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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNew Report: Solar could provide 100% of world's energy needs by 2050 using only 1% of world's land
Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM PST
New Report: Solar could provide 100% of world's energy needs by 2050 using only 1% of world's land
by beach babe in fl
In a report released today World Wildlife Fund (WWF), reporting at The World Future Energy Summit says it's research shows that not only is 100% renewal energy doable worldwide by 2050 but if necessary it could be accomplished using Solar alone.
...Research has found that PV power plants provide considerable environmental benefits, including a low carbon footprint and a short energy pay-back time.
Replacing existing grid electricity with PV arrays significantly reduces greenhouse gas and heavy metal emissions as well water usage, says Lettemieke Mulder, First Solar vice president for Sustainability.
This is important and shows that renewal energy can have a small land footprint. An increasingly crucial value as the world population increases.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/17/1179824/-New-Report-Solar-could-provide-100-of-world-needs-by-2050-using-only-1-of-world-s-land
aquart
(69,014 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Planetary climate is too important to everyone. And as the effects of climate change become impossible to ignore, I think the holdouts will be few.
progressoid
(49,984 posts)...oh hell...
adieu
(1,009 posts)to install PV solar plants.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)NMDemDist2
(49,313 posts)plastics to name just one. oil would still be needed as a lubricant in machines and it's in all kinds of industrial products.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Actually, some have already figured this out and are looking at massive solar installations.
Smart of them!
Occulus
(20,599 posts)riverbendviewgal
(4,252 posts)K & R
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Sorry
Just couldn't help myself.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I haven't looked much at solar since my Generation & Distribution class in grad school, but that was still a sticking point 5 years ago.
randome
(34,845 posts)We need a 'Man to the Moon' project to get this underway. No turning back!
Recursion
(56,582 posts)"I pledge that by the year 2023, the US will use 100% domestic renewable energy. We choose this not because it is easy, but because it is hard, etc."
But then the alarm clock always rings. Sigh.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Scrap drives, Victory Gardens, Rosie the Riveter, Manhattan Project, GI Joe, Normandy Beach, Guadalcanal, Coral Sea and all.
We won't do it but we could with sufficient provocation, extraterrestrial invasion maybe.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Unfortunately our effects on the ecosystem are killing us too slowly to bring that kind of pressure. I actually do think we'll find a lot of solutions once things get much much worse, but a whole lot of people will unnecessarily die to get people to care enough. C'est l'homme.
randome
(34,845 posts)Nah. Wouldn't work.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)ret5hd
(20,491 posts)xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)They have the right mix of electrons out past whatever valence and total mass. Shortage was a big problem back when I was studying this. (Though contrary to popular belief, the phrase "rare earths" isn't about their scarcity, though some are scarce.)
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But give me a boule of Czochralski grown silicon, some phosphorus, some boron, some aluminum, some oxygen, a wafer saw, clean water, some furnaces, an evaporator, and a buttload of organic solvents and I'll give you all the solar cells you want.
If you want to go with poly-Si cells, we can skip the CZ grown silicon, or go with any of a number of thin-film Si technologies.
There are a lot of different ways to do PV. There are some that use lanthanides for spectral conversion to obtain marginal efficiency improvements, but at some point if you are talking about a really, really huge scale, then you simply mark off a point in the efficiency/cost/scalability space, and go with it.
It's all a matter of what you want to pay for what efficiency. But if someone is handing me 1% of the earth's surface to play with, then I'm not going to care a whole lot about the efficiency.
Everyone else is going to care about what I do with that buttload of organic solvents, though....
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That's what I get for a survey course. There's a reason I stuck with Signals!
tama
(9,137 posts)do you require for all of that? What's the latest on EROEI front?
We tap all our existing fossil fuels for the juice to make all those solar cells. Oops. Sorry. That's how we got into this predicament in the first place.
I hate to be so pessimistic, I really do, but I don't see "party animal" Homo sapiens taking anything but the easy path until it actually and figuratively burns or arses. By then it's too late.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)The report is based on regular silicon PV, that's 20%
Drop down to using thin film, that's 10%
Drop down to using emerging PV, 5%
For each step you double the amount of land needed.
You can power the United States using a quarter of Arizona by PV alone. That's 1% of the land area of the 48 states.
I'm sure most people would say they're 'OK' with it, but what about the people living there already.
What about the wildlife? Do we even have enough rare earth elements?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The point is that if you are going to do something on a very large scale, you have to make choices among cost and efficiency. It's the same as anything else.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)You're going to have to kick some people out of their homes, give up farmland, or if you want someplace that's uninhabited that gets a lot of sun, that means distance, which means burning power in transport, which means more land.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It's that "Agenda 21" the kooks are on about, right?
I was going to use northern Mali, but that's off this month.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The massive global UN conspiracy to, uh, try to survive on this planet.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)California and Arizona that are not settled and have no water would be great.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)or the world?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)What percentage of the land do deserts take up?
Here in L.A. we have solar panels on our hillsides in some area. There is plenty of space for wildlife to manage quite well under and around the panels. I really don't think that most Americans fathom the amount of desert area that there is in the world.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)But it's it areas usually far away from where the electricity needs to be.
I'm sure you could cover the Sahara with solar, but the people living there (yes, people live there, very few, but they do) wouldn't like it, getting the power to markets such as Europe and the middle east and southern Africa would be hard.
Short of a worldwide demand for something like a moon project, I don't see it getting done.
We don't have the will to do our own country. It gets co-opted by people thinking their own heir own little pet peeves are more important.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Insurance rates will continue to skyrocket due to global warming.
When people complain about the high cost of alternative energy, remember that the true cost of fossil fuels is hidden in things like insurance rates, asthma, droughts and the ensuing food shortages and the other effects of climate change.
Look beyond the obvious pump costs.
I know I am a bit off topic, but I wanted to remind people what your problem is really about. We are not just destroying our earth and our infrastructure. We are also destroying our history.
I posted this elsewhere, but it applies here.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)the area required is only for regular, 20% efficiency PV. Go to 40% and the area required halves. Use roofs and parking lots and the virgin land goes down. Cover over fly waste tips, oil sands excavations and other polluted areas then even less undeveloped land is needed.
The other thing you are missing is that even current generation methods use a variety of energy sources. Coal, gas, nuclear and hydro are all used currently and multiple renewable sources will be needed in future. Factor wind, tidal stream and hydro - down goes the land area required again.
The big problem is that storage is essential. It might be necessary to use some current hydro as pumped storage but local storage will also be hugely important. I have a suspicion that Elon Musk is producing the Tesla not solely for the motoring side but largely for the battery technology. Currently the Roadster has a pack capable of delivering 215 kW from a pack weighing 450 kg and occupying about 0.25 cu metre.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Multijunction cells are exotic (and very cool in the principles applied), but 20% is almost the modern industry standard.
Good stuff!
Confusious
(8,317 posts)The other person said that you could just use thin film.
Which means a drop in efficiency. Which means more land.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)High quality modules, especially, wouldn't take up that much space.
No time here at work to check the math, but I've seen calculations done for just the US supply of energy and I think it's like 1/10 the area of the state of Nevada.
BSlappedInvisibleHan
(1 post)But if we use the 1% number and a Sharp 230 W solar panel with an installed footprint of 20 sqft, we would need about 83 Trillion solar panels. At current pricing that comes in at a paltry 4 quadrillion dollars. Before wiring, inverters, control, distribution, and let's not forget the whole need for power storage (the sun does set), grid balances, ad nauseum. Considering the fact that the US consumes 26% of the worlds power production I think we are going to need a LITTLE more area than 1% of the lower 48.
Insolation rate, cloud cover compensation, maintenance, all the factors people tend to ignore require a pretty high redundancy multiplier to assure you have enough power WHEN and WHERE you need it. Then there is the whole storage technology for load balancing and mobile power needs. Hydrogen? You will pay some pretty hefty efficiency penalties moving the power in and out of that form.
I have a solar power system on my home. At 80% subsidization (Louisiana has best solar deal going) the numbers do not add up. IF solar power made economic sense every new home in America would be optimized by roof pitch and orientation and be covered with solar panels. They are not because even with an 80% government tax credit, it does not make economic sense today.
I must admit I do not like the way my math is adding up. To swag it in from calculating the power needs another way (starting with a world demand of 15 TW) I get 360 billion solar panels at 144 trillion dollars (solar panels only: no infrastructure). Against an annual GLOBAL GDP of 70 trillion or so, it's going to take a while to do the job.
Maybe we ought to stick to proven, low cost technologies while we work on these making the new stuff economically viable. Or we could establish a worldwide dictatorship, put every single person on the planet on a subsistence level standard of living, kill off the 250 million or so intransigent folk who just will not get with the program, and by 2050 we should have it all done.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)So at 20% we would need 1/1200th.
http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/energy/great-energy-challenge/solar-power-quiz/
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)deteriorating pipelines, refineries bellowing smoke and sometimes breathing fire, cars coughing out poison gases, to say nothing of factories blowing gaseous trash into the air. Lots of infrastructure investment that we will have to make in the relatively near future.
Same for nuclear, and as we see maybe every 15 years, it's just a matter of time until the next Fukushima or Chernobyl.
All the looming costs, and we haven't even started talking about the filthy, coal-burning power plants.
"stick to . . . low cost technologies" that have been proven to have external costs? You mean like asthma in young children who live near freeways, melting glaciers and icebergs, and ever rising sea levels? Sandy and Katrina, droughts and all the extreme weather conditions that are related to global warming?
No. If the true cost of petroleum and coal were known, we wouldn't not burn it. We would use it solely for chemical manufacture and similar very important purposes.
Gas is a different matter. It should be used as little as possible but will be needed to supplement renewable energy until we can store and transmit renewable renergy.
I don't think that oil and gas are priced to reflect the cost they impose on our society and on us. Extraction, refining, marketing and storage are just the initial costs. If those fuels were accurately priced, we would use a lot less of them and the switch to renewable sources. Those renewables would seem quite efficient and economically wise.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Fire up the III-V concentrator cells!
MessiahRp
(5,405 posts)Eastern Cali, parts of Nevada... this should be easy since there are completely unusable lands out there we could put these solar panels on and use that to fuel the world.
Good luck doing this though if the oil/gas and electric company lobbies get involved.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)Which requires a long run of electrical cables, which means energy loss, which means more solar cells, which means more land.
And good luck finding a piece that's not settled or won't have something on it.
The 'sonoran desert' isn't empty.
MessiahRp
(5,405 posts)eom
Confusious
(8,317 posts)No view from a house, no plants, no animals, no nothing?
There's always going to be someone to fight it, whether it a home owner, a business owner or an environmentalist.
I think it'll be a long hard fight for every square inch.
MessiahRp
(5,405 posts)Some cities are already putting in place programs to increase rooftop gardens. If we financed rooftop solar, we could cover a lot of square miles in major cities.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)There's enough city space, IF you covered every square mile of cities with solar panels.
Being generous, say a quarter of that COULD be covered by panels. We still need to find 18,000 square miles.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)if the report is true and accurate, if additional resources were turned to figuring out how to efficiently desalinate and channel sea water into drought areas in a way that along with the additional rain-fall cause by (new growth) vegetation expiration, will return to the sea?
Am I dreaming?
randome
(34,845 posts)And I mean that in the most optimistic vein possible!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm just so tired of all the reasons for all the things we "can't" do ...
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)California.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)are invested, either intellectually or financially, in the status quo.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)I'm going to get a fleet of life-sized solar dozers to mine lithium for my iPhone 5000!
Systematic Chaos
(8,601 posts)You have the mark of an unbeliever. For shame.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Its that I do not think that producing enough solar panels (with our industrial coal backbone) to extend our lifestyle to 8 billion people (including the production of the necessary appliances like refrigerators for Africans) will ever actually materialize to a reduction in aggregate carbon emissions. Even if this solar feat was accomplished and more net available energy existed, it does not mean mankind will suddenly throttle itself and stop using dirty fuels; if we possessed self-restraint in terms of consumption, wouldn't that have been illustrated already? So no, I do not believe technology is a magic diet-pill panacea to allow us to continue our ostentatious earth-raping, and I do think we may need to revise some habits or perhaps out entire economic structure.
Systematic Chaos
(8,601 posts)The whole "teh solerz is gonna save us!!" thing is a long-running joke of mine.
I should have included the smiley or something to save you the trouble of explaining. Sorry.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)It's a serious question. I don't know.
There is no doubt that eough solar energy lands on Earth to do almost anything.
At some point in engineering scale the amount of certain less common elements becomes pertinent, though, hence the question.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)But I believe that is 575,000 square miles. Interesting.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)would be 1% of the land area of the 48 states.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)You don't have to dedicate 1% of the country only to solar panels.
If we still had kids in the house, solar energy might be feasible for us considering the amount of sun we could capture on our roof and perhaps in a place that is already cement in our backyard.
Imagine. We live on a hill in S. Calif. In our backyard we have an area that is entirely cement. Just why it is cement I do not know although I have several theories. If we had solar panels over that area, we could produce enough energy to take care of our own needs plus. Plus, the area would be shaded in the summer. (by the panels)
We don't do it because the cost of putting the panels on our house is not justified by the electricity bills for just the two of us. Or so we have been told by solar panel installation companies. I think that could easily change well before 2050.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Do we supply our own power or do we continue to use power centers. Parking garages that will power the garage and a portion of a mall. Roof tops for individual houses.
or
Larger grids. A couple of square miles in the desert that would help to deliver electricity to Las Vegas.
Whatever we do, the more people who use it on their homes or business, the better the technology and the more feasible it becomes.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Confusious
(8,317 posts)Excluding any in Alaska, because I lived there, and they're mostly trees,
the total square area of 149 cites in the United states is around 24,546 square miles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_area
A quarter of Arizona is 28,500 miles.
So if we covered every square inch of the cities with solar panels, we could do it.
PS. opps, forgot, every city isn't like Tucson. The efficiency will go down in more northern latitudes, as they don't get as much sun, so you'll need more land area.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)And as long as the panels are arranged around the little creatures and plants that survive in the desert, there isn't a whole lot else to do with the land other than drive past and look at vast stretches of it.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)The Saguaro Cactus is a protected species. There are a lot of protected species and habitats.
National parks, federal preserves, state parks, state preserves, etc.
I'd like to see it done, I'm just pointing out the problems I see.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)The amount of natural resources needed to cover that much land is huge.
onenote
(42,700 posts)Roughly the land mass of Alaska.
The problem of course is that it would have to be spread over many smaller, non-contiguous areas. And not all areas are equally usfeful as locations for solar farms.
We should be doing more with solar no doubt, but I'm not sure that simplistic declarations regarding the amount of total land mass that it would take (without considerations the complexities) are all that helpful.
RC
(25,592 posts)It is very stupid to have all your energy needs in one basket, no matter how spread out it is.
Solar, wind, natural gas (methane) and nuclear, all are needed in the future.
And while we are working on that, we need to get our population numbers down to something reasonable.
daleo
(21,317 posts)So I recall reading back in the 80's.
colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)Solar always made the most sense, it's there, it will not run out, it's clean.
We need to pump big bucks toward this and quit wasting big bucks on wars, empire, and making sure multi millionaires and billionaires don't have to pay forward much at all.
Great things are achievable if enough people quit believing the lies of Fox News and right wing radio - and thus finally begin voting for their own self interest.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Great things are achievable if enough people quit believing the lies of Fox News and right wing radio
Checkout: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_opinion_by_country
There really isn't a strong correlation between citizens' belief in global warming and emission levels. GDP is more strongly correlated to emission levels. Of the top "man made/warming serious" countries, Japan is probably the best. They've been shifted to nuclear and now toward renewables; this might have more to do with their small coal reserves than "green" awareness.
Im not sure convincing people about the truth of global warming and its potential harm will have a significant impact on emissions; it has not in the past so this idea is based on pure optimistic speculation
In America, there is this great theodicy-like belief that our evil rich people fool us is the problem. In countries that widely understand the issues, many of them are still increasing their emission levels. I wonder if the real problem is the belief that we can forever preserve industrial civilization and increase GDP/production without further ecological harm. "Greeniness" tells people we can accept the status quo of industrial civilization until technology one day magically catches up and the numbers begin to balance out in our favor; its great because it requires no real change in personal habits like a diet pill.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)The truth is, there are still plenty of people who DON'T believe in climate change, skeptic or outright denier. As much of a problem as that is, perhaps the worst problem we have to face is the Establishment itself; there are many powerful and wealthy people who would benefit monetarily from a business-as-usual fossil fuel usage scenario. And their influence stretches into many, many, governments.
So NoOneMan, amazingly enough, is actually correct on something: Belief doesn't necessarily correlate with action. But it seems that a fair number of people on here are actually blaming civilization itself for our climate woes. Not only does this highly bizarre way of thinking not only impede our ability to wake people up and to fight the System, but it may actually HELP it, partly because this mindset shifts responsibility away from those who are most culpable. It also makes us look like a bunch of crazy Luddites, and given that we already still have to deal with disinfo from the denier propagandists and those who aid them, we really can't afford to have to deal with Looney Tunes wacko crap from the fringes of our side as well.
samsingh
(17,595 posts)Brother Buzz
(36,416 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)When the sun sets, I need my furnace more than daytime. That's when I burn my energy efficient lights -- usually one 13 watt fluorescent.
Solar cannot do it alone without storage.
So we need research into that as well.
Batteries are fine, but I don't know if they are capable to provide the world's power needs.
Here in Michigan, winters are cold and dark. It's worse in the Dakotas and Minnesota, to say nothing of Canada. Etc.
So, how do we store the power?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)Burn hydrogen during the night. Thermodynamically, it's a loser, but the system would be designed to take that into account. Pumping water uphill would be even less efficient, I would think, and would depend on certain local geology.
These are tough problems, especially given that our current infrastructure is not set up to deal with these issues. But, I agree with others here. It is doable using current technologies.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)before it can be used in Electrolysis, which makes it an even more expensive proposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water
longship
(40,416 posts)Irrigation? Drinking? Electrolysis.
If there was infrastructure available, it could serve more than one purpose.
Still, storage is a problem that has yet to be solved.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)It takes a massive amount of energy. Energy which will be lost as you try and use it for storage.
Which means you have to add more PV to take that into account.
longship
(40,416 posts)But you have to do that for any PV. You're always going to have to store enough energy for night, etc.
The question is, what's the most efficient storage. Batteries? Pumping water up hill? Etc.
We need to put billions into this!
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Google "Helms Pumping Station".
Using wind, there's no such thing as a "loser" because presently we have to bury any excess energy or idle turbines, so even an inefficient storage/recovery scenario is a winner in the end.
Wind farms with on-site H2 electrolysis systems with storage and generators.
It's a pretty good scheme compared to nothing.
longship
(40,416 posts)I meant in the thermodynamic sense, more theoretical, than in practice.
I am with you. All of them are winners when you are getting your power from sun, wind, and even nukes. If you can store excess power from off-peak hours to use later, that's great.
Thx.
rightsideout
(978 posts)It's called Vehicle to Grid or V2G. Thousands of electric cars tied to the electric grid while charging during the day from solar would also act as giant capacitors to keep the grid balanced during high demand at night.
With level 2 and 3 EV charging, EVs will be able to charge quickly during the day. As they are sitting in the garage or driveway with the cords still plugged in they could feed electricity back into the grid as needed.
Don't worry about not having enough electricity for your car to get to work. The system would prevent EV battery packs from discharging below a certain point.
There are also stationary battery back up power supplies or stationary fuel cells. The fuel cells and battery back up systems would charge during the day and supply needed energy during the night.
Don't forget wind either. Wind energy tied in to the grid with solar would provide electricity. It would all be networked together.
We got solar on our house in 2012 and it supplies 70 percent of our electricity. I also have an electric car but that does help keep appliances going during power outages. Alot of my friends have used their Nissan Leafs to keep their refrigerators going during the 2012 storm outages.
So backyard hobbyists are actually doing this already.
green for victory
(591 posts)now it's mothballed
Solar Two
One of Solar Two's heliostats is shown in 2003 with the solar power tower in the background
In 1995 Solar One was converted into Solar Two, by adding a second ring of 108 larger 95 m² (1,000 ft²) heliostats around the existing Solar One, totaling 1926 heliostats with a total area of 82,750 m² (891,000 ft²). This gave Solar Two the ability to produce 10 megawattsenough to power an estimated 7,500 homes.[1]
Solar Two used molten salt, a combination of 60% sodium nitrate and 40% potassium nitrate, as an energy storage medium instead of oil or water as with Solar One. This helped in energy storage during brief interruptions in sunlight due to clouds.[1] The molten salt also allowed the energy to be stored in large tanks for future use such as night timeSolar Two had sufficient capacity to continue running for up to three hours after the sun had set.
Solar Two was decommissioned in 1999, and was converted by the University of California, Davis, into an Air Cherenkov Telescope in 2001, measuring gamma rays hitting the atmosphere. Its name is now C.A.C.T.U.S..[2] Solar Two's 3 primary participants were Southern California Edison (SCE), the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP), and the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE).
"We're proud of Solar Two's success as it marks a significant milestone in the development of large-scale solar energy projects," said then U.S. Energy Secretary Bill Richardson.
"This technology has been successfully demonstrated and is ready for commercialization. From 1994 to 1999, the Solar Two project demonstrated the ability of solar molten salt technology to provide long-term, cost effective thermal energy storage for electricity generation.", Boeing
On November 25, 2009, after 10 years of not producing any energy, the Solar Two tower was demolished[1] The mothballed site was levelled and returned to vacant land by Southern California Edison. All heliostats and other hardware were removed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Solar_Project
http://costofwar.com/
Amonester
(11,541 posts)Morroco copied the 'self-destroyed' technology, and is planning to sell power surplusses to Europe soon...
Way to go!
dorkulon
(5,116 posts)A group of Asian businessmen had a plan for several massive solar power plants that could power the world. Then nothing, of course.
Spike89
(1,569 posts)Even when they are better than the existing technologies, businesses won't pull the trigger until they can be sure it won't be cheaper/better if they wait a year or two. It is the same equation with electric/hybrid cars, but businesses are often dealing with much higher dollar figures. It doesn't even matter if the electric car is cheaper to operate than a gas model, what risk managers look at is "will there be an even better option in a year and can we get another year out of our old car?"
So, as long as solar/storage technology improves, it actually inhibits implementation. A company faced with a $1 million retrofit that will save them $100K/year if done today won't make the investment if it is likely that the retrofit will only cost $800K and save them $120K/year if they wait 2 years. From a pure fiscal standpoint, it has nothing to do with existing technologies.
So, businesses hold off on their investments which kills progress on the technology. You need to break the cycle. When government steps in, the risk equation and investment issues can be minimized.
The market will always be shortsighted. It is government's role to clear these hurdles so that progress can occur.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)implementation ?
Spike89
(1,569 posts)IBM competitors (when IBM = mainframe and mini-computers) had an almost impossible task...it wasn't until the cost got low enough (desktop PCs) that the risks were minimal enough that business jumped from big blue and the other big iron manufacturers.
Even though computers did indeed follow the pattern, they eventually broke through because they were a new thing, not just an incrementally better replacement.
Oh, one other point...I think you'll find that the government had a huge role in making computer technology happen--the military was at the forefront and helped bring the costs down to where a few commercial interests were able to jump in.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)When I see awesome stuff like this it makes sad at the same time. Because of the innovation that has been denied in the name of money. My thinking has always been that if someone developed the tech to make fossil fuels obsolete. They would either be killed or WW3 would start.
nxylas
(6,440 posts)The headline refers to providing 100% of the world's energy needs, but the story only refers to 100% of electricity demand. That's a pretty important distinction.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)WWF teamed up with First Solar, 3TIER and Fresh Generation to develop the report. It looks at Indonesia, Madagascar, Mexico, Morocco, South Africa, Turkey, and the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh.
http://wwf.panda.org/wwf_news/?207268/Solar-PV-power-in-harmony-with-nature--new-WWF-report-says-land-requirements-are-insignificant
Which is fine for those regions, which, as the map at the report shows, all have more solar irradiance than anywhere in Europe, the eastern half of the US, or the eastern half of China. And the figure they use for per capita electricity use in 2050 is one third the current US per capita use.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Mars.
First we nuke the moon.
Then we come back and take over.
green for victory
(591 posts)how did THAT happen? Germany?
some of what Germany has built:
Here's what the US built after starting [link:http://newamericancentury.org/balkans.htm|the first PNAC war, Kosovo
]
Germany has surpassed the US in, of all things, Solar Energy.
Shame.
Solar power in Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany
Germany is one of the world's top photovoltaics (PV) installers, with a solar PV capacity as of 2011 of almost 25 gigawatts (GW). As of 31st of October 2012, there were 31.62 GW of photovoltaics connected to the electrical power network.[2] [3] The German solar PV industry increased to about 7.6 GW in 2012, and solar PV provided 18 TWh (billion kilowatt-hours) of electricity in 2011, about 3% of total electricity.[4] Some market analysts expect this could reach 25 percent by 2050.[5] Germany has a goal of producing 35% of electricity from renewable sources by 2020 and 100% by 2050.[6]
A feed-in tariff is the most effective means of developing solar power.[16] It is the same as a power purchase agreement, but is at a much higher rate. As the industry matures, it is reduced and becomes the same as a power purchase agreement. A feed-in tariff allows investors a guaranteed return on investment - a requirement for development. A primary difference between a tax credit and a feed-in tariff is that the cost is born the year of installation with a tax credit, and is spread out over many years with a feed-in tariff. In both cases the incentive cost is distributed over all consumers. This means that the initial cost is very low for a feed-in tariff and very high for a tax credit. In both cases the learning curve reduces the cost of installation, but is not a large contribution to growth, as grid parity is still always reached.[17
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Will Obama keep his promise to install Solar Panels on the White House?
Let's all hold our breath...
green for victory
(591 posts)[IMG][/IMG]
Ruler=1.77 miles
upi402
(16,854 posts)No way to store non-sun period power demand.
Dispatchable energy source is key - ground source geothermal, methane, or pump water uphill during sun and let it fall at night turning micro turbines.
http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates.html
Must see. Bill Gates Ted talk
green for victory
(591 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)Burn the H2 at night. Storing hydrogen efficiently is very difficult, though. You lose some, but that would be true of any storage.
Pumping water uphill would be very inefficient, I would think. Storage batteries would be very expensive and long-term reliability may be a problem.
I am intrigued by the idea of some smart grid tech which stores excess generation automagically.
The best thing is to pour billions of dollars into this and do all of the above and more. I do not think we have a long time before we all realize that this needs to be top priority. We need our top people working on it.
green for victory
(591 posts)Anyone paying attention in the 70's knew that. Then that ridiculous president Reagan weaseled his way into office and of course there was an 8 year void- which became 12 with King George1.
Clinton had no excuse not to go full bore for independence.
But he did less than nothing, while playing with his interns.
So, why is that?
If the US wanted to be energy independent, we would be. We would have started a serious program in the '70s, or the '80s or the 90's or maybe we would start one now.
But there is nothing but crickets. We were surpassed by GERMANY in SOLAR ENERGY.
Shame. Great great shame. And total stupidity, combined with greed and an unwillingness to upset the 100 yr plans of US energy companies, who then donated even more to keep the status quo.,
You are right- we do not have a long time to figure it out. We could start by learning from freakin Germany!!!
upi402
(16,854 posts)I talked to a senior manager at a large utility company in the NW. The Dept. of Homeland Security wont let any old data tranfer happen on their grid. Meter readers have been replaced with smart meters that send signal data for each customer with the new style meter. Grid security is serious business.
I lost hope for smart grid technology interfacing with small net metering, or production metering generation installs.
Grid headroom is a problem, just like peak demand periods are a problem. Windmills stand idle because there is not the headroom to transfer the power generated on existing grid near the Columbia River in WA and OR.
Commercial areas need energy during the day primarily - so that's hopeful.
Residential needs 'non-sun hours' energy. This requires storage or dispatchable energy sources.
We need to do it all, it seems to me. Pumping water up hill when there's too much sun energy for use at night is one option - but lifting any mass and releasing it to allow gravity to harvest the potential energy is the same concept. Hawaii does the water thing, I'm told.
Solar may get cheap if we employ a 'Manhattan Project' type effort with respect to thin metallic film nanoparticle technology. Low cost per watt hour is the key.
Rebates from the utility companies incentivise early adopters in my area. More of that would increase installations. Portable energy for cars is important.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 17, 2013, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)
while tens of thousands of other species and entire ecosystems go extinct due to climate change, some desert reptiles will be doing just fine. And the Oil and coal companies will love it.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Some desert reptiles may be able to migrate, but I doubt it. This paper explains it to a degree. Of course, the technophile in me would love a "let me raze the deserts" full pass, but society doesn't exactly work that way.
And you'd need a massive manufacturing ability, in any event.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)It's unfortunate, but that's the way things stand right now.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Total land mass: 148,300,000 sq km
X .00083 = 123,578.sq km
Mississippi has about 125,433 sq km
So, covering Mississippi with solid solar photovoltaics would serve the WORLD'S 2020 electrical energy needs.
Not that the people there would support such an idea.
hunter
(38,311 posts)... or existing farmland is a vile idea.
We're destroying the planet's ecosphere yet we're planning to "save" it by destroying more of it?
That makes no sense.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)The current scenario that these technologies would completely ERASE include mountaintop removal and the addition of billions of tons of carbon into the atmosphere.
Which is the greater harm, billions of tons of carbon added to an already overtaxed atmosphere, or the loss of traditional use of some land?
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Human civilization may not feel it, at least not right away, since we're pretty good about privatizing the profits of the planet and socializing the costs to the rest of life(we're a pretty good corporation), but as long as we live in physical reality, everything will have a cost.
If we'd be coming out ahead in the carbon in the atmosphere vs. land use issue, what would we be falling behind in?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Maybe you meant to respond to the reply above mine.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)If we're erasing mountaintop removal and the addition of billions of tons of carbon in the atmosphere, there has to be a cost to doing that. The good things about doing it are the easy part. I'm asking what we're giving up. What will the negative be?
The world's energy needs(not really the world's though, more like just human energy needs) is no small thing. We altered our environment when we hunted with sharp sticks. Now we're talking about the ever increasing global energy needs of 7/10/whatever billion of people. There has to be a downside to actually being able to satisfy those needs and wants.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Solar Wind and Hydro all have an environmental cost.
What we gain in contrast to fire/fossil fuel based generation is that we leave the carbon where it belongs, in the lithosphere, and don't send it into the atmosphere.
Additionally, we don't need to go through the literally endless extraction and refinement processes to acquire and deliver fuel to the plants.
There is no fuel.
No fuel required with wind solar hydro.
The further out one does an analysis the more it makes sense, and at some point in the analysis not doing it looks suicidal.
We are presently suicidal.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)moondust
(19,972 posts)Renewable energy leader Denmark has an official goal of 100% renewable by 2050 and it's a pretty small country.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)As the global economy keeps expanding, its need for energy will prompt it to include renewable energy alongside existing fossil fuels, rather than replace them. If renewables become cheap enough, then demand for fossil fuels will drop. That will cause their price to drop, which will make them more attractive to those nations or regions that don't have renewable energy.
The problem is that the global economy is based on energy, and it can expand fast enough to incorporate all the energy that happens to be available.
My latest writing on the subject is over in E&E at http://www.democraticunderground.com/112733540 but here are my conclusions:
Basically I've come to the conclusion that no amount of policy change or renewable energy will slow global warming so long as the world economy remains intact, and continues to function under its current paradigm.
It seems that the paradigm that has trapped us runs like this:
- Nations compete in an unconstrained manner for power on the world stage;
- Wealth = power;
- Real wealth = manufactured goods;
- Manufactured goods embody energy; and
- Fossil fuels provide the largest source of available energy.
As long as that paradigm holds, climate change cannot be stopped. The world will continue to burn all the fossil fuel that'rs required to support the maximum level of economic activity possible.
randome
(34,845 posts)The more the effects of climate change become obvious, the more pressure will be brought to bear on other nations to sign treaties, sign up for massive loans for energy conversion, etc.
We have treaties in place regarding nuclear weapons. Not always effective, of course, but they are there and have had an effect. We can have economic treaties that include incentives for energy conversion, too.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)Colour me skeptical. Really, really skeptical.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)In Stock! Now Shipping!
Excellent for winter heating systems and summer projects. Boil water using only sunlight! Use this box of 10 tubes for your own science or hobby projects, or for building your own powerful solar-powered home heating systems.
...
Each solar evacuated tube soaks up the energy in sunlight, absorbing it into the super-insulated inner tube of their incredible double-wall heating system. Once inside, the heat of the sunlight is trapped inside the inner wall of the inner glass tube, creating a powerful solar thermal collector. Highly-reflective layers of steel, aluminum, and copper trap the infra-red energy of the sunlight, and the nearly perfect vacuum between the inner wall and the outer transparent wall protect the inner tube from heat loss due to convection, just like a high-grade drink thermos. This thermos effect can quickly heat water to boiling temperatures in direct sunlight, and keep the water well over 100 degrees, even over night! Perfect for you DIY, home improvement, solar hot water heater.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)But I guess first we'll have to deal with the Koch brothers before we can even hope to get away from fossil fuel.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)EnviroMission Solar Tower
Location:La Paz, Arizona, United States
Status: Approved/Pending Construction
Chimney use: industrial
Structural type: chimney
Materials: concrete, reinforced
Roof: 2,625ft
Architect: Schlaich Bergermann & Partner
The structure is a solar thermal power station. An early design had a checker-board pattern on the chimney and a flared base.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnviroMission
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http://azremagazine.com/news/building-green/super-solar-tower-rise-desert-floor
***
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/hyperion-energy-solar-tower_n_1265393.html
***
The exit from the PPA does not in any way prevent EnviroMission from resubmitting to any
future SCPPA RFPs for renewable energy, however it does now provide EnviroMission with
additional options to meet those interests expressed by the project financier in the environmental
credits and ownership of the project, that have to this point in time, been outside the scope of the
financial negotiation, Mr Davey said.
http://www.enviromission.com.au/IRM/Company/ShowPage.aspx/PDFs/1379-25959338/ChairmansAddresstoShareholders
***
EnviroMission has received the first
tranche payment of US$200,000 of a US$2,000,000 Solar Tower development license fee
agreement with a Texas based development group.
http://www.enviromission.com.au/EVM/Company/ShowPage.aspx/PDFs/1386-81071105/TexasDevelopmentTransactionUpdateFirstTrancheReceived
***
The project management team, including businesses directly involved in the
delivery of the La Paz Solar Tower, including; Hensel Phelps; Faithful+Gould; Aon;
Arup; Cemex; Terracon; Greenberg Traurig; and, Sprung Construction, continue to
work to schedule in anticipation of confirmation of project finance.
http://www.enviromission.com.au/EVM/Company/ShowPage.aspx/PDFs/1379-25959338/ChairmansAddresstoShareholders
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)farminator3000
(2,117 posts)The Australian company EnviroMission proposes to build the world's tallest solar updraft power plant, or chimney, in Arizona. With a 2,600-foot tall tower that would be the centerpiece of this giant non-polluting power plant, it would be the second tallest structure on the planet (as of 2011) only 100 feet shorter than the Burj Khalifa skyscraper in Dubai UAE.
...The EnviroMission tower is expected to be completed in 2015 and will provide enough electricity to power the equivalent of 200,000 homes. (Scroll to bottom for additional resources)
Other Solar Updraft Tower Examples
Jinshawan Updraft Tower - world record - In December 2010, a solar updraft tower in Jinshawan in Inner Mongolia, China started operation, producing 200-kilowatts of electric power. The 1.38 billion RMB (USD 208 million) project was started in May 2009 and its aim is to build a facility covering 277 hectares and producing 27.5 MW by 2013. The greenhouses will also improve the climate by covering moving sand, restraining sandstorms.
Ciudad Real Torre Solar - There is a proposal to construct a solar updraft tower in Ciudad Real, Spain, entitled Ciudad Real Torre Solar. If built, it would be the first of its kind in the European Union and would stand 750 metres tall nearly twice as tall as the current tallest structure in the EU, the Belmont TV Mast covering an area of 350 hectares (about 865 acres). It is expected to put out 40 MW of electricity.
http://www.solaripedia.com/13/371/5043/solar_updraft_tower_glass_roof_manzanares_spain.html
upi402
(16,854 posts)Progress is on the way.
But this country will give it a pass for the crack money offered to politics by the corporate masters.
Other countries will own us as we stubbornly decline from hegemony.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)This is an exciting project for the U.S. Army, said Garrison Commander Colonel Leo Pullar. A sunny location like New Mexico provides an ideal site for solar power. This project illustrates the U.S. Armys commitment to going green, our focus on operating on net zero energy, and doing what we can to help protect the environment.
http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquerque/blog/morning-edition/2013/01/army-opens-solar-power-system.html
***
http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/01/19/solar-power-installations-hit-record-massachusetts/FcUjPRPC90tydJWgBfSYyI/story.html
The surge in installations more than doubled the amount of solar power in Massachusetts to 194 megawatts enough to power around 30,000 homes, according to the state Department of Energy Resources. Moreover, with a number of projects already scheduled for installation this year, Massachusetts is likely to achieve its goal of having 250 megawatts of solar generating capacity well before a 2017 deadline.
We are pretty hot on solar, said Richard K. Sullivan Jr., the states energy and environmental affairs secretary. I wont even use one of my favorite phrases, cautiously optimistic. We will hit our goal.