since 1990. boppers Jan 2012 #37
Authors, artists, and musicians should consider the shareware concept. AdHocSolver Jan 2012 #18
For musicians, Bandcamp: boppers Jan 2012 #38
It was never about copyright. It's about maximizing profits. Initech Jan 2012 #23
You're absolutely right n/t OhioChick Jan 2012 #24
There's little argument that piracy is not a problem jberryhill Jan 2012 #31
Well, there is the argument that "piracy" doesn't exist... boppers Jan 2012 #39
Missing an important step there Spike89 Jan 2012 #48
 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
1. Bullshit.
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:16 PM
Jan 2012

There's nothing inherently more useful to society about Mad Men than "self-produced cat videos".

I'm with anonymous on this one. We're killing too many brain cells trying to figure out a way for Disney to maximize it's shareholder return.

 

WingDinger

(3,690 posts)
3. It is true. Most content has ended, cuz it's downloaded even before distribution.
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:29 PM
Jan 2012

What needs to happen, is to streamline the distribution, cutting out many leaches. The leaches dont want that. Then, it will be cheap enough, to get it to those that cannot afford the WIRED lifestyle. Hell, rethugs say that the poor cannot call themselves poor, if they own or rent, or borrow a refrigerator. Are they going to care if you are stuck watching Fox news thru a store window as your only entertainment? Or like those dumbass states where you cannot go anywhere, without a pocket FULL of change, or BILLS for tolls?

Further, the changes to copyrights, and patents, giving them to those that are first able to dot I's and cross T's, cuts out the REAL entrepreneurs. Thus homogenizing all our culture.

Our advertizement society is sick. Our least common denominator reality shows, are sick. Our isolated nuclear family, mobile society, is sick.

Fixing that, will take no less than a revolution. But, as always, the devil is in the details.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
27. Google's nothing more than TV guide.
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 01:49 AM
Jan 2012

Are there folks here old enough to remember that waste of paper?

Millions were made. (Those millions are now funding newt fucking anybody but his wife gingrich).

Eventually, people realized that they should stop throwing money at people who *didn't* make new things, they simply aggregated other people's things, or marketed other people's thing... there's whole industries of people who don't create anything, they leech off of the creations of others.

Google does quite a good job of it *today*...

Remember TV guide? Bought one lately?

TBF

(32,053 posts)
44. Damned straight -
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:24 PM
Jan 2012

here comes the "new and revised" version just like NDAA.

I can forgive a lot, I can understand "cleaning up" a lot after the GWB administration.

But NDAA (indefinite detention) and SOPA are wrong.

wryter2000

(46,039 posts)
2. Thank you
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 12:26 PM
Jan 2012

There's another whole level that isn't being discussed here...independent artists, writers, etc. who don't get the big bucks from either side of the equation. We work very hard for little reward (although now, with self-publishing, some authors are finally receiving more than a bone thrown to them from time to time). It's extremely disheartening to find someone on-line "sharing" with huge numbers of strangers. We all support sharing the stories you love with people close to you. That's how we find new readers. But when a writer finds that over 900 people have "shared" one of his/her stories, as I discovered lately, that means money the writer doesn't have to pay the power bill.

Content that takes time and effort and, yes skill and talent, shouldn't be any more "free" than people should have to work for free for their employer. No one would expect a plumber to work for free, but they expect musicians, writers, artists, to give away their creative efforts for free.

Of course, SOPA and PIPA aren't any kind of solution. I am not supporting those.

FredStembottom

(2,928 posts)
6. Once again I'll tell this story......
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 01:33 PM
Jan 2012

Back about 1992 or so a movement arose among musicians of all stripes to cut the lyin', cheatin' record (CD) companies out of the picture.
These were the companies that produced results like: Aerosmith in debt to their record company by $10,000 after their first LP went platinum.
It was the perfect microcosm of where all of America is now. You work your ass off. Produce inspired new ideas that sell like hot-cakes - and yet, receive none of the benefits due you. Those benefits having been scammed upward to the "ruling elites" of the record companies.

I believe it was Ani De Franco who made the breakthrough move to self-produce and self-release a major CD release - and the revolution was begun.

Here's what almost happened: Thanks to the Internet, for the first time in history, an artist could self-promote a CD that was produced with the latest in "home" technology for about 1% of the wasteful expenditures of a major label.

In addition, that artist - who might have gotten 1.4 cents from the sale of a 16 dollar CD if signed with the majors (and possibly nothing at all if a new artist) could sell that CD for 8 or 10 bucks and profit directly from those sales. Maybe pocketing 4-5 bucks.

Suddenly, the "music biz" was going to be profitable even for the littlest guy selling small niche-market CD's. The major acts were going to find real stability. Artists would retain copyright of all their own material, too! No more Michael Jackson Estate getting paid when your song gets played! And the record companies? About to wither away into pointlessness.

It. was. beautiful. This plan was surging ahead daily. Musicians were getting PAID. Music buyers were just starting to get CD's for far less than before - because the parasitic middle layer was going bye-bye.

BUT.... just as this was occurring, Napster appeared. And millions of people suddenly felt perfectly entitled to get the musician's product not just for a lower price - but for absolute, frikkin' nothing.

The revenue stream was killed. Utterly. No one was going to get paid at all for recorded music!

Musicians, about to enter a supportive, fair, inspiring world have now been plunged into the 7th level of Hell.

Thanks to "peer-to-peer sharing", music doesn't pay...... at all.

If there is a way to claw some of this back, I'm for it.


cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
7. Precisely.
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 01:41 PM
Jan 2012

A lot of people confuse information technology (good for small artists) with piracy (bad for small artists)

Ironically, piracy probably increases conglomerate $$$ market share while reducing the overall number of dollars.

FredStembottom

(2,928 posts)
9. ...and I read what you posted below me
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:10 PM
Jan 2012

...and found it very useful.

I usually see things in a musician's view only and you expand on that nicely.

Thanks!

wryter2000

(46,039 posts)
11. +1000
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:18 PM
Jan 2012

I only hope the same thing doesn't happen to authors now that we have ways of distributing our stories on the internet.

I honestly figured I was too small to lose a lot of money from "sharing" until I found the site where almost 1,000 copies of my story had been downloaded.

That said, the laws we have now are adequate to protect us. The problem is there's zero enforcement. Plus the fact that many of the sharing sites are overseas. At least, if we could educate consumers that "sharing" on a large scale is stealing, we might make some progress.

Again for anyone looking in on this conversation, this doesn't mean we don't want you to share with your brother, sister, best friend. That's good for all of us. Just, please don't put things up where thousands of people can download them.

wryter2000

(46,039 posts)
14. Just 10 minutes ago, I found another pirate with one of my stories
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 04:21 PM
Jan 2012

It's only been out for a month. There goes some money that could put gas in my car or food in my mouth. And get this...people have to pay money to the pirate for the privilege of stealing from me.

I hate these bastards.

FredStembottom

(2,928 posts)
19. ...and this ties in with my other favorite idea on this subject.
Sat Jan 21, 2012, 12:00 PM
Jan 2012

There should be reasonably priced services that plant "cuckoo's eggs" for artists.

Released a new CD? The service will concoct appropriately sized files that are supposedly your songs but are actually just dog farts (or whatever)*. These get flooded onto peer-to-peer sites in a systematic way. They "look" for all the world like your actual songs. This is all automated for finding sites as they change and then flooding, flooding, flooding.

People get sick of searching again and again for the real thing - and finally buy it from you instead.

*Probably the best idea would be to use the actual songs but laced with some kind of annoying distortion. Even just EQ-ing the fake songs so they sound tinny might be enough.

Flood the zone!

P.S. A site has an "administrator" that works to eliminate or fix the fake songs, s/he becomes a very obvious copyright infringer. Easily found. Easily served with cease and desist orders.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
30. As a musician with 8 CD's on the market...
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:00 AM
Jan 2012

We encourage sharing, and do not consider a recording to be our "product".

A recording is an artifact, an item that reflects work once done, but not an ongoing work. I do not expect to be paid, and re-paid, and re-paid, for work I did (quite literally) up to a decade ago.

The music, live, is the product. A recording? No. That would be like writing down the words of a poet, and expecting to make money off of it.


FredStembottom

(2,928 posts)
43. Do you charge for the live shows?
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:20 PM
Jan 2012

Then, you are wanting to paid, too. To make a living.

A recording is one of your live performances merely time-delayed. The members of your audience access it one at a time at their convenience. That's the only difference. They don't have to show up at a hall to pay you.

They also don't pay you for that one performance time and time again.

Just once. to be "let into the hall" (the CD or download) to hear the one performance you want to be paid for.

Don't give up on being paid! You are worth it!

P.S. Poets write their stuff down all the time. Always have. And always dream of being paid for the writings. It's just not a very popular art-form and never sells all that well. Though people like Garrison Keillor work mightily to change that!

boppers

(16,588 posts)
46. Past live "charges" to see the show:
Thu Jan 26, 2012, 06:39 AM
Jan 2012

A fern.
A can of food.
5-65 dollars.
A toy for a young child.

My fave has to be the fern, but a group my band (when I was with them) once worked with has turned into a bonafide social charity.

http://www.manymouths.org/

kurt_cagle

(534 posts)
36. Mobile's changing that
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:38 AM
Jan 2012

I've noticed that people are far more willing to pay for content downloads to their mobile devices than they are to a laptop. Part of it is ease of transaction - usually just the click of a button and the automated debiting of an account, but a part of it too is that the transaction costs involved are lower than the cost to the user of locating the content online for free, and the habituation of the user to paying for services on the phone or tablet that they wouldn't on a PC.

FredStembottom

(2,928 posts)
42. Good point. Excellent point!
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:09 PM
Jan 2012

I've noticed that, too. But hadn't thought it through like you have.

That's certainly a step in the right direction!

eridani

(51,907 posts)
16. Author Mercedes Lackey disagrees with that
Sat Jan 21, 2012, 02:16 AM
Jan 2012
http://www.janisian.com/reading/internet.php

Or take author Mercedes Lackey, who occupies entire shelves in my local bookstore and library. As she says herself: "For the past ten years, my three 'Arrows' books, which were published by DAW about 15 years ago, have been generating a nice, steady royalty check per pay-period each. A reasonable amount, for fifteen-year-old books. However... I just got the first half of my DAW royalties... and suddenly, out of nowhere, each Arrows book has paid me three times the normal amount!.... And because those books have never been out of print, and have always been promoted along with the rest of the backlist, the only significant change during that pay-period was something that happened over at Baen, one of my other publishers. That was when I had my co-author Eric Flint put the first of my Baen books on the Baen Free Library site. Because I have significantly more books with DAW than with Baen, the increases showed up at DAW first. There's an increase in all of the books on that statement, actually, and what it looks like is what I'd expect to happen if a steady line of people who'd never read my stuff encountered it on the Free Library - a certain percentage of them liked it, and started to work through my backlist, beginning with the earliest books published. The really interesting thing is, of course, that these aren't Baen books, they're DAW---another publisher---so it's 'name loyalty' rather than 'brand loyalty.' I'll tell you what, I'm sold. Free works."

wryter2000

(46,039 posts)
20. A lot of self-published authors put up things for free to get readers
Tue Jan 24, 2012, 05:14 PM
Jan 2012

That was her decision. Ask her what she thinks of people who steal her stories when she hasn't made them free.

kurt_cagle

(534 posts)
26. I know Mercedes Lackey ...
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 01:40 AM
Jan 2012

... and a number of other writers in the SF/Fantasy genre. This is a topic that comes up a great deal at conventions and writer workshops as well as Green Room conversations. (I'm a writer as well, though primarily in the computer field).

The eBook revolution that is going on right now is actually changing the dynamics of the industry, though its taken the emergence of e-readers and tablets with dedicated wireless access and companies like Amazon, Apple and Google to make it happen. If you're willing to hunt, you can get books by many of your favorite authors for free through peer networks and the like, but what's changed is that the convenience factor for loading books directly to your device from paid networks has finally outweighed the cost differential for paying for the content - and the eReaders that are coming out now are coming down in price to a level where they also become cost competitive. With the proper tools, you can do all of the production processes for your books directly, and can market it through Amazon, Apple, Google or even through smaller publishers such as Ellora's Cave.

So how does piracy fit into that? Pirate consumers are marginal customers - the chances are fair to good that they probably would not have purchased the book through normal channels. However, they are disseminators. If they like the book, it will get distributed out to their network. This means that people who would not normally read my books are now reading my books, and it means that when a new book comes out, more of them MIGHT become customers.

The same principle works here as works for libraries. Publishers hate libraries, because libraries mean that dozens or hundreds of people may very well end reading the one or two versions of a book that they publish. Authors love them, because there are that many more potential new readers. It also gives a chance for readers to sample a writer before committing to them. Typically readers buy authors, not stories, which means that once you've written several books the likelihood of people buying you after sampling one or two through illicit means goes up dramatically.

That's why, when looking at acts like SOPA, PIPA or ACTA, the first question you have to ask is whether it benefits the content creators (the authors, writers, programmers, et alia) or the content distributors (publishers, traditional distributors and studios). Most of these bills are not truly intended to protect creator rights but distributor rights, and indeed a big trend in the industry is to push for more work-to-hire arrangements that automatically transfer any such creative rights to the distributor ab initio.

Now, I have worked with publishers for most of my fifteen books in print, but when I publish my novel this spring, it will almost certainly be under my own imprint as an e-book or print-on-demand. After I get my third novel out, probably by 2014 or so, then I MIGHT look for a publisher for subsequent works, but it makes far more sense for me to control the production of my own work out of the gate. And if the book gets pirated, its still cheaper than marketing.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
32. I can get virtually any author, any musician, through the internet if I want.
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:10 AM
Jan 2012

Almost any work by them.

It's still *easier* to copy/steal/share whatever. (I am a bit of a geek).

However, you nailed it on the head WRT creators/distributors.

I will pay intentionally large sums to an artist to get a "legal" copy of something I already have, because the money goes to the artist.

It's not about the artifact, it's about patronage. It's about paying artists to create, and not paying absurd amounts for perfect, or near-perfect, duplicates of their creation.

"Da Vinci sues 800 websites, and shuts them down for US visitors, for hosting images of Mona Lisa, without paying him a fee for each view"....

kurt_cagle

(534 posts)
34. Yup
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:32 AM
Jan 2012

We have a pretty decent-sized library at our house - maybe 3000-4000 books all told. I also have a couple of eReaders of various sorts, as well as all of my family having laptops. I do read eBooks (especially of the technical book sort), and my daughter uses an eBook reader for her school books in college, and I've become pretty addicted to reading SF novels in eBook form. More often than not, though, I'll buy an eBook version of a book, then if it looks like something I'm likely to want to keep, I'll buy it in hardback. Again, I could get it for free if I wanted to spend the time doing so, but time for me is generally at a premium. In that sense, I am helping support the artist.

Neo-patronage actually works pretty well. The difference is that you don't have just one patron, but a dedicated audience. Of course for the publishers this is the worst of all possible worlds, because they have access to neither talent nor audience, which means after a while the quality of their offerings decline as their stable dwindles. It's true in music as well. It's not perfect, there are still gatekeepers (Amazon, Apple, et al) but their threshold for entry has to remain relatively low or competitors will emerge.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
45. I saw a singer pull 10K off the net in one night.
Thu Jan 26, 2012, 06:16 AM
Jan 2012

Nobody knew she needed cash.

So she tweeted.

She sold stuff, and made bank.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
41. As long as enough people pay, she probably doesn't care
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 08:10 AM
Jan 2012

How do people steal stories that aren't posted online? Simple if you are in a foreign country. Just retypset, or maybe translate too, print up the copies and sell them. This crap has been going on for a long time without the internet, and has no impact whatsoever on purported losses from downloading.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
29. You don't know plumbers who work for "free"?
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 01:54 AM
Jan 2012

Part of the social compact is that the plumber who does free work for you gets to read your novel first, the sheet-metal worker gets into your live musical shows for free, the electrician gets access to a password protected area on your website, etc.

"We work very hard for little reward"

Yeah, so does everybody. The days of rockstars are gone, be they rockstar writers, painters, musicians, etc.

 

begin_within

(21,551 posts)
40. Thank you for that post.
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:58 AM
Jan 2012

I'm also one of the "little guys" who writes and produces material and sells it on my own. Copyright law is what protects me. Just like the "big guys" I've been ripped off, by people posting my stuff on Youtube (without my knowledge or permission) and even copying stuff from my web site to their web sites. It's often difficult to contact or even find the perpetrators. The result is lost sales for me, and at my income level every sale means a lot. I'm extremely disappointed in DUers and their attitudes towards copyright law. They think the whole issue is about big, faceless, greedy corporations trying to protect their profits. DUers have totally forgotten about the "little guy" who also receives protection through copyright laws. I'm very disappointed and dismayed in DUers over this, to the point that I don't trust DUers any more and visit this site much less often than I used to. Thank you for your post.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
5. Rec. Internet piracy will have a very bad effect on art
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 01:23 PM
Jan 2012

Internet piracy is a classic first-generation problem... kind of like when Europeans landed in North America and saw all the free trees available to be cut down.

It was awesome to be able to get a generation's worth of media products for free. I was there. It was fun.

It does not follow, however, that the next generation of material will be as rich.

Here's one small example. Back in the day a movie might open in a few smaller cities and if people liked it it would expand. Some major hits of the 1930s-1960s took a year to roll from one theatre to national release. When a movie showed up in your town there was a good chance it had been selected by human beings as being a movie they liked.

Today that approach is only taken with art films. All major studio product is released everywhere in the world the same week with immense global ad budgets because they have to maximize quick profit before the product begins to be come de facto public domain. Movies that nobody likes open on 1500 screens. And mainstream movies that are perceived as not being 1500-screen viable (and not worth the investment of national or global advertising) are not released at all.

The average movie on a theatre screen is worse, and will continue to get worse. Children's movies dominate becausee they are the safest mass-releases.

Art can never be separated from money, any more than raising children can be separated from money. Practical economics shapes every bit of society.

Note that red herring of home pay-per-view -- I can watch many more current films than I ever could in the old days. That is true. It is, however, not due to piracy. Today a musician can record and mix a pretty darn professional album herself, but that is due to technlogy, not due to piracy.

The small artist would do better in a world without piracy. For instance, if I was a self-promoting individual musician I'd had the option of making my music free to try to gain a following. That option means nothing if major label material is also de facto free. Same for an independent film-maker.

Katy Perry's last album will pass THRILLER for most #1 hits on an album. A high percentage of all hollywood income is concentrated in a few pre-packaged block-busters. (Transformers 2? Really?)

Conglomeration around narrow profit centers that can be defended.

There is a logical flaw in conflating technology and piracy: It is easier to self promote today. Piracy is easier today. Hence piracy aides self-promotion.

It doesn't. Without piracy the small artist would be even better able to benefit from information technology.


Another Example: Investment in major software is conglomerated in companies with a software security infrastructure. There are a hundred freeware and shareware image manipulation programs but only one photoshop. The shareware model cannot support another photoshop because major development is very expensive and can only be compensated within the framework of an adobe or microsoft or lotus who have a whole corporate division dedicated to getting the money for the software with minimal leakage.

When the biggest "fight-the-power" non-Microsoft browsers are from Abode and Google I am not sure where the decorporatization is. Yes, you can get a wiki-browser and run Linux and all of that. But that will never be dominant. I use OS-Office because it is free. It's great. But it is great because it is free. And free is not a sustainable business model. OS_Ofice is a knock-off of MS Office. If it was something radically new office suite it couldn't be free unless it was developed charitable millionaires and, again, tha is not a sustainable model.

Piracy does not benefit small developers just because it hurts large developers.

Piracy drives centralization and corporatization. (In the same way brigandage leads to castles.)

The particulars of SOPA/PIPA are a serious problem, I do not support the bills. But online piracy does not improve products or art.

(It does other things. It makes people more knoweldgable about music. It allows people to learn and work with software they cannot afford. There are many short-term goods and probably a few long term goods.)

hunter

(38,311 posts)
25. Mass marketing has killed art.
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 01:10 AM
Jan 2012

Dead. Stick a fork in it.

For every mass marketed "successful" artist there are hundreds if not thousands of greater artists who have to keep their day jobs.

Humans make art. A certain number of humans make great art, more than any market could ever support. Most of these great artists do other things to pay the bills. The "scarcity" that allows mass media art to profit is entirely artificial, just like the scarcity of diamonds is artificial. The industry picks a few artists to push and actively suppresses notice of the rest.

That's just the way it is.

I don't advocate piracy, i find it abhorrent, but frankly if the monster mass media art industry dies, I won't cry, and its loss will probably improve the overall quality of art in general.

My house is full of art from artists you never heard of, lots of it purchased directly from the artists themselves. You'll probably never hear of them because the bigger industry already has a great surplus of artists willing to chase the carrot on the string in the improbable hope they will be artificially "noticed" by the New York Times or the Rolling Stone and make it big. But that right there is letting big money and marketing dictate art.

And films? Frankly I could live with fewer hideous Indiana Jones or Matrix sequels in favor of smaller films you won't find on any torrent unless the artist puts it there themselves. And it's sad how many older books and films you can't get because the rights can't be untangled, or have been locked away by owners who don't want the older works competing with their current "product."

kurt_cagle

(534 posts)
33. Good Analysis. However ...
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:13 AM
Jan 2012

Read my post above.

Society has become lotterized. This has been the effect of corporatization, and holds true for artistic, musical and athletic endeavors in particular. The gatekeeper economy serves to create a moat between the "talented" and the "untalented", where the talented are richly rewarded (though far less than the gatekeepers) and the untalented general toil in anonymity and hobbyist mode. In music, the "talented" are today more often than not grown rather than found - note the number of teenage popular singers and bands that all have corporate pedigrees (Disney produces gazillions of them). These kids start out young, learn quickly that they either play the game the studio's way or they end up on the other side of the moat (if not in it), and while they may make the transition to being adult professional musicians, chances are they will burn out along the way. Books still tend to be more hit and miss, partially because it takes a while to hone your skill as a writer, which means that most writers tend to be older (though note the phenomenon of Eragon, where a fifteen year old "prodigy", albeit very well connected, wrote a Lord of the Rings rip-off that went on to become a couple of movies).

However, in general, what this has meant is that there is very little room for the moderately good - good enough that people will likely read other works by this authors if they encountered them but not so good that they can be guaranteed money makers for the publishers. The effect that this has is that periodically a writer will "hit the lottery" and become a multi-millionaire, but there will be very little room for other writers that may be just as good but that didn't fit into the publishing theme calendar for this year. Most stories in a gatekeeper publisher's world never get seen by an editor - instead, they are filtered out by agents, who also have to take their 15% cut of gross revenues (which means you're paying a lobbyist to lobby for you over his other clients to publishers who have very limited budgets).

I think what's happening now with the Internet is that the gatekeeper function is getting eliminated, and the editorial vs. the financing vs. the marketing aspects of publishing are disassociating. Many of these bills are intended to stem that process (if I felt that copyright protection actually protected my rights as a writer I'd be behind these bills 100%, however, its clear to me that these bills are actually very much intended to close down the avenues that make it possible for authors and artists to control their own works.

What I see emerging now is a growing "middle realm" where stories can find an audience among a narrow enthusiast band even if it doesn't necessarily appeal broadly, where as a writer there is a venue where you can publish and still hone your craft (meaning that you have fewer one hit wonders and more solid writers that improve steadily over the years) and where you may actually be able to make a modest living off your work alone. It also benefits the prolific - if you as a writer can churn out three or four books in a year, every year, you'll do quite well.

Finally, piracy is generally cheaper than marketing for a writer, especially when the writer is prolific. The same is generally true for other creatives. The system only breaks down for the gatekeepers, and I think the tide of time is working against them.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
35. "For Profit" killed art.
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:34 AM
Jan 2012

Katy Perry. Thriller.

These are your examples of art... Seriously.

With no hint of irony.

Yet, you're suprised by Transformers 2?

That's not art. Any of it. That's profit.

Which is *why* it is mostly shit, that people don't want to pay for anymore.

Photoshop? Well, it started turning into shit about 2001, it's now about 10x *worse* than it was. It's easier to batch through later programs. MS Office? Another interesting idea that got turned into shit once it was all about money (and even Star Office got fucked the same way).

"it couldn't be free unless it was developed charitable millionaires and, again, tha is not a sustainable model."

Yeah, FUCK LIBRE OFFICE! FUCK WIKIPEDIA! FUCK GOOGLE! FUCK FACEBOOK! It must not be sustainable to give away so much....

Wait, what? That totally does not reflect how software is actually developed. Adobe didn't invest a huge amount of money into making it, two guys built it, and then Adobe bought it. Most new software is actually "built" this way, with a small team, doing it for free, and somebody buying it up. Google chrome? AND Safari? Built on KHTML, a totally volunteer project.

It's not charitable millionaires, it's millions of charitable people with a dollar or two, a minute or two. Chrome (Chromium) and Firefox are still volunteer projects. Apache (the web server giving you this page) and PHP (the programming language used to write the code for this page) are volunteer projects.

This, I find quite charming:
"In the same way brigandage leads to castles."

They're easier to siege and starve to death once they've walled themselves in. Lotus? Dead. Sun? Dead. SCO? Dead.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
8. The goal was tolerable, the methods being proposed were not
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:02 PM
Jan 2012

MPAA self interest and technological idiots in Congress are the problem. You can not break the infrastructure like they were proposing.

msongs

(67,395 posts)
10. people want somebody else's stuff and then complain about any cost associated with their wanting
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 02:16 PM
Jan 2012

the solution is to make your own music and movies. Oh wait, your own aren't as good. oh well, there's a flaw in almost any system

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
13. The blossoming of the Internet is as important than the founding of the U.S.
Fri Jan 20, 2012, 03:01 PM
Jan 2012

Its an invention created with our tax dollars, and should belong to the people.

We're only at the cusp of seeing how it is revolutionizing all facets of society.

Of course the 1 percent wants to control it. They would be stupid not to try.

But at the end of the day, they will lose.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
37. They have been trying to control it since 1990.
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:40 AM
Jan 2012

It has a shockingly large amount of power, that transcends wealth, governments, borders, and almost all existing power structures.

This makes very selfish people uncomfortable.

As it should.

AdHocSolver

(2,561 posts)
18. Authors, artists, and musicians should consider the shareware concept.
Sat Jan 21, 2012, 03:03 AM
Jan 2012

They could do what software developers in the 1980's and 1990's did. Make their creations available on "authorized" web sites and request payment to be able to support development of other products.

Most of the content of what the big corporations produce is mind-numbing rubbish.

Cable is an expensive giant wasteland in which the public is forced to pay for dozens of channels which are never watched.

The aim of SOPA and PIPA was to deny the public a choice by giving the corporations the ability to claim that any competitive content violated their copyrights without actually having to prove that was the case in court. It was their version of the Patriot Act -- guilty until proven innocent.





Initech

(100,065 posts)
23. It was never about copyright. It's about maximizing profits.
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 12:25 AM
Jan 2012

Make no mistake. The record and film industries want you to think it's about protecting artists' rights. It isn't. It's about maximizing profit margins. That's it.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
31. There's little argument that piracy is not a problem
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:00 AM
Jan 2012

There is considerable debate over how big a problem, and whom it affects most, as pointed out above.

The mechanisms of SOPA are just god awful.

Most of my work is in defending website owners against over-reaching IP claims (primarily trademark claims). The combination of unbounded arrogance and technical ignorance among my colleagues on the other side of these disputes is, frankly, the thing that is going to one day just push me over the edge.

They have got to understand that they need to engage the technology community much more constructively and pro-actively, and they might find they can solve a lot of problems if they just STFU and listen for a goddamned change, instead of running off to lobby for abominations like SOPA.

boppers

(16,588 posts)
39. Well, there is the argument that "piracy" doesn't exist...
Wed Jan 25, 2012, 02:50 AM
Jan 2012

If you have ten dollars of gold, and I copy it, so we both have ten dollars of gold, is either of us harmed?

The harm is to the entity who wants to control a value, because now we both have something worth 5 dollars, due to inflation.

Take, oh, a Lady GaGa track. Say, 1 million people have it. What is the "value" of that track?

Spike89

(1,569 posts)
48. Missing an important step there
Thu Jan 26, 2012, 06:25 PM
Jan 2012

True, if I just happen to "have" ten dollars of gold. However, if I spent an hour (a week, a year) digging for, refining, and molding that gold into something worth $10 and you come along and copy it, cutting its value to $5...I'm not going to be so likely to spend the effort next time. In reality, copying happens more than once and the real value of that $10 gold ingot/song album can drop to almost nothing.
People do deserve some consideration for their efforts/talents. I don't have the answers (SOPA/PIPA certainly aren't the answers) but neither is devaluing the worth of creative people.
Jumping off that argument for a bit...the entire discussion of copyright and IP gets totally bolluxed up whenever people insist on treating all IP/art artifacts as if they are identical. Music is not a book, nor is a painting the same as a motion picture. Likewise, the issues can't/shouldn't be examined solely from a 21st century perspective. Both past and future need to be part of the discussion.
For instance, the "music business" as we knew it is not the business that has been around for 1000s of years. The long standing tradition was built around composers and performers. Composers made their living primarily through patronage--creating songs for those who could pay for a custom song/symphony. They might also get some royalties if their creation was played in a theater/opera house. Performers would get paid for live events mostly, with a few getting patronage and of course some composers were also performers. It wasn't until a few hundred years ago that any "merchants" actually got significantly involved with the sheet music publishing business. The composer made money, the publisher made more. Performers could still do "public domain" songs or buy a sheet of music and learn a new song. The most popular performers weren't always the "best" musicians--they were the ones that could entertain the most consistantly.
Recorded music, really an artifact of the 20th century even though it has roots in the 19th, changed everything. The great performers didn't always translate to great recorders--a technically superior artist with no stage presence has an advantage on a record. Almost overnight we shifted value from charisma to skill. We also created a scarcity--there were only so many records that could be made profitably--studios, recording and duplication capability, and marketing/distribution realities limited opportunities for most performers. We went from a society with 1000s and 1000s of live musicians making modest livings travelling between dancehalls and vaudeville stages to one where a fraction of them made decent to outstanding money playing on a record.
Already we're seeing the beginnings of a change back to the live model in music. Some popular acts used to stop touring once they "made it", now, you're more likely to find bands touring without new albums.
That profound change has not happened, nor is it likely to ever happen in some other media. Paintings have almost always been copied, and near perfect prints, lithographs, etc. have been around for centuries. An original painting is still worth more than any print taken of it. Books, movies, even newspapers all have different IP metrics and what works and makes sense for them is likely to determined individually rather than in some encompassing copyright law.

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