Gunsmiths 3D-Print High Capacity Ammo Clips To Thwart Proposed Gun Laws

[NickB79]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/01/14/gunsmiths-3d-print-high-capacity-ammo-clips-to-thwart-proposed-gun-laws/

Five months ago, the group of homemade gun enthusiasts known as Defense Distributed set out to create a lethal firearm that could be downloaded and 3D-printed entirely from scratch, circumventing all gun control laws. But as new gun bills have been proposed in the wake of recent shootings, creating a bootleg weapon with digital pieces may soon be far easier: As simple as printing a spring-loaded plastic box.

Over the past weekend, Defense Distributed successfully 3D-printed and tested an ammunition magazine for an AR semi-automatic rifle, loading and firing 86 rounds from the 30-round clip.

That homemade chunk of curved plastic holds special significance: Between 1994 and 2004, so-called “high capacity magazines” capable of holding more than 10 bullets were banned from sale. And a new gun control bill proposed by California Senator Diane Feinstein would ban those larger ammo clips again. President Obama has also voiced support for the magazine restrictions.

But Defense Distributed founder Cody Wilson says he hopes the group’s recent work demonstrates the futility of that proposed ban in the age of cheap 3D printing.

Holy shit.

[jberryhill]

1. And how many of them are nutball maniacs?

About none.

Some nutbar is not going to 3D print and assemble his or her weapon of convenience when reaching for what's handy.

[NickB79]

2. I'm not so much worried about today

But rather 10 or so years from now.

The technology of 3D printing has been evolving incredibly fast; a few years ago this was still the stuff of sci-fi novels. Today, a 3D printer capable of doing this only costs a few thousand dollars, and the price keeps dropping every year.

If this keeps progressing at this rate, in a decade or so these printers could be as common as DVD players in people's homes. That, combined with open-source software that's already being distributed, makes for some interesting, and disturbing, possibilities in the near future.

[jberryhill]

4. Yes, but

With 2D printers, remember the concerns about counterfeiting?

There are countermeasures.

[NickB79]

6. Isn't the primary countermeasure the material itself?

I mean, you can't just go out and buy the cotton blend used to make legal cash, so the feel is wrong in the hands with most counterfeits.

Is it possible to regulate the plastics used in this printer?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Not applicable here

Much of the tech is open source at this point as well. We cannot put this genie back in the bottle

[spin]

3. If that scared you read this: ...

People line up to legally make untraceable guns

Posted: 11/18/2012
Last Updated: 39 days ago

SAN DIEGO - A long line of people snaked out of a North County machine shop on a recent Sunday. The customers were there to build a gun.

Customers do not get to the machine shop until after they are checked out by Ares Armor in Oceanside. Team 10 promised not to reveal the location of the actual machine shop.

***snip***

It is possible because of the Gun Control Act of 1968. It reads, "an unlicensed individual may make a firearm," but also says it has to be for personal use and cannot be for sale or distribution. ...emphasis added

***snip***

Team 10 purchased a piece of aluminum and watched as it was turned into a receiver for an AR-15. It can take four or five hours to do this, depending on how busy the shop is. Inside that machine shop is a computer-controlled milling machine that cuts out the aluminum.

What Team 10 ended up with was a receiver that can have parts added to it, such as the trigger, the barrel, the stock and the magazine. Team 10 fired the AR-15 at a nearby range when the receiver was finished and it worked just fine.
http://www.10news.com/news/investigations/people-line-up-to-legally-make-untraceable-guns

[NickB79]

5. If I ever won the lottery, I'd buy a CNC machine

And learn how to make my own guns in my workshop like that. My mom, uncle and a good friend from college all used to work CNC machines in a couple of local metal fabrication shops. It was amazing to watch those things work, shaving metal down to 1/1000 of an inch accuracy.

However, I'd be more interested in recreating 100-yr old falling-block single-shot actions in small-bore calibers for target shooting than building assault rifles.

[spin]

7. That could be an interesting project. ...

It would be fun to make a single shot rifle and go to the range and outs shoot a good rifleman with a very expensive factory bought rifle. Of course this might be accomplished in a small machine shop without a CNC machine by a skilled craftsman.

I lack the knowledge and skill to accomplish this.

edited to add:

It would probably take an experienced gun smith and a fairly well equipted machine shop to produce a truly accurate rifle such as I suggested.

[Victor_c3]

10. I've been thinking about getting one for years for woodworking

Depending on the size of what you want to work with, you can pick one up for under $10,000.

That sounds like a lot of money, but if you are a serious woodworking, you easily can spend $3-4,000 on a table saw alone - not to mention what it costs to fill a shop with jointers, planers, a decent band saw, etc...

[moondust]

8. Severe penalties for possession.

Make the penalties for possession similar to those for heroin or child pornography or something.

[spin]

9. There are strong penalties for dealing drugs ...

and yet our nation lost our War on Drugs decades ago.

There are also strong penalties for making and selling moonshine but I believe that I can buy some if I want it. I remember some I had in Mississippi 50 years ago and I sampled a taste of some recently that the person who had it said it was homemade by one of his acquaintances and fairly cheap. Both fit the description of "white lightning." Fortunately I suffered no ill effects as this stuff can be dangerous. Of course I merely tasted it and had no intention of getting drunk.

I prefer dark beer to whiskey although I do occasional enjoy a rum and coke with lemon or lime or some good bourbon on the rocks. My doctor has advised me to have two glasses of red wine when I have dinner and I am gradually developing a taste for it but it's hard.

Why Is Moonshine Against the Law?
You can make your own wine and beer, can't you?
By Michelle Tsai|Posted Thursday, Oct. 18, 2007, at 6:50 PM ET

Two Georgia men pleaded guilty on Wednesday to charges of operating a moonshine still in the Chattahoochee National Forest. One of the bootleggers faces up to 35 years in prison for his crimes: making the brew, selling it, and not paying taxes on the proceeds. Back in college, the Explainer had friends who brewed their own beer, and that wasn't against the law. So why is moonshine still illegal?...emphasis added

Because the liquor is worth more to the government than beer or wine. Uncle Sam takes an excise tax of $2.14 for each 750-milliliter bottle of 80-proof spirits, compared with 21 cents for a bottle of wine (of 14 percent alcohol or less) and 5 cents for a can of beer. No one knows exactly how much money changes hands in the moonshine trade, but it's certainly enough for the missing taxes to make a difference: In 2000, an ATF investigation busted one Virginia store that sold enough raw materials to moonshiners to make 1.4 million gallons of liquor, worth an estimated $19.6 million in lost government revenue. In 2005, almost $5 billion of federal excise taxes on alcohol came from legally produced spirits.

***snip***

Government prosecutors point out that moonshine poses serious health risks, including heavy-metal toxicity. So, how dangerous is it? There's no inspection of the manufacturing process, so quality—and levels of contamination—vary. (There are some informal and imprecise ways to test the purity of hooch: You can light some on fire and check for a blue flame or shake the pint and look for clear liquid drops that dissipate quickly.) Aside from drinking too much and doing something dumb—oh, like attacking somebody with a chain saw and fire extinguisher— the biggest risk is lead poisoning, since a homemade still might consist of car radiators or pipes that were dangerously soldered together. One study in the Annals of Emergency Medicine in September 2003 found that more than half of moonshine drinkers have enough lead in their bloodstream to exceed what the CDC calls a "level of concern."
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/10/why_is_moonshine_against_the_law.html

[baldguy]

14. "We can't eliminate murders, so let's not have any laws againt murder."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Most people agree that murder is a bad thing, there are laws against it, and it still goes on

In the case of magazines, there are a significant part of the governed who do not think it is a bad thing.

No one should expect the level of compliance to be better that the laws against drugs.

[bettyellen]

23. but the vast majority of people still want laws against murder and now, laws regulating guns.

I don't know anyone who's holding them against a standard of being perfectly enforceable that actually does want ANY enforcement at all. Funny how that works.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. No law is perfectly enforceable, but not to acknowledge that even if they pass there will

be significant non-compliance is foolish.

None of the proposed laws require registration of magazines. Magazine also wear out. I could easily see clandestine magazine manufacturing going on and it would be hard to prove they were new

[bettyellen]

27. the fact that existing laws were not well enforced has also been a big part of the conversation...

as well as dealing with details such as magazines, gun capabilities, etc.
I'm just saying arguing against them because they will not be perfectly enforced is a non starter. It's kind of a given, nothing is ever perfect.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. There are degrees of adherence and it matters

Look at the CA. The amount of technical workarounds of their AWB is tremendous.

[baldguy]

37. Your post reminds me of that quote by Voltaire.

About believing absurdities & committing atrocities.

[cali]

11. Rep Israel is introducing legislation

to ban these atrocities.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/futureoftech/us-representative-calls-outlawing-3-d-printed-gun-magazines-1B8035746

[hobbit709]

13. That will stop maybe 1% of the people doing this on a good day.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. He is a Luddite if he thinks that will work

[hobbit709]

12. If the Afghans were able to hand hammer AK-47 parts in the mountains when fighting the Soviets.

It wouldn't be hard for someone to make their own..
As far as the printers go, once the technology genie is out of the bottle you can't stuff it back in.

[jmg257]

15. Not sure how this circumvents gun control laws. If they are illegal they are illegal..

to manufacture, possess, transfer...

Laws aren't very futile if you consider/are going to jail just to have a hi-cap mag or 3.

[1-Old-Man]

18. One question .... has anyone here ever been in the same room as a 3D printer?

People act like you can buy one of these things, a 3D printer, at any Wal Mart. Also, did you know there is a big long spring inside of every gun clip? How good is that powder at creating precise springs with precise tension?

My point is that this entire posting is nonsense. No one is making any such thing as illegal clips with 3D printers for a number of reasons. First no one has one of the printers, second because the printers would be unable to make a functioning clip, and third because high capacity clips are readily available today at very low prices and seeing as how there are litterly millions of them available they certainly will not be going away or replaced with 'powder' versions. It simply is not happening and will not happen.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. I have...also mentored students working in that area

Magazines are simple to make. Basement operations based on current tech is quite easy. 3D printers will make it even easier.

Will it happen is a better question. My take is that if we do not confiscate the weapons that need them, it will. Magazines wear out. They are designed to be disposable. If the firearms that need them are still in legal circulation, it is reasonable to expect that magazines will be made for them.

[Democracyinkind]

29. I think reality has overtaken your imagination in the last couple of years.

Almost nothing of what you wrote in your post is true.

1- Wrong. Allot of people have these printers - avaailable online for years, rapidly evolving tech that is fully functional at this time. Much of the cutting edge stuff, though, comes from private initiatives or universities that mostly use their own tech. You can deny this as long as you want; it is an observable fact that these machines are out there, fully operational. If the evolution of this tech will go on like it has the last couple of years... Well, let's say we're in for some major changes in the way that we produce and consume stuff. Read up on this shit - we are witnesses to something big here. Deny it all you want - you've got nothing on those thousands of google results and all those people out there actually doing these kinds of things.

2- Wrong. These printers are now capable of building fully functioning machine parts out of plastics and metals. With time there will be even more uses: Printing of glass-like materials, viscous materials, etc.

http://www.gizmag.com/first-3d-printed-firearm/23473/

If you can print a freakin' gun, you might wanna be more open to the possibility that they're now able to print clips. A complete rifle does seem a bit more complex than a simple clip. Just take a look at these pics for futher examples:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affordable-professional-3d-printer

http://www.gizmag.com/3d-printing-rockets-nasa-sls/24909/

http://www.technewsdaily.com/6116-army-3d-printing-battlefield.html

3- True. As long as 3d printers have not yet out-arbitraged conventional mass production, 3d printing of clips will remain a marginal issue. That could change very rapidly though when a ban is instated (no way of controlling all 3d printing activity) or when centralized mass production has come to a halt (not something that I'm expecting anytime soon).

Deny this all you want. "It" is happening - therefore "it" will continue to happen. People had similiar opinions when they first heard about the steam engine. Yet just a couple of years later...

[baldguy]

38. $500 at Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Toolworks-7x12-Printer-Milling/dp/B006MOZ7P6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1358814589&sr=8-4&keywords=3D+printer

And they're just going to get cheaper.

[SayWut]

19. Now all someone has to do is start mass producing magazine springs.

[derby378]

21. Or simply recycle the springs from older magazines

I've heard that a lot of the GI 5.56mm magazines that wound up on the surplus tables of gun shows are fairly flimsy and easily dentable, because some bean-counter at the Pentagon figured each magazine would be used only once and then discarded. If this is true, it probably wouldn't be too much effort to recycle the needed parts out of the old and use them to build another magazine with a brand new case.

[Democracyinkind]

30. If only, hu?

http://www.rapidreadytech.com/2012/04/3d-printed-spring-exceeds-traditional-manufacturing/

I am astonished by the amount of denial presented in this thread.

[SayWut]

36. How close is that technology to implementation?

More importantly, would the materials and equipment be cost efficient for the home printer, DIY'er market?

Does it require a different generation of 3d printers, or are currently available models sufficient?

I can recall a number of years ago when talks of ceramic engines were being hyped, but still no breakthroughs have materialized.

Gun owners can be a finicky bunch. When plastic/polymer furniture replaced traditional wood stocks (as in the AR-15 and M-16 platform), there was a degree of mistrust and mockery. Same thing with plastic magazines. There were some problems at first with proper fitting and reliability. One of the more notorious examples was with certain Thermold magazines for the AR15/M16, aka, "Thermelts"

"Canadian Thermold 30s
-------
The Canadian military licensed the Thermold design, but did not use Zytel as the polymer, using a less expensive plastic as a substitute.
This was not a wise decision, and the Canadian military had problems as a result. The most famous problem was the feed lips melting when their ARs were fired for extended periods on full auto (especially with blanks), leading the Canadians to dub the magazines "Thermelts". The other common problem was the mags splitting or cracking in cold temperatures or when dropped. After Desert Storm, the Canadian military changed to USGI aluminum mags, which are now standard issue."

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p15-rifle/237871-whats-story-thermold-mags.html

Polymer Orolite magazines gained a reputation for poor or tight fitting in certain manufacturers AR-15's.

The same can be said of polymer receivers and frames for firearms; most notably, Glock.
Despite being around for some 25+ years now, many gun owners are still distrustful, or
leery of Glock products.

It took some time and proven reliability through field use and testing before both polymer/plastic mags and firearms became accepted by the firearms community.

I would put these AM/3d springs in the same category. Even if they were rolled out on the market today, it would take some time before the firearms community would embrace them,
especially if a time proven and customary technology like traditional steel springs are still cheap and plentiful.

[ellisonz]

20. This makes some people happy...

...those people are sick.

[jpak]

22. Charge them with a felony - take away their guns

problem solved

yup

[rrneck]

28. Magazines are no big deal.

They have already tried to make an AR lower using the same process and it broke after a few rounds. Sooner or later someone will get around to designing a gun around the 3D printing material rather than trying to print a gun designed to be made of metal. It's just a matter of time.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. I thought is was several hundred rounds

[rrneck]

33. Coulda been. I haven't been keeping up. nt

[XRubicon]

34. Ok with me as long as they dont mind becoming criminals. nt

[Hoyt]

35. We all know that gun owners are not as law-abiding as they like us to believe, but

if the law bans hi-capacity mags, at least we can turn in our loud-mouthed gun loving neighbors when they print one off (or otherwise violate the law).

I suspect just about anyone handy with metal could fashion a high-capacity magazine. Hopefully any new law will have significant penalties for doing so.