Flashback: The Iraq war is over.

[ProSense]

NYT 2008:

Contractors in Iraq now employ at least 180,000 people in the country, forming what amounts to a second, private, army, larger than the United States military force, and one whose roles and missions and even casualties among its work force have largely been hidden from public view. The widespread use of these employees as bodyguards, translators, drivers, construction workers and cooks and bottle washers has allowed the administration to hold down the number of military personnel sent to Iraq, helping to avoid a draft.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/washington/12contractors.html

NYT 2012:

Iraq’s oil sector alone, which accounts for more than 90 percent of the government’s budget, relies heavily on tens of thousands of foreign employees. The United States Embassy employs 5,000 contractors to protect its 11,000 employees and to train the Iraqi military to operate tanks, helicopters and weapons systems that the United States has sold them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/16/world/middleeast/asserting-its-sovereignty-iraq-detains-american-contractors.html?pagewanted=all

From 180,000 contractors to 5,000, that's a 175,000 contractor drawdown since 2008.

None of this matters:

Obama May Face Tough Decision as Iraqi Leader Signals U.S. Troops Could Stay
http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/obama-may-face-tough-decision-as-iraqi-leader-signals-u-s-troops-could-stay-20110512

Iraq says it's asked for 5,000 U.S. trainers, awaits reply
http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/11/2449098/iraq-says-its-asked-for-5000-us.html

Iraq still seeking U.S. trainers: PM Maliki
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/22/us-iraq-usa-maliki-idUSTRE79L1C720111022?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

Old rumors don't count. Contractors guarding embassy personnel and training Iraqis are not U.S. troops. The troops are out, the war is over!




http://www.whitehouse.gov/iraq

[ProSense]

1. Kick! n/t

[sad sally]

2. "The troops are out, the war is over!" for Americans, but not for the Iraqi people - too bad, huh?

And yes, it's good US troops are out; not unexpected, disaster was left behind from an unnecessary, illegal war (there were no weapons of mass destruction, the premise the war was began on).

January 15, 2012:
Light violence left 10 Iraqis dead and seven more wounded. The worst attack took place in Diyala province. Meanwhile, Human Rights Watch warns that Iraq is slipping back into an authoritarian police state despite promises from the U.S. government that it left behind a stable democracy.

January 18, 2012:
A prominent Sunni politician was arrested today on terrorism charges, as a surge in violence continues thanks to sectarian political tensions. At least 11 Iraqis were killed and 16 more were wounded.

January 20, 2012:
A security force arrested yet another Sunni politician today, as at least five Iraqis were killed and nine more were wounded in new violence. The top Shi’ite cleric, meanwhile, urged politicians to resolve their differences for the benefit of the country.

January 23, 2012:
A series of bombs targeting Shi’ite neighborhoods in Baghdad left behind dozens of casualties. However, there was an unusually large number of smaller attacks across the country as well. This often happens when there is a significant attack or attacks in the capital, as overseas attention is focused back on Iraq. Overall, at least 34 Iraqis were killed and 109 more were wounded in thes violence.

[zipplewrath]

3. they don't all work for the US government directly

Alot of those 180K were working for private firms who had US contracts inside the country. I suspect alot, but not all, of them have left. I wager it's much larger than 5K, but much less than 180K. And at this point they are subject to Iraqi courts.

And the war isn't over by a long shot. We're just finally out of the line of fire.

[ProSense]

4. You know what

"And the war isn't over by a long shot. We're just finally out of the line of fire. "

...that makes no sense!

Embassy security and trainers in a country is not a war.

[sad sally]

5. Maybe not for "Embassy security and trainers in a country is not a war" - for the other

millions of people who make Iraq their home, not so peaceful - a "budding police state" continues.

By BARBARA SURK, Associated Press – Sun Jan 22, 7:23 am ET

BAGHDAD – Iraq's Shiite-led government cracked down harshly on dissent during the past year of Arab Spring uprisings, turning the country into a "budding police state" as autocratic regimes crumbled elsewhere in the region, an international rights groups said Sunday.

Iraqi security forces routinely abuse protesters, harass journalists, torture detainees and intimidate activists, Human Rights Watch said in the Iraq chapter of its annual report.

"Iraq is quickly slipping back into authoritarianism," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director for the New York-based group. "Despite U.S. government assurances that it helped create a stable democracy (in Iraq), the reality is that it left behind a budding police state." Iraqi officials could not be immediately reached for comment.

Protests against Iraq's U.S.-backed and democratically elected government erupted around the country in February 2011, partly inspired by demonstrations elsewhere in the Arab world.

http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20120122/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iraq?du

[zipplewrath]

6. Guess I take a more humane view

The violent activity in which we were involved in Iraq continues to this day. We just aren't involved anymore. The Iraqi people still are.

[ProSense]

7. Well,

Guess I take a more humane view

The violent activity in which we were involved in Iraq continues to this day. We just aren't involved anymore. The Iraqi people still are.

...I guess I'm not understanding your point. The OP is that the Iraq war is over, meaning for the U.S., the troops are out. No one said anything about Iraq not being in conflict.

So in your "humane view," what were you expecting when the U.S. withdrew? Did you want the U.S. to withdraw?

Ending a war, the U.S. involvement and occupation, is not the same as undoing the devastation to life and property over the last nine years. The U.S. is no longer at war in Iraq.

[zipplewrath]

9. And my point

And my point was that the war isn't over, the war we started is still going on, we just left. I'm glad we're out, but there is precious little reason for any celebration or for congradulations to be handed out.

[ProSense]

10. Well,

"And my point was that the war isn't over, the war we started is still going on, we just left. I'm glad we're out, but there is precious little reason for any celebration or for congradulations to be handed out."

...I see every reason to celebrate leaving. When we leave Afghanistan, I plan to celebrate that too.

[sad sally]

11. Appreciation to military members and their families, a period of silent reflection, relief -

but celebration for the mess left?

The only reason for celebration would be if Bush, Cheney, and their gang were on trial for starting the Iraq War and the unnecessary deaths of 4,484 Americans and 320,000 veterans with brain injuries, and anywhere from 200,000 to 1,000,000 dead Iraqis.

[ProSense]

12. Wait

"but celebration for the mess left?"

...who's celebrating the "mess left"?

That has nothing to do with celebrating the end of the U.S. presence in Iraq. That's celebrating the end of U.S. troops in harms way, the end of U.S. troops as a magnet for violence, the end of the U.S. involvement in destroying the country.

[zipplewrath]

29. A tad selfish don't ya think?

You screw up the plumbing, flood the whole building, and then throw a celebration when your apartment is cleaned up, but the rest of the building is still wet?

[sad sally]

8. At least before the US exited, our fine security forces taught them how to handle people who

they don't agree with. No American responsibility here, in fact we've been given assurances by our civilian and military leaders that the US helped create a stable democracy in Iraq.
####

Iraq's Maliki accused of detaining hundreds of political opponents

By Roy Gutman, Sahar Issa and Laith Hammoudi | McClatchy Newspapers

BAGHDAD — Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki's security services have locked up more than 1,000 members of other political parties over the past several months, detaining many of them in secret locations with no access to legal counsel and using "brutal torture" to extract confessions, his chief political rival has charged.

Ayad Allawi, the secular Shiite Muslim leader of the mainly Sunni Muslim Iraqiya bloc in parliament, who served as prime minister of the first Iraqi government after the Americans toppled Saddam Hussein, has laid out his allegations in written submissions to Iraq's supreme judicial council. Allawi, whose bloc is part of Maliki's coalition government, demanded Wednesday that the prime minister grant the detainees legal counsel and due process.

Some of the confessions obtained under duress were intended to implicate Allawi in a supposed plot to foment violent unrest around the country, Allawi charged in a formal complaint to President Jalal Talabani earlier this month.

"Information has reached us that is beyond doubt regarding the brutal torture of our detainees in an attempt to extract false confessions from them, confessions referring to the general secretary himself," Allawi wrote Talabani. "They are being made to confess that he has ordered armed demonstrators onto the streets to carry out violence."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/01/19/136386/iraqs-maliki-accused-of-detaining.html?du

[JackRiddler]

13. One obvious mistake you should correct, one giant fallacy.

"Contractors in Iraq" (180,000 employees in 2008) is clearly not the same as "contractors employed by the US Embassy" (5,000 in 2011).

Therefore you cannot on this basis make the remarkable assertion, "From 180,000 contractors to 5,000, that's a 175,000 contractor drawdown since 2008." In fact, it makes you look like you think all of your readers are idiots.

Who employed the 180,000 in 2008? Various entities are mentioned. How many do they employ today? Most relevant surely is how many contractors the USG paid for directly in 2008 and 2012. Find those figures, then you can make a claim.

The giant fallacy is the idea that now that Iraq has been well and destroyed, and its peoples set against each other, the war that continues is no longer American. No. USG-Americans have withdrawn (except for the incredible 16,000 employees of the most enormous "embassy" on Earth, a town-sized administrative complex, what are they doing there?). But the war that the USG started in Iraq continues.

Since you're probably not responsible for the war personally, why do you want to spin it? Would you lose sleep to admit that your country's government has committed an enormity with repercussions that continue today?

It's good that the USG did not manage to negotiate a SOFA extension and that the bulk of troops are gone. In a generation or two, Iraq might finally be recovering from what the USG did.

[ProSense]

15. No

One obvious mistake you should correct, one giant fallacy.

"Contractors in Iraq" (180,000 employees in 2008) is clearly not the same as "contractors employed by the US Embassy" (5,000 in 2011).

Therefore you cannot on this basis make the remarkable assertion, "From 180,000 contractors to 5,000, that's a 175,000 contractor drawdown since 2008." In fact, it makes you look like you think all of your readers are idiots.

...I don't think that at all, you figured it out.

The point wasn't to do a breakout by company. Do you think the current contractors are different from the other contractors? They work for companies contracted by the U.S.

[JackRiddler]

17. "Employed by US embassy" not the same as "all USG," neither the same as total contractors

Now it's no longer your readers whose intelligence you are insulting.

[ProSense]

18. Gee

"Employed by US embassy" not the same as "all USG," neither the same as total contractors

...you think?

They're still contractors.

[A Simple Game]

14. The wars over? Wow! Who won? n/t

[ProSense]

16. Does

"The wars over? Wow! Who won?"

...the U.S. have to win for the war to be over? Maybe there was no winner. The Iraqis are still trying to get their country back together.

[JackRiddler]

19. Our Lady Satan of Perpetual War

[A Simple Game]

21. Exactly, there are no winners in war,

never have been, never will be.

[morningfog]

20. Is the US embassy the only US entity currently operating in Iraq?

Are there any DoD employees still there? I am asking because I honestly don't know.

It is good there are only 5,000 contractors working for the embassy, but that article doesn't say that is the entirety of US government presence. It will be good when we don't need any there.

As of March 2011, there were still 64,000 contractors in Iraq, of which around 18,000 were US. I'd like to see current levels total.

[JackRiddler]

22. Excellent questions. But wait...

"Only" 5,000 contractors, at an embassy with 11,000 civil servants? 16,000 personnel is not an embassy, that's a whole administrative agency. Doing what?

[SammyWinstonJack]

23. Wasting tax dollars. See, this one the reasons we americans can't have nice things like

infrastructure repair as one example.

[JackRiddler]

25. I'm not sure that just wasting the tax dollars is really worse...

than some of the other stuff they may be doing, that US embassies (a.k.a. covers for CIA and other intel stations) have done in the past, and that the USG definitely did do in Iraq. Like compiling dossiers on officials and parliamentarians, and using these to influence Iraqi politics. Using that influence to help favored contractors rather than the Iraqi people. Using that influence to affect Iraqi foreign policy on behalf of neocon-style grand strategies. Spying on everyone an everything. Bribing journalists. Sowing instability and discord. Arming and training death squads. Drawing up assassination lists. Arranging false flags. Etc. Etc.

[morningfog]

27. I found this:

"While all USF-I forces and most military personnel will leave Iraq before the end of 2011, about 120 U.S. military personnel will stay behind, as part of the embassy's Office of Security Cooperation.

One of the missions of OSC-Iraq will be to equip and train the Iraqi military, a mission that previously belonged to USF-I. Lt. Gen. Michael Ferriter, the former deputy commanding general, USF-I Advise and Train, handed over command of the newly stood up OSC-I to its first director, Lt. Gen. Robert Caslen, Oct. 1."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/usmilitary-presence-will-continue-in-iraq/2011/11/18/gIQAJAWBjN_story.html

These 120 US military will be operating out of the embassy. So, that 120 military are now working under the State Dept. As far as I can find, it does seem that the State Dept is the only operation in Iraq, with their 16,000+/-. There may be no more than 5,000 contractors. I would argue that it 5,000 too many and several thousand too many total "civil servants". But, still a helluva lot better than 300,000 or so total US and contractors.

[raouldukelives]

24. That Embassy must have been crowded. nt

[JackRiddler]

26. That "embassy" is larger than the Vatican.

Or are you making a point about the OP's failed attempt at manipulating the figures? I guess if it used to have 100,000 people it must have been crowded.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. Yay! Did we win a pony? Or, do we have to wait until we "win" in Afghanistan?

http://costofwar.com/en/

[Scurrilous]

30. Kick