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DFab420

(2,466 posts)
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:51 PM Jan 2013

Has Harry Reid finally earned a primary!?

In light of his constant capitulation. As well as his verbal damning of our our own freshman senators has Harry Reid outed him-self as head Blue Dog?

I think it's time we send a message to the "career senators" and let them know we are tired of this bullshit.

It's time to put up or shut up.


Rachel's' piece on it is very...invigorating...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#50582128

59 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Has Harry Reid finally earned a primary!? (Original Post) DFab420 Jan 2013 OP
IMO, some of the fortunetellers have finally earned a tombstone as the ratfuckers they are>>> KittyWampus Jan 2013 #1
? I am confused by this post...are you implying something about me? or something in general? DFab420 Jan 2013 #2
in general. KittyWampus Jan 2013 #3
No. Tx4obama Jan 2013 #4
What was what he wanted? I thought the 41 vote minority threshold wasn't in the bill? DFab420 Jan 2013 #8
Reid apparently didn't really want to eliminate the requirement for a 60-vote supermajority PoliticAverse Jan 2013 #51
Of course he neglects to point out truebluegreen Jan 2013 #53
That's nice. truebluegreen Jan 2013 #52
yep. Phlem Jan 2013 #5
His current term ends in January 2017. eom Purveyor Jan 2013 #6
It's unlikely people will remember this tempest in a teapot temper tantrum in two weeks alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #7
Failure to fix a major rule in the Senate, one he said he was going to fix..is a T to the 4th power? DFab420 Jan 2013 #10
How does Reid 'fix' something? Is he Superman? randome Jan 2013 #15
Well, he said he had the votes jeff47 Jan 2013 #21
There Were 9 Senators Against Udall/Merkley KharmaTrain Jan 2013 #33
No, it was not the best deal. Or he's a liar. jeff47 Jan 2013 #40
How about he was just wrong about having the 51 votes? Or even...mistaken? randome Jan 2013 #39
So you're defending him by calling him incompetent? (nt) jeff47 Jan 2013 #41
He seems like a decent Democrat. randome Jan 2013 #45
Except there's no evidence there were no Democrats who wouldn't go along with him. jeff47 Jan 2013 #50
Not unless you would prefer a Republican OKNancy Jan 2013 #9
So, if we could find a viable Senate candidate who could take the primary, would you be open to it? DFab420 Jan 2013 #11
It would be foolish to "primary" him OKNancy Jan 2013 #14
What use is a Democrat Pab Sungenis Jan 2013 #27
There IS a difference between a Democrat, even if he's a Blue Dog, and a Republican. Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #46
On the other hand, Nevada is increasingly Blue truebluegreen Jan 2013 #54
We can try and hope. nt Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #59
Arithmetic onenote Jan 2013 #49
Then yes, let Nevada go full repug. PFunk Jan 2013 #30
Remember what happened in Indiana nobodyspecial Jan 2013 #12
Yes bigwillq Jan 2013 #13
why? cali Jan 2013 #25
It's what democracy is all about. bigwillq Jan 2013 #36
I disagree. It woudl be silly, for instance, for anyone to challenge cali Jan 2013 #48
Voters don't elect a speaker of the Senate. randome Jan 2013 #16
Civics... KharmaTrain Jan 2013 #34
Please define constant capitulation. longship Jan 2013 #17
I think I'm with you there. backscatter712 Jan 2013 #19
Thanks, but I think Harry didn't want to lose the filibuster. longship Jan 2013 #20
you talk as if repubs have scruples.... if repubs gain majoirty they will screw all their appeasers msongs Jan 2013 #42
+100 truebluegreen Jan 2013 #55
We did that two years ago. jeff47 Jan 2013 #23
This was no handshake, my friend. longship Jan 2013 #28
You need to pay more attention to what's actually happened jeff47 Jan 2013 #32
I agree... longship Jan 2013 #37
You would have an argument 2 years ago. jeff47 Jan 2013 #38
Then let's raise hell... lefthandedskyhook Jan 2013 #58
Is Harry Reid the correct target? backscatter712 Jan 2013 #18
Yes. jeff47 Jan 2013 #24
Yes, those senators could've been called out instead of staying on the side also uponit7771 Jan 2013 #31
Well I called his office and left a message. I told him he sold his party out. I southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #22
Yes. PFunk Jan 2013 #26
And here's another question: Is a Mr. Smith Goes to Washington filibuster reform the way to go? backscatter712 Jan 2013 #29
Visuals are important. truebluegreen Jan 2013 #56
He and the rest of the part-time Demcrats and 3rd Way sell-outs. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2013 #35
democracy = public and accountable votes on all issues and legislation in the senate nt msongs Jan 2013 #43
YES! 99th_Monkey Jan 2013 #44
Sorry...but he's old enough to just sail off into the sunset. Hulk Jan 2013 #47
he`s no mike mansfield madrchsod Jan 2013 #57
 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
1. IMO, some of the fortunetellers have finally earned a tombstone as the ratfuckers they are>>>
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:51 PM
Jan 2013

but neither of those two things is going to happen.

Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
4. No.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:55 PM
Jan 2013

Senator Reid got the majority of what HE wanted in the rules change deal.

Sausage making is messy sometimes, but in the end it turns out good.

DFab420

(2,466 posts)
8. What was what he wanted? I thought the 41 vote minority threshold wasn't in the bill?
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:56 PM
Jan 2013

Nor was the talking filibuster...

What's actually different?

(not trying to be snarky, just seeking information)

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
51. Reid apparently didn't really want to eliminate the requirement for a 60-vote supermajority
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:00 PM
Jan 2013

to pass a bill in the Senate.


"I'm not personally, at this stage, ready to get rid of the 60-vote threshold," Reid (D-Nev.) told me this morning, referring to the number of votes needed to halt a filibuster. "With the history of the Senate, we have to understand the Senate isn't and shouldn't be like the House."


From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/24/harry-reid-explains-why-he-killed-filibuster-reform/
 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
53. Of course he neglects to point out
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:32 PM
Jan 2013

that the Senate is already not like the House, even without the filibuster. It is already weighted to protect the minority, since representation is by state and not by population.

The World's Greatest Deliberative Body is just a bastion to defend the status quo. It, and its current leader, are a cruel joke on a (supposed) democratic republic.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
52. That's nice.
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:28 PM
Jan 2013

I guess he really didn't want to change anything of importance then.

By their deeds will you know them.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
5. yep.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:55 PM
Jan 2013

I've been watching him for a long time. Reid = Fail

Sometimes you need to wait till the fans come to a realization that he's a fail and let them experience it. Then it's good to post something like this, other wise you become meat for the rabid clueless.



-p

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
7. It's unlikely people will remember this tempest in a teapot temper tantrum in two weeks
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:56 PM
Jan 2013

Much less four years.

DFab420

(2,466 posts)
10. Failure to fix a major rule in the Senate, one he said he was going to fix..is a T to the 4th power?
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:58 PM
Jan 2013

Pretty sure if a Senator says he's going to do something, then does not, it's usually grounds for at least discussing their ability to lead/legislate/perform their job...

also I love the aliteration...

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
15. How does Reid 'fix' something? Is he Superman?
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:13 PM
Jan 2013

If he couldn't get the votes, he couldn't get the votes. How hard is this to understand?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
21. Well, he said he had the votes
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:58 PM
Jan 2013

Not for full Udall/Markley, but for important reforms like the 41-vote-to-sustain rule.

So....either he watered down filibuster reform, or he's a liar covering for other senators so that their voters don't know what they are up to.

Either way, the failure of the next two years are his.

KharmaTrain

(31,706 posts)
33. There Were 9 Senators Against Udall/Merkley
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:34 PM
Jan 2013

...including Senators Feinstein and Boxer. Sen Reid kept "the day" going while I'm sure arm twisting and deal making was going on. In the end this was the best deal he could get that would clear 51 or more votes. While he's the "Leader" he's also the consensus maker. We saw the opposite with Boner and the fiscal cliff bullshit...he couldn't get a consensus and the party fell apart. I strongly favored the talking filibuster...and still do...but there are a lot of skittish Senators in red and purple state up for re-election in two years (more Democrats than rushpublicans) and I suspect that's where your weak knees can be found.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
40. No, it was not the best deal. Or he's a liar.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:53 PM
Jan 2013

He said he had the votes for 41-votes-to-sustain.

So either this isn't the best deal he could get, or he was lying.

Stop pretending that there were only 2 options. There were 3 reform plans. Reid chose the weakest, after claiming to have the votes for the middle plan.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
39. How about he was just wrong about having the 51 votes? Or even...mistaken?
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:53 PM
Jan 2013

I'm not happy about the outcome, either.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
45. He seems like a decent Democrat.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:26 PM
Jan 2013

He often gives the GOP hell. Based on prior evidence and behavior, I don't think he deserves to be 'disowned'. The Democrats who would not go along with him are the ones deserving of derision.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
50. Except there's no evidence there were no Democrats who wouldn't go along with him.
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:52 PM
Jan 2013

He said he didn't have votes for Udall/Markley, but he said he had the votes for 41 votes to sustain a filibuster and for actually writing down the rules.

If he was lying, then those Democrats deserve derision.....as does Reid for covering for them.

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
9. Not unless you would prefer a Republican
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:58 PM
Jan 2013

Nevada is not a sure thing for a Democrat by any means. Their other Senatorial seat is held by a Republican.

DFab420

(2,466 posts)
11. So, if we could find a viable Senate candidate who could take the primary, would you be open to it?
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:00 PM
Jan 2013

Is Harry Reid a finger in the dyke? Or is he actually worth having around?

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
14. It would be foolish to "primary" him
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:10 PM
Jan 2013

and the Democrats in Nevada are not going to, so I think you can forget about it.

 

Pab Sungenis

(9,612 posts)
27. What use is a Democrat
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:11 PM
Jan 2013

who helps the Republicans?

What would the net result of whomever beats Reid in a primary losing to a Republican? Not much different than things are now, other than we might have a fighting chance of getting a real majority leader out of it.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
46. There IS a difference between a Democrat, even if he's a Blue Dog, and a Republican.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:26 PM
Jan 2013

A progressive is NOT going to win Reid's seat in the Senate. It's either a Blue Dog or a Republican. Those are the choices. Reid won because he's a long term popular incumbent who brings home bacon to his state. He has the power to do that. If Reid hadn't been the candidate, I think the opponent would have won.

It's all about the state of Nevada. They vote for who they think can bring home the bacon. For Nevada. It's a fairly conservative state, too.

The thing that people should be wanting is for Reid to lose his head of the Party status in the Senate, but that's almost impossible to do. Look at Boehner, who is unpopular with the reps right now. Even HE won the re-election of his head of his party in the House.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
54. On the other hand, Nevada is increasingly Blue
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:36 PM
Jan 2013

and the Republican party there is wildly dysfunctional (Sharon Angle, anyone?). In 4 more years both of those things could be even more true.

onenote

(42,499 posts)
49. Arithmetic
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:28 AM
Jan 2013

The difference between a Democrat who votes with the party 95% of the time and a repub who virtually never votes with the Democrats.

PFunk

(876 posts)
30. Then yes, let Nevada go full repug.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:15 PM
Jan 2013

and elect replacements from somewhere else (like a strong blue state w/a barely elected repug). Sometimes you just have to ditch bad luggage. Especially it it hurts the party (and maybe the country).

nobodyspecial

(2,286 posts)
12. Remember what happened in Indiana
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:05 PM
Jan 2013

Lugar was not "right" enough so they primaried him. Mourdock was too batshit crazy for even Indiana and they now have a Dem senator. I say no.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
48. I disagree. It woudl be silly, for instance, for anyone to challenge
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:07 AM
Jan 2013

a good progressive incumbent.

longship

(40,416 posts)
17. Please define constant capitulation.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:14 PM
Jan 2013

And please be precise in your definition so all of DU may have the same metric which you have.

Politics is messy. I would bet my bottom dollar that nobody has such a metric.

What it sounds like to me is that you do not like the filibuster deal, so you choose to malign the senate majority leader since you have nobody else to whom you can pin the blame.

I have a suggestion for all the Harry Reid haters here. Please let this play out before you start hating. Don't let your disappointment for the lack of a nuclear bomb in Senate rules to cloud your judgement. Nuclear weapons rarely do anything good.

I trust Harry Reid in spite of the fact that I would have very much liked a talking filibuster.

Do not presume a future which has not yet happened.

I R&K, regardless.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
19. I think I'm with you there.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:38 PM
Jan 2013

I'm disappointed we didn't get Mr. Smith Goes to Washington filibusters, but I think heaping all the blame on Reid and making him out to be an idiot or a wimp is firing at the wrong target.

If Reid couldn't get 51 votes, we need to be finding those DINOs who weren't working to find a way to make the Senate work. I'd suggest looking at Feinstein, Boxer, Levin, maybe Baucus.

longship

(40,416 posts)
20. Thanks, but I think Harry didn't want to lose the filibuster.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:49 PM
Jan 2013

Nor did a good chunk of the caucus.

The reason? If they go nuclear, and the Republicans gain a majority in 2014, they'll make holy hell for the minority Democrats.

By making a deal:



Crap game put it just the way it came down, I suspect. In this case, they were Republicans.

The logic from fictional war movies is inescapable.

msongs

(67,336 posts)
42. you talk as if repubs have scruples.... if repubs gain majoirty they will screw all their appeasers
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:56 PM
Jan 2013
 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
55. +100
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:40 PM
Jan 2013

The best way to prevent a Republican majority in the Senate is to SHOW Democratic Senators passing good, progressive legislation, while SHOWING the Republicans in both the Senate and the House holding it up.

If there are no clear lines of difference between the parties, why would anyone vote? And we know we win when we actually vote.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
23. We did that two years ago.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:01 PM
Jan 2013
I have a suggestion for all the Harry Reid haters here. Please let this play out before you start hating.

We did that two years ago, with his milquetoast "handshake agreement" with McConnell. It was a massive disaster.

Now he has another handshake agreement with McConnell and a few very minor changes.

You are telling us to let the same thing play out over the next two years.

Just how dumb are we supposed to be?

longship

(40,416 posts)
28. This was no handshake, my friend.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:13 PM
Jan 2013

It's a bipartisan vote. That makes it a binding rule of the Senate. I would have preferred something stronger, but we didn't get it.

As I said, Reid did not want to pull the nuclear trigger against a warlike opponent who would be only happy to launch missiles if we did. You want Reid to be Ronald "the missiles are on the way" Reagan, when I would prefer John Fitzgerald "Cuban Blockade gives Kruschev an out" Kennedy.

Not trying to be confrontational, but I will stand by my post.

We will both see, I imagine. No personal offense intended or taken. We can disagree without coming to blows. But I do disagree with you. That's okay with me, my friend.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
32. You need to pay more attention to what's actually happened
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:31 PM
Jan 2013

The only change to the rules is the part limiting debate time after a filibuster of low-level nominees is broken.

That's it. All the rest of the deal is not part of the rules.

The "7 senators from each side or 2 amendments" is a standing order, not a rule. It automatically goes away in two years.

The "no anonymous filibusters" is a handshake deal....that the relevant leader will try to get their members to not do anonymous filibusters.

longship

(40,416 posts)
37. I agree...
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:45 PM
Jan 2013

But neither you nor me knows how this will play out. So I am going to relax and observe things as they develope. Others can set their hair on fire and run around if they want, but none of them are in the well of the Senate. Nor am I; nor are you .

I refuse to project my fears onto the future events. That's just not how these things work out.

Let us see what happens. These people are not stupid, and the Republicans seem to be oozing ideology at every pour.

I am not willing to second guess anybody because of one event, or a collection of cherry-picked events.

I support my party even when they disappoint me. And I let them all know when they disappoint. If I disagree, I do so with respect.

That's what we do here. I would hope.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
38. You would have an argument 2 years ago.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:51 PM
Jan 2013

If you think the Republicans will honor a handshake agreement after the last two years, I have a dozen bridges to sell you.

lefthandedskyhook

(964 posts)
58. Then let's raise hell...
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 06:51 PM
Jan 2013

if another anonymous filibuster occurs. The diseased ones tend to shrivel in sunlight.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
18. Is Harry Reid the correct target?
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 08:19 PM
Jan 2013

Sounds to me like he was trying, but he got undermined by other Democratic (or "Democratic&quot senators - Feinstein and Levin in particular, who weren't going to support filibuster reform.

One day, he's the Honey Badger, the next day, he's back in the tutu?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
24. Yes.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:04 PM
Jan 2013

He claimed he had 51 votes for strong reforms, such as 41 votes to sustain a filibuster. He did not have votes for a talking filibuster, but he claimed to have the votes for much stronger reforms than this deal.

Such as actually writing the reforms into the rules instead of relying on another handshake agreement.

 

southernyankeebelle

(11,304 posts)
22. Well I called his office and left a message. I told him he sold his party out. I
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:00 PM
Jan 2013

also told them if they don't run any FDR democrats am not going to give money to the party.

PFunk

(876 posts)
26. Yes.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:10 PM
Jan 2013

In fact it should have happened the last election round. But I think it's becoming clear that his time has past. He's now become one of the problems. Time to find a FDR-like replacement for both his seat and leadership.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
29. And here's another question: Is a Mr. Smith Goes to Washington filibuster reform the way to go?
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:15 PM
Jan 2013

Think about it. Who wins and who loses when you play the chessboard out a few moves?

Go back to the 60's. Back then, it was Mr. Smith Goes to Washington rules, and the bill that was getting filibustered was the Civil Rights Act.

Back then, it only took one senator to hold the floor in a filibuster, equipped with a dictionary and a catheter, and prepared to talk the bill down for as long as he can. That senator can, of course, give the floor to another senator. The Dixiecrats that filibustered the Civil Rights Act and similar legislation had a rotation set up. Two Dixiecrats were in Washington for 24 hours. One would filibuster for 12 hours, then pass the floor to the next one for 12 hours. Another pair would fly up to relieve them for the next day. And so it would continue - only two Dixiecrats filibustering per day in a planned rotation that they can keep up indefinitely, while the rest of them were at home in their states, sipping mint juleps. Of course, the filibustering senators would be making constant quorum calls (Remember, the magic words of a filibuster are "I suggest the absence of a quorum." which forces a roll call, which would result in adjournment if 51 senators didn't answer the call), so to keep the Senate from shutting down entirely, the good Democrats and the Republicans voting with them would have to be in Washington, camped out in their offices, ready to answer quorum calls 24/7.

Usually, the Dixiecrats won, because they could sip mint juleps while the majority had to live in the Capitol 24/7 answering 3am quorum calls. Civil rights legislation got kicked down the road over and over and over.

What we want is something where the filibusterer, and the majority getting filibustered, actually have a roughly even chance of winning, meaning neither side gets too much of an advantage in terms of being able to out-endure the other, and that the winning side has to earn their victory. Remember that down the road, the Republicans may get the majority, and we might be the ones filibustering when they're doing things like putting nazi assclowns in the Supreme Court, ramming through yet more violations of our constitutional rights, or crushing unions and slashing Medicare & Social Security, etc.

There are lots of proposals to reform the filibuster. Right now, the filibustering side has too much of an advantage - the senator doesn't even have to do the Mr. Smith thing - he just puts a hold on the bill and flies home for mint juleps. Without 60 votes for cloture, the bill is vetoed.

Maybe the suggestion of requiring 41 votes to sustain a filibuster (in other words, all 41+ members who wish to sustain a filibuster) to show up to quorum calls would be useful.

Here's another one: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/25/the-british-model-for-filibuster-reform.html - a sustained filibuster results in a bill being taken off the table for one, and only one election cycle. They can kill a bill for two years, but that bill is automatically put back on the floor for the session that starts immediately after the next election, and at that point, can no longer be filibustered. So if we filibuster a GOP bill that axes Social Security, we can go to the voters and say "Yes, we saved Social Security by filibustering the Senate bill that sends your checks to the Koch brothers." The voters, then, have the final say, in the form of throwing out the bastards and retaining the cool senators, which would alter the way the Senate votes on the bill when it comes up the January after the election. If the GOP, OTOH, filibusters a bill that would put the banksters in jail that defrauded billions from the people and caused the Great Recession, I'd like to see how they explain that to their constituents...

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
56. Visuals are important.
Sat Jan 26, 2013, 01:45 PM
Jan 2013

Let them be SEEN, in front of Dog and Everybody, opposing legislation that would benefit We the People.

No more secrets, no deniability.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
44. YES!
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:19 PM
Jan 2013

Of course, I've been saying this for nearly a decade, most of which
Reid was kissing Bush Crime Family ass, turning "rolling over to GOP"
into how "business as usual" is done in the US Senate.

 

Hulk

(6,699 posts)
47. Sorry...but he's old enough to just sail off into the sunset.
Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:34 PM
Jan 2013

How did this clown ever end up as the leader of the Senate? It had to be year of service. Good riddance. We have to be care, again, in what we wish for. Remember, he barely beat the teabagger last time around. Does Nevada have someone worthy to withstand the far right's idiot? Reid barely did.

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