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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTennessee Supreme Court Considers Whether Minor Is An Accomplice In Her Own Statutory Rape
It's hard to imagine a more devastatingly unjust view of child sex crimes than one that considers the victim as an accomplice in the crime committed against them. But in Tennessee that's the very issue before the state supreme court in a case that has drawn attention to a centuries old rule that strikes some troubling contemporary notes on rape, consent and force.
In State v. Collier, a 42 year-old man was convicted of aggravated statutory rape after having sex with a 14-year-old victim. Collier, who authorities say was an old friend of the teenager's father, allegedly picked the victim up from a friend's house, took her back to his home where he had sex with her. When the girl returned home the next day she told police she had called Collier from her friend's house and that he picked her up and that she had consented to sex with him. Based on her statement Collier was arrested and charged with aggravated statutory rape.
...
Believe it or not, under Tennessee common law, it is possible for a minor sex crime victim to also be an accomplice in the crime. The issue turns on whether that victim voluntarily consented to the sexual activity. If your head is swimming after that last sentence, you are not alone. The very idea of statutory rape is that some kinds of sexual encounters are legally impossible to consent to per se—such as the one between a forty-two-year-old man and a fourteen-year-old girl. Yet in Tennessee a string of cases suggest the pernicious idea that minors are culpable in their victimization is not at all a thing of the past.
...
Some legal observers believe the Tennessee Supreme Court agreed to hear the case in order to do away with this idea once and for all. But when the state Supreme Court in Alabama unilaterally declares a fetus a person by judicial fiat, it is hard to feel optimistic about this kind of case. And that is even more true in a political climate where conservatives freely invoke the rhetoric of "legitimate rape" and "honest rape" and when judges in states like California opine on whether a rape victim's case is "real" or merely a "criminal law problem" during the sentencing of her perpetrator. We can talk about the Tennessee law as "arcane" but if it is used to support decisions in the modern day, there is nothing arcane about it. Here the State Supreme Court has an opportunity to make an important clarification in the law and end the legal practice of diminishing the victimization of statutory rape survivors. Let's hope the court takes such an opportunity seriously.
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Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)Heaven forbid she should be held accountable for doing something incredibly irresponsible. Our teenagers must be taught that they can get away with anything at all.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)
wryter2000
(46,036 posts)
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)this is a child and is the victim.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)No teenager should ever have to experience the indignity of experiencing consequences for their bad choices.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you're saying she should do time, for, um what?
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)As a fourteen year old it's her right to do anything she wants without any punishment of any kind. After all, no fourteen year old can be expected to know right from wrong. That's just unfair.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you're derailing this thread over a ridiculous opinion that you won't even own up to.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you keep talking about consequences for her actions.
you wouldn't keep harping on how nothing should be done to her for WHAT SHE DID, if you weren't playing a very dishonest game here.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you are attempting to be coy and say that she is the victim here, just like if she shoplifted or stole a car, she'd also be the victim.
you won't even own it, while totally disrupting a thread which everyone agrees that she is the victim.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)How stupid do you think we are? You are being completely disingenuous and you know it. What no one can figure out is what you're trying to prove. Why don't you try giving us a genuine response, and not that childish one you've repeatedly posted?
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)ever be taught a lesson about anything, and that they should be allowed to do anything they want at all times. It does not make sense.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)because going through a rape trial is far from "no consequences, so I'm assuming you think the whole thing should just be dropped?
Pls clarify.
1. Far better we should teach her that her actions have no consequences.
Heaven forbid she should be held accountable for doing something incredibly irresponsible. Our teenagers must be taught that they can get away with anything at all.
...she told police she had called Collier from her friend's house and that he picked her up and that she had consented to sex with him.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)If scum like that ever laid a hand one of my teenage grandchildren I'd cut off his male parts and cram them down his throat.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)what WAS your point bringing this up?
"...she told police she had called Collier from her friend's house and that he picked her up and that she had consented to sex with him."
Because it looks like snark and victim blaming.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)...and try to tell us that's yor actual position?
Think it'll work?
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)Nobody seems to be getting my point.
And nobody seems will to give me an itemized list of which poor choices a teenager should and should not be held accountable for.
Logging off to go do something productive now.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)And yes, no one got whatever point you were sadly trying to make. I hope the rest of your day gets a better effort.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)sarcastic first post here said it all.
you'd have to be a fucking idiot to take it at face value. you were making light of rape.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)Iggo
(47,549 posts)Spectacular flameout, though.
GeorgeGist
(25,319 posts)Is the most productive thing you'll do today.
alp227
(32,016 posts)Posting Privileges Revoked
Revoked on Jan 25, 2013
Reason
Rape apologist: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022258199
Revoked by Skinner (Administrator)
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)TBH, this guy wasn't exactly one who was above trolling in general, and I was on the receiving end of it myself on a few occasions(I'm not the only one, either), but I can also say that whatever happened in that regard is rather minor compared to what was said here yesterday(TBH, I never did expect him to go this far, though. Not in a million years. ).
Skinner did the right thing, IMO.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)about how it comes about that a 14 year old girl consents to sex with a 42 yr old man. Ask yourself, What kind of upbringing a 14 yr old child that consents to sex with a man old enough to be her father could have had? Ask, How much parental guidance and what sort of examples must have been set before her- for her to think that she could suffer no consequences for her actions? And the 42 year old father's friend- Knowing his actions constitute a crime, takes advantage of his friends daughter? Some friend! Some father for that matter!
You want to blame the child. Children are called children because they are not adults. Their brains are not fully developed and many lack the maturity to make decisions wisely. It's why selling cigarettes and alcohol to them is illegal. They are deemed to young to make these decision to drink or smoke for themselves until they become 18 or 21. And it is also the reason why sex with a minor is considered illegal, even if she consents!
I think this child has suffered much consequences already and I think you are being unfair.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Thank you for making clear which side you are on in the War on Women.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)too, right? They taunted that 42 year old friend of their Dad into wanting them. Poor grownup, all confused by these demanding kids.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)By the time a teenager is fourteen she should be immune to any and all consequences of her actions, just like I said in my post. She is old enough that she should be able to do or say anything she wants to, and never, ever be held accountable for it.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)You're wrong.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)I'll stick with my position. She should NOT be prosecuted. Fourteen year-olds should be free to do or say anything whatsoever without consequences.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)I admire your wit. You're really pissing people off and they can't figure out how to fix it without stepping in it.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)That you find something enjoyable about that pathetic, disgusting effort speaks volumes.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)Show me.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)or are you just defending him?
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)The girl is not responsible and should not be prosecuted, and the 40 year old man is a scumbag and needs to be prosecuted. What's to defend? Do you disagree with that?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)don't say that you read his posts and also say that you didn't notice the sarcasm or thrust of his arguments, which were to assign culpability to her as a party to what happened (even if he tried to be coy by saying that nothing should come about legally as a result).
and what was his reason for saying she shouldn't be punished for shoplifting or driving drunk?
all innocent too, or do you mistakenly think we are that dumb?
oldhippie
(3,249 posts).... our community standards. Why post a topic on a discussion board if you don't want discussion. We both know the answer. We just want to see "me too" comments and no opinions we don't agree with.
It's OK. I understand completely. I think everyone has made their point. I know what the Community Standards are. I try to adhere to them.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)supporting a rape apologist who has now been PPR'ed.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)the 40 year old man. Are you really so dull as to not understand that? Or do you actually understand that yet take the same position? Either way, that's pretty sad.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts).... "to suggest that the 14 year old girl is just as responsible as the 40 year old .."
Do you? Show me that suggestion.
Yes I understand sarcasm. I also understand people refusing to admit that they have double standards. I'm smarter than you think.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)we do not treat what happens between two teens the same as what happens between an adult and a teenager.
we expect human beings to take more responsibility for their behavior as they become adults.
what double standard did you think our dear departed troll exposed in his sarcastic rants?
oldhippie
(3,249 posts).... if you google "14 year old tried as adult" you'll get a few stories about those things we don't do. I'm sure all those stories are fake.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)for adults too, most often used due to the extraordinary circumstances of the crime committed. many murders are prosecuted as manslaughter, when they aren't. the law works in a myriad of mysterious ways. not always perfect.
but all that has nothing to do with rape laws, sorry.
if you think that ass trolling by making sarcastic jokes about a fourteen year getting raped was brilliant, then you don't get out too much. if you think making excuses for rapists flies for very long here, you're sadly mistaken.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)I never said anything about "enhancements." You said "we don't treat 14 year olds as legal adults." I pointed out that we do. You changed the subject.
I have made not one single statement about rape laws, nor have I made any excuses for rapists. I would never do such a thing. But folks here continually make shit up and read whatever they want into a statement to fuel their rage.
Good night. I'm leaving for the weekend.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)which were pure wiseass bullshit, devoid of any purpose except to inflame.
hey, he's already had 4-5 puppets, I'm sure some of you all patting him on the back are 6 and 7.
because there aren't that many deranged assholes here.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)Being a rapist is! Get it! How is that concept beyond you?
antigone382
(3,682 posts)I don't agree with this law either. Fourteen-year-olds are not adults. Period.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Are you really so slow as to not see that? Everyone else here does, and the user was PPRed for it. I think it's pretty clear what was meant.
Response to oldhippie (Reply #109)
LanternWaste This message was self-deleted by its author.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)or you wouldn't have said this:
Good to see Skinner won't tolerate that kinda shit. That name rings a bell too, from DU2. Probably been disrupting under the radar forever.
Good riddance to bad rubbish imo.
alp227
(32,016 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)NO, the only issue is consenting to sex. And 14 year olds are legally incapable of it. At least with guys that old.
And no one said there would be no "consequences." The parent might well ground her or lecture her or yell at her or something. Or whatever they'd have done had she had sex with a 14 year old boy who might not be prosecuted for it.
But we don't know what the 42 year old did or said, either and so there is not a lot of ground to assume she was being a brat or misbehaving by consenting. The idea is that the 42 year old should know better and you should be a lot more concerned that HE have some consequences. That's the issue being discussed here.
Rex
(65,616 posts)and it looks like Skinner was more than happy to provide.
That one has left the building.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)If your car is stolen, should you be held accountable for being robbed?
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)by 14 she knows better and should not be held accountable. So I guess by this logic the 6 yro who doesn't know better should be held accountable 
I think I woke up in the Twilight Zone today 
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)and I'm not buying the attempt to dissemble.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)Kids at 14 should not be held accountable for anything. Not for sex, not for shoplifting, not for bullying, not for fighting. It's just in their nature to explore and test the limits. We MUST allow them to do anything whatsoever without any punishment. How else will they learn to be self-reliant?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)There's a reason statutory rape laws are on the books.
And part of it is people like you.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)argument.
The problem is that your position is reprehensible.
Spazito
(50,283 posts)of simply appalling.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)The bulk of the people who use it only do so because their arguments are incredibly asinine to begin with. I never thought I'd see sarcasm used to defend child rapists. It's a pretty sickening sight.
Spazito
(50,283 posts)when one has nothing substantive to say in defense an indefensible position, as is the case here, they fall back on pathetically obvious disingenuous posts digging their hole ever deeper, imo.
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)
So in the comparison you addressed the 14 yr old- should the 6 yr old be punished so they will know better?
At what age should rape become a crime? 16, 18, 23? 12, 10, 5? Does force need to be used. Some of those toddlers and tiaras dress pretty provocatively but we could allow them to explore their limits, maybe some older relative taught them about sex...
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)sarisataka
(18,600 posts)shoplifting, bullying etc. She would be the victim too.
What should a minor face consequences for?
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)Unless you want to start claiming that some bad choices should have consequences and some should not depending how emotional we adults feel about those choices. What kind of hypocrisy would that be?
Response to Speck Tater (Reply #90)
Post removed
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)This has nothing whatsoever to do with the choices of a 14-year-old. Under the law, a child under the age of consent is not able to make choices, so what this child "decided" is not relevant.
I'm a 52-year-old male. If a fourteen-year-old child shows up on my doorstep, buck naked and screaming "Fuck me, Fuck me, Fuck me NOW" the situation is utterly and completely mine to control. If I choose to engage in sex with this child, it's rape. That the child may have expressed consent is not an issue because the child is not CAPABLE of consenting. If I choose to rape a minor, it makes no difference if the child was a willing participant, if the child was legally drunk, or if a beat her senseless first. Rape is rape.
The only choice that matters is the choice made by the adult -- a choice to rape a child and violate the law.
What they're doing in Tennessee is disgusting and disturbing.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)I'd love to have some of these rape-defenders respond to it.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)EOTE
(13,409 posts)This post gets hidden, yet the numerous posts supporting a child rapist are allowed to stand? What the fuck is going on here?
Dr. Strange
(25,919 posts)It's like Freaky Freeper Friday. 
Science Geek
(161 posts)I do not wish to be a member of site where rape apologists post freely.
Science Geek is outta here.
I denounce Democratic Underground in the strongest possible terms.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)So, in this case, DU did the right thing. I can continue t post in good conscious.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)And definitely not a sickening piece of rape apologist scum.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2258247
oldhippie
(3,249 posts).... accountable for the harm that comes from it?
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)Obviously it depends on the circumstances. If the gun was safely secured in a safe, no. If it was left around where it could easily be taken, yes.
Lastly, 14 year olds can't legally own guns. Nor can they consult to sex with an adult.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)It depends.
Thanks.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)know which side you are on in the War on Women.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)But I am not a participant in the war on women, nor men for that matter. I don't think you will find a single post by me where I take a stand one way or the other. All of my comments in this thread have been about process of discussion, not so much content.
I'm glad we are never guilty of any absolutism or black and white thinking around here. That would really suck.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)friends here, you are sadly mistaken.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Gun owners should be held accountable.
Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #259)
Post removed
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Blaming people for being irresponsible is a different issue.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)So we can blame irresponsible victims for being irresponsible. Check.
Is there a class of people that are not capable of being irresponsible? Children, perhaps?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The level of an individual's responsibility should not be determined by age alone. I have known many children demonstrate more responsibility than many adults. Each case should be determined on it's individual merits.
However, any individual's level of responsibility, no matter how great or how small, has no bearing on their level of victimization. I see a lot of conflation happening in this regard.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)"Each case should be determined on it's individual merits."
So do you think it appropriate that the TN court is determining the level of responsibility or irresponsibility? Or is there an exception for some crimes and not others?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)There is no way the girl/victim is an "accomplice" in the crime, even though she may consider herself a willing victim. The state has established a legal age of consent for carnal knowledge and laws have been enacted, classifying the adult male a rapist. The crime is his, and his alone. The girl bears no responsibility in terms of the crime and Collier's case is bogus IMO.
Any "blame" which may attach to the girl, is not blame for being a victim. She appears to have made some bad choices and hopefully will have learned from that. Whatever she might have done, though, does not excuse the crime, nor does it mitigate the crime in any way. Succumbing to temptation is not a defense.
Gun owners, OTOH, have a responsibility, and should be held accountable, to a degree, for their negligent actions that result in innocent lives being endangered or lost. True accountability in that area would change a lot of minds regarding gun ownership.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)Well stated. I'll keep that in mind.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and no, it;s not appropriate for TN courts to try and place any responsibility on the child.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)BainsBane
(53,031 posts)leaving a gun around and being the victim of a rape crime . . .
One is the act of an adult. The other is a child assaulted by an adult. Is that so difficult for you to understand?
EOTE
(13,409 posts)That's perhaps the most stupid thing I've EVER heard on this site. Does it hurt your brain to make such a stupid argument?q
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)What were you thinking? 14-year-olds cannot consent, by law. That's why we protect them with statutory rape laws.
Please don't do this again. Thanks.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)I'm saying she should NOT be prosecuted. As a 14 year old she should have the right to do or say anything whatsoever without ever been held accountable.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)The man should, though, since a 14-year-old cannot consent.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)She should not be prosecuted. At fourteen a person should be free to do ANYTHING without any consequences. It's their right, since they don't have functioning brains yet.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)vs those committed AGAINST the teenager show what team you play for.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)If a 14 year old can be charged with child pornography for emailing a naked picture of herself to her boyfriend...
All I'm asking people to do is state clearly and consistently exactly WHAT a teenager can and cannot be held accountable for. Everybody is ducking that question under a mask of phoney outrage.
Here's the kind of consistency I'm advocating in action:
http://triblive.com/news/westmoreland/3321021-74/law-charges-police#axzz2J0o8t1hv
Greensburg police have withdrawn summary charges against two Greensburg Salem Middle School students over a sexting incident, the chief said Friday.
The alleged incident occurred before a new Pennsylvania law took effect to regulate sending sexually explicit photos by cellphone, Chief Walter “Wally” Lyons said.
---We’re withdrawing the charges because there was some confusion,” Lyons said. “The case was reported after the new law was signed, but the incident occurred before the new law (took effect).
“We don’t believe the offense warrants prosecution under the existing law at that time, which would be a felony,” Lyons added.
Tien1985
(920 posts)But you know that, and are trolling. You sick fuck.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)You attempt to say they have no responsibility is messed up when used in this manner. It is actually very sick. She cannot by law consent.
And your equating it to theft shows extremely shallow thinking. If a 14 yo steals they should be held accountable for it. Unless it is found out that their father or an older figure has been training them for it. Then they should be seen as a victim.
Your point that a 14 yo cannot be held responsible for their actions is false. But you know that. You should try comparing apples to apples.
So there, I bit, and I am sure you got the responses you wanted out of this.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)But I'm pretty sure that wasn't actually your point.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)I'm not apologizing for him at all. I'm just concerned that that poor girl might be charged with something. No fourteen year old should ever be held accountable for any choice they make. It's just not right. They should be free to do anything they want, without any punishment.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Sometimes by parents, sometimes by law enforcement depending on the issue. Just not for being raped by people three times their age. Why the fuck would you think that 14 year olds shouldn't be held accountable for anything? You're suggesting that teenagers shouldn't have ANY responsibility or accountability? That's one of the most bone-headedly stupid things I've ever heard. Christ, never have any children, you are a horrendously bad role model for them.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,919 posts)
MattBaggins
(7,903 posts)Roman Polanski is OK
Ted Nugent is a sick pig
Hmmmm?????
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I'm not sure they really understand what they are consenting to.
If all parties are young, then I don't think they are raping each other, but I am still not convinced they truly understand what they are doing.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)getting drunk and taking dad's car for a joy ride. At fourteen kids need to explore the possibilities and learn their limits by trial and error. We should never, ever punish them no matter what choices they make. After all, they cannot consent to their actions.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you are so far out of line.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)She did nothing wrong and should be let go.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)P.S. please stay away from children,
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)I don't know how to make it clearer.
I really don't understand all you people who disagree with that conclusion.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Pig.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)God, I love beating up on people after they've been PPR'ed, lol.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)even though you pretty much did say what you mean, outright.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)That is my position.
My position is consistent, not relative to which kind of bad choice she made.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)fail again.
and the jurors are so bad on this that they can't figure out how to hide your posts.
admins will be hearing about this and then your cleverness will not seem so clever.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)I don't know how much more clearly I can say it.
All I'm asking for is consistency
For which bad choices do you think a 14 year old should be held accountable?
For which bad choices should they forgiven without consequences?
I'm saying that since they are too young to know better they should NOT be held accountable for their bad choices. Consistently. And without regard to how we, personally, feel about those bad choices.
I don't understand all the fuss. Why not just list which bad choices you think a teenager SHOULD be held accountable for. And WHY, for each bad choice.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you aren't clever, no.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Simply repeating the same thing over and over again does not, in fact, make it any more believable... a posting history however, does indeed allow a rather more revealing agenda. 
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)to do this? She's 14 - she is INCAPABLE OF CHOOSING. Honestly, how do you NOT get this?
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Since you added "not relative to which kind of bad choice she made."
Do you think a 14 yo should face consequences if caught stealing?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)The reason statutory rape is illegal is because kids that age are unable to consent specifically to sex with adults. They are too easily seduced, and therefore victimized. Shoplifting is not in any way comparable.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)don't have any. For their sakes.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)And yes, we are all happy, healthy, and well adjusted. Thank you for asking.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)sure that would have helped.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)I'd have cut off his man parts and shoved them down his throat.
And NO, I would NOT have punished her for being a victim.
We all seem to agree that the girl should NOT be prosecuted.
The ONLY thing we disagree about is how consistent we should be.
Perhaps you could clarify your position by listing those choices that SHOULD be punished, and why.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And just so we are clear, I also see right through your idiotic act here. Pathetic.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)not about how the parents should or would handle this at home. it's about a ridiculous interpretation of the law by the state. Your strawman bullshit blew up in your face and you're still digging deeper. If you say you have grand children I assume you're a fucking grown up. So figure it out. In the mean time feel free to continue flinging your feces around.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)I see your posting privileges have been revoked and for good reason. What is so puzzling is, you refer to the rapist in this post as someone who could "take advantage" of your 14 year old granddaughters. That is the crux of the issue. A 42 year old man was "taking advantage" of a child. Sexual predators "take advantage" of 14 year old girls every day. That's why we have laws that help protect those vulnerabilities, because they are, in fact, still children. To suggest this victim who was "taken advantage of" is partly responsible for what happened, is despicable.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)statutory rape himself in the past. That's why he's got such a bee up his butt about this.
He's gone, so I'm free to talk shit about his pigfucking ass.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I also don't think underage drinking should be compared to stealing. Sex, drinking, and stealing are very different behaviors with very different outcomes and potential outcomes.
Generally speaking, humans are sexual animals. We have urges and emotional needs that can be met, or we believe can be met, through sexual activity. I don't see the benefit of the government punishing the teen, but I understand the parents doing so.
Generally speaking, underage drinking is a victimless crime. The underage drinker is relatively likely hurt themselves, and this is why it is illegal. I also don't see the benefit of the government punishing the underage drinker, but I understand the parents doing so.
Stealing the safest behavior of the three, but it does have a victim. Generally speaking, we don't punish the thief their own good, we punish the thief for the benefit of the victim and potential, future victims.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)Hey, she's a kid. Cut her some slack for crying out loud.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Those are very different lists. For example, calling one's sibling a very naughty name should be addressed by the parents, as opposed to the government. Shooting someone should be addressed by the government and the parents.
azureblue
(2,146 posts)and in Europe, 14 was the age of marriage and consent.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Not that you're claiming to contradict my post.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)The man should rot in jail forever.
What more do I need to say to clarify my position?
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....and was doing so in an attempt to keep what really happened a secret.
Now, if she claims she was forced to have sex, the legal authorities can charge her with perjury even though she might have actually been raped..
I'm not sure what you were attempting to say in your post, but you ought to consider not going down that path again.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)He is 42 years old.
I cannot believe I am seeing this crap on this site.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I'm not buying the crap you are trying to sell.
obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)Your post has no place n her. Saying a minor should be prosecuted for this.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)at the girl.... wow. insightful. tell more.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Disgusting. And I'm even more disgusted that your comment is still here. Do you still have the chance to self censor?
EOTE
(13,409 posts)And you are definitely NOT a sickening defender of pedophiles and one who would blame a 14 year old girl for being raped. No sir, you are not a sickening rape apologist.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)That's my honest to God position. If you disagree with that, please feel free to say so, but don't twist my position around to look like I'm saying the opposite of what I'm saying.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Do you disagree? You must disagree because you seem to have a problem with what I'm saying. So you think that you're a disgusting piece of filth? I disagree with that statement, but apparently you and many others here disagree.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)can give consent to sex with 40yo pedophile and must be punished for it. Nope, not at all. They are totally blameless and they are definitely great and upstanding citizen who just want justice to be applied equally to pedophile rapist and his underage victim.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)My head is exploding with the cognitive dissonance.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...vs. forty-two years old. You think she might have been influenced in any way?
Well regardless of that, of course she showed incredibly bad judgment. But the whole idea behind STATUTORY rape is that the issue of consent is null and void when one of the parties is underage. So your emotional take on this is 100% irrelevant.
Thank goodness.
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)Gods above and gods below, I pray that you're just trying to get a rise out of us.
daleanime
(17,796 posts) LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Our teenagers must be taught that they can get away with anything at all...."
What specifically leads you to that conclusion?
GeorgeGist
(25,319 posts)ROBROX
(392 posts)This states people believe in creation versus evolution. I know the urban areas of this state are good the big country areas are deep RED.
Justice is not served when it becomes a POLITICAL AGENDA.
We need to set the time machine to sometime in the future to see if there will be a future or if this country will be dragged back to the DARK AGES of hate and terror...
NealK
(1,864 posts)OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)...Just another excuse to bash the South, right?
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)The appropriate action has been taken.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)it was definitely that one.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)She didn't steal liquor from her parent's bar. She fucking got raped, and you say she's accountable? Fuck you!
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)You are a sickening piece of filth.
Your statements have no place in civil society and certainly no place here.
You are vile
(I understand my post is rude and I am most definitely insulting a DU'er, but it is worth it! The poster I am responding to has posted something that should deeply offend everyone)
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)won't do much about all my nasty responses to him. He's PPR'ed, but I guarantee you he's reading this whole thread still.
So fuck YOU, Speck Tater, and the fucking pig you rode in on. Apologies to pigs.
Initech
(100,063 posts)
Edit: Nevermind, he's banned. I don't want to delete this, though. One of the most absurd piles of excrement I've ever read on DU.
alp227
(32,016 posts)nobody_special
(6 posts)I normally only read DU and don't actively participate as I have several other boards I post on but on this issue I had to chime in because so many here are missing the point of a very valid question that is often brought up here and ignored but deserves an honest answer. First off and I realize he has been banned and can't respond but he will likely read this anyway, Speck Tater while the discussion you were attempting to create was valid your method was silly and poorly handled. I will attempt to shed some light on what I think your true point was though.
First off, lets be clear the adult in this situation deserves to go under the jail and the teenager is a victim not a perpetrator. If you can't legally give consent then giving consent that you cannot legally should not be grounds for a separate charge.
Now for the real point that the understandably no so loved tater was trying to make. He was attempting to point out that we as a society adhere a double standard to legal responsibility of minors based on how icky we view situation. Like it or not that is a true statement. Which leads to the question the rotten tater was attempting to get at, at least I think he was. That being is this double standard one we should be comfortable with. My response to this is absolutely yes. Our entire political ideology has acceptance of double standards based on our definition of acceptable vs repugnant at its very core. It is a core tenant of social justice, and how many times have we all used the phrase that the world is not black and white but instead shades of gray. To be shades of grey means that you are accepting of double standards to a certain degreed so long as they fall upon the right side of where the gray happens to be in that situation. You can't have a gray world without double standards. The key is for those double standards to make sense and be based on what is in the best interest of everyone. There is no reason we should be afraid to voice this position. Although being prepared to intelligently defend it might be a good idea.
For those who are not buying this, let me change the scenario a little bit to create a hypothetical. Instead of the girl who was victim being the one who called the pedo. What if a "date" was setup by a "friend" of the girl who had an axe to grind and knew what was likely to happen, but the "friend" was also only 14. Would that friend be accountable as an accomplice? I dare say most here would agree he/she would be regardless of age. Why, because in that situation the friend's actions are on the wrong side of the icky scale regardless of the individual's age, and rightfully so as we should all find that situation unacceptable behavior warranting action.
So yes there is a double standard about when we treat teenagers as adults in legal matters and when we do not. We should be entirely comfortable with that, so long as the basis remains what is right.
As for the rotten tater, I am not sure you should have been banned for the point you were trying to make but your method was so poorly handled that banning you for your own good was likely a good call.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)The dearly departed tater, and you (the newborn spud??) tripped himself up and this is why: a 14 year old can rob a store, steal a bike, even commit murder, and there are legal consequences because they are acts of commission. We can argue whether there should be adult level punishment handed out, but that's a topic for another day.
In most states, however, a 14 year old cannot consent to sex, especially with a 42-year old man, and therefore must not be punished for being raped. . There's nothing "icky" about this. It's really very clear. Some people have problems accepting that we have age of consent laws, and I find that puzzling.
JustJoe
(694 posts)
bench scientist
(1,107 posts)
appleannie1
(5,067 posts)be acceptable and the other not? I agree that he should have known better and turned her down but she knew full well what she was doing too.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Fucking stunned.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)teens are fully capable of making their own sexual decisions for themselves. Any suggestion otherwise is damned as prudery.
When it's convenient to label a teen as an autonomous decision maker, then they are.
This has been my observation over many years here on DU.
My own opinion is that teenagers don't have fully developed decision making capabilities. They need to be protected by law. And they should also rightly be subject to rules & disciplinary actions by their parents.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)recognize that and address the age spread, and it has to be more than a few years difference to prosecute.
But it's like the male privlege thing, people don't want to admit that some people inherently have more power in some situations and should not abuse it. Amazing to me, people are willing to make the kid equally responsible to a 42 year old man.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)you mention YES INDEED.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)WTF is this friend of the Dad's doing giving out his number and making plans to meet her in secret? Very manipulative stuff.
If this is like 90% of these cases, he groomed her for this by encouraging a secret relationship, pretended he was in love, and manipulated her. It's not hard to do to a teenager who's not your kid. They have no idea that people who appear normal can be so fucked up- especially family and friends.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)Should the girl have been spanked for her misbehavior?
Number23
(24,544 posts)And I would go so far to say that includes murder as well. A 14-year old simply does not have the same decision making capabilities as an adult. Even their "consent" should be qualified. So those saying that this 14-year old "consented" to sex with a grown assed man are just beyond any realm of common sense and basic human decency, imho.
And believe me, it gives me no pleasure to say this after reading about that hateful 15-year old monster that killed his entire family and texted a pic of his dead mother to his girlfriend. If he was 25, I'd say that he should be put UNDER the damn jail for all eternity. But at 15, I am just not at all convinced that he deserves the same punishment as an adult. The mentality of a teenager is just too different. They are still children, even though they sure as hell believe otherwise.
I have no doubt that one day, the full force of what he's done will come crashing down on him. And it will not be pretty.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)they keep leaving them.
we are even talking about it in meta. almost everyone is horrified, and yet, the juries --another planet.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'm hoping it is just trolls on juries which cause these results.
One year, 1000 posts... that seems reasonable and may help.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)and just knew it wouldn't get hidden. I did my best - but still got only one vote.
wryter2000
(46,036 posts)Nice. 
Response to wryter2000 (Reply #13)
Post removed
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)MineralMan
(146,286 posts)The gnurrs out from the woodwork come.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)because they like the attention. Let's not call fucking seven year old kids rape either, right?
(*or what people would characterize as flirting- when they needed to defend a rape)
A cut off age has been determined, it needs to be set, or it's open season on all kids. This guy "knew full well" it was rape, and he's more powerful. Grown men have no problem saying no to kids if they WANT to. It's unrealistic to assume because this kid made one phone call that she is a seductress. Any 42 year old guy setting up meetings with his friends young daughter knows damn well he's crossing some serious fucking lines. The kid is probably stupid enough to think he in in love with her, and they are like Romeo and Juliet. That's how these sad fucks operate.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)Ok completely rewriting it to make it gender neutral. Young teens are very easily seduced by adults who know how to do it. We as a society recognize that and protect them from adults who would take advantage of them.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)while almost all of us are horrified.
the jurors are coming to opposite conclusions.
wtf?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)These guys are all over the Internet.
OldHippieChick
(2,434 posts)we could censor the OP w/out having to whine
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)why would we want to censor her?
it's the second poster and other poster here that have posted the awful stuff.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)You think we're 'whining'? Wow.
redqueen
(115,103 posts) gollygee
(22,336 posts)and she really meant PPs, not OP, because there was absofreakinglutely nothing wrong with the OP.
OldHippieChick
(2,434 posts)in my thinking that we can easily censor someone by simply ignoring their ignorance as opposed to "whining" about why they weren't censored. And yes, I said "whine" because I don't understand continuing to post on what one believes to be an offensive post when it would be so much easier to simply stop posting. But then, maybe that's too easy.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)She went to the cops so obviously she did not really want to do it. She was raped in my opinion.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)Should the girl have been spanked when she returned home?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Don't you DARE defend that disgusting pig fucker of a rape apologist.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)So how can a minor be an accomplice if they cannot consent? The logic doesn't work.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)are you suggesting that these people actually have fuctioning brains??
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)But it looks like they're hoping to change that
Disgusting
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)That seems to be where this is going. I could see them trying to set an "age of reason" type thing. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic though, hopefully they'll just overturn the law in question.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)Did a defense attorney write this law?
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)that everyone forgot about until a clever lawyer found it to use as grounds for an appeal. Even a 100 years ago I'm surprised it was passed at all, though.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Festivito
(13,452 posts)Gee gosh darn golly, da stoopid, it hoortz.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Many, many years ago I read an article about a judge that ruled that a man was not guilty of molesting a five year old girl because she seduced him
It seems many men fear the power of the female and have no self-control
Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #6)
Post removed
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)white_wolf
(6,238 posts)1. Does the law really say that if minors consent then they are accomplishes and 2. If so then the question will be can minors consent? The court could possibly strike down the law as a whole, but they'd need to have a basis for it stronger than simply saying it is a bad disgusting law, which it undoubtedly is. Courts, especially in conservative areas, are wary of changing laws since they often feel they should leave that to the legislate, which begs the question why the hell the legislate haven't gotten rid of this horrible law by now? Logically I don't think minors can consent and thus this law should be struck down on that basis, but I don't have much faith in TN.
temporary311
(955 posts)Either she can legally give consent or she can't, she can't simultaneously do both.
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)So if a minor testifies that an adult had sex with them it points to statutory rape. Yet if the same minor says they consented their testimony is basically nullified as an accomplice.
And people here support this??????????????????????????????????????????
The idea is that in a person is underage they CANNOT consent to something, they do not have the maturity and responsibility to do so. The ADULT is therefore solely responsible for the action as they are the ones who (should) know better and know the minor cannot give consent no matter how clear or knowledgeable they seem to be.
Is this difficult to understand?
They basis of this travesty is from the idea No force=no rape. Do we support that too???
NealK
(1,864 posts) white_wolf
(6,238 posts)BainsBane
(53,031 posts)Truly shocking.
Response to redqueen (Original post)
Post removed
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)to give consent. Should we teach 14 year olds how credit cards work and let them sign up on their own too. Kids are showing they know how to use guns so let's allow them to join the military....
How far do we want to twist this logic?
demmiblue
(36,841 posts)grooming of their prey.
WTH is wrong with you?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)blame women, for mens behaviors.
here on du
a progressive forum.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)there are only two on this thread with that god awful mentality.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)Those Neanderthal attitudes are sick.
demmiblue
(36,841 posts) CreekDog
(46,192 posts)maybe we shouldn't even post here anymore.
i mean, at DU.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
At Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:02 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
In today's world some 14 year olds know more about sex than some 50 year olds. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2258513
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/? com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
This is all part of a continuing apology for child rape and an effort to blame the victim.
JURY RESULTS
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:14 PM, and the Jury voted 4-2 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: That's a silly alert.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Implies 14 year old has some culpability.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: This child rape apologist should be PPR'd.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: While I do not agree that knowledge of sexual matters, matter on statutory rape ... the statement is true.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)after those first two responses, I was worried about my blood pressure.
I'm glad to see that many others had the stomach to deal with those noxious posts. I was just floored.
There aren't as many defending the victim blaming here as on the Polanski threads, so things seem to be getting better.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Response to redqueen (Original post)
Xithras This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)A man raped a 14 year old girl. She is the victim, not the perpetrator. Statutory rape laws exist because children cannot consent.
dairydog91
(951 posts)No doubt, every parent with a high-school age kid will be glad to know that there is no risk of their children engaging in risky sex, since teenagers would never willingly seek out or agree to have sex.
Statutory rape laws exist because children cannot consent.
Statutory rape laws create the legal presumption that people under the age of majority cannot consent, except nobody except Mother Grundy actually thinks that teenagers cannot mentally (as opposed to legally) consent to sex. If people actually believed that anyone under the age of majority is incapable of agreeing to sex, and that therefore anyone who has sex with them is forcing them to have nonconsensual sex, i.e. rape, we'd be sending SWAT teams into high schools to prevent the scourge of 17 year olds who've agreed to rape each other.
If Tennessee created a statutory presumption that 14 year olds cannot consent to an abortion, would you advocate locking up any doctor who performed an abortion on them (at the 14 year old's request) on the grounds that they performed a surgical procedure on an unwilling victim?
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)He was an adult male rapist.
Response to BainsBane (Reply #143)
Post removed
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Last edited Fri Jan 25, 2013, 04:24 PM - Edit history (1)
for the crime that victimizes her is SICK.
Response to geek tragedy (Reply #163)
Xithras This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)Get it!!!!!! She is a victim!!!!!!!!!!
Squinch
(50,947 posts)NealK
(1,864 posts)Your post is a perfect example.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I forgot you can't answer in this thread. I think this girl was raped. A minor can not consent to sex with an adult.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Being raped by someone else is in NO way comparable to getting hurt by getting your hand blown off by your own explosive. Try this: "suggestintg that teenagers should not be held responsible for getting mugged and robbed is naive and patronizing." Does that work for you? It does not for me. neither does holding a teenager responsible for the actions of a 40 yr old man?
Rereading, maybe you are saying a 40 ys old man has the self control and responsibility of a homemade bomb? in which case you also are saying a female teen has more control and self responsibility than a 40 yr old man. incredible.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)EVER.
Appalling.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)yikes. just yikes.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)spread is wider. Usually nothing happens if both are similar in age. Interesting this is news to you, yet you can spew on the subject as if you were informed.
Now that you know, can you figure out why a 42 year old and a 14 year old is legally different than two 17 year olds?
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)and sexual assault . . . I don't even know what you are. You obviously find it terribly inconvenient that the law "creates" a presumption that adults can't violate children.
Response to BainsBane (Reply #96)
Xithras This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)I'm saying the man in this case is a rapist and the girl a victim. What's next? Trying 4 years olds for being raped? Pedophiles always think the children consent. That's part of the stick.
randome
(34,845 posts)If they were and helped the underage performers, then they should have been found guilty and the performers not.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,306 posts)So of course consent is a consideration in it.
The offences, in decreasing order of severity, are:
Rape of a child - sex with a child below 13. This is a Class A felony, and consent is not an issue. Aggravated rape is also a Class A felony.
Rape - sex without consent. This is a Class B felony.
Aggravated statutory rape - sex with a child of 13 or more, but under 18, when the perpetrator is more than 10 years older than the victim. This is a Class D felony. Consent is not an issue in the definition; but, since rape of anyone 13 or over is held to be worse than it, it's clear it will be used as a charge in cases when consent is held to have been given.
The rape of a child law exists because children under 13 cannot consent. The statutory rape law exists because sex with a child between 13 and 17 (inclusive) who consents is held to be less severe than sex with an unconsenting victim.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)rickjliberal1946sef
(7 posts)And the war on women continues.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And three different juries have stood up for the proposition that teenagers who are statutorily raped are to blame.
ohiosmith
(24,262 posts)Last edited Fri Jan 25, 2013, 03:03 PM - Edit history (1)
At Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:20 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
One of the sickest things I've read recently
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2258765
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
This guy is a repeat disruptor, known as "Death Threat Guy" to the mods. Just flagging him up for the MIRT.
If you're aware of him then please hide. However the I suspect the MIRT will take care of him fairly soon.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jan 25, 2013, 01:35 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said:
This whole thread is an embarrassment with people willfully misrepresenting what others are saying. This post is nothing compared to some of the things posted. People are too geared for instantaneous self-righteous rage and too often msihear each other. Enough already.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: What does being Death Threat Guy have to do with this post? I will tell you: nothing.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: First post and it's known that he's a repeat disrupter? I dont think so.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I don't know if the alerter's allegations are true or not. The post however is not deserving of being hid! Leave it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Nothing in this post suggests this is DTG, and the alerter gave no evidence. As such I can't in good conscience vote to hide. If it's DTG MIRT will get him, they check a new poster's first posts routinely.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Response to ohiosmith (Reply #132)
CJCRANE This message was self-deleted by its author.
ohiosmith
(24,262 posts) Response to ohiosmith (Reply #267)
CJCRANE This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to CJCRANE (Reply #266)
CJCRANE This message was self-deleted by its author.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)He's checked out.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)same person as a previous troll.
REP
(21,691 posts)I mean, even Death Threat Guy gets it.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I hope the court does the right thing and get rid of this stupid law. A 14 year old can not consent to sex with an adult. Just horrible!
Initech
(100,063 posts)
Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)Not all of it, but far too much of it.
Tien1985
(920 posts)Of jury fail going on earlier. I am rec'ing this tread so that it will get a late bump for the afternoon crowd. People need to see who the trolls are.
This has been disgusting. So much for my lunch break.
procon
(15,805 posts)Rape is a level one crime, a category that includes murder, robbery, and assault. Such heinous acts do not -- on ANY level! -- compare with a misdemeanor like shoplifting. Those who have tried to argue that there is no difference are making a self serving attempt to justify child abuse; perhaps speaking from personnal experience to excuse their own behaviors?
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)Response to redqueen (Original post)
Demo_Chris This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)You'll want to vomit.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Read more.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Anyway... I enjoy reading your posts, I have learned a great deal, but please take it down a notch.
randome
(34,845 posts)As a society, we set the bar for what is allowed to a point where the vast majority of children are protected. You are really reaching if you think "it's just sex" applies to everyone regardless of age or maturity level.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)I would like to see a calm and reasoned national discussion on this issue. And one that starts from a health perspective rather than a religious one.
randome
(34,845 posts)How low do you want to go?
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Consider speed limits. Should they apply to everyone or only to those who are careless drivers?
It's the same situation. The laws are set up to protect those who are not 'competent' enough to go through a sexual experience. We have no way of knowing who is capable and who is not so the law draws a line in the sand to be safe.
Having sex with a 14 y/o is illegal. You have no way of knowing whether she initiated it or not. At that age, a minor's 'testimony' should be considered suspect since she is most likely not mature enough to understand the emotional aspects of sex.
You don't know that she was mature enough. She doesn't know. Her testimony is, and should be, suspect. But the 42 y/o man did know. There is no question about that.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)What the hell, it's like you are trying to start a fight or something. I am deleting my original comment.
Lone_Star_Dem
(28,158 posts)Which is the reason for statutory rape laws. The premise behind it is a teenager under a certain age cannot consent to sex with an adult over a certain age since the adult should know better than to be having sex with a person who is not yet mentally mature. Basically, it's too easy to mentally manipulate a teenager into consenting to do things they may not have decided to do without the manipulation. As a former teenage girl and the parent of one, I can attest to the ease with which one can manipulate a young mind with the right tactics.
Also, the man was a friend of her father's. He knew full well she was 14 and that he was breaking the law, yet he still chose to do so.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)In essence you're saying, child predators can begin seducing 14 year old girls with impunity. I hope you don't ever have a daughter.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)I would like to see a rational discussion that begins and ends with mental and physical health as the foundation. I would, for example, like to see a national standard for sexual education. I would like to see nationwide access to birth control and reproductive health services. I would like to see SCIENCE replace religion as the determiner of our sexual morality. And I could go on, but hopefully now this is clearer.
I do not support perverts preying on kids. I DO SUPPORT removing the moral stigma we currently attach to the sexual choices people make. I am tired of reading about girls killing themselves because they got slut-shamed.
randome
(34,845 posts)We need to have boundaries to protect those who are not able to cope with early sexual awareness. Not every teenager is ready for sex at 14.
The boundaries are currently set at 18, 16 for some states. I don't see that those should be moved.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)to be able to give consent.
Christ on a crutch - why is that so hard to understand??
And yes, you are offensive.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)If this was your 14 yr kid, would you feel the same way? Would you feel your 14 yr old daughter needs to take responsibility for her actions? Or that she should be taught a lesson because as a teenager she may have employed poor decision making? If so, I want you to find the nearest pedophile (you can look them up online) and have your daughter call them for a ride (and see how quickly you change your tune on this).
A 42 yr old man "consenting" to have sex with a child is a pedophile--whether said child "complies" or not. Full stop.
NealK
(1,864 posts)
libodem
(19,288 posts)And the child should not be held accountable for any ridiculous consent or conspiracy to co-comment of this crime. It is the man's fault. He should have known better.
The girl should have counciling and a trama assessment. I hate for people to be placed in a victim role but in this case it seems to be the most psychologically safe position for her to assume. Hopefully she will have decent help to be re-empowered as a strong healthy woman, with firm boundries, from whomever wants access to her body.
Tragic things do happen to young children that set them up for abuse. Wanting to be older, and seen as desirable at adolescents, is a dangerous vulnerability. Oh, I hope she gets help and that she did not get pregnant.
That man deserves to be on a registered offender list, and kept away from any kids, after a long jail sentence.
I like chemical castration, myself. Shot of depo and some Melaril, ought to cool his jets.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)Statutory rape is still rape.
deathrind
(1,786 posts)...14yr old had commited some or of henious violent crime then what? Why is it we treat people under 18 as adults only for certain acts?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)And Wilbur does a takeoff from Moffett Field this afternoon...don't be late
southerncrone
(5,506 posts) 
The War on Women is alive & well, actually thriving, here in TN.
I don't hold out a lot of hope in this changing to protect the "victim". I fear they will somehow use it to re-enforce this lunacy.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)don't let them get you down.
Lone_Star_Dem
(28,158 posts)In this case Tennessee is in the right. 
southerncrone
(5,506 posts)But, hope you are right.
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)Go Vols
(5,902 posts)was he was considered a multiple offender due to multiple sex acts/rape during the two days they were together.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)No other words come to mind, really.
get the red out
(13,461 posts)That seems to be the goal of the right.
jmowreader
(50,553 posts)Between their abstinence-only sex ed, the church's belief that the right time for mothers to tell their daughters about sex is the morning before the wedding, and Tennessee's history of 14-year-old brides, the girl may not have known she can't consent to sex with a man old enough to be her father.
I say make sure she knows she can't legally consent to this, and why, and let her go.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)It seemed like half of Hollywood blamed the 13 year old victim, who he plied with Qaaludes and anally raped.
Remember Whoopi Goldberg wondering whether it rose to the level of "rape-rape"?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)She wanted sex, she called a guy and got it. Makes me laugh to see reference to a "victim", no more a victim than if the guy on the other end of the line had been 14.
Hopefully the judges are rational and throw this out.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)demmiblue
(36,841 posts)And that place is too disgusting to even try and imagine or figure out.
Personally, I think that some of the respondents are pedophiles (in action or in mind)... there cannot be any other answer.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)It's hypocrisy a mile wide though when a boy does this and it's "atta boy" but not the opposite.
Really though, it seems victimless to me. Still a crime, but one of the necessary laws that doesn't necessarily need a victim
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)What about a millionaire talking an 11 year old into doing it because she's get a room full of toys out of it- she's able to consent too?
And no, most of us are NOT "atta boy" when this happens to 14 year old boys. Maybe you are.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)It's like saying prostitution is a victimless crime (which it isn't).
And that you claim that it's some sort of double-standard because people say "atta boy" to 14 yr old male CHILDREN, doesn't make it right. We (and when I read about that happening, I am) should be appalled. That's the double-standard. We shouldn't be patting this guy on the back for getting a 14 yr old to sleep with him just because some do so for male children. Those that do give the "atta boy" need to examine their definition of pedophilia and why it's okay for boys to be molested but not girls--that's another double-standard.
And the question no one seems to be asking is, why is a 14 yr old child "attracted" to a 42 yr old man. Often when girls her age act out this way, particularly with much older males, they've been sexually abused prior to this act.
And I want to reiterate, no CHILD, male or female, can consent and the adult should have said no. The onus is not on the child to make the correct decisions in situations like this, it's the adult.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)But if you've ever experienced another culture, you'd see that it's really about societal attitude. In Japan, they would not see this as something where there is necessarily a victim.
Every nation determines their attitude toward this based on their culture. In some Japanese and Chinese provinces, they would scoff at the notion.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)shitty stuff. your point?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)If you've ever been there. Their kids are better educated and have lower teen pregnancy and overall delinquency rates than we do.
Lumping them in with tribal cultures is inaccurate.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)why 43% of 18-34 yr old men think sex is icky and 58% of women 18-34 think sex is icky and they play computer games stalking and raping little girls.
thank you for your insight
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)where societal standards and the law say a child cannot legally consent to having sex with an adult.
To argue that it's legal in other countries is a moot point and, frankly, an argument to condone pedophilia and statutory rape. Your posts are just full of fail.
Squinch
(50,947 posts)cannibalism A-OK for us too.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i would like to see one woman that would not be all over a grown womans ass fucking a 14 yr old boy.
you may be all into the "atta boy". but then, that would be your issue. not ours.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)compare the juror's defense of the post to other defenses in this thread, where a similar post was defended.
same thinking, same type of language, same reasoning, same terminology.
but i have no idea.
At Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:22 PM you sent an alert on the following post:
She should not be prosecuted, ridiculous. The idea that she's a victim is absurd
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2261452
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
YOUR COMMENTS:
The poster is actually saying this is okay.
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:31 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This whole case is abhorrent. But the poster is not attacking anyone, not violating TOS, not doing anything but expressing an opinion. I don't like it either, but that doesn't mean it should be hidden by anyone but those offended...that is what your "hide thread" button is for.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)Raped by a 42-year-old MAN. She is a middle school child.
What a shameful post.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)I'm 45. Jesus, 30-year-olds look like kids to me.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Deep13
(39,154 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)We have different opinions, that's all
Btw I'd like to thank the jury for allowing me to express mine, even though most of them maybe didn't agree
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)have you lost your marbles?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)You are letting emotion and outrage cloud reason here.
I said that this should be illegal, but that she was no victim. I would put this in the same category as counterfeiting and SS fraud as crimes that should be crimes but don't necessarily have a victim.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)on this very thing, they were "more evolved" than us.
you said it was the same as if she was with another minor.
so, you say all this crap and now you're offended that dozens of us are calling you on the BS?
and yes, we've alerted and checked the Terms of Service box.
and you are carrying on an argument that a few other sad members are saying, one of them banned today, another's post hidden and they are blocked from the thread, but you are picking up the baton for both of them it seems.
how um, well, i don't have words for what it seems like.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)What you said:
What I said:
What you said:
Did I?
What I said:
About the other posters, I have no idea what they said. I didn't read the entire thread, only the OP. It sounds like the jury thought it was okay. I'm not attacking you, just expressing a viewpoint.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that minors should not be able to consent? so kids of any age can make these decisions to have sex, no big deal?
I'm not sure where you're going with equating kids having consensual sex with each other, vs grownups pursuing sex with kids - it appears you think kids are fair game for adults and it would't be harmful for kids to have relations with adults when they are thirty or forty years older? If not, please clarify.
You seem to think there's no victim here, would you say the same if this girl was 6 or 7 years old and called this man up?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)She was a victim of a crime. Statutory rape. The fact she may have been complicit does not excuse the crime, nor does it make her any less of a victim. In fact, it makes her more of a victim. She was victimized by a predatory 42 year old sleaze bag, friend of her father. She is also a victim of her own stupidity, which was probably a result of poor parenting.
NealK
(1,864 posts)"She wanted sex, she called a guy and got it." A 14 y/o???
Squinch
(50,947 posts)Iggo
(47,549 posts)A real life honest to goodness rape apologist!
She wanted it?
Deep13
(39,154 posts)Isn't the whole point of statutory rape that a minor cannot consent? How the hell does this make sense to anyone with a functioning synapse?
dsc
(52,155 posts)the fact is it could be a very good thing this case was taken up. As the law currently stands, absent some other evidence, no one can be convicted of statutory rape in TN on the testimony of a child victim. The precedent was upheld as recently as 1960. Hopefully the court will get it right this time.
Warpy
(111,244 posts)The whole point of statutory rape laws is that children under a certain age don't have all the facts and therefore can't legally consent to sex.
They can't sign contracts or get married without a parental cosign for an excellent reason: they are too young.
What part of not fucking children didn't that middle aged SOB not get?
What part does the Tennessee lege not get?
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Look, let's wave some magic wand and say with 100 percent certainty that this girl wanted to have sex. Of course, it is ludicrous, as most 14 years olds cannot decide what to have on their pizza, much less consent to sex, but let's say the power of magical thinking of behalf of 40 year old men has ensured that yes, this 14 year old actually wants to have sex.
Guess what, it does not matter what a minor wants, it is still A CRIME!
A CRIME
A CRIME
If you still do not get that, repeat this mantra until you do. I would suggest banging your head into a wall, but frankly, if you are stupid enough to believe a crime did not occur, I do not want some hospital wasting time trying to put your brains back into your skull!
Teenagers can want things really bad, does that mean we let them get it, no! Anyone who says this girl has any blame should hand over their wallets, credit cards included to any 14 year old teenager they see at the mall!
Or better yet, let them drive your car, you know, that nice new car that you bought to hide your small (censored)
Or let them be in your house when you are out. Keys to the liquor cabinet, access to all your pills and cigarettes, the whole 9.
Of course, the tragedy is, some men would do this if they thought they would get laid.
And for the men;s right's advocates out there, I was in Tampa bay when the whole "sexy teacher" BS with Debra Lafave went loose. I cannot speak for all feminists, but I am sure there were many mothers/aunts/sisters/grandmothers etc. who wanted to string miss "hot teacher" up from the flagpole, because yes, it was RAPE!, one of the few ways a male can actually be raped. Said kid in the Lafave case got made fun of so much by the media, he hides now...because people thought he was a (censored word for homosexual) for telling his mom what happened, instead of getting more...Yes, we have our first male slut shaming!
So, no, havign sex with teenagers is not cool, and no, you do not get to blame the 14 year old. The next person that blames the girl needs to hand over the wallet, keys, and anything else to some 14 year old, after all, you just cannot resists giving them what they want, right?
Deep13
(39,154 posts)This is to eliminate the need to figure out to what degree it was immaturity on the victim's part or subtle coercion on the adult's part that caused her to acquiesce.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I really hate to say this, being from Texas myself, but it just seems that most of the South has really been regressing back to it's pre-Jim Crow state since the end of the '90s.....(Well, with some exceptions that I feel should be noted, such as North Carolina and a good chunk of Virginia, especially NoVa, which are actually still moving forward with the rest of the nation. And, of course, Austin's the most obvious one, they've been liberal since the '60s. )