General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCarlos Miller gets roughed up again in Miami for taking pictures
GAWD BLESS UHMERIKA!
http://www.photographyisnotacrime.com/
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)Seems like he forced the confrontation. I'm more interested in unprovoked harassment issues with law enforcement. I don't support a set-up. No accolades from me.
RandiFan1290
(6,229 posts)and obeyed like a good American! So what if they didn't do anything wrong.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)It has no power. Attention seeking behavior is childish.
RandiFan1290
(6,229 posts)FarPoint
(12,336 posts)Carlos even introduced the planned outcome in the video.
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)I must have missed it.
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)Care to spell it out for me?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Oooh, confronting police violating civil rights and anticipating them becoming violent? How "childish and attention-seeking".
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)I'm offended by your MLK reference. I refer to a lame video and call it manipulation ..you find it perfectly reasonable to insult Martin Luther King.
That is shameful behavior in my house..
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I compared two people standing up for their civil rights, who were unjustly attacked by law enforcement for it.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)I'm not addressing the issue of the arrest/ removal from the Metro platform or the officers...
I think it was a cheap, manipulative act on his part. He staged the event....He was not taking pictures for his personal use or desire when all of the sudden the officers surprisingly confront him for taking pictures which they say is against rules/law... If it had happened in that fashion, it would be credible and worthy of outrage.
Carlos did it this premeditated act just to evoke the confrontation. That is a set-up. It apparently is something he has done before, so he accomplished his mission, to make a scene and provide such on video for YouTube and DU'ers to give him accolades. I call it impotent.
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)In the video you will see that the transit cop says that he believes that Miller has been drinking.
Miller responds "Yes, I have been that's why we're taking the Metro" (paraphrased)
So it sounds to me like Miller, a professional photographer; saw a nice shot while waiting for the Metro, and was harassed while getting a few photographs.
Where is the setup?
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Or are you just doing some cop ass-kissing? The cops get enough support of their own, they don't need folks like you excusing their illegal and abhorrent activity. Rights don't do any good if they're not exercised. And excusing illegal activities by cops is more than just childish, it's unamerican.
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)There was absolutely nothing, nada, zilch that Miller was doing illegal on that platform.
By the way, Miller has a pending civil suit against the Miami-Dade PD after his case with Miami-Dade PD's Chief of Police was brought back not guilty.
You simply cannot refuse the right of a photographer the right to photograph a public building or infrastructure. Period. There's no debate.
You say Miller was being confrontational, setting this up? I see that he was defending his rights to do what he is within every legal right to do.
I'm very willing to be that Miller is vindicated (again) in this situation...
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)He is indeed a menace. Makes it worse and diminishes events for those who truly suffer from harassment.
Attention seeking faux drama.
" Me, Me...over here!"...."Come get me...I'm taking a picture...hey, over here ...look a t me". Then posts a video of the fixed event.
Yea...right Carlos....
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)"Because he said look here they come, over here..."
If that's the leg you are standing on that this is being setup; it's a weak leg to stand upon.
At the point where the transit authority was dispatched, when transit authority was visibly present in this situation; Miller was legally responsible for maintaining his presence until "Am I being detained?" is/was determined.
Still, there is nothing illegal prior to the scuffle on the escalator.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)He sets the scene, night time hours just to promote his lawsuit and strategy.
He had the camera rolling and looking for the Officers, filmed the displayed no smoking sign, rules before he was ever approached....He set the viewer up for an expected confrontation due to rule violation. Come on for crying out loud....this was his mission...self promotional, victimization fraud.
It's dishonest.
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)What "rules" did Miller film here?
Sets the scene? Being out at night sets the scene to promote, what exactly?
I was under the impression that an individual was guaranteed the right to move freely whenever one wanted...what difference does the time of day make here?
NONE.
He had his camera rolling. Yes, any citizen who knows their rights would also be well advised to do so.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)A member of the public, in a public place, taking a picture of public property should never be prevented from doing so or arrested for it. Period.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)"Get Punked" catagory. ...It's self promoting.
Response to FarPoint (Reply #18)
Post removed
RandiFan1290
(6,229 posts)If they tape started when the "guards" approached Carlos then the excuse would be... "Well, we didn't see what happened before this"
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)The power of "what we didn't see" is being invoked here.
PATHETIC.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)it's the fraud that is disturbing.
If you believe this video was not a planned outcome/ set-up....then you must believe reality TV isn't fixed either....like Honey Boo Boo..?
RandiFan1290
(6,229 posts)You seem to be really confused.
demwing
(16,916 posts)But you seem to be alone in this belief
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)I understand his concerns....I disapprove of how he manipulates the outcome....Maybe I can look outside the box better than most.
Maybe I empathise more for real victims verses this weak display by Carlos.
demwing
(16,916 posts)Or maybe you're just tilting at windmills?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)He's upset because his cop fuckbuddies were caught yet again being abusive, and can't handle being made to look like the fascist trash they are.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)It wasn't just a spur of the moment decision.
Do you consider what she did to be fraudulent?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)She planned it out with the NAACP! Didn't you know, she's a fraud! Civil-disobedience and challenging abusive authority is just attention-whoring!
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)How times have changed.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)It's disgusting that some here don't...
senseandsensibility
(17,000 posts)I can't recall. But I do recall that he was a frequent poster here.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)And what he's actually doing is exposing the stupidity of stupid laws - or, actually "policies" that aren't really laws at all.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)Carlos is a drama seeker. Diminishes real events that require our attention....Carlos essentially punked the Metro Officers.
RandiFan1290
(6,229 posts)Instead of playing silly kid games
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)I don't even know Carlos.
snip>
"Just admit you don't like Carlos"
His video....it is manipulative.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)No one forced them to go up to Carlos and deny his right to film in a public place. You would have made a great German back in the old days.
RC
(25,592 posts)Doesn't matter. What he was doing was legal. The security really had no business harassing him, except for intimidation purposes.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)He was removed from the area is all we know.
I don't like traps....this style just diminishes real abuse events that really should be video logged.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)C'mon.
demwing
(16,916 posts)Even though fascists often feel threatened in its presence.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Far better that they illegally harass people who are not prepared for the confrontation.
TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)Remember when this place was always on the liberal side?
demwing
(16,916 posts)And a lone -- but vocal-- complainer sees it differently.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)not even close. I don't buy the video content as being a naturally occurring event...it was a predictable outcome by the videographer....this discredits real abuses.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,306 posts)The authorities claimed it was illegal to take photos of the track. This seems a pointless law, if it really exists (they never tell Miller what the law is, despite repeated requests to do so), and then arrest him (yes, putting someone in handcuffs is arresting them - if not, then it's illegal imprisonment), for a 'code 35', which appears to be a claim he is drunk. But they started the confrontation.
Miller may well have taken the film hoping to get the guards to try and stop him - because he is peacefully protesting a law, or one interpretation of a law, he (and most of us) see as stupid and authoritarian. This does not 'discredit' anything. It may not be the worst abuse of rights in the world, but it's still an abuse. By criticising him for peacefully protesting, you are siding with the authorities.
trumad
(41,692 posts)I'll say it again---Are you fucking serious..
HE DIDN'T DO A GOD DAMN THING WRONG OR ILLEGAL!
Not one fucking thing wrong and you think he deserved this shit.
Can't take pictures of the track? Where's the law?
Can't drink alcohol? Where's the fucking law?
One more time---ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS!
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)It is with the set-up to instigate that is weak and unworthy of the attention. He evoked the confrontation for self serving needs. It equates a prank verses outrage.
This is not how change is made but delayed.
trumad
(41,692 posts)What law did he break?
What fucking law did he break?
If you say none---which I expect you will.... then what you are advocating is the arrest of a U.S Citizen for no reason.
Really---is that you stance here?
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)My grief is not with rules being broken etc....that issue has been lost by the fact he instigated the confrontation for video purposes. His intention to evoke a scene to support his law suit come to mind...which he identifies in the video.
It is a cheap, weak shot at the Metro Rules for self promotion.
trumad
(41,692 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)if you don't know what you're talking about, nobody is forcing you to talk about it.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)I on the other hand am addressing the totality of the video. Carlos pre planned the outcome as he knew what they would do, thus he intended to evoke confrontation. It was more like entertainment instead of discovery and exposure.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)because when confronted over which rules you were referring to, you have nothing.
FarPoint
(12,336 posts)He went to the Metro with intent to make a scene and video the event. Premeditated disturbance for the purpose of YouTube hits.
I respect authentic video clips. This is not even close to a respectable " Gotch ya" style...It was predictable... I can't give this video any credit. Its weak.
Ellipsis
(9,124 posts)Earth_First
(14,910 posts)What fucking rules are you talking about?!
Just because a cop SAYS there is a rule; does not make it so.
The Supreme Court ruled that Miller is well within his rights. End of story.
This cop is FULL.OF.SHIT.
Cops lie All.The.Time.
Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)"Taking still, sound or motion picture recordings for commercial, training or educational purposes (exception of news coverage), without prior written authorization by Miami-Dade Transit."
http://www.miamidade.gov/transit/passenger-safety.asp
Not taking any sides here, but it's DHS guidelines they're following.
RandiFan1290
(6,229 posts)"for commercial, training or educational purposes"
None of those apply in this situation
Robb
(39,665 posts)Ultimately, the video became educational -- but from reading the account, they started out just taking pictures for fun, personal use. Perfectly acceptable under policy.
The guards' behavior was atrocious; they had several opportunities to make the problem go away using something other than their authority to detain, and they chose to escalate the situation at every turn.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)So it looks like he WAS following their guidelines, and the metro police were ignoring them.
Daniel537
(1,560 posts)As the statement clearly states, the only pics not allowed are those for non-personal usage. You can take as many pics as you want for your own use. These thugs in uniform know it, they just don't give a damn. Kudos to Carlos for standing up to their bullshit.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)This is part of the changes post 9-11. They are concerned that the pictures may be used in a terrorist plot. That the pictures will give intel about where the vulnerabilities are in the system, where exits are, etc.
Logical
(22,457 posts)I do not think it is true!
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)Can you post a link to show what law this guy was supposedly violating?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)From NY Times: About New York
No Photo Ban in Subways, Yet an Arrest
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/nyregion/18about.html?_r=0
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)No where does it say filming is not permitted in public areas.
I have no idea where you got your idea it was illegal. Have you been to NYC? People take pictures and video all the time of the subway.
It is 100% legal. Has been for years. Please self delete your old link!
Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Part.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm
Logical
(22,457 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and he's had some disturbing run-ins with Miami-Dade PD before...Go find some of his stuff from a few years back...
countryjake
(8,554 posts)He remains a member in good standing, a dedicated liberal activist.
Tho, as it says on his blog page, the mere mention of his name is an anathema to right-wingers down in Miami. And, apparently, that is also true for some right here on DU.
No wonder his posts are now scarce here; who can really blame him?!
immoderate
(20,885 posts)I know Carlos. He is an activist. I can imagine what you'd say about Rosa Parks.
--imm
2on2u
(1,843 posts)ago.
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)And I mean Carlos.
trumad
(41,692 posts)Response to trumad (Reply #50)
Post removed
Response to Post removed (Reply #54)
Post removed
EOTE
(13,409 posts)I find idiots who don't give a damn about civil liberties to be far more annoying, yet I don't believe they should be incarcerated for being an idiot. You should be glad there are more people like me in this country than people like you.
GoneOffShore
(17,339 posts)Can you explain that?
Taking pictures in public of public buildings is not against the law.
And pushing back at trollish security guards who believe that everyone must "Obey my authoritah!" is not being an "attention whore".
Heidi
(58,237 posts)Thank you in advance.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)I am appalled that anyone would attack him here. He has established his creds with me after years of challenging cops who try to deny his right to film their behavior. Those criticizing him have zero credibility. They would have been banned as trolls at the old DU. It wouldn't be Carlos defending his actions, that's for sure.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)I say more Truthy to Power- (makes for good youtubes )
Heidi
(58,237 posts)than I do by concealed carriers of firearms.
However, I wonder why any law enforcement officer or security guard would feel threatened by Carlos Miller and his open-carry camera. Maybe you could explain it to us. Please?
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Heidi
(58,237 posts)I'm not sure where you're coming from, but the public record shows that Carlos knows the law and his rights. If Carlos or anyone else lawfully exercising their First Amendment rights is deemed provocative by an LEO, that's LEO's fault, not the photographer's fault.
To photographers, professional or otherwise, who don't know the law and their rights, I recommend:
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-your-rights-photographers
snooper2
(30,151 posts)educational and entertaining LOL
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)He has been being harassed by Miami dade cops for years. And rather than just accepting their BS power trips, he calls them on their behavior. he takes photographs when they rough up protestors, he witnesses for us when they violate our rights. And yet you take the side of the ones in the wrong. Why? Why do you agree to comply with unlawful demands? Are we all just compliant complacent little sheep here or free citizens?
I am disgusted by all the "little Eichmanns" around here. Perfect citizens: Know nothing, hear nothing, do nothing. No questions asked.
To compare a person who takes photographs in public places to a guy who open carries a damn semi-auto assault weapon to a mall is absurd. Next you will argue the guy has a right to shoot the man for taking his photograph.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)check this out!
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)by comparing Carlos to "another one" who feels the need to defend his rights. Worse, you drew a false comparison to a nut job.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)He's got 257 videos uploaded...LOL
A star!
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Heidi
(58,237 posts)Taking photographs of things that are plainly visible from public spaces is a constitutional right and that includes federal buildings, transportation facilities, and police and other government officials carrying out their duties. Unfortunately, there is a widespread, continuing pattern of law enforcement officers ordering people to stop taking photographs from public places, and harassing, detaining and arresting those who fail to comply.
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-your-rights-photographers
Plus, Carlos Miller's website: http://www.photographyisnotacrime.com/
And this resource is recommended by DUer Earth_First: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
trumad
(41,692 posts)Are simply fucking idiots who just are not to bright.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I'd suggest some of these doubters do a quick search in the archives and get up-to-speed...
Heidi
(58,237 posts)Poor things. Bless their hearts.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)I thought it sounded like bullshit, that some are saying it is against the law to take photos. The ACLU rocks, and I trust they are right on this.
csziggy
(34,136 posts)After reading post after post about Carlos Miller inciting his arrest, it is wonderful to have some FACTS posted with links.
Miller's actions were not illegal. Harassment, assault and battery by corporate cops (50 State Security Services Inc is the name of the security firm whose "officers" attacked Mr. Miller - http://50state.com/) is illegal.
randome
(34,845 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:52 PM - Edit history (1)
Is photography not an art form? Is photography not used in journalism? As much as the government would love to be the arbiters of who's officially part of The Press, thus deserving of freedom of the press, and to be able to tell Carlos he's not a Real Journalist, that fact that he takes pictures and videos, then puts them on his blog and broadcasts them on the Internet makes him part of the press, which means he should be getting First Amendment protections.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)ellisonz
(27,711 posts)beevul
(12,194 posts)regjoe
(206 posts)things like this are ok as long as it keeps us "safe."
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Lone_Star_Dem
(28,158 posts)I was just thinking about him the other day.
Keep up the good work, Carlos!
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)I've been commuting to VA from MD for over 3 years now and have never seen an empty metro car. I happened to be in the (almost) empty car, so I thought I'd snap a quick pic. Cop comes out of conductors' area and asks me what I'm taking pictures of. I told him the empty train car, showed him the pic and then said, "I've never seen an empty car before."
He then proceeds to tell me that I look suspicious because of the inauguration, did I maybe consider that when I went to take the picture. I told him, no, I'm not a criminal, so I wouldn't consider that. I've read Carlos' blog and other sites (I have the photographer's right PDF) but I never figured I'd have need of that information.
So for those giving Carlos a hard time about what he's doing, think about taking an innocent photograph and then being "talked" to about doing so by an armed person. Or consider that if you state your constitutional rights and are arrested because the cops feel like.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)It is sad to see that it is still necessary.
Given the history with Carlos, one would think that the Metro security would have standing orders to all its members to not engage Carlos in any way, shape, or form since they cannot be bothered to properly train their employees.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Been so long, I forget. Why did he quit posting here?
countryjake
(8,554 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)But ya, I get your point.
Member since: Fri Nov 12, 2004, 01:34 PM
Number of posts: 13,394
Number of posts, last 90 days: 0
Favorite forum: NA
Favorite group: NA
Last post: Fri May 4, 2012, 12:53 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=157181
I think like many he got tired of the BS here and wants to focus on other things.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I see he posted recently, good to have him back! Well the fighting with the same old people over the same old stuff year after year get boring.
beevul
(12,194 posts)Hutzpa
(11,461 posts)the police force in this country has been operating on this level unchallenged for a very long time.
Expressing Laws which has not been passed by the courts, but since they are wearing police uniform you as
a law abiding citizen is suppose to listen to "their" interpretation of the law.
It is outrageous how they've been allowed to get away with this style of policing.
FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS.
We are suppose to be LAND OF THE FREE.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)For those of you who haven't read Altemeyer ( http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ ), these are the three big traits of right-wing authoritarians:
1. Authoritarian Submission: DU's authoritarians are butthurt because RagingInMiami isn't bowing down and licking boots when confronted by Miami's finest...
2. Authoritarian Aggression: DU's authoritarians are not only cheerleading the bit of police brutality in the video, but they're shit-stirring and accusing RagingInMiami of "fraud" and "childishness" and "attention-seeking" and "a setup" for daring to challenge the police for their behavior against him for what... Taking pictures...
3. Conventionalism: Keeps insisting that RagingInMiami was violating rules of some sort, even though they can't articulate exactly what rules have been broken.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)beevul
(12,194 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
And neither would Peter Gabriel:
Response to RandiFan1290 (Original post)
Daniel537 This message was self-deleted by its author.
RagingInMiami
(13,395 posts)Interesting conversation here which seems to mirror the conversations on other sites.
Despite the evidence in the video, many people will side with the security guards because I did not abide by their unlawful orders to stop video recording.
I understand many people don't have it in them to stand up for their rights but it's sad when those same people criticize those that do.
Here is my update.
http://www.photographyisnotacrime.com/2013/01/25/metrorail-attack-reveals-much-work-to-be-done-for-photographers-rights/
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)RandiFan1290
(6,229 posts)Thanks for the update. I found this video on Liveleak and was surprised it wasn't on DU.
You're pissing off all the right people so you know you are doing it right!