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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsStevie Wonder says he will go buy a gun to show the ridiculousness of the laws!!
That's awesome. Stevie Wonder was just interviewed by Piers Morgan at the inaguration. He said he told a friend, hey why don't you take me to the gun store and i'll buy a gun so people can see how easy it is.
Thanks Stevie for your music, your patriotism, and mostly your sense of humor.
Systematic Chaos
(8,601 posts)muntrv
(14,505 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)...in which he physically takes possession of it at least 10 days later.
Probably way too dull for most peoples' attention spans.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)ETA I sincerely hope he goes through with it. He may be in for a few surprises.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)And back at you.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)...unless he or she has a Federal Firearms License.
If his point is to show how "easy" it is to buy a gun in California, he's in for a few surprises. It's actually a whole lot easier to buy a car here than to buy a gun, if you have cash to pay for it.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)but it does show that we need a country wide standard, in both gun sales and elections
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)...just to make it a hassle to buy a firearm rather than advancing the cause of public safety.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)that all firearms sales require a background check. That, and toughen the penalties on black marketing of guns.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)The national background check system, called NICS, is available only to gun dealers. Collectors and plain old people who have an old gun to sell can't use it.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)To do these checks or lose their license. Of course, a fee should be charged to the sellers to cover the dealers cost.
Kennah
(14,234 posts)A gun dealer is subject to federal laws, and any applicable state laws, whether they sell at their shop, over the Internet (which is a very prolonged event when the gun crosses state lines), over their kitchen table, or at a gunshow.
Sidenote: Before Ebay banned firearms from their site, back in 1998, I bought a rifle over Ebay. Must have taken close to 2 months to get the gun. Seller had to transfer it to his FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee) there in his home state, the FFL transferred it to my local FFL, then the FFL transferred it to me.
I think the key agenda item, that has a lot of widespread support including RW Governors and Legislators, is background checks on private sales. People get all hung up on gun shows, but it's been my experience that 90% or more of sellers at gun shows are licensed dealers. However, if one focuses on gun shows, it ignores the reality that private sales can occur ANYWHERE without a background check, unless there is state law forbidding it.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)if two private individuals decide to make a deal, the have to go to a licensed dealer to do the background check before the transaction.
Kennah
(14,234 posts)The State of Maryland requires just such a check on private sales of handguns, but one can also go to any Maryland State Police barracks, and they will perform the background check.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)than using dealers. The cops should already be set up for it.
Response to slackmaster (Reply #26)
williamc1967txlib This message was self-deleted by its author.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)or, to rephrase, a cali resident can get a gun in the majority of states without showing ID.
and yes, craigslist in CA has rules about guns- but someone selling a (legal) $500 dollar piece of an ar-15 online CERTAINLY knows where to get the rest of the gun, and will tell you in a parking lot.
there are probably plenty of idiots who wouldn't even recognize stevie, too. or notice his lack of sight.
plus, he was in DC, so, a short cab ride-
Virginia A permit is not required to purchase a firearm. A permit issued by a circuit court is needed to carry a concealed handgun.
people in parking lots don't check ID.
stevie could get one in less than 12 hours even in Cali.
because the laws aren't good enough even in cali
Oregon Oregon does not require a permit to purchase firearms but does require a license to carry a concealed weapon.
Nevada State law does not require a permit to purchase firearms. A permit is required to carry a concealed firearm.
Arizona Arizona does not require a permit to purchase firearms. Carrying a concealed weapon requires a permit.
http://swampland.time.com/2013/01/17/states-take-action/
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)...do the same thing in any neighborhood in the Los Angeles area? I'm sure you could find a criminal willing to sell you a black market gun anywhere from Whittier to Santa Monica or Beverly Hills.
You're talking about private-party sales of used firearms. Gun dealers in all states have to obey not only federal laws, but applicable laws of every state. No person can legally buy a handgun from anyone in other than his or her state of residence.
Some states allow residents of adjacent states to purchase rifles or shotguns. However, both states have to allow the transaction, and California does not.
stevie could get one in less than 12 hours even in Cali.
because the laws aren't good enough even in cali
What would you change in existing California law to make it "good enough?" We already have full registration of handguns, universal background checks on all transfers, extraordinary requirements for proof of residence, proof of safe handling, safe storage, and a waiting period.
How hard would you make it for a person to exercise the right to acquire a weapon?
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)In Florida, you can go ahead and buy, sell, and trade anythingas long as its not an illegal weapon, he said. You can just find somebody or something that you like, work out a deal with him, meet them in a local parking lot, do a third-grade trade with some money and a gun. Nothing else needed. Alaska, Arizona, and Vermont are similarly lenient when it comes to these types of transactions.
http://www.vice.com/read/guns-in-the-sun-004469-v19n12
one might go to AZ to get a bigger, nastier gun cheaper, for instance.
gun dealers obey ffl? not on this planet:
In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.
The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html
that ^^^ is probably because the batf still fills out forms BY HAND, thanks to the NRA, among other things.
improvements-
While federal background checks are required to buy a gun from a licensed dealer, the law does not cover sales at gun shows or among private sellers.
The letter was posted on the agency's website hours after President Barack Obama asked Congress to close legal loopholes that allow about 40 percent of gun sales to be done without background checks.
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_22386626/atf-urges-background-checks-private-gun-sales?source=pkg
***
SB 249 is dead. And thats great news for Second Amendment advocates in the state of California.
The bill, introduced by State Senator Leland Yee, sought to make Californias gun control laws more restrictive by prohibiting semi-automatic firearms with easily changeable magazines.
http://www.humanevents.com/2012/08/21/shocker-gun-laws-fail-to-pass-in-california/
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)You've contradicted yourself here. If you buy a gun at a gun show from a licensed dealer, a background check is required. If you edit out "at gun shows or" then your sentence would be correct, but only for federal law.
Private-party transfers are regulated in California, and Stevie Wonder would be limited to making a purchase in the state if he wishes to stay in compliance with the law, so as to point out its ridiculousness. You don't point out ridiculousness of the law by breaking it - You show its ridiculousness by OBEYING it.
SB 249 is dead. And thats great news for Second Amendment advocates in the state of California.
The bill, introduced by State Senator Leland Yee, sought to make Californias gun control laws more restrictive by prohibiting semi-automatic firearms with easily changeable magazines.
http://www.humanevents.com/2012/08/21/shocker-gun-laws-fail-to-pass-in-california/
Bullet-button type rifles can have their magazines unloaded with a simple tool such as a round of ammunition. That has been a standard way of unloading firearms for well over 100 years. For safety, there MUST be an expedient way of removing live rounds from a firearm without cycling them through the chamber, which presents a risk of an unintended discharge.
SB 249 would have resulted in weapons that lack this basic safety feature. It was a stupid bill and deserved to fail. Senator Yee doesn't have a clue what he's doing. That's why his bill got shut down.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)it doesn't really say where he's going to go buy the gun in the OP- i'm assuming at the inauguration means DC.
not important.
look at the chart (2nd link) and tell me gun laws even start to approach sanity. CA and NY are the only states that come close.
and Stevie could still walk into a store and buy one- is there a law against blind people having guns?
the PBS link is not a contradiction-
Unfortunately, current federal law requires criminal background checks only for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for just 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not engaged in the business of selling firearms to sell guns without a licenseand without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States change hands without a background check.
Though commonly referred to as the Gun Show Loophole, the private sales described above include guns sold at gun shows, through classified newspaper ads, the Internet, and between individuals virtually anywhere.
http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campaigns/gun-show-loophole
***
http://swampland.time.com/2013/01/17/states-take-action/
***
so if the guy's CA law sucked they should make a better one, like in NY- 7 round mags. period. buyback all the bigger ones. no reason for them at all.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)He owns cars. Why shouldn't he be able to buy guns as well?
BTW, I suspect that if he actually does try to buy a gun in a gun store in California, he's going to have a hard time providing adequate proof of residence. Do you think he has a state-issued ID and two other documents establishing residence, all in his real legal name? I doubt it. Wealthy people typically have their assets all vested in the name of an LLC or trust. The probability that he has a gas and electric bill in his real name is slim to none.
so if the guy's CA law sucked they should make a better one, like in NY- 7 round mags. period. buyback all the bigger ones. no reason for them at all.
Why do police officers in California carry bigger ones?
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)you are making less sense than before
rich people can't buy guns in CA?
this is one place the guns/cars thing is interesting-
i'm going to go out on a limb, and guess that Mr. Wonder doesn't have a CA driver's license. i believe there is a chart you have to read.
resisdence? wha? i'm also going to guess he has a state ID, to buy booze and get into clubs. there are people who have never heard of him, sadly enough.
he PROBABLY has a birth certificate and SS# too. (i'm sure he has connections on the birth cert. thing. that was a joke)
i think his point was, he'd have to get a friend to drive him to a wal-mart in almost any state, where he could buy a gun easily.
blind people COLLECT GUNS. they shoot in the paralympics.
they maybe should be allowed to use them in self defense IN THEIR HOMES, but that is approaching insanity.
i think the answer to why cops have bigger guns is fairly self-explanatory. like protecting themselves and others.
from the fact that there are way too many guns
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)A firearm dealer has told me that he has had to deny sales to people because they couldn't produce the documents required to prove residence in the state.
i think his point was, he'd have to get a friend to drive him to a wal-mart in almost any state, where he could buy a gun easily.
If that was his point, he was mistaken.
i think the answer to why cops have bigger guns is fairly self-explanatory. like protecting themselves and others.
Many people who are not police officers own firearms for defense of themselves and their families.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)see#117
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)The people who are doing unlawful transactions will continue to do so as long as the laws are not effectively enforced.
Adding more layers of laws won't change that.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)explain ^^^ that.
making laws that work instead of BS nra-bribed loophole crap will certainly work
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)Cops SHOULD ABSOLUTELY have better arms. Anyone who thinks otherwise wants to turn this country into another Somalia.
You can't have a nation of laws if anyone can be better armed than law enforcement. It's not self-explanatory; it's self-evident. Well, to anyone but someone in the grip of the NRA.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)...wants to turn this country into literally a police state.
The self-defense needs of non-police are just as important as the self-defense needs of police, unless the purpose of police is to control the general public.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)1. Otherwise you put the police in an arms race they can't win. I don't know how you come up with the idea that's a good thing.
2. Like it or not, and I get the feeling you guys don't, this is a legitimately elected republic, from the President all the way down to your local mayor and sheriff. The vast majority of the general public wants to see that legitimate government able to enforce the laws it promulgates. This really ain't Somalia, you know.
LeftInTX
(25,126 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)ADA applies to gun ranges too.
hack89
(39,171 posts)SH2 Shooters requiring a gun support to shoot
SH3 Blind Shooters (sights seek sound-emitting targets)
Sub-classifications A, B and C define wheelchair backrest height depending on back and pelvic strength per athlete.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paralympic_shooting
The things I learn through DU.
On edit: The International Blind Sports Federation has a shooting website
http://www.ibsa.es/eng/deportes/shooting/presentacion.htm
okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)sport for the blind. Ofcourse i'm also thinking that all those sight impaired athletes seem to be able to train, assemble and compete without shooting any one nearby. Gun shows, not so much.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)golf course. Used sound cues. Won the money of those who said 'ha ha, you want to golf with us? Sure!'.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)aikoaiko
(34,162 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)the devil
(42 posts)The young man stealing the guitar in this film went on to play Argyle, the limo driver from Die Hard.
Blues Brothers...one of my favorite movies.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)BigAnth
(320 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Love you Steveland!
Response to okaawhatever (Original post)
slackmaster This message was self-deleted by its author.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)As long as he's in his state of residence, which I believe is California.
He may be surprised at the amount of paperwork that's required - We have both federal and state forms that have to be completed and signed. He'll need help with all of that - There are no Braille versions AFAIK.
In addition to a state-issued ID card, he'll need two additional documents to establish that he lives in the state. For example, a vehicle registration and a utility bill. He does own vehicles.
Along with the firearm he will be required to either buy a state-approved trigger lock, or provide evidence that he owns a state-approved firearm storage device.
If he wants a handgun, he'll have to take and pass the California Handgun Safety Certificate test, and pay the fee for that. I don't believe that there is a Braille version available, so he'd probably get the questions and answers read to him.
He'll also have to demonstrate that he knows how to unload the weapon that he buys. He's a very intelligent man and has sensitive hands. I think he might be able to pull that off with some coaching.
He may also be surprised that he'll have to wait 10 days to pick up the firearm.
I suspect that when he made that remark on Piers' show he didn't really understand what he was in for. I hope he follows through and comments honestly about the experience.
okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)and take it onto a college campus. Clearly CA has gone a little red tape crazed but it is a rare exception.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)I'm assuming that Stevie Wonder has no criminal record, and that he wouldn't violate the law to make a point.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)he didn't say where he was when he was 'talking to his friend'
in truth, he could have ridden from the inauguration in Obama's limo to a wal mart in VA and the President could have stood there and watched him buy a hunting rifle.
really. that would be the easiest way. and a good example of how mixed up gun laws are.
or, he could meet somebody from craigslist in a parking lot in any state, which is the real problem.
you are being disingenuous by saying 'if everybody obeyed the law, there wouldn't be a problem'
as if that has happened yet in the history of humanity...
if he didn't want to wait 10 days in CA, he could zip over to Vegas, not a long drive.
you don't seem too understand Stevie's point, it seems.
he is saying 'i could go buy a gun anytime i want. easily.'
which is odd. are you really saying you are ok with blind people carrying guns around? in public?
in the paralympics they aim at sounds...not really the best self-defense technique...
i myself am legally blind w/o glasses, and trying to shoot w/o them them would be berzerk.
i couldn't drive faster than 5 mph w/o, so shooting- definitely a no-go.
everything past 6 inches is a blur- no possible way to aim unless i put my nose on a pistol grip- get it?
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)It's actually an Olympic event -- I've seen it on TV.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)even though they can easily.
which is a little weird, i'd say.
it is pretty cool (as a sport), they shoot at sounds. like Daredevil, kinda...
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)As long as they follow all state and Federal laws when purchasing. I don't think any states nixes anyone blind or deaf from owning a firearm.
I know! It was really interesting to watch. Daredevil is a good analogy.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/nyregion/blind-new-jersey-man-challenged-again-on-guns.html
i guess Daredevil was right, wow... (first blind guy to get a carry permit in usa)
http://www.careymcwilliams.com/faq.htm
What is facial vision and do all blind people have it?
Facial vision is a scientifically proven way that blind people use sound waves to detect objects in their paths at a distance. It is something on the order of echolocation that bats and whales use, but is far less developed in humans. Some, not all, blind people have this sense and the degree that they have it varies from person-to-person. I myself can gage the size of the object and its range to a certain degree as sound waves bounce off my facial muscles. This can make it appear as if I have some vision, but any doctor will tell you that I am totally blind.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10296505/ns/msnbc-the_ed_show/t/blind-marksman-upset-nds-lax-gun-laws/#.UP9Lk2d8NoE
msnbc.com
updated 12/2/2005 1:09:11 PM ET
Five years ago, Carey McWilliams became the first completely blind person ever to obtain a concealed weapons permit in this country. McWilliams passed the required written and shooting tests in his home state of North Dakota.
CARLSON: Well, it sounds, you know, indisputable that you passed the test, but if you cant see the target, how do you know you are hitting the target and not a crowd of people, say?
MCWILLIAMS: Well, its the same way that snipers in the military work. Anti-sniper patrols are, of course, going to try to get a sniper who wants to remain hidden to pick off soldiers, so, therefore, they have to operate guns, and so forth, without being able to see their target. And the way I do it is I use body positioning and gravity, which are always constant to everybody. And then I also use basic sound, if I can get it, would be fine, but I visualize the target in my mind, and I can actually see it then in front of my eyes, and I visualize where the gun is in relation to the target. And with that, I was able to place 10 out of 10 in a half-silhouette from seven yards away.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)No, that is not the truth. If he tried to buy a rifle at Wal Mart, the transaction would have been stopped when the sporting goods counter person asked for his ID, or when he got the question on the federal paperwork about his state of residence.
Are you suggesting that Stevie Wonder was saying he would be willing to violate both state and federal laws in order to demonstrate some deficiency in the laws?
are you really saying you are ok with blind people carrying guns around? in public?
Please try to stay on topic, farminator3000. The subject is buying guns legally, not carrying them in public, not buying them illegally.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)look at the chart-
VA- no background check, no license req. for dealer, no reg. with LE, no waiting period, no AWB
both open AND concealed carry.
oh, but look how restrcitive VA is, you apparently can't shoot anyone you want you vaguely threatens you on the street
since when is VA a communist state?
so you are ok with any blind person buying a gun at any time?
including those blinded with rage, jealously or insanity?
get it?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)...a rifle at Wal Mart.
This conversation is too ridiculous to pursue. After watching the video I think Stevie Wonder was blowing smoke. He has no intention of attempting to acquire a firearm.
But if he did try to do so legally, the results would not be what he or most people expect.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)stevie could walk into a wal mart or gas station or barber shop (yes he's almost bald) in VA and buy a gun
without an ID.
and fed ex it to himself in CA, without breaking laws.
too bad, huh?
frankly, you being responsible doesn't help when there are 2 criminals for every three non-crims buying guns.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)If he bought a used gun from a private seller at a gas station or barber shop in ANY state including California, he would be committing a crime.
and fed ex it to himself in CA, without breaking laws.
Your ignorance on this subject is stunning, but I'll give you kudos for clinging to it so forcefully.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)and explain how gun laws are even in existence in the majority of states.
oh, sure there's a law somewhere and nobody EVER breaks laws.
certainly not every 45 minutes when someone gets KILLED BY A GUN every day...
i think you are hurting your 'cause' at this point.
stevie has way more cred than you.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)That's where it gets really weird.
stevie has way more cred than you.
Stevie was blowing smoke. He doesn't know what's legal, and he's not going to try to buy a gun.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)where people are getting blown away every 45 minutes and you don't seem to think it sucks,
is the weird part.
of course he isn't buying a gun- don't be obtuse.
his point is 'I AM BLIND> I CAN BUY A GUN EASILY> WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH INEFFECTIVE GUN LAWS.'
which is true, according to the majority of people. and a minority of nra members, even.
"he doesn't know what's legal'
The Moment for Action on Guns
New York Times-Jan 14, 2013
Requiring background checks at gun shows, parking-lot sales and Web sites would reduce the cash-and-carry anonymity of millions of gun ...
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)He's going to have some problems filling out the paperwork, providing the required documentation, and passing the California Handgun Safety Certificate test.
But I'm afraid it's moot, because he's not really going to try. I wish he would.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)why, i have no idea.
for the 3rd or more time CA has nothing to do with it. he didn't say where he 'might' buy a gun.
like i said, he could have gone to VA right after he said it and had one in a couple of hours.
also, he ran for mayor of detroit, probably has a house in NY or FL, too, so whatever
http://famousdaily.com/history/stevie-wonder-runs-for-mayor-detroit.html
you are cherry picking CA, because it has the 'best' gun laws.
but anyone can drive to vegas or AZ from LA, so whatever
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Not legally. A California resident cannot legally buy a firearm from any person in Virginia.
you are cherry picking CA, because it has the 'best' gun laws.
No, I brought California into the mix because Stevie Wonder is a resident of the state of California. That has a major influence over what he can and cannot do LEGALLY.
If Stevie Wonder wants to show how easily it would be for HIM, not some random person, to acquire a firearm LEGALLY, he'll have to do so LEGALLY. A person's state of residence matters. Stevie Wonder's comment wasn't about how easy it would be for some hypothetical person somewhere to acquire a firearm - It was about how easy it would be for HIM to acquire one. That is based on his own words, in the interview.
I think it would be very interesting for all parties to this discussion to see what would happen if Stevie Wonder were to do that. I HOPE HE DOES!
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)so what if you need to show an ID at an HONEST dealer.
gun dealers also break laws.
in VA-
Pay a small processing fee if you are a Virginia resident. The fee is slightly higher for out-of-state residents.
so, whatever.
stevie said ZERO about legal or illegal. he said 'i'm blind, and i can go buy a gun really easily'
he said ZERO about geography.
apparently where you live ONLY MATTERS for handguns and machine guns(see below), so get it together, please.
i mean, here i am, i don't give a flying f about your interpretation of the laws or 2nd amendment, or protecting guns, and i'm explaining the laws to you, the 'responsible' one.
what is your motivation for trying to hide the FACT that guns laws are too weak?
and the ridiculous idea that people don't try to avoid laws for selfish reasons? like money?
why don't you start a petition on the WH site for the Prez to take stevie gun shopping if you are so excited about it?
from a PA gun forum-
Under federal law, you can buy a shotgun or rifle at a FFl Dealer in any state, following that federal and state laws.
Handguns may be purchased, but must be shipped back to a FFL dealer in your own state, and transferred to you via your home state law.
NFA items have to be trasferred to a dealer in your own state for transfer to you.
Under no circumstances is it legal to purchase/sell any handgun/rifle/shotgun face to face from a resident of any other state without involving a FFL in the buyers home state.
thats how it works.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)I never had to work in California so I didn't know the laws there. I'm impressed. Especially with the trigger lock or storage device part. Out of curiosity, which do you prefer and why?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Trigger locks can be defeated easily, and do nothing to prevent theft or loss due to fire.
It's a no-brainer to me, if you have a place to put a safe.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)That's my preference for people to use as well. It keeps children safe from the firearms and keeps the firearms from being stolen, which is equally as important.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)I watched a video in my CCW class where they showed children getting them off guns in literally seconds.* Guns need to be stored in a locked safe/case.
*The point the instructor wanted people to get was: get a safe, and keep all guns away from kids.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)When I had one in South Dakota "can you see?" was not a question on the form!
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Some people who are legally blind (which is a tax term, not a medical one) have.
Blind doesn't always mean profoundly blind (which is a medical term.)
krispos42
(49,445 posts)I can read the print in a book maybe 8 inches in front of my eyeballs, but no further.
But with my contacts, I'm 20/20.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Without correction it's close to the threshold of legal blindness. It's scary, but that's what I've put up with my whole life.
I'll turn 55 in 13 days.
I really hope Stevie Wonder goes through with it.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Although it wasn't until high school that my eyes really turned to shit and I began wearing contacts as an alternative to the coke-bottle thickness glasses I had otherwise.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Unless it's a muzzle-loading black powder weapon.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)What are the odds of that?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)At least for a while.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Hell, we added silencers to the 'legal' list last year.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)All the restrictions that apply to the gun stores, apply to FFL's that would make the transfer from an internet purchase.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)you are doing the same thing as slackmeister
so either there is someone checking every sale on the internet or nobody would ever break a law?
which one?
i saw somewhere that~25% of guns used in crime come from 1% of LICENSED dealers.
i guess the other 75% come from those people you don't seem to think exist?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)If you buy a firearm online and you are not yourself a licensee, you have to have the firearm shipped to a licensee in your state.
That person, that dealer, will go through all the paperwork and procedures required by state and federal law.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)you can't just make stuff up.
too serious an issue
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)There might be an enforcement problem, but we have no information at hand about how big of a problem it really is. Or if it even really exists.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)look at the chart- 2 states have anything near reasonable laws.
period.
less people get shot in states with more laws.
the BATF fills out forms BY HAND (because of the nra) and you're idea is 'monitor the internet'
really?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)I've posted nothing of the kind.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)so you are saying do something,
or don't do anything?
you seem to be implying that everything is OK, when it obvioulsy isn't, if harvard, the batf, and the president, to name a few, see some issues to address
and who is WE, exactly?
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)I have completed such a transaction, They will only ship to an FFL with a copy of license on file and you must then complete background check and transfer at the receiving dealer.
from the site
Below you will find offers from the 7 closest* Gun Genie Retailers. Be sure to consider store location, previous good experience, special promotions as well as the sales price offered. Simply click "ACCEPT OFFER" and we will arrange the shipment of this firearm to the selected retailer.
(Additional fees include all shipping fees to the retailer, applicable state/local background check fees, and other processing fees.)
this also applies to lower receivers as that is what is serial numbered and tracked as the gun.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If it crosses state lines, yes, it must go through an FFL, or someone is breaking the law. Stevie Wonder's apparent point is that it is not illegal for him to purchase a firearm. So, this is completely uninteresting to this thread. Yes, it is possible someone could buy a gun online illegally without it going through an FFL, just like it is possible to buy a gun, in some cases, from a dealer without a proper background check. In both cases, a law was broken. Actually, several. Some of them felonies.
The BATFE does monitor online sales for this reason, and monitoring them is pretty easy to do. (keeping tabs on gunbroker and whatnot)
A lot of that 75% comes from smaller dealers, either used directly by the purchaser in a new crime, or transferred to a criminal by the purchaser. It can also be lost or stolen. Guns do get stolen. They are small, high value, and easy to move, so they are priority targets right up there with jewelry and electronics.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)"Under current law, there's a gaping Internet loophole which enables gun websites to facilitate illegal gun sales that result in gun crimes and gun deaths," said Jonathan Lowy, director of the Legal Action Project at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence and a lawyer representing Vesel's family. "Felons, the dangerously mentally ill and domestic-violence abusers can buy guns, no questions asked."
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Survivors-suit-targets-online-gun-sales-4150517.php
Craigslist, eBay, Amazon.com and Google prohibit listing guns for sale, according to Vesel's complaint.
there's 4 that do, how many are there that DON'T? 40? 400?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)So there are four sites that don't deal in guns at all. Ok, that's entirely separate from your other point.
For those sites that DO sell firearms, or facilitate the sale of firearms, there are legal requirements for direct FFL transfers. Why would you even bring up Ebay as an example? Ebay won't send something to an FFL because they don't allow firearm sales AT ALL.
What happened on that Armslist sale, the owner of the firearm committed at least 2 felonies, and withdrew the gun from sale on Armslist, to sell it directly (private transfer, KNOWINGLY to an ineligible recipient) to the purchaser. Had the purchase been completed THROUGH Armslist, it would have been sent to an FFL, and the FLL would have conducted the check, and rejected the purchaser.
They are not "buying guns no questions asked", the Brady flack is full of shit. There WERE questions asked, and that led to the seller abrogating the controlled, law abiding sale, and going 'back alley' instead/, outside of Armslist, as it were. All illegal from stem to stern, and he's in jail now.
What is Armslist supposed to do? Report all canceled sales to the BATFE for follow up? The BATFE doesn't even follow up when someone swears to be an eligible recipient, tries to buy a gun, and fails the background check due to felony conviction. That's a straight up perjury charge, with evidence signed by the criminal committing the crime, and they do fuck-all with that.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)1st page of google-
How to Buy a Gun Online - YouTube
www.xxxxxxxxx.com presents: How to purchase a firearm online, an easy step by step process ...
Guns for Sale - Online Gun Auction - Buy Guns at xxxxxx
Find guns for sale at xxxxxx.com, the world's largest online gun auction. At xxxxx.com, you can sell and buy guns such as shotguns, pistols, rifles from ...
xxxxx- How To Buy a Gun Online
www.xxxxn.com/.../How-To-Buy-A-Gun-Online-Page-1....
So you want to buy a gun online? You're in luck! There are dozens of websites out there prepared to supply you with whatever gun you're looking for. Whether ...
hunting.about.com ... Shop For Your Gear Shop: Guns & Such
Some tips and advice on buying a gun online, from someone who's been there and done it. It sometimes makes a lot of sense to buy a gun on the Web.
Buying a Ton of Guns on the Internet Is Cheap, Legal, and ...
Jul 26, 2012 If you're a terrorist, a guerrilla, or are aspiring toward either,XXXXXXX might be your gun depot of choice. But for anyone not on the ...
Discount Guns for Sale - xxxxxx
wwwxxxxxxxm/
We have guns for sale at xxxxxxx.com. Please ... Customers Currently Online ... It may be on display and is available for immediate purchase and pick-up.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It is the same as a store even for private transfers that cross state lines.
I didn't say you couldn't buy guns online. I said the requirements are the same. And they are PRECISELY the same.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)If you know someone who's willing to privately sell you a gunsomeone without any kind of license to deal, whatsoeverthat's even easier in almost every state. "Federal law only requires persons who are "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms to be licensed," explains Van Houten. "Private sellers are not subject to the federal laws regulating gun dealers." A recent NYC government report cited the same fact before stating that private online sales were rampant and dangerous:
Only licensed gun dealers, also known as federal firearms licensees (FFLs), are required to conduct checks and keep paperwork on buyers. Because private sellers
individuals who are not "engaged in the business" of selling firearms but who make "occasional sales" from private collections are presumed to be hobbyists, they have no obligation to conduct checks.
You can even use Craigslist.
from the first page of google.
i'm not gonna post a bunch of actual links on how to buy guns.
try this one:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022225060
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)No background checks there either.
Nor at the water cooler at work, talking to your co-workers.
Nor at the pub.
Nor at a garage sale.
You don't seem to understand the difference between a private transfer and a dealer. Moreover, you don't seem to understand the laws that apply when you sell a gun even privately, across state lines.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)that's an excellent idea, thanks!
http://www.wfsb.com/story/20649735/groupon-to-cancel-all-offers-related-to-guns
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/01/time_warner_cable_bans_guns_ads.html
you don't seem to understand there are thousands of shady LEGAL dealers, 10s of thousands of dealers with no FFL who go to stores to stock up and sell them at those places you mention.
they should go to jail for that.
you seem to deny the FACT there are basically NO laws on private sales, and that what few laws there are are broken constantly.
and yes, more laws is the answer. of course less laws is a foolish idea and the current amount obviously aren't enough.
what do you think of my opinion of the FACT that there are more guns than people, yet ~33% of people own all those guns, so gun owners are being selfish, and gun lobbyists and makers are being greedy?
or that fact that america's murder rate is 8 times higher than similar countries?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/chart-the-u-s-has-far-more-gun-related-killings-than-any-other-developed-country/
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)"you don't seem to understand there are thousands of shady LEGAL dealers, 10s of thousands of dealers with no FFL who go to stores to stock up and sell them at those places you mention."
That's called a straw purchase, is a felony, and has specific criteria that defines it so.
"you seem to deny the FACT there are basically NO laws on private sales, and that what few laws there are are broken constantly."
I didn't say that at all. There ARE some, for instance, crossing state lines, use an FFL. For local, you cannot knowingly sell to an ineligible recipient. Is that a weaksauce set of protections? Sure I suppose. But lacking registration, and the government not allowing private sellers to access NICS, it's difficult for anyone to do much about it. Requiring FFL transfers would be fine, Congress just needs to do it. That will solve the 'internet gun sales' and local private transfers in one gasp. They aren't different issues.
"what do you think of my opinion of the FACT that there are more guns than people, yet ~33% of people own all those guns, so gun owners are being selfish, and gun lobbyists and makers are being greedy? "
I think you don't understand why people own guns. One gun does not serve all purposes. For someone 'in the field' of firearms ownership, it is pretty normal to have more than one type of weapon. Is it selfish? Strange choice of words. Are there people trying to buy guns that can't get any because they are all sold out? (Well, NOW there are.)
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)NEW ALBANY, Ind. (WHAS11) -- More than 250 firearms surrendered to police officers last month as part of a gun buyback program in New Albany, Indiana have been destroyed.
Police had given money to the people who turned in their firearms. The event was so popular that they distributed all of their allocated money.
Officers destroyed the guns Monday morning using a powerful metal shearing machine.
Now, that metal will be recycled for other uses.
***
The collected firearms were destroyed Tuesday afternoon, said Sgt. Maria Hawke, a Tucson Police Department spokeswoman. The guns were shredded by a private company, Hawke said.
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/tucson-gun-buyback-draws-a-big-crowd/article_b5c7b8c6-59ac-11e2-94d1-0019bb2963f4.html
***
As Luce was turning over his weapon, other gun owners were wheeling and dealing in the parking lot.
Adam Rodriguez sold several of his weapons to other gun enthusiasts. He says this program might help, by getting weapons out of the house where their children, or out of an elderly person's house.
"As far as getting guns out of the hands of bad guys I don't think this is the type of program that is going to do that with any kind of effectiveness," he said.
City Councilman Steve Kozachik disagrees. He says the folks who held their own gun sales in front of TPD proved a point.
"Buying guns for cash and walking away with no background check if that just doesn't scream for legislation to fix that loop hole they couldn't have made that point any better for me," he said.
http://www.kvoa.com/news/gun-buy-back-nets-tpd-206-weapons/
***
The threat brings light to a series of laws, pushed by the NRA and ALEC, that prevent states from destroying guns, and instead require law enforcement to auction them off (or, in some states, use the guns themselves). Arizonas version of the law was signed by Gov. Jan Brewer, R-Ariz., herself a former member of ALEC, in April, 2012, as Brendan Fischer from ALEC Exposed points out.
But, as Bloomberg News reported in August, 2011, Arizona was not the only state to receive the model legislation, a brainchild of the NRA that was adapted by ALEC. The law, called the Firearms Destruction Prevention Act and occasionally the Disposition of Firearms in State and Local Custody Act, also passed in Kentucky, Tennessee and Alaska, for instance, though failed in Alabama.
From Bloomberg at the time:
The model legislation was drafted and approved by ALECs public safety task force, which included representatives from stun-gun maker Taser International Inc. (TASR), energy conglomerate Koch Industries, the American Bail Coalition, and the NRA, according to ALEC documents. Corporate and special interest group members seeking to serve on task forces charged with writing legislative language can pay as much as $35,000 or more to get a seat at the table, according to ALECs web site.
ALECs public safety task force, which was also responsible for the Stand Your Ground laws, was technically broken apart in April of 2012 after some bad press in the wake of the Trayvon Martin shooting in Florida. The group said it would instead focus on economic issues and job creation.
But, Republican State Rep. Jerry Madden of Texas, who chaired the task force, admitted that work on the same issues will be transferred to other committees. ALECs decision wont impact the important issues weve worked on, Madden told the Christian Post.
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/15/nras_threats_over_gun_buyback_tied_to_alec_legislation/
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)And by all means, change the buyback/resell law. If the point is to get them off the street, buy them back and destroy them.
IIRC, New York got around that by having the guns 'bought' from a pool of money that came from private contributions, so while the police destroyed the guns, they are immune because they didn't actually buy the guns. They are just disposing of them. Creative solution. But yes, change the law. That is the appropriate solution to the problem.
To the best of my knowledge, the gun buyback headhunters that set up their own table didn't violate any laws. There are laws about how many you can privately sell, but none about how many you can privately buy. These people are usually looking for high collector value weapons. Some of the guns turned in at these events are worth tens of thousands of dollars. I doubt they are poaching weapons that are dangerous, like illegal full-auto weapons, being that they are doing it right in front of the cops. In fact, I've heard of cops privately doing exactly the same thing, to poach high value weapons.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)Answer: It looks like you covered all your bases. In Arizona it is perfectly legal to do a private sale of either a handgun or a long gun as long as the transaction is done face-to-face between two Arizona residents. Actually the age minimum is 18 years of age for a private transaction. You must be 21 to buy a firearm from a federally licensed dealer. There is no witness or bill of sale required, but both are a good idea. A bill of sale provides a written record of the transaction. I would recommend a bill of sale in ANY private transaction, whether or not it involves firearms. The fact that you had someone witness the transaction is not bad, but not required either.
http://azccwpermit.com/?p=215
so people could have been poaching guns in AZ that had been used in crimes right in front of the cops.
literally, stolen or murder weapons sold to be resold right in front of the cops?
how is that good?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Actually, that could work in our advantage. If the cops suspect a weapon those headhunters bought is stolen or was used in a crime, they can check it.
They cannot check the guns they buyback. That is part of the 'deal' when they say no questions asked. I think that's a terrible idea. Guns collected in that manner should be open to inspection for serial numbers and a ballistic print to see if it was used in a crime. I don't know that it happens, but logically, the gun buybacks are a potential disposal method for crime guns.
Totally agree with you there.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)The guns exchanged for the gift cards, that havent been used in crimes, have already been destroyed.
that 'different person' thing sounds a bit sketchy. more than a bit. he can check the seller's background if he's a dealer, but how can he check on the gun if he isn't a cop?
***
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_buyback_program#In_Australia
Unlike the voluntary buybacks in the United States, Australian gun buybacks of 1996 and 2003 were compulsory, compensated surrenders of newly-illegal firearms.
The 1996 Buyback took 600,000 newly illegal sporting firearms, including all semi-automatic rifles including .22 rim-fires, semi-automatic shotguns and pump-action shotguns. Because the Australian Constitution prevents the taking of property without just compensation the Federal Government decided to put a 1% levy on income tax for one year to finance the compensation. The buyback was predicted to cost A$500 million and had wide community support.[5]
***
After the Sandy Hook massacre on Friday, Murdoch wrote on Twitter: ''Terrible news today. When will politicians find courage to ban automatic weapons? As in Oz after similar tragedy.''
That, says the Morning Herald, prompted a none-too-subtle comment from Australian Liberal Malcolm Turnbull about Murdoch's U.S. cable network. "I suspect they will find the courage when Fox News enthusiastically campaigns for it.''
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/17/australia-gun-reform-buyback-us-national-firearm-agreement/1774549/
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The ones performed in California are 'no questions asked' and the guns are destroyed, period. They do not check them for criminal evidence. (California also does not have the obnoxious 'you must resell it' law)
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)The first of three planned events by a church outreach program Tuesday ran out of $100 gift cards, then gave people IOU's for guns after nearly 100 cards were given out. Cincinnati police detectives will check the weapons to see if any have links to cases they are working. Otherwise, they will be melted into scrap.
http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/ohio/Gun-buyback-in-Cincinnati-collects-135-weapons
Of the weapons that came in, Whitlow said there were two assault rifles, with the others either pistols, shotguns or rifles. Whitlow said after the guns were taken in, police would cross-reference them with a national database to make sure they werent stolen or affiliated with a crime investigation. If they cleared, police would destroy the weapons.
The program was billed as no-questions-asked. Whitlow said typically, buyback programs are marketed that way.
The safety factor far outweighs any law enforcement issues whether it was stolen or used in a crime, Whitlow said. I would expect 90 percent of these guns, if not 99 percent,will come back with no record on them.
http://newsandtribune.com/x2056569114/FUNDS-FOR-GUNS-New-Albany-gun-buyback-empties-cash-clip-quickly-50-000-spent-in-90-minutes
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)And in a world in which people are allowed to carry guns, what is to happen to those of us who have no business carrying guns?
Unfortunately, while some people who like guns are not bad, you can be sure that the bad guys like guns, will get guns and will use guns just because they can.
babylonsister
(171,035 posts)proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)I'm sure he can go buy a car if he wanted.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)He has other people drive them, of course.
OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Lots of musicians collect guns. Elvis Presley did.
Jarhead1775
(43 posts)Being blind is no reason to deny him. S
I just don't see us saying "sorry, your blind, you don't enjoy rights"
Does he need to be cautious, yes.
To me, it's like saying "you are mute, you don't have the freedom of speech". Maybe not exactly the same, but hopefully most get the idea.
As a disabled vet, I would hate to have a govt that says " sorry about your leg being gone, you now lose 'x' right" due to disability.
My 2 cents
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)Not all disabilities are created equal...
For example-
I believe if your vision is 20/200 or worse no state will let you have a license to drive-
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)you don't think he SEES the real issue, that such a bad pun it's almost insulting!
he sure can't drive a car in public.
pretty sure the dealer takes your licenswe number when you buy a car.
um.
the issue isn't discrimination against the blind, it is that anybody can buy a gun anytime they want, almost anywhere.
no ??s asked.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)A California resident can only buy a firearm from a licensed dealer in California.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 22, 2013, 07:00 PM - Edit history (1)
anybody can get a gun, that's why there are MORE guns than PEOPLE.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Because I wrote it.
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)try again.
Ashgrey77
(236 posts)Doesn't mean it's legal and that's the point.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)A vehicle only has to be licensed to be operated on a public road. So if Stevie Wonder wants to have the largest collection of Rolls Royce vehicles on the planet, who cares. As long as he's not driving them in public, he can buy all the cars he wants no questions asked, no license, no nothing.
stuntcat
(12,022 posts)I mean I love him more now
nolabels
(13,133 posts)another_liberal
(8,821 posts)I bet he gets it done too. What a hoot!
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)another_liberal
(8,821 posts)I saw Stevie Wonder once on Letterman, when he lifted his sunglasses a little and pretended to be reading a label. It was so convincing that Letterman actually said:
"So you can really . . ., " and then he caught himself.
It got a huge laugh.
Samantha
(9,314 posts)who sang about "Castles In the Sand."
Loved him then, still love him now.
Sam
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)xoom
(322 posts)And that someone like him shouldn't own a gun and should not be sold one?
okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)in that a blind person should not be allowed to purchase XYZ. Particularly where that thing intersects with an enumerated constitutional right.
I'd be more annoyed if he was prohibited, based upon a 'disability'.
Brother Buzz
(36,375 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I met him when I was a teen, and he asked me to write a letter to a man named John McCain who was a Congressman from Arizona who opposed the holiday we observed yesterday, Martin Luther King Jr Day. Stevie asked me to write him and let him know that I thought he was wrong to block the recognition of one of our greatest Americans. I'd never heard of John McCain, but I knew who Stevie was, of course, and I knew he was trying to get that holiday recognized. I was happy to oblige.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)He starts talking about the idea of acquiring a firearm just before the 2-minute mark.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)- K&R
Paladin
(28,243 posts)Seriously. It is.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.
valerief
(53,235 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)If he was even half serious when he made the remark to Piers Morgan, when he finds out how much of a hassle it would be for him to buy a gun legally, he'll blow it off and never say another word about it.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)ecstatic
(32,653 posts)California does a lot to control gun sales, and I applaud them for that. The laws in red states are unbelievably lax. You can get a gun in 20 minutes or less.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)tblue37
(65,227 posts)restriction to the concealed carry law that prevented blind people from qualifying for a CC permit.
Generic Brad
(14,272 posts)Ted seems nimble enough to dodge bullets.