Phoenix Woman Accidentally Fatally Shoots Brother In Head While Posing For Facebook Picture

[proud2BlibKansan]

Manuel Ortiz, 22, was accidentally shot in the head by his 19-year-old sister, Savannah Ramiriz, while they were posing with a gun for a Facebook photo. Ortiz died instantly.

Family and friends wept as his body was carried from his apartment in Phoenix, Arizona, where the shooting took place.

Police said 22-year-old Ortiz and his sister Savannah Ramirez arrived back at the home they shared on New Year’s Eve after spending the night drinking.

They were with two other people when someone in the group pulled out the handgun to take photos with it.

As the 19-year-old posed and played around with the weapon it went off striking Ortiz in the head, according to ABC15.

He was pronounced dead at the scene.

http://www.alan.com/2013/01/02/phoenix-woman-accidentally-fatally-shoots-brother-in-head-while-posing-for-facebook-picture/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+liberaland+%28Alan+Colmes+Liberaland%29&utm_content=FaceBook

[MrScorpio]

1. How tragic

Guns are not toys to pose with

[freshwest]

12. Very true. Still quite young. What an image to deal with for the rest of their lives.

[Kolesar]

78. We need "Facebook reform" ! ... eom

[otohara]

89. Posing With Guns Is Gaining Popularity

The NRA need to have some "training" courses on how to properly pose with your new weapon with out shooting someone dead in the head.

This is more than tragic, it's murder by oops, cuz we have too many fucking guns.

[loyalsister]

101. One of my FB friends posted a pic of his newborn granddaughter hugging a handgun

[renate]

103. I actually gasped out loud when I read that

I can't even imagine what it must be like to live inside the roiling mind that considers that an appropriate thing to do.

[loyalsister]

109. My thoughts exactly

It's an old HS pal. I would not have expected it from him.

[Arkansas Granny]

112. That is just a chilling thought.

[derby378]

108. I heartily agree

What a senseless waste of a young life.

[reverend_tim]

128. too many young people were getting in trouble with drinking we raised the legal age for drinking

does the age for gun ownership need to be raised to 31 ?

[Speck Tater]

2. If only he had been armed....

[baldguy]

5. Now is not the time to show the vacuous stupidity of the standard RW talking points.

[Speck Tater]

22. Sarcasm is its own rewartd. nt :-)

[Bake]

45. Actually now is the time to point out the OBVIOUS:

1. Guns are not toys to be posed with for Facebook pictures.

2. Do NOT pick up a gun if you've been drinking, as these kids had been.

How hard is THAT??? DUH.

Bake

[stevenleser]

76. Right, because its so common not to do dumb things when you are intoxicated... oh wait...

Guns are the problem here, not those people or the alcohol.

[Bake]

87. I repsectfully disagree

The problem here is twofold: alcohol AND stupidity.

If you want to make this an argument for banning guns, that's not going to fly with me. We don't let stupid drunk people drive cars either.

Bake

[Chan790]

104. We also make people prove their operating competency...

with a motor vehicle before we allow them to legally-operate one and the penalties for failing to be properly-licensed while operating one are severe.

I take it I have your support for a licensing and competency-bar on second-amendment rights?

[Bake]

114. My CCW required both.

I don't necessarily agree for general ownership/non-CCW.

Edited to add: Licensing and passing a driver test don't prevent drunk driving fatalities either, do they? Didn't think so.

Bake

[Hoyt]

91. How about not being allowed to have guns if you drink, take Rx drugs that alter judgement, etc.

You guys just keep making excuses for all the so-called "responsible" gun owners who aren't responsible at all.

[Peregrine]

111. So which disqualifies me

1 or 2 beers a month
The wine or beer I cook with
My blood pressure med
My uric acid med
Or my Zoloft

[Hoyt]

113. I think you know answer, but apparently don't care.

[jillan]

3. Time to arm facebook!

[mindwalker_i]

4. Time to arm cameras :)

[DavidDvorkin]

6. Let's drink heavily and play with a gun

What could possibly go wrong?

[Kalidurga]

7. Plastic bags have a warning on them...

this is not a toy. We need to stamp the same warning on guns.

[CakeGrrl]

14. People who lack the sense to know what a loaded gun will do learn the hardest way possible.

Hopefully the sister will now take that lesson to heart. It's too bad it takes such an extreme reminder.

[JesterCS]

8. Couldnt the picture have worked just as well WITHOUT it being loaded? n/t

[Confusious]

18. Yea, but the type of people who would play with a gun

or point it at their head, are, statically speaking*, the least likely to take the bullets out.

[booley]

32. can't always tell when a gun is loaded

sometimes a bullets stays in the chamber and you don't realize it.

When I was in theatre I heard horror stories about people who brought guns they thought were unloaded as props and it went off, sometimes killing people.

[Tempest]

35. You can always tell when a gun is loaded

It's call gun safety.

And it wasn't used in this case.

[Bake]

48. Thank you.

You can check the chamber. Any responsible gun owner checks the chamber as soon as he/she picks up a weapon.

Bake

[Bucky]

53. No, YOU can always tell. This woman couldn't because, ironically, SHE was probably loaded.

[Hosnon]

99. I believe the reference was to one of the cardinal rules of guns and gun safety:

It's always loaded. Always.

[booley]

123. except this has happened with sober people too

So just because someone thinks they always will know doesn't mean they will always will know.

[booley]

121. Umm I have had gun safety classes

Had them in boot camp.

One of the first safety lessons they taught was to always assume a gun was loaded because a gun can seem empty when it isn't.

So I guess we had different safety classes.

Seriously, guns are lethal weapons with little to no margin for error. Everytime I hear someone makie a statement that belies that fact, it makes me worry.

[Tempest]

124. Are you sure you responded to the right post? Because you just agreed with me. n/t

[booley]

125. So you agree that you can't always tell if a gun is loaded?

and that's it' best to assume it is because guns are dangerous weapons with a very small a margin or error?

Because that's what i was saying.

[Tempest]

126. No, I don't.

What gun safety programs have taught me is that there are no accidental shootings from those cases.

It's from negligence.

[Recursion]

47. You never pick up a weapon without making sure it is Condition 4.

Ever.

Even after you've made sure, you elevate or depress the muzzle at all times.

Always.

This is why.

[obamanut2012]

84. this

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. You can always tell

and none should handle a weapon without checking if a gun is actually loaded.

This is poor gun safety you just posted.

[Tempest]

71. Poor and dangerous, as these people found out. n/t

[booley]

122. yeah and no

it was poor gun safety.

But that's the point. Gun safety is to always assume there's a bullet even if you have unloaded it.

And guns have almost no margin for error.

[obamanut2012]

82. That's why you take out the magazine and open the slide

Some pistols also have a magazine disconnect (mine doesn't). Same basic thing with a revolver.

A gun is ALWAYS loaded.

And, messing with a weapon while drunk?! Ugh.

[jberryhill]

9. NRA proposes waiting period for Facebook accounts

[Tom Ripley]

63. Bestest post of the year!

nicely done

[Erose999]

98. More like "NRA proposes armed guards for Facebook". You get a George Zimmerman looking over your

shoulder while you're posting cat pictures.

[JI7]

10. there was a similar case from a few days ago

the guy ended up shooting a friend. i think they or at least he was drunk .

[Bandit]

50. There was a case yesterday in Sitka Alaska a gal was unloading her Kayak and her rifle went off

Killing her instantly. Her brother was with her when it happened...

[TeamPooka]

11. New NRA meme: Guns don't kill people, Facebook kills people.

[Coyotl]

29. +1000

Did they get it on film?

[Bucky]

59. You can have my Facebook when you pry it out of my cold dead... um... iPad?

[TeamPooka]

118. :)

[geomon666]

13. They probably saw this in a video game

It all makes sense now.

[cynatnite]

15. Guns and alcohol...yep, perfect combination for the vapidly stupid. n/t

[hunter]

62. Ask Dick Cheney...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney_hunting_incident

[cynatnite]

120. Zing. Good one! n/t

[slackmaster]

16. Basic gun safety should be taught in public schools

[marions ghost]

26. Unfortunately

you are probably serious.

[SQUEE]

60. And your stance on sex ed is?

I ask because like it or not there are guns out there in the world, and people may have occasion to need to know how to properly handle them.
Now if we can agree that the myriad dangers out there that can befall our children with in the sexual realm, how is it not paramount that they be prepared should they ever have a situation involving a firearm.

[marions ghost]

64. If people want to use guns

there are plenty of people who will teach you. It's not something to learn in school along with sex-ed. Not something to promote, as if everyone who is likely to engage in sex is also likely to engage in guns. Guns are not equated with growing up, or as a tool one needs as an adult. Guns are a lifestyle choice.

IF YOU WANT TO TEACH GUN DEFENSE in school--OK! As a part of self-defense training for kids in PE I would be FINE with that. There's a big diff between teaching basic self-defense and teaching how to handle guns (gun safety etc). One is defensive--the other promotes the use of guns to kids. I don't believe in anyone under 18 using a gun or hunting--for any reason.

(I've had weapons self-defense training myself & have a 2nd degree black belt in Okinawan Shorin Ryu).

[SQUEE]

66. You miss my point.

And, you are saying sex ed is promoting sex, if teaching gun safety is promoting guns.
I believe neither one is promoting, but I find it telling your personal beliefs are more important than public safety. I hear RW Xtians make those points about sex ed.

[marions ghost]

68. I sure do miss your point

since it's based on a false equivalency.

No need for teaching gun use in schools because people do not need guns. They have no real benefit or function unless you are hunting (and as I said--over 18 for that--when teens are more mature).

You ignore my point about teaching gun and weapon defense as a part of general self-defense. I do think we need that in schools.

[SQUEE]

70. I don't care if it is taught in Home Ec.

I just realize, there are guns in the world, and wherever and however it is taught, children need to learn proper ways to interact. Ideally this is a parents role.
Sadly the only major player in firearms certification and safety is the NRA, this allows an agenda based curriculum to happen, ideally a terms neutral program could be created and taught that fulfills both of our desire to see that ignorance stops and deaths come down.

[bongbong]

79. HUH????

> Sadly the only major player in firearms certification and safety is the NRA,

If by safety you mean "making America unsafe by being a shill for the murder industry", then you're right.

[SQUEE]

80. Try and find a safety class not run, taught or affiliated with the NRA

I am involved in and with the shooting and manufacturing community. NRA accrediting is recognizes by the states, and most instructors are NRA certified to comply with training requirements.

now read the rest of my post, and address that.

[bongbong]

83. NRA Safety classes?

It took me about 5 seconds with google to find scads of gun safety classes with no NRA involvment at all.

You Delicate Flowers just throw "facts" out there and hope nobody calls your bluff. What a laugh. Disgusting, dangerous, and paranoid, but still a laugh.

[SQUEE]

86. ever attended one?

simple question,
can you answer it?

[bongbong]

90. LOL

Hilarious! I caught you on your blatant attempt to, well, I can't use the "L" word here, so I'll just say "mislead".

Now you're moving the goalposts to another question!

Predictable. I pity the scared, paranoid, little Delicate Flowers.

[SQUEE]

93. so scared I can't answer salient points, or direct questions.

I ask because if you ever had you'd know every event, every range, every class has NRA pamphlets, and sign up forms. Every one.
You would speak better from experience, of course I know you would never have a firearm, as you could not honestly fill out a 4473.

I refrain from smileys in ernest discussion of life and death, and your attempts at gotcha and sophistry merely show you have no concerns, except to score points in an argument, one which you are ignorant of a culture you claim to hate.

[bongbong]

96. Still laughing

> I ask because if you ever had you'd know every event, every range, every class has NRA pamphlets, and sign up forms.

So if you put pamphlets and sign up sheets out, it means it's "run, taught or affiliated with the NRA"? (your words)

Oh, and now you're upping the ante by claiming EVERY one. Good luck proving that.

As Arnold would say, "Dat's A Gut One!"

[Hoyt]

92. That's the problem, quit having Wayne LaPierre lovers teach safety. Get people not steeped in guns.

Especially those who profit from guns.

So what do the manufacturers/marketeers and other gun profiteers have to say about Sandy Hook and all the other responsible gun owners who turn out not to be responsible?

[SQUEE]

94. I advocated the very same thing in an earlier post..

A terms neutral course of safety for young people.

They are actually to busy making millions to talk right now. I am having to turn down people for classes, and sadly refer them to other instructors that do push an agenda.

[Hoyt]

97. Well let's treat gun manufacturers/marketeers "making millions" like any other polluter in society.

[SQUEE]

110. Except not eveyone agrees with your premise

Sorry, I believe in some more intelligent and rational discussion to better vet and train owners. but I do not accept your premise that firearms are evil, nor are gun owners the pariahs nor evil, and irresponsible Wyatt Earps you see them as. We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

[Rob H.]

75. "No need for teaching gun use in schools because people do not need guns."

Need them or not, there are guns out there and the hunter safety class I took in high school was as much about what to never, ever, ever do with a gun as it was about hunting, if not moreso. IMO, it's much better to be informed about guns and the damage they can potentially do and how to handle them to ensure your own safety and the safety of whoever else might be around than to decide that kids don't need to know anything about guns since they don't "need" them. (For the record, we never fired a gun as part of the class.)

I was 14 years old when I took the class (I'm 44 now) and still remember a lot of the safety rules I learned then. Like I said below, I'm not a hunter nor do I own guns, but my dad is a hunter and has guns, so it isn't as if I'm never around them. I'd rather know exactly how not to handle them than think I'll be okay as long as the safety's on, no matter what else I might do with them.

[Bay Boy]

129. This may blow your mind...

...but kids as young as 6 have hunted and taken deer with a rifle in some states.

[marions ghost]

131. Doesn't blow my mind

I see them here. I also see this:

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/Tarboro-12-Year-Old-Killed-In-Hunting-Accident-185058431.html

----------------

It's ridiculous to see kids this young shooting, killing animals. Kinda reminds me of those Beauty Pageant children--ie. borders on child abuse. Let them do that stuff when they're 18 if they want to. Too many adults want to live through their kids and push them into doing stuff they may regret later.

[Bay Boy]

132. While I tend to agree.....

...that 6 is too young I think it's silly to suggest they should wait until they are 18.

[marions ghost]

133. A child is probably not going to want to shoot guns on their own

so let them decide when they're over 18 to do that stuff--when they really are adult enough to handle it.

Like flying planes (remember that girl?), parachute jumping, some extreme sports (or any sport that the parent is more interested in than the child). I would also put having babies in the over 18 category.

Under 18 is just too young to make sensible decisions about guns, and it is during the time when teens are most vulnerable (most vulnerable to suicide by gun also). Actually I think this IS a relatively young age, judging by all the immature stuff kids still get up to in the early 20's (including taking pix of friends holding guns to their heads for Facebook).

Using guns requires more maturity than people realize IMO. I think if kids really want to hunt, they can do it later. Too dangerous to learn to do any kind of killing when young, especially in a violence saturated culture.

Thanx for the input & discussion.

[Bay Boy]

134. Where and when did you grow up?

I grew up in a small town in Michigan in the 60s. We played cowboys & indians and war all the time. I'd see friend's dads come back from hunting and be fascinated with seeing what they got. In Michigan the traditional age to start small game hunting is 12 (with a shotgun) and 14 with a rifle for deer. My friend's sons then, and may sons when they were under 12 years of age would go out hunting with their dads in anticipation of the day they could go out to hunt and carry a gun. The Genie is out of the bottle. But who the Hell is advocating just given a kid a gun so that he would have the opportunity to commit suicide?

[marions ghost]

135. urban environment

same time frame roughly. But I knew and saw hunters then. Some killed for food, some killed for sport. And I have seen teen suicides with family guns and lethal accidents--with all the typical "gun safety" rules followed. (Actually my responsible gun owner grandfather die of wounds from a hunting accident).

I think we need some more updated "coming of age" rituals. Hunting woodland animals is a barbaric thing to train today's kids to do. What does it teach? What functional use is it?

Times change. Find new challenges.

[stevenleser]

77. People know how to handle cars too, but when they drink, that does out the window. We need cars.

We dont need guns.

[SQUEE]

85. Nevertheless, we do have them.

And they are not going away. So therefore it is irresponsible not to teach basic firearms safety to everyone, especially children.

[Rob H.]

49. My high school PE class had a few weeks on it

We went through the Tennessee hunter education course. (Tennessee requires completion of the course before you do any hunting.) I'm not a hunter and don't have any guns, but it was good to learn about basic firearm safety because my dad does hunt and has guns. Always good to know how to deal with them--I think the first rule we learned was even if you know the gun you're holding isn't loaded, always behave as if it is and don't ever point it at anything you don't intend to shoot at. (And if you don't know whether it's loaded, check for yourself as soon as it's in your hands just to be absolutely certain.)

[jpak]

61. They should teach it in bars first

ugh

[Nolimit]

17. Here's how I see it.

No doubt they were trying to get a picture of her pointing it at the camera. The sister, likely being a gun noob, probably had her finger on the trigger of the loaded gun and didn't realize how much pressure it would take to fire.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

21. as a former participant of late night parties in Phoenix,

I can say there will be many guns in the room. It's 'cool' for wanna-be's to post gun pics on their facebooks, they think it makes them look tough.

[6000eliot]

19. Drinking and guns? What could possibly go wrong?

[Demo_Chris]

20. Sad for everyone involved.

[Orrex]

23. The NRA won't give a shit because the shooter and victim don't have "American" names

But probably the solution is more guns.

Along with some more guns.

[Enrique]

24. guns per capita

with such an extreme number of guns, many of them get into the hands of people that shouldn't have them. For example, th unfortunate family in the story, whose children (19 and 22-year-old children) were allowed to play with guns.

[marions ghost]

25. This stuff happens a lot

Maybe Facebook should not allow pointing guns at people pix?

I'm dead serious.

[snooper2]

28. you can't protect people from their own stupidity

[Coyotl]

30. Yes you can. Don't let stupid people have guns!

At some point it is important to realize people ARE stupid!

[snooper2]

33. evolution works in mysterious ways

[Coyotl]

38. First Darwin Award nominee of 2013!

Acts of stupidity which remove oneself from the gene pool, getting drunk all night and posing with a loaded weapon. Yeah, that qualifies.

Not as stupid as the guy using an electric wire to stun a pond of fish, then getting all excited and rushing into the water to grab the fish. He won that year.

[marions ghost]

37. People pointing guns at people photos

---seems to me Facebook could stop this.

[snooper2]

40. I think they should stop mustard attack photos as well...

[marions ghost]

42. Seems not the same thing

but go ahead and equate it if it makes you feel better.

Gun lovers always have the silly rebuttals.

We're talking about REAL gun photos here (DUH).

[snooper2]

44. I don't love guns, I do love my family, my air compressor and job

and McRibs, damn they are yummy in a nasty kind of way LOL


Are you going to propose to them they ban the photoshopped ones as well?




You should start a facebook group and see how many likes you can get to start to petition the company

[marions ghost]

46. I made it clear

--quote--I said: "People pointing guns at people" pix. (Whether real or pshopped).

I was making it that specific because of the prevalence of this "oops, sorry I shot ya" problem.

I don't think I should have to do anything to "petition" FB--(will they listen to me--no)--

I think they should do it on their own.

[truebrit71]

27. Really? Just how fucking stupid do you have to be to "play around" with a loaded gun?

...Guns are not toys or props...plus alcohol...yep...a whole bunch of good decisions being made on that occasion...Darwin at work..

[global1]

31. So Is She Considered A Good Person With A Gun Or A Bad Person With A Gun.....

hmmmm..... a gray area here NRA - don't cha think?

[Tempest]

34. First nominee for the 2013 Darwin Award. n/t

[KG]

36. Darwin Awardees kill themselves.

[HereSince1628]

41. Well, she lost come 'inclusive fitness' by that act.

so Darwin is still in play, although it's a weaker case than if she had shot a pathenogenically produced sister.

[Bucky]

56. Or otherwise remove themselves from the gene pool.

Accidental self castration can also be a qualifier. That's good to know, in case I ever wanna fill up that blank spot in my book case.

[Tempest]

72. Not always

If they were involved in something stupid, they qualify.

Him being around drunks with a gun possibly qualifies him.

[avebury]

39. Stupid is as Stupid Does

If they had been drinking it could have just as easily been the brother shooting the sister or one of the other two visiting idiots. I have no patience for idiots. Negligent homicide, go straight to jail for both the sister and person stupid enough to bring out a gun in the midst of a drunken bunch of people.

[marions ghost]

43. Sounds like it wasn't their gun

The gun OWNER should go to jail.

[avebury]

65. As should the sister.

She pulled the trigger. I am sick and tired of hearing the oh my God, what a tragedy or what an accident. People need to be held accountable for their actions. As long as people are not held accountable for their actions, incidents like this will continue to occur.

[marions ghost]

67. She is much less guilty than the owner

--who didn't learn the most basic gun safety that goes with ownership. He should go to jail. She should get probation. The death of her brother is punishment enough.

This stupid gun owner needs to pay--big. If he hadn't handed it to her, the drunk girl couldn't have use it for her photo op fatality.

[avebury]

88. We will just have to agree to disagree. nt

[Savannahmann]

51. Well, I guess according to the NRA lovers here, we should celebrate this.

It is a great exercise of their 2nd Amendment rights. Thank God we didn't ban guns, or that boy would be alive.

[Bucky]

52. Dear God, how horrible.

New Rules for 2013

* Don't handle a loaded gun when you've been drinking
* Don't assume the gun is unloaded when you've been drinking
* Don't point a gun at your photographer even if you assume the gum is empty. If you have an Automatic, there's probably still a bullet in the chamber.
* Don't offer to take a picture of someone who's been drinking when she's so impaired that she's waving a gun around the living room.

Jesus, what a pointless tragedy. I guess the cops can pry his gun from his cold dead fingers now.

[kestrel91316]

54. If only Mr. Ortiz had been armed, too - this never would have happened.

[Auntie Bush]

55. Just another fun day with a gun!

I hope the owner never gets another nights sleep. I just wish more people/gun owners would learn something from tragic incidences like this... but, instead they go out and buy even more guns. Fools!

[LeftinOH]

57. "Like"

[ManiacJoe]

69. The Four Gun Safety Rules

http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

Violate one of them and you will scare folks.
Violate two or more and someone may die.

[mikeysnot]

73. Responsible gun owners = myth

[SQUEE]

81. reasonable abolitionist, moreso.

[WI_DEM]

74. drinking and guns don't mix.

and somebody just happened to have a handgun they pulled out to enhance the New Year's Fun.

[Chorophyll]

95. More responsible gun owners, standing their ground and fighting off the tyrannical US government.

On Facebook. With drinks.

[xchrom]

105. +1

[One_Life_To_Give]

100. Photo tells you trouble will happen

I don't want to be near anyone with a gun who would pose in such a position.

[rightsideout]

102. "Dead at the scene"

A phrase I'm sure we'll hear a few thousand times this year in Glorified Gun Haven America.

[malaise]

106. Maybe we should provide a ange lage enough for the irrespoonsible gun nutz to shoot

one another and write it off as Darwin's solution for mankind.

[noiretextatique]

107. guns don't kill people

the brother is dead, and the sister will live with guilt for the rest of her life.

[LostInAnomie]

115. I knew a guy that did something similar...

... only to himself.

He was a moron that felt he needed to have a handgun on him at all times and when he was in a private setting would speak emphatically making gestures with the loaded gun in his hand. One day he was sitting at his dinner table talking to his friend about something (doing his typical flailing around with his gun) and he went to point at his head with the gun to indicate "someone wasn't thinking" and he accidently pulled the trigger. His friend was facing the other way at the time, heard the shot and turned around in time to see him slump over and the gun fall out of his hand.

Stupid people with guns are dangerous.

[NoodleyAppendage]

116. Sucks. Flashing gang signs...so maybe a future crime was prevented.

While not definitive, flashing handguns and gang signs increases the likelihood that criminal activity was either in their past or potential future. Alcohol and guns don't mix for thugs too, I guess.

[tnvoter]

119. alcohol and guns don't mix period.

for anyone. thug or "responsible" gun owner.

[catbyte]

117. Guns & booze. Awesome idea; what could possibly go wrong?

[northoftheborder]

127. No law can prevent dumb and stupid, but I'm still in favor of more stringent laws.

[SummerSnow]

130. Hmm another "responsible " gun person.