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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGun Pandemonium as No Background Needed for Web Sales
(Bloomberg) The ad features an AR-15 semi- automatic rifle, similar to a gun used in the Newtown, Connecticut, school shootings for $2,000. No background check required. Just cash face to face with valid PA Drivers License. Its Pandemonium!
The classified ad was posted Dec. 20 on Armslist.com, a website for gun enthusiasts. Closely held Armslist LLCs site and others like it offer an easy way for gun buyers to avoid background checks, gun-control advocates say. While some sellers on the site require one, most dont because federal law doesnt require background checks for guns sold privately. In a disclaimer, the site places the responsibility on users to comply with laws and doesnt certify or investigate any person or transaction.
People need to realize there is a permanent gun show every day online that is accessible to anyone with a computer, Dan Gross, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said in an interview.
Armslist, which matches buyers and sellers and doesnt sell guns itself, didnt respond to e-mails seeking comment. .................(more)
The complete piece is at: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-21/gun-pandemonium-as-no-background-needed-for-web-sales.html
NickB79
(19,224 posts)The fact that the guy listing the gun requires a face-to-face meeting with a valid PA driver's license implies that this is an in-state sale between two private individuals. That is perfectly legal to do. Every day you can open the classified section of the local newspaper and find guns for sale in that same fashion. I had to sell a few hunting rifles to pay for college textbooks one year, and did exactly that.
HOWEVER, if a gun is shipped over state lines, it must be shipped to someone holding a Federal Firearms License, who is then required by federal law to do a background check before letting the final purchaser take possession.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The private sale loophole is called a "loophole" BECAUSE they are obeying the law, yet reaching a result which while thought to be a small exception has, in the course of the law, swallowed the whole thing.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)pipoman
(16,038 posts)application of the commerce clause for the trading or selling of private property intrastate.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...and these "gun shows" are practically permanent fixtures, the management of which most certainly operates interstate, then we are well within Wickard v. Fillburn in which the impact on interstate commerce is much less palpable.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)I'm not buying it. Further organizers who sell nothing but venue space being interstate doesn't equal interstate commerce.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And if I make and sell electronics in state, you would, wrongly, argue I was exempt from FCC Part 15.
As you know, there are no background checks for gun show sales, which have become more or less permanent fixtures in the aggregate national market for guns. As you also know, precise figures are difficult to determine exactly because of the unregulated nature of the shows themselves. Hence, the most reliable data is based on survey methods, which is why Politifact rates the claim as "mostly true":
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/25/michael-bloomberg/mayor-michael-bloomberg-says-40-percent-guns-are-s/
pipoman
(16,038 posts)The vast, vast majority of gun sales at gun shows are made by FFL dealers. Every one requires a NICS check...every one. The only sales which do not require an NICS check at a gun show or anywhere else is a private individual selling a gun to another private individual who are both residents of the same state and the transaction is being done within that state. A private individual in one state cannot sell one to a resident of another without shipping the gun to a FFL in the buyers state, and then the buyer has to pass an NICS check. You have been lied to about the "gun show loophole".
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And you can't move fireworks across borders either, which is why all those fireworks stores in PA are right next to the border.
I live five minutes from Maryland in one direction and three minutes from PA in another direction. We all have lots of friends.
It is very important to you to insist that people be able to transfer title to firearms without a background check. We all understand that.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)you are just too busy thinking of snark to listen. I prefer background checks on private sales. I simply know why they aren't required now, and likely will never be required at the federal level. You OTOH seem to be a wishful thinker trying to reinvent the wheel. No, I stated many times here, ideas for improving the background check on private sales issue. Gun controllers are often so involved in making up shit that can't work to actually be interested in possible solutions.
Oh, about the fireworks...maybe if we made it double dog illegal we can stop criminals from doing illegal shit, eh?
bossy22
(3,547 posts)and then mandates its use when anyone is selling a gun (FFL and non-FFL).
pipoman
(16,038 posts)the feds don't have the authority to make such a mandate.
jpak
(41,756 posts)Make ALL privvate sales subject to FEDERAL background checks. and register ALL guns in a FEDERAL data base.
Make failure to do so a FELONY and take the guns from the non-law abiders.
and fine them.
yup
pipoman
(16,038 posts)jpak
(41,756 posts)duh
pipoman
(16,038 posts)I'll remember to call on you,...till then...
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)pipoman
(16,038 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It'll back up traffic a bit here and there, but we surely wouldn't want the federal government overstepping its bounds.
Oh, and the US highways.
Oh, and any county or state road for which federal funds were used.
Walk the trails with all you can carry, Daniel Boone.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)I am not saying what I wish, or what I think it should be, I'm stating how it is. You apparently can't understand the limitations of the federal government in the states...that's OK, it's complicated, but every time this issue has come to a Democratically controlled congress, it hasn't ever made it out of committee. It isn't the NRA boogie man, beyond the law may be challenged by the NRA, it is the Constitution of the US which keeps the private sale issue from being addressed. There are possible solutions that nobody is interested in.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Because I took three on the way to getting a JD, instead of learning Con Law from the back of an ammunition box. Commerce in firearms will be subject to increased federal regulation, within the scope of the current Constitution, and you can take that to the bank, my friend.
And I love the "I know how to fix this, but won't tell you" thing. How about you start an OP with what, in your mind, can and should be done.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)shadowrider
(4,941 posts)I also don't have a problem with NICS checks for private sales. I would not want personal information provided to the seller. Let the FFL do the check.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)The first step is to make ity possible..
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)The majority of states allow private party sales. Calling the gun show loophole is fraudulent. Anything from an FFL requires a NICS check.
I support NICS checks for private transactions. I also support truth in media, and the cited story is crap.
samsingh
(17,590 posts)and has to put up with a lot of abuse from people who have not suffered a fraction of what their membership suffers.
online sales should be strictly controlled. i don't think the 2nd amendment said anything about the web.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)should it not apply to the web too?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)samsingh
(17,590 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
samsingh
(17,590 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
samsingh
(17,590 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)That gun sells for $600- $1000 with bells and whistles and for someone to then go and advertise to use the loophole to get the gun into the hands of someone who cannot pass a background check, this should be highly illegal.
It's one thing to sell a privately held weapon, but to purposefully bypass the background check to get the gun to a criminal for a huge profit is just wrong.
samsingh
(17,590 posts)extra policing.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)and no matter how many cops we have at practical level, they cannot always be there in real time
samsingh
(17,590 posts)former-republican
(2,163 posts)If the purchaser and buyer meet there' no law being broken.
The price is inflated because of the potential gun ban and everything has skyrocketed in price
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Everyone agrees no law is being broken.
As a democratic society, we can make new laws.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)This is so very simple,
Private sales of legal private property are not within the jurisdiction of the federal government. The "commerce clause" prohibits the feds from imposing laws on intrastate commerce. States can require background checks on private sales, the feds can't, never will be able to, and the "loophole" meme is either dishonesty or ignorance.
jpak
(41,756 posts)Take the guns away from the convicted felons.
yup
pipoman
(16,038 posts)to transport firearms across statelines and sell them without a NICS check. The only thing which doesn't require a NICS check is a private citizen selling a firearm to another private citizen of the same state, within the state they both live. Some states require checks for that too, it is up to each state.
Convicted felons are prohibited already from possessing firearms, and they should already be in the NICS system resulting in a denial if they try to buy one. Not enough is being done when they do try to buy one and are denied. Less than 5% of denials are even investigated.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Are all private sale guns sold in PA also manufactured in PA?
Did they fall from space?
We have a refinery near me which makes gasoline that, indeed, is loaded on trucks and sold in stations here.
The federal excise tax on gasoline is assessed on every pump, even though the gasoline is refined right here in state.
How is this possible, oh Con Law scholar?
pipoman
(16,038 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The USPS delivers a lot of intrastate mail, too.
Go ahead and drill for petroleum, refine it, and sell gasoline all in one state, and see if the Feds don't take a - perfectly lawful - interest in it.
Your view of the interstate commerce clause is nowhere near its scope.
I asked you a question, dear. Answer it. Why is federal tax assessed on gasoline manufactured and sold in my state?
I'll wait all day.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)Guns are sold by FFL's and a background check is done. The new owner of said gun decides to sell it privately, and does so without a background check as it is not required to sell his NOW private property.
The origination of the gun in PA is via FFLs. Once it is purchased, it is now private property and can be sold within the same state to someone from the same state legally. To ship it over state lines would require the FFL to handle the transaction.
I think you're reading too much into this. Just my $0.02
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 23, 2012, 02:59 PM - Edit history (1)
Federal law can indeed reach private transactions which do not cross state laws. This is not the 19th Century.
The corn mash and the still are all my private property too. Are you seriously suggesting that I can sell whiskey to my in-state neighbor without violating a federal law?
I have news for your buddies in the woods.
Kinda odd that we seem to have no problem doing this with alcohol and tobacco, but not firearms. It would almost make sense to have one agency, or perhaps a bureau, doing it.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)what I am saying is made up. Doesn't matter to me what you don't understand. Sometime while you are pondering your superior stands-to-reason skills, ponder why the fictitious "gun show loophole" is still around, even after several congresses with Democratic rule. Why a Democratic lead house judiciary committee would reject bringing private sales into the NICS system and not even allow it to go to a vote.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)...FEDERALLY.
So fucking much for CAN'T BE DONE.
And even if not. Feds could simply require that all firearms be registered, and then fuck the commerce clause entirely, if the seller wants to take his chances in being automatically on the ticket (with zero defence) as the REGISTERED OWNER of a gun subsequently used in a crime then fine by me.
Same goes for stolen weapons later used in a crime. If you didn't report it stolen at the time, your finger is still on the trigger when it kills a thousand miles and three states away.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)It's only wishful thinking because 4 million arseholes make more noise than 40 sobbing parents.
former-republican
(2,163 posts)I have seen stock no modification Bushmasters and Colts selling for up to $3000.00
I wouldn't buy it at that price if it was a stock.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...between private individuals. Anything involving an interstate sale or an intrastate sale by an FFL-holder requires a check. I'd like to see private sellers have access to the NICS system, personally...although I realize that might be an easily-ignored requirement.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)and everyone who might have access to them has to complete an anger management class.
A lot of people with tremendous anger problems are not at all mentally ill.
And it is anger that is the problem, not mental illness or even guns. Although I do think that everyone should know who has the guns.