Why victim-blaming is ALWAYS wrong.

[redqueen]

Whether you think women shouldn't get drunk at parties, or shouldn't take sexy pictures (unless they intend to make them public), or underage girls should share the blame for being raped by dint of their having "consented" to having sex (before they are even capable of giving informed consent, of course )..

What victim-blaming does is PROTECT the ABUSERS, RAPISTS, and any other person who is CLEARLY in the wrong.

Do you honestly believe that these victims haven't absorbed the message that THEY WILL BE BLAMED?

Do you really not see that this is a major contributing factor in their not ever reporting having been wronged?

Do we want more women and children to come forward so that we can do a better job of ensuring criminals are punished?

Then how about we stop the desperate effort to find some reason, ANY reason, to make if seem like she should be ashamed of being victimized.

[Pab Sungenis]

1. Tell me this the next time a kid

who's been bullied to within an inch of his life takes a gun to school.

Suddenly you and everyone else here will be singing a different tune, I'll bet.

[LiberalLoner]

2. In that case it's a former victim who decides to make other people victims - usually

quite a few innocent people who never bullied that kid, are the ones hurt.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Whisp]

3. excuse me but

w.t.f.?.

[Pab Sungenis]

6. You heard me.

Suddenly, when a bullying victim becomes a school shooter, it's all about blaming the original victim. The bullies who forced the kid's hand are blameless little angels.

Let's apply the same rules across the board, shall we?

[redqueen]

10. Who do you think forces rapists' hands?

Who forces ex boyfriends to post things on revenge porn sites?

[Pab Sungenis]

15. No one.

Just watch your language. "Why blaming a rape victim is ALWAYS wrong" would be better. Because most of the people who agree that it's wrong to blame a rape victim will be more than happy to blame the victims of bullying who strike back.

[ellisonz]

70. +1

Mega-

[October]

64. Maybe you should watch your own language.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

94. Are you posting this from the local pub?

[CrispyQ]

150. DUzy!

[Bake]

139. I must disagree with you on this picture issue.

There's no way it is in any way comparable to rape.

I do NOT blame the victims of the revenge photo thing, but seriously, if you don't want your pic to end up on the internet, DON'T TAKE ONE. If you consent to having an intimate photo taken, you have to know in advance there's the possibility it will end up on the internet. Kinda like the Congressman tweeting his junk.

Bake

[geek tragedy]

53. yes, people get blamed for committing murder, Sorry that offends your sensibilities.

Also, no one is 'forced' to commit murder.

[Rex]

103. Funny how they try and completely derail the thread from the getgo.

Well, not funny...kinda pathetic really.

[Rex]

101. Nonsense, the bullies most certainly DO get blamed!

Ever worked in education? Doesn't sound like it.

[Pab Sungenis]

105. Read about Taft.

And Columbine.
And any of a myriad of others.

[geek tragedy]

106. Generally, people don't heap scorn on dead children at their funerals.

Of course, you are an exception.

[Rex]

112. Unbelievable.

How did this thread go from talking about rape enablers...to bullies in school? Me thinks the tangent didn't work out that well since bullies in 99% of the cases DO face the music with school administrators.

The idea of NOT blaming the prime starter in any tragic event is a canard.

[geek tragedy]

119. Some people need to make everything about them and their agenda.

And, of course, to justify murder where appropriate.

Glad I'm not within gunshot range of them.

[Rex]

108. Yes a handful of schools out of thousands and thousands

Bullies do face the music, when they do get away with it then yes we see things like Columbine. You are derailing the topic from the very beginning.

This is about RAPE and enablers...NOT BULLIES in school. Why don't you start a new thread on it and let us discuss the topic in question?

[cali]

147. sorry. go out and fucking murder people because you were bullied and you lose your victim

status completely and totally. fuck murderers. they're far worse than kids who bully others.

[redqueen]

4. SO MUCH FAIL.

The minute a rape victim takes a gun and starts mowing down men, THEN she SHOULD be blamed.

[RC]

36. So after telling their parents, the school teachers, the Principal and sometimes, even the police...

And receiving no help or protection, the victim then take matters into their own hands and are suddenly to blame as the aggressor.
The long time victim decides to even the score with some needed self-defense, because no one else will will help them against the bullies.
Kinda like DU, where someone is goaded into blowing up against one or more bullies. After the Hide, the gloating of the bullies begins.

Got it.

[redqueen]

41. SO not surprised to see you joining in with the derailment...

man.

[RC]

48. My post was unisex.

And still you see it is the man's fault for not seeing things your way.

The victim lashing out in anger and frustration is still the victim.

[geek tragedy]

57. Ugh, first the rape apologists now the murder apologists. nt

[geek tragedy]

62. Your use of the Jimmy Carter quote is ironic given your cheerleading of murder

of students.

[RC]

71. I am in no way cheering leading of murder.

People can be pushed to doing extreme actions, as a last resort. It happens, deal with it.

[geek tragedy]

72. you refer to those MURDERS as "needed self-defense.'

No, it's fucking murder. And you are an apologist for murder.

[RC]

76. Because no one would come forward to help. They run out of options to stop the bullying,

and take matters into their own hands
It is called mitigating circumstances. It is part of our law.

[geek tragedy]

79. "self-defense" and "necessity" are excuses, not mitigating circumstances

And, just to be clear:

You and Pab are objecting to people who blame the shooters, while you yourselves blame the people who get shot.

News flash: Many murder victims are not angels, who in fact did commit some kind of wrong against their murderers. That does not mean it is not murder.

And you are comparing murderers to rape victims.

[RC]

89. You are putting words in my mouth, I did not say

I have said nothing about rape. I am talking about bullies in general and their victims. And how far the victims are sometimes pushed before they take action on their own defense. Nothing more.

[geek tragedy]

90. This thread is about blaming rape victims for being raped.

And you and Pab said "but but but kids who get bullied and shoot people wind up getting blamed for shooting those people."

[Chorophyll]

110. Are you seriously saying it's okay to spray people with gunfire

because you've been bullied? Are you seriously calling that "self defense?"

[geek tragedy]

111. No, they're saying that you shoud only blame the people who got shot.

Not the shooters.

Because, nuance.

[Chorophyll]

121. Oh, I get it. Stupid kids, parading around openly where *real* victims are trying to shoot.

What were they thinking???

It really pisses me off that this thread got so thoroughly and instantly derailed. Unbelievable.

[RC]

116. Where did you get that from?

I have never said anything of the sort. Stop making up shit, OK?

All I have said is that some people have been pushed that far. I never said it was OK.

[Chorophyll]

122. Where did I get that from?

Here:

Because no one would come forward to help. They run out of options to stop the bullying,
and take matters into their own hands
It is called mitigating circumstances. It is part of our law.

What am I "making up?"

[RC]

134. You are making up your own meanings to what I said.

In other words, you are twisting my words. Even when I clarify, you still twist.
Your purpose is not to discuss. Your purpose is to make me lose my cool. To get me angry enough to say something hideable. Well, that ain't a gonna happen.

[Chorophyll]

144. I merely quoted your own words back at you.

If you call that "twisting," so be it. Nighty night.

[RC]

145. Yeah and...

Back up to this post that started that sequence. That is what I am referencing and you are misrepresenting.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022259349#post110

[geek tragedy]

126. You said it was "necessary" and "self-defense"

If you shoot someone out of necessity and self-defense, you're not legally culpable.

[RC]

157. What are your views on what we did to the people in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Bombing wedding parties? Obama's drones killing innocent civilians? Were/are those murder or not?

No, wait... What are your views on bullying? Do you have any experience?

[cali]

148. and they deserve what they get after they make the decision to murder. fuck them.

[bettyellen]

69. Bullshit. It's either self defense immediately after an attack or aggression

There's no such thing as self defense after an attack is over.

Bullshit derailing of thread.

[RC]

73. Disagreeing is not derailing of thread.

This is a discussion board. Everyone being in agreement is an echo chamber. That is why DU has Safe Havens.

[geek tragedy]

75. You and Pab came in here on a discussion of blaming the victim of rape to complain

that people blame Harris/Kliebold types for shooting people.

[bettyellen]

81. And mansplained to the OP that she's doing it wrong because revenge murder is good!

Crazy pointless bullshit.
Derailing.

[geek tragedy]

82. Well, Pab also explained how Obama is like the KKK.

Totally unironic, in a Glenn Beck sense.

[RC]

83. My world is not black and white.

There is seldom one answer that fits all.
The OP was designed to stir stuff up. That is what it did and now the sharks circle the dissenting opinions.

[geek tragedy]

85. Classic projection. The OP was about blaming rape victims and you and Pab

came in here to mansplain to her that she had it wrong because of course bullied kids who shoot people are victims who should not be blamed.

[RC]

98. A differing viewpoint is not projection.

"mansplain"? Isn't that being a bit sexist?

Those bullied kids who shoot their tormenters are still victims of those bullies. That did not change. Just because they were not being bullied at the moment of retaliation, doe not necessarily change it from being self-defense.

I am not saying it is right or wrong. All I an saying is that it happens.
Please stop trying to tell me me what I think. You obviously do not know.

[geek tragedy]

99. And their bullies are also victims. Murder victims.

Not an analogous situation to a situation where there is one clear victim and one clear victimizer.

And here's what your fellow murder apologist Pab wrote:

Just watch your language. "Why blaming a rape victim is ALWAYS wrong" would be better. Because most of the people who agree that it's wrong to blame a rape victim will be more than happy to blame the victims of bullying who strike back.

Note: mansplaining is typically when men are condescending to women.

Note 2: Note that Pab is whining about people blaming the school shooters. He is a murder apologist.

[LiberalLoner]

52. +1

[EOTE]

5. Victim blaming only ensures that MORE Columbines occur.

Victims of bullying at schools need to be able to tell adults about their situation and adults need to do something about it. If kids feel that they'll be blamed if they speak out about the bullying they receive, then they're more likely to keep that anger pent up until they do something horrific like a school shooting.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. The FBI didn't conclude the columbine shooting was a result of bullying/revenge.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2004/04/the_depressive_and_the_psychopath.html

took them a couple years to get around to releasing that, but there it is.

[EOTE]

158. That does nothing to suggest that victims who get punished because of their plight won't lash out in

other ways.

[AtheistCrusader]

159. You used Columbine as an example.

I merely objected because much hay was made of the 'bullying' thing in that case, something their classmates have been 'blamed', I feel unfairly for, for years and years now.

Can bullying lead to a frustrated, violent reaction? Sure. But that example wasn't it.

(Completely aside from the fact that bullying is wrong, and should be ended wherever possible.)

[EOTE]

160. I said "more Columbines" meaning that ignoring victims will create more tragedies like that one.

Also, Eric and Dylan WERE bullied. There is much documentation which show that, even entries into their journals. Their classmates also told of the numerous times they were slammed into lockers and even a time where they had a cup of feces thrown at them. So to act as if all the tales of bullying initially relayed after the massacre were all made up is disingenuous at best.

[AtheistCrusader]

163. Not all made up, but

They also knowingly bullied others.

Nothing in the FBI report indicated any sort of 'extreme' bullying that might influence a normal person in this manner. They were not backed into some sort of corner, with no option but to lash out.

At best, in this case (not in all) the presence of bullying appears incidental, not the cause.

[EOTE]

164. I can't account for the FBI report, but again, they were bullied pretty viciously.

I don't consider having feces thrown in your face or being repeatedly slammed into lockers as good natured fooling around. And it's obvsiously NOT incidental. They both wrote that their classmates would pay for tormenting them and a number of them did. If they were bullied relentlessly AND they said they'd get revenge for that bullying THEN they get said revenge, that means it was NOT incidental.

[AtheistCrusader]

165. I'll have to re-read through it.

I tend to trust the FBI's forensic psychologists, especially with how deep into their past they delved (early juvenile criminal records before they even got to the school) but maybe there was something left out. I don't like the idea that I don't have the whole story here.

[EOTE]

166. I'll trust my own eyes before I trust the FBI.

That's kind of like trusting a panel of judges to determine the score of a basketball game rather than going by the objective score. The boys WERE bullied (aside from their journals, many of their classmates attested to this fact), the boys said that they'd get revenge for the bullying (this was also in their journals) and eventually they DID get revenge. Whether or not the FBI chooses to acknowledge these facts means nothing to me. This is, after all, the same FBI that drove Bruce Ivins to commit suicide simply because they couldn't find a more convenient patsy for the anthrax attacks.

[Buzz Clik]

154. This is a pretty huge strectch.

I'm not even sure I understand what you're saying.

The murderers at Columbine were doing a helluva lot more than simply getting even for bullying.

Way off target. Sorry.

[EOTE]

161. Maybe it was more than that, but the bullying certainly was a good part of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold#Bullying

In Eric Harris's journal, he wrote about the bullying he received: "Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, and how fucking weak I am and shit. Well, I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here. You people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidance more, treated me more like a senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads off...That's where a lot of my hate grows from. The fact that I have practically no self-esteem. Especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me...constantly...therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED" and "Whatever I do people make fun of me, and sometimes directly to my face. I'll get revenge soon enough. fuckers shouldn't have ripped on me so much, huh! HA!"[25]

[WilliamPitt]

7. (((hug)))

I know where you're coming from.

Your point, however, doesn't fit well with the OP's argument. Rape victim getting "slut-shamed" vs. bullying victim exploding in wrath: two separate issues deserving two separate conversations.

But I know exactly, precisely where you're coming from, Pab.

[redqueen]

8. There is no such thing as a "slut".

That term only feeds the illusion that there is such a thing.

[Pab Sungenis]

11. "Slut-shaming" is an accurate term.

It refers to the tendency of some to paint women as wanton to justify the crimes against them.

It does not imply the existence of a "slut" just that a person is being called one.

[redqueen]

16. Thanks for setting me straight,

man.

[Pab Sungenis]

18. Song for you.

[WilliamPitt]

12. My bad

I put the term in quotes on edit. I thought the absurdity of the term spoke for itself. I apologize.

[redqueen]

20. Thanks, guy.

It means so much to me to see such ugly words get cast into the dustbin of history, and not seen as protected, cherished tokens of 'the good old days'. Some women believe these words can be 'reclaimed'... that's fine, but I will challenge them always, cause to me all it does is reinforce the idea of adventurous women as somehow deserving of that slur.

[Pab Sungenis]

9. I'm completely against slut shaming

and any attempt to blame rape victims for what happened to them.

I just found it amusing that one of the people who were berating me for calling for an end to the deification of school bullies is now saying that it's never right to blame the victim of a crime.

[redqueen]

13. I berated you?

Link, please

[Pab Sungenis]

21. Not you.

There are other people in this thread.

[redqueen]

22. YOU WERE THE FIRST RESPONSE

WHAT IN THE EVER LOVING SPIRIT OF HOLY FUCK, DUDE

[Pab Sungenis]

23. And the quote about "berating"

came after several other replies.

I did not say you berated me.

[redqueen]

25. You derailed in post 1

Why

[Pab Sungenis]

26. Because I'm sick of people using broad terms when it suits them

and not when it suits others.

Do you really believe that victim-blaming is always wrong? Or only in cases of rape? I believe it's always wrong.

Now here's another victim: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/01/11/taft_union_high_school_shooting_hit_list_bullied_students.html

Do you believe that blaming that victim is wrong? I do.

If you don't I suggest you edit your thread title to be more accurate.

[redqueen]

27. As I said, the minute a victim picks up a gun and kills people

they no longer get to be protected from blame. They have joined the ranks of abusers and criminals.

[dsc]

31. the fact is if a rape victim shot her attacker

you would have no problem at all with it. In the case he linked, that is pretty much what the kid did.

[Pab Sungenis]

33. I would have a problem with it

but would argue that the abuse mitigates the crime. When we have a "burning bed" situation the abuser is rightly acknowledged as scum. When we have a kid who shoots a bully, the bully becomes a little angel whose mouth wouldn't melt butter.

[redqueen]

34. A rape victim shooting her attacker DURING the attack. Sure.

After? Premeditated? No fucking way.

It would be a mitigating factor, that's all. She still gets blamed.


But hey, thanks for helping with the derailment. Great job.

[dsc]

37. I'm sorry

I didn't realize the bandwidth was only yours. I didn't realize that I had to ask your permission to post on bandwidth.

[redqueen]

45. On DU2, off topic subthreads were a no no

now you can derail to your heart's content!

Go for it, dude.

[dsc]

49. no they weren't

I don't know which du2 you posted at, but off topic subthreads happened all the time. You are simply being nostaligic for a du2 that just didn't exist. Search is permanently derailed there or I would find some examples. But just to jog your memory think Dean, Kerry, Clark wars does that ring a bell. The fact is, this is a discussion board, and things will be discussed. I know you don't believe this, but the fact is you do value rape victims over other victims. I know you would never think a wife who shot an abusive husband, even one who was asleep when he was shot, should be punished especially if he had raped her. Yet, you do think other victims should be punished for similar conduct. You have every right to that opinion, but Pub has every earthly right to point out your opinion as well.

[geek tragedy]

96. Thank you for mansplaining to that little feminist who her ideas are silly

and how she's the real sexist.

[geek tragedy]

109. Ironic that men show up to silence women

talking about rape and then make dishonest accusations of anti-male and homophobic prejudice.

Yeah, you're totally being persecuted in this thread. Bullied even. Maybe you'll go out and buy a gun.

[geek tragedy]

115. Blah blah blah I'mtherealvictimhere blah blah blah.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[dsc]

118. fine

but how will I know what I can and can't post if you won't tell me.

[Pab Sungenis]

32. So you don't believe all victim blaming is wrong

only the victims you like. Thanks for playing.

[redqueen]

35. You arw making absolutely no sense. But thanks for completely derailing rhe thread...

man.

[Pab Sungenis]

50. You are welcome,

woman.

[xocet]

66. It is funny.

Last edited Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:45 PM - Edit history (1)

I accidentally strayed into History of Feminism by posting in response to a OP that had the provoking title "All Women Are Sluts". I apologized for my transgression of the group space in that thread - I was wrong.

As it turns out, you are out here in public throwing around borderline sexist language. Here you are wrong. I challenge you to delete the slang in your responses that you are attempting to use as sexist slurs.

ON EDIT: I thought that you might remove your sexist use of slang, but you did not. If sexism is bad from one side, it is just as bad from the other.

Take your use of the term "man" and the other posters' use of the term "mansplaining" under consideration. Consider if the term "man" (as you use it) were replaced by the term "bitch" or some similarly derogatory term. Consider if the term "mansplaining" were replaced by the term "bitchsplaining" or some similarly derogatory neologism. Neither set of terms should be used. Neither set contributes to civil discussion. If one cannot speak without being derogatory, one has to question whether civil discussion is actually wanted.

[ismnotwasm]

43. You are talking about different things

A victim of a crime can also be the perpetrator of one. A child molester may have been molested as a child. A murder victim may have murdered. A rapist may get raped. In all these situations, they are both victims, not responsible for the actions committed on their person, and in separate situations, criminals where they are fully responsible

Why do you think women go to prison for killing their intimate partners even after long term abuse? Is that justice?

Are you saying that in some cases, being a victim excuses criminal actions? That's entirely possible, but needsto be looked at on a individual basis.

A broad brush can start a discussion, refinements can lead to a conversation.

I'm not getting your point here.

[Pab Sungenis]

46. In school shootings, the ones who are shot

are invariably portrayed by the media as innocent little darlings slain by the oh-so-evil non-victim of bullying-what-bullying-I-see-no-bullying-here.

And if you try to state this fact on DU the majority of people who declare that "victim blaming is always wrong" are so eager to jump on the victim.

[geek tragedy]

61. yet here you are blaming the victims of shooting for being shot.

While seeking to excuse their murderers with claims that their hands were 'forced.'

[bunnies]

67. Its really not that difficult.

There's a little something called personal responsibility that you don't seem to be considering. A victim who chooses to victimize others no longer warrants the same treatment as a victim who does not chose to victimize others. Once a person make someone their victim, he or she must take responsibility for his or her actions.

Personal responsibility. Simple.

[Pab Sungenis]

88. Nope. A victim who fights back

remains the victim. It's a mitigating factor.

[geek tragedy]

95. So the person who's dead isn't a victim. Gotta love murder apologist logic. nt

[bunnies]

117. How long does one get to claim victim status...

before they become responsible for their own actions?

[Pab Sungenis]

120. They're responsible for their own actions

but their actions don't absolve their attackers of blame, either.

Witness the hagiography of the "victims" of Columbine, Taft, Virginia Tech, Chardon, Perry Hall, and so on.

[bunnies]

123. "but their actions don't absolve their attackers of blame, either"

On this, we are in total agreement.

[Pab Sungenis]

125. A number of DU posters seemed to disagree with us

in recent threads, however. That's why I question the veracity of the "victim-blaming is ALWAYS wrong" statement. A fair number of those saying that today don't really believe it, more like "victim blaming is ALWAYS wrong when I like the victim."

[bunnies]

128. Its easy for me to have an opinion on this because...

years ago I was married to an asshole who kicked my ass. Broke my jaw, a couple of ribs... you get the point. Anyway, had I offed the bastard like I wished I could have, I would have been that victim turned perpetrator and the bastard would have been the "victim". heh. But in that scenario, he would never have been a victim if he hadnt made me one first. So yeah, I get that point. We would have had to share the blame.

Luckily for him I have a ton of self control & got away before I lost some of it.

[cali]

149. your apologist shit for murderers is sick, sick, sick.

[CreekDog]

14. RedQueen's post came as a result of Tennessee trying to blame the victim of a rape for it

now that i'm telling you the context of this thread, please don't f---- it all up.

please?

[Pab Sungenis]

17. The context of this thread is immaterial.

Tennessee is wrong. Their courts are wrong. Legislators trying to tar abortion as "destroying evidence" of rape are wrong.

But unless you're willing to fight for ALL victims, don't make the blanket statement "Why victim-blaming is ALWAYS wrong," especially when one is so eager to blame victims in other cases.

[CreekDog]

19. yeah, well the thread to discuss it is this one, but you are making sure it goes somewhere else

that's the truth.

and RQ is not attempting to defend bullying, and to derail this thread on that basis is beneath contempt.

[redqueen]

24. Yeah, you know what?

[snooper2]

28. definition of a sub-thread?

[Kalidurga]

29. Do you know when the proper time to bring up a shooter being bullied is?

In court, they can call it a mitigating circumstance.

[Fumesucker]

40. When the bullying starts?

Not that it does any good in a lot of cases and sometimes makes things worse.

[geek tragedy]

54. Are you suggesting that Dylan Harris and Eric Kliebold should not have

been blamed for mass murder?

Oy.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

74. The victim still shouldn't be blamed for the bullying they endured.

Just for the murder(s) they committed.

Blaming the victim means blaming them for the offense committed against them, not for retaliating against the offenders. They're two different things entirely.

[MotherPetrie]

84. So when victim is a "he" - victim doesn't deserve to be blamed. When victim is a "she" -

victim does.

Got it!

[Pab Sungenis]

86. Not at all.

ALWAYS means just that. ALWAYS. No woman who is raped is to blame for that rape. No girl before the age of reason can be responsible for someone sexually forcing themselves upon her.

[geek tragedy]

87. And no one is blaming the bullied kids for being bullied.

They are being blamed for victimizing their bullies by murdering them.

Ironically, you are blaming the victims of shootings for their own deaths while seeking to excuse their murderers.

[JVS]

97. Are you blaming the victims of school shootings?

I don't think you'll find many to go along with you on that.

[Pab Sungenis]

102. I'm blaming the bullies

who drove the kids into fighting back with lethal force.

That's not Newtown, before you try to drag that straw man into the debate. I'm talking about cases like Taft.

[geek tragedy]

107. Do you blame Harris and Kliebold? nt

[Kalidurga]

30. Something I have recently been made aware of...

Even women who have never had any sexual desire whatsoever, have been blamed for men hitting on them and worse. They have been told the way they dress sends a message and the poor guy can't help but think she is available if some cleavage is showing or if her clothes hug her curves.

[redqueen]

38. Thank you for replying TO THE TOPIC

and for your understanding of the concept of mitigating circumstances!




And yes, being a woman out in public is punishable by sexual harassment.

The amount of women who say they feel guilty even complaining about such harassment is a testament to how effective victim-blaming is at silencing victims.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

153. That was quite a threadjack.

[yardwork]

44. AND women who don't respond to public attention from men are also criticized.

Women who don't respond when a stranger tells them "smile honey" or says "you look good babe" are considered rude. We're called stuck up bitches and worse.

And finally, women are told that we're at fault for being on guard against strange men. We're told that it's unfair of us to distrust men, the vast majority of whom mean no harm.

So, we have to simultaneously be attractive without arousing the desire of strange men, but if we do arouse that desire we must be "nice" and respond appropriately, with gratitude and thanks for being noticed, while at the same time if we are raped or assaulted it's our fault for arousing desire and not "attending to our drinks" and staying on guard, and then we'd better not ever suggest that strange men might be dangerous.

And if we do get raped it's a lesson to us that we had better be more careful.

[seabeyond]

156. an hoot. nt

[yardwork]

39. I rarely see straight men being blamed for crimes against them.

It seems to me that women are frequently blamed for crimes committed against them, but men rarely are. Gay people, of course, are always blamed for everything that happens to us.

[redqueen]

47. I meant to reply to you earlier about that....

Have you seen the comparison, what if mugging was treated like rape?

It was written in the 70's, I believe. If you haven't I will have to get a link. It's great.

[yardwork]

56. I haven't seen that. Please post if you can find the link.

The best thing I've seen lately is "Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is."

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

The writer does a good job of explaining that this doesn't mean that life is easy for all straight white men.

[redqueen]

60. Here you go!

http://womanofsteele.tumblr.com/post/3811556833/if-robbery-victims-were-treated-like-rape-victims-the


I love the video game analogy. An instant classic.

[yardwork]

63. Thank you! That's excellent!

"Have you ever GIVEN money away before?"

Perfect.

[DURHAM D]

127. I have a good friend who used that 1975 article when teaching

gender based discrimination back in the 70s. She further illustrated the point by using various types of purses as props and the class laughed at the notion that purse style and manner of carrying one suggested "Mug me". I watched the lecture several times and always refer to it as The Provocative Purse class.

It is very important to remember that back then all of the victim's prior sexual history (including lies) was allowed in by the court.

[Bluenorthwest]

114. Gay people blamed for everything, including not being nice enough when saying 'hey you straights

treat us to extreme injustice and we still don't hate you, could you drop the bigotry'.
See, it is not the injustice and shitty treatment, the fear they subject us to, oh no that is not the issue the issue is how we mention it to them when we dare suggest that they stop with the ongoing hate and behavior that is so very much like bigotry that English lacks a kinder word to use in it's place.

[yardwork]

124. Gay people's parents are usually straight. So are most of our siblings and children.

We really do love our oppressors. My immediate family, including my children, are all straight. My extended family is all straight (there's got to be a gay person in the family tree somewhere but I don't know who it is - I don't have a single uncle, aunt, cousin, or grandparent who is gay afaik). Almost all of my co-workers are straight. Many of my closest friends are straight. I certainly don't hate "straight people" - to do so would mean hating most of the people that I love the most. Gay people are somewhat unique in this respect. Most other minorities at least share their minority identity with their families.

It's understandable to me why some gay people retreat into a "gay culture." Really, who can blame people who were rejected by their parents, siblings, and closest relatives for spending as much time as possible with other gay people.

[backscatter712]

42. Sometimes, women dress "provocatively" because they just want to look good.

Not because they secretly want to have sex with strangers, or get "consensually raped" or because they want to "lead men on" or "be a tease".

Everybody likes looking good.

And a woman is guilty of absolutely zero, nothing, zilch, if she dresses in a way she thinks makes her look good, She owes nothing, is guilty of nothing, and should have to fear nothing.

Granted, I'm a guy, but even I can figure this out.

Probably the best way to illustrate this is with an excerpt from X-Men 2. Sure, Mystique may be one of the villains, but she makes an excellent point.

[redqueen]

51. Yep!

This guy gets it, too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101791663

[Buzz Clik]

152. The argument that rapists rape because of the woman's appearance is bullshit.

It's a lame excuse for criminal behavior.

[ZombieHorde]

55. Good argument, in my opinion. nt

[geek tragedy]

59. Those who accept rape culture at some level accept rape. nt

[seabeyond]

92. yes. but, not only accept, but perpetuate the rape culture. and we have two very good OPs

today, showing the too large number of mostly men that perpetuate the rape culture. they are also the men that will deny that a rape culture exists. hey geek....

have i given you a , lately.

[geek tragedy]

93. aw shucks.

Denialists are enablers, whether it be genocide, climate change, or rape culture.

[ellisonz]

68. Now this post I agree with completely. n/t

[NCTraveler]

77. Good post.

Some of the victim blamers are very obvious. The ones acting like they are trying to help women with their wonderful wisdom are the ones who piss me off. If you are in a thread where someone has been raped or victimized in any way your reply should not start "do not do "this or that"".

[bettyellen]

78. To all the "well intentioned" men who chime in with obvious "advice" for victims please STOP and

Realize you are not being helpful at all.
It's a day late and contributes to this negative narrative while contributing zilch.
People may learn the lesson and may be more careful, or they will be trusting and fooled by just one person. We've all trusted the wrong person at one point or another.

It's the way of the world. Everyone who's going to learn to be careful in a way you have he impulse to suggest will pick up on that simply by reading about the incident. You're not injecting anything new or helpful.
I know it's a human impulse to "help" but you're actually hurting thousands more who are more likely to blame themselves because of what you say. And your normalizing the horrible way victims are treated, so you unwittingly contribute to the problem.
Not helpful at all. Do us a favor and ask yourself, am I just rehashing advice that women always get thrown at them? If so, please stop.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

133. brilliantly said. nt

[bettyellen]

136. *aww shucks, thanks LLP* how's your thesis going? am very curious about it

i have a dread of the veil, as we catholics say, LOL. And mixed feelings about the whole thing.
you have to help me sort this shit out, girl!

and shout out to Lisa.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

80. This is exactly right.

What's so twisted is your post about the antiquated law which is being heard in a Tennessee appeal is being heard so they can overturn that law, for the very reason you mention above. They believe the law inhibits victims from coming forward. However, that post, not unlike this one, went so far sideways no one got to actually discuss that angle of the case. I don't understand how anyone thinks it's a fun sport to bait others here with 'blame the victim' type posts.

Thanks for posting this. I'm sorry it ended up going sideways up thread.

[Nye Bevan]

91. The only person to blame for a crime is the perpetrator.

It is always wrong to blame the victim.

[Chorophyll]

104. Kick and rec and

I'm so sorry that this thread got derailed almost the instant you posted it.

Some people seem to have a lot invested in making excuses for rapists, even if they don't realize that's what they're doing.

[redqueen]

130. It seems that women's issues can never, ever, ever be a priority... or even stand on their own.

There is always something else more important.

Some other issue that is more urgent.

Heaven forbid >this< ever gets out. We have to make sure that when it comes to women, its all just individual incidents... just a few bad apples... nothing to see here... move along


It's 2013...

And rape is maybe not legitimate. And rapists can sue their victims for parental rights over their offspring. And maybe 14 year olds really know more than old men about sex. And so what if so many women can't access abortion services. And abortion is restricted in many states, anyway. And women can be jailed for falling down stairs while pregnant. And any woman who speaks up online will be harassed in special ways reserved for women who speak up online.

We are backsliding in SO many ways.

[left coaster]

131. Because WOMEN aren't human equals to men in our patriarchal society..

..so NO, our issues will never be a priority, until we move away from being a judeo-christian based culture, and become a humanist based one.. and we need to lose the term women's issues, and calll them what they truly are.. human rights issues..

[Odin2005]

141. And the MRA idiots always come out ranting about child support and other such shit.

[Chorophyll]

143. Yep, yep, yep, yep, and yep.

It's especially depressing that you can't even have a discussion on DU without being trolled. (Yes, I said "trolled.&quot

If you're calling yourself a progressive and you find yourself derailing a thread about rape, please stop calling yourself a progressive.

[KittyWampus]

132. Redqueen, I sent you a DU Mail asking if you think there's such a thing as virtual sexual assault.

I really can't find much on the internet about such a thing.

[redqueen]

135. Maybe online sexual harassment?

[Posteritatis]

137. I've never really been a fan of the "virtual" prefix in that kind of context.

Either for good behaviours or bad, it implies, or states outright, that whatever's being done is somehow lesser or trivial or outright didn't-happen levels of not real just because of the medium.

I know you asked RQ and not me, but I've stumbled across the term now and then. I think whether something "counts" as assault online is one of those define-your-terms sorts of things, and I'm definitely leaving that particular discussion to people who'd know the issues better than I would.

[Blecht]

138. This thread sure has lengthened my IGNORE list

You've entices a boatload of victim-blamers to crawl out from their slimy holes.

[Odin2005]

142. This subject always brings out the assholes and the clueless.

[Odin2005]

140. K&R!

[gulliver]

146. No victim. No blame. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

155. So ... we make rape legal? We somehow prevent all rapes? I don't understand.

What are you saying?

[Buzz Clik]

151. A world of difference between victim-blaming and encouraging women to make intelligent choices

Rape is wrong. Rapists are criminals. The tiny fraction of rapists who are convicted may spend time in jail.

Victims of rape don't get over it.

This is not difficult.

[Taverner]

162. NOBODY asks to be raped. Period. End of discussion.

Anytime I hear "she was asking for it" my blood boils

And I'm a guy

Am I "asking for it" when I jog with my shirt off?