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Tumbulu

(6,274 posts)
Thu Jan 26, 2012, 04:48 PM Jan 2012

Comparing mortality rates of infantry soldiers to mothers and some personal musings.....

OK a few days ago there was a post in "Good Reads" about mortality rates of childbirth compared to the mortality rate for abortions in the US.

I posted that people should read Roe V Wade as this is certainly not new information, in fact this is the very information used in that pivotal decision.

I began to wonder what the mortality rate for infantry soldiers are....and how they compare to those associated with childbirth.

Here are some statistics that I was able to find online:

The death ratio per 100,000 in Afghanistan was about 88, it was 7 in Iraq.

from : http://www.beforeyousignup.info/joining/army/54-danger

So then what are the mortality rates for childbirth? From Wikipedia:

Maternal Mortality Ratio is the ratio of the number of maternal deaths per 100,000 live births. The MMR is used as a measure of the quality of a health care system. Sierra Leone has the highest maternal death rate at 2,000, and Afghanistan has the second highest maternal death rate at 1900 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births, reported by the UN based on 2000 figures. According to the Central Asia Health Review,Afghanistan's maternal mortality rate was 1,600 in 2007.[11] Lowest rates included Ireland at 0 per 100,000 and Austria at 4 per 100,000. In the United States, the maternal death rate was 11 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in 2005.[12] This rose to 13.3 per 100,000 in 2006.[13] "Lifetime risk of maternal death" accounts for number of pregnancies and risk. In sub-Saharan Africa the lifetime risk of maternal death is 1 in 16, for developed nations only 1 in 2,800.
In 2003, the WHO, UNICEF and UNFPA produced a report with statistics gathered from 2000. The world average per 100,000 was 400, the average for developed regions was 20, and for developing regions 440. Countries with highest maternal mortality were: Sierra Leone (2,000), Afghanistan (1,900), Malawi (1,800), Angola (1,700), Niger (1,600), Tanzania (1,500), Rwanda (1,400), Mali (1,200), Somalia, Zimbabwe, Chad,Central African Republic, Guinea Bissau (1,100 each), Mozambique, Burkina Faso, Burundi, and Mauritania (1,000 each).

So, one can conclude that having a baby in the US is right up there between serving in the infantry in Iraq or Afghanistan....and that the "lifetime risk of maternal death" exceeds all risks for modern infantries.

Before anyone even talks about restricting abortions or contraceptives, be sure to pull out some facts.

And for those that chose to have children- know that it is a monumental physically risky proposition.

It used to be that 1 in 100 women died in childbirth. It is much better now, but it still is by all means a serious and potentially lethal thing for the human body to do. Pretending it is not has become some sort of a propaganda tool, I think.

Perhaps we are not really used to the idea of pregnancy being a choice rather than a condition of the majority of females within the population...... as it used to be here not so very long ago, and still is in much of the world. Perhaps we are so enamored with the magical successes of modern medicine....but the risks and dangers are there.

One may decide that the risks are worth it- but it is not for someone else to impose on a person and certainly not the government. Which is what my reading of Roe v Wade gave to me, all those years ago. It is worth rereading, I think.
















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Comparing mortality rates of infantry soldiers to mothers and some personal musings..... (Original Post) Tumbulu Jan 2012 OP
Thank you for posting this one Warpy Jan 2012 #1
You are so correct Tumbulu Jan 2012 #3
Thank you. Jankyn Jan 2012 #2
Absolutely! (nt) Tumbulu Jan 2012 #4
Am I the only one who was unaware that the risks of childbirth equal or exceed Tumbulu Jan 2012 #5
I hadn't seen it phrased in quite this way Withywindle Jan 2012 #6
Thanks Tumbulu Jan 2012 #7
I almost lost a friend that way in the early 90s Withywindle Jan 2012 #8
What a story Tumbulu Jan 2012 #9
I knew it REP Feb 2012 #12
wow, Thank you! But how did I miss this? Tumbulu Feb 2012 #13
Because woman = mother is so ingrained REP Feb 2012 #15
Thanks, no one should be forced to Tumbulu Feb 2012 #16
My culture is the dominant US culture REP Feb 2012 #17
Yes this is part of what outrages me Tumbulu Feb 2012 #18
Also according the the WHO statistics published online Tumbulu Jan 2012 #10
Yeah, that's what I thought. Withywindle Feb 2012 #11
I agree Tumbulu Feb 2012 #14

Warpy

(111,245 posts)
1. Thank you for posting this one
Thu Jan 26, 2012, 05:05 PM
Jan 2012

This is important not only in the discussion of abortion in that such risk needs to be voluntary, but also in the incredibly silly discussions about having women spend their safest childbearing years in enforced military service, the universal draft. It is double jeopardy for women and will likely raise the risk when service is complete and they start having babies.

Men, especially, seem to need to believe that since pregnancy and childbirth are natural conditions, they must also be risk free.

Jankyn

(253 posts)
2. Thank you.
Thu Jan 26, 2012, 05:20 PM
Jan 2012

While there are a lot of very good reasons for women to take this risk, we need to always remember that it IS a risk, and ought to be treated as such.

Tumbulu

(6,274 posts)
5. Am I the only one who was unaware that the risks of childbirth equal or exceed
Thu Jan 26, 2012, 10:43 PM
Jan 2012

that of our military fighting in wars? Is this common knowledge and I just missed it, or is the risk minimized as a cultural thing.

Withywindle

(9,988 posts)
6. I hadn't seen it phrased in quite this way
Fri Jan 27, 2012, 02:59 AM
Jan 2012

But yeah, the risks are definitely minimized as a cultural thing, I think. The risk of death in childbirth is a lot lower than it used to be, but it sure as hell isn't ever zero!


Another reason why it is never OK to force a woman to undergo that against her will.

Great post!

Tumbulu

(6,274 posts)
7. Thanks
Fri Jan 27, 2012, 11:02 PM
Jan 2012

I was just talking to a friend about this today- she had never thought of it this way, either.

Why don't we as women all know this? Why is the risk so trivialized? And why don't people quote the statistics used in the Roe V Wade decision?

Now maybe all the people who study feminist history know about this- perhaps it is because I am out of many loops....don't know.

My niece just had a baby and was seriously surprised how close to death it seemed to take her. I know that I felt that way giving birth....I had assumed that the risk of death was very low and all these "death at childbirth scenes" in movies were just theatrics....... yet even right now with all the advances in medicine and maternal care here we are just in between serving in Iraq or Afghanistan......



Withywindle

(9,988 posts)
8. I almost lost a friend that way in the early 90s
Sat Jan 28, 2012, 03:34 AM
Jan 2012

She was in very good physical shape: hiker, vegetarian, nonsmoker, 23 years old, in stable relationship that was very happy at the time, had a family history full of women who gave birth a lot with not much trouble...and then it happened: pre-natal hypertension in a BAD way, among other things. She was in and out of hospitals all the time during her last two months. All of a sudden, this healthy, fit, vibrant young woman had become very endangered. She wound up having to have a C-section in ICU. Thank the gods, she and her son both made it.

She never had any more children after that; she was advised not to try, and she took that advice. I'm glad she took it, as I'm sure everyone else who loves her (especially her son) is too.

As a woman, I definitely knew how risky it was. My mom almost lost her own mom that way (that grandmother of mine died when my mom was only 10, and a stillborn would-have-been aunt of mine with her).

Maternal death rate is much lower than it was 100 years ago--but if you really follow the stats, in the US it's actually HIGHER now than it was 10 years ago.

I don't know if this is really true, but I did read once that in the tales of the Mexica/Aztec people, there was a particular level of afterlife that was only for 2 classes of people: men who died in battle, and women who died in childbirth. It was understood that the levels of pain and risk of death--and the courage necessary to face either bravely--were comparable, so those who lost their lives in those ways should receive equal posthumous respect.





Tumbulu

(6,274 posts)
9. What a story
Sat Jan 28, 2012, 03:43 AM
Jan 2012

I wonder if we took a poll of people if they would know how risky it is? I am impressed that you knew- I wonder why I was so surprised to realize the mortality rate is so high. Perhaps I just never paid any attention to it? When I had my daughter I had the idea that no one ever died anymore giving birth......

I just looked at the rate of police officers and sheriffs in the US and it is less than the current 24 deaths per 100,000 live birth of US women, it is a 19 deaths per 100,000 officers.

Tumbulu

(6,274 posts)
13. wow, Thank you! But how did I miss this?
Thu Feb 2, 2012, 01:58 PM
Feb 2012

How do we get this message out to other clueless people like me? I posted over in the health forum to ask people to try to help me understand the different ways of describing risk ( x per 100,000 what? Hours on the job? Years of work? Rotations of duty, etc) but have not gotten much help yet.

And why is there such a cultural predisposition to trivializing this risk?

REP

(21,691 posts)
15. Because woman = mother is so ingrained
Thu Feb 2, 2012, 04:16 PM
Feb 2012

All women are supposed to want children and be willing to risk anything to have them. Now, for A woman, parts of that could be true, all of it or none of it - but as a blanket statement about ALL women, it's largely unquestioned. We're even routinely fed feature articles about women who sacrificed their lives, forgoing some life-saving treatment, to bring a pregnancy to term, usually framed as "a mother's love" instead of the rare event it is. (My complaint is with the framing, not any individual's choice -just to be clear It is an assumption among almost all societies that every woman wants to have a child, and that she will do anything to have one even though current trends among Industrialized women are showing this to be untrue.

When maternal mortality/morbidity statistics are cited, it's usually seen as a condemnation of our health system, 'safety net' for the poor, poor educational outcomes, etc. While these no doubt do play a role in that and neonatal mortality, it seems few want to acknowledge what every obstetrics textbook does: that each pregnancy is a risk to a woman's life, and even controlling for health, poverty and access to medical care, pregnancy and childbirth bears significant risk of death or disability.

Many women willingly, even joyfully, take on these risks. No one should be forced to.

How to get the word out? Well, I think your analogy is brilliant!

Tumbulu

(6,274 posts)
16. Thanks, no one should be forced to
Thu Feb 2, 2012, 08:21 PM
Feb 2012

is so correct!

And your comments ring true to me.

I am in my mid 50's and most of my childhood friends chose not to have children. In my subculture, having a child was not the norm.

But I was still completely unaware of how risky it really is until I went through childbirth myself.

REP

(21,691 posts)
17. My culture is the dominant US culture
Thu Feb 2, 2012, 08:36 PM
Feb 2012

- and yet, even in my mid-40s, I still get asked why I don't have children or told it's "not too late" (I've had a tubal ligation and uterine ablation .... yeah, it's too late!). I'm lucky, though; unlike many of my other child-free peers, I don't have family and inlaws questioning my choice.

Everything about having (and raising children) is so personal I cannot imagine making that decision, let alone legislating it, for another. Having an opinion? Hell yes - I'm no saint. But to make that choice for someone? Especially one that has no direct effect on me? I'm not that pretentious!

Tumbulu

(6,274 posts)
18. Yes this is part of what outrages me
Thu Feb 2, 2012, 08:58 PM
Feb 2012

that ANYONE dares to say that someone has to go through with a pregnancy if they do not want to.

I must say that I find it particularly perturbing to hear this rubbish from other women who have given birth. Having done it myself I would never suggest that it is "easy" or "just part of nature" or any of these silly statements that get thrown about. It is an amazing thing to do- highly risky and absolutely NOT to be trivialized! Or mandated by a government no less.

Tumbulu

(6,274 posts)
10. Also according the the WHO statistics published online
Sat Jan 28, 2012, 03:45 AM
Jan 2012

the current rate of mortality per 100,000 live births in the USA is 24, which is a jump in just a decade.

Withywindle

(9,988 posts)
11. Yeah, that's what I thought.
Thu Feb 2, 2012, 03:56 AM
Feb 2012

It's higher now than it was 10 years ago. Our standard of living has diminished in a lot of ways.


I oppose forced-birth (aka "pro-life&quot for the exact same reasons I oppose a miitary draft: It's one thing for people to willingly risk their lives by their own choice for something they highly value. It's a TOTALLY different thing to force anyone to face that same risk against their will. I will never ever support the latter.

Tumbulu

(6,274 posts)
14. I agree
Thu Feb 2, 2012, 02:00 PM
Feb 2012

....how do we get this message out - if indeed I have articulated the statistical risks accurately?

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