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cali

(114,904 posts)
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:43 AM Jan 2013

Modesty in Ultra-Orthodox Brooklyn Is Enforced by Secret Squads

The Brooklyn shopkeeper was already home for the night when her phone rang: a man who said he was from a neighborhood “modesty committee” was concerned that the mannequins in her store’s window, used to display women’s clothing, might inadvertently arouse passing men and boys.

“The man said, ‘Do the neighborhood a favor and take it out of the window,’ ” the store’s manager recalled. “ ‘We’re trying to safeguard our community.’ ”

In many neighborhoods, a store owner might shrug off such a call. But on Lee Avenue, the commercial spine of Hasidic Williamsburg, the warning carried an implied threat — comply with community standards or be shunned. It is a potent threat in a neighborhood where shadowy, sometimes self-appointed modesty squads use social and economic leverage to enforce conformity.

<snip>

The rules are spoken and unspoken, enforced by social pressure but also, in ways that some find increasingly disturbing, by the modesty committees. Their power is evident in the fact that of the half dozen women’s clothing stores along Lee Avenue, only one features mannequins, and those are relatively shapeless, fully clothed torsos.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/nyregion/shadowy-squads-enforce-modesty-in-hasidic-brooklyn.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Modesty in Ultra-Orthodox Brooklyn Is Enforced by Secret Squads (Original Post) cali Jan 2013 OP
k & r obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #1
That's Crazy RedstDem Jan 2013 #2
Can't really blame them. Those mannequins are just so damned sexy. (nt) Nye Bevan Jan 2013 #3
Freedom of religion in the US get the red out Jan 2013 #4
Not where I live. cali Jan 2013 #5
You are fortunate get the red out Jan 2013 #6
In Vermont, you don't need religion to find God. Mopar151 Jan 2013 #29
Social pressure to maintain a standard of cultural behavior is not always a bad thing. Bonobo Jan 2013 #7
what? cali Jan 2013 #9
If I am pressured to stand during the national anthem, is it really so different? nt Bonobo Jan 2013 #12
yes, it's different. cali Jan 2013 #16
Of course it is. Bonobo Jan 2013 #18
Yes. It's seen as respecting your country. Dash87 Jan 2013 #25
Why are you defending cultural misogyny? Dash87 Jan 2013 #24
How about expecting men to control their urges... meow2u3 Jan 2013 #36
is this the same area where that rabbi told the abuse victim not to say anything? niyad Jan 2013 #8
No, that was in England cali Jan 2013 #10
yes, you are correct--insanity everywhere niyad Jan 2013 #11
This is where the little boy was murdered a few years ago by a neighbor obamanut2012 Jan 2013 #14
Heh heh oberle Jan 2013 #22
oops--thanks, did not even see that--not enough caffeine niyad Jan 2013 #23
I can kind of see both sides of this. HappyMe Jan 2013 #13
I lived near to where Cali lives --in Western Mass in a very "hip" and "liberal" town. Bonobo Jan 2013 #15
Good point. HappyMe Jan 2013 #17
No one has the right to force their religion on me. hobbit709 Jan 2013 #38
So now we have modisty police in USA? Auntie Bush Jan 2013 #19
"aroused" by a piece of plastic with women's clothes on it ? KurtNYC Jan 2013 #20
KurtNYC JustAnotherGen Jan 2013 #26
Wow, just like Iran and Egypt. denverbill Jan 2013 #21
Well folks if the religious right get their way we will be seeing some of the same things southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #27
I doubt that will happen. HappyMe Jan 2013 #28
I never underestimate the religious right. They do things sneaky. southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #31
Oh, I don't underestimate them. HappyMe Jan 2013 #32
I hope your right. The thought scares me to death. southernyankeebelle Jan 2013 #34
So this would be a bad place for me to open a topless BBQ? JVS Jan 2013 #30
Notice that the emphasis is not on male self-restraint but female temptation? Poll_Blind Jan 2013 #33
+1 Gormy Cuss Jan 2013 #39
Respect my Intolerance! maxsolomon Jan 2013 #35
Scratch a fundie of any religion and underneath they're all the same. hobbit709 Jan 2013 #37
 

RedstDem

(1,239 posts)
2. That's Crazy
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:50 AM
Jan 2013

mostly, the fact that a wing nut like Michele Bachman is onto something with the whole sharia in America crap..

I volunteer to use my baseball bat on any modesty squad......

get the red out

(13,462 posts)
4. Freedom of religion in the US
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:55 AM
Jan 2013

If you're unlucky enough to be born into the wrong one, you have an ice cube's chance in hell of having the same guaranteed rights as mainstream folks. And chances are damn good no one will ever help you either, citing "freedom of religion".

Land of the Free, home of the Brave....NOT!

get the red out

(13,462 posts)
6. You are fortunate
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:02 AM
Jan 2013

I'm not against religion and belief. But I do have a problem with extreme religions, the closed in ones, denying the rights of the citizens born into them. It makes me think of this country as very weak.

Mopar151

(9,982 posts)
29. In Vermont, you don't need religion to find God.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:05 PM
Jan 2013

A sunset from the top of Burke Mt. works for me.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
7. Social pressure to maintain a standard of cultural behavior is not always a bad thing.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:04 AM
Jan 2013

It is what society's have always done and we do it ALL the time even when unaware of it.

How about expecting your neighbor to mow his lawn or pick up his garbage?

How about expecting people to stand for the national anthem at a ball game?

How about asking people to wear shoes in a store or a tie in a restaurant?

How about asking men to shave? Or to wear deodorant?

Or expecting women to shave their armpits or cover their breasts when breastfeeding?

All are examples of the same phenomenon. The exact same thing.

The only difference is that when people that wear clothes that are strange to us do it, it is easy to point a finger --not saying YOU are doing that btw, Cali.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
9. what?
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:12 AM
Jan 2013

We aren't talking about a store requiring shoes. This is about people being intimidated by groups of people who are forcing their religious beliefs on others.

Your examples make little sense, Bonobo, in relation to the content of the article.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
25. Yes. It's seen as respecting your country.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:46 PM
Jan 2013

The story, on the other hand, is the usual "OMG bewbz!" misogyny that we like to pretend doesn't happen here.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
24. Why are you defending cultural misogyny?
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:43 PM
Jan 2013

This is no different than other backwards cultures that say it's up to women not to arouse men. These religious wackos are offended over a gigantic piece of plastic wearing clothes.

Also, why should women have to cover up when breast feeding? Will the sight of a breast turn people to stone?

meow2u3

(24,761 posts)
36. How about expecting men to control their urges...
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:03 PM
Jan 2013

...instead of blaming women for "arousing" them because they show a freakin' ANKLE? That would be a start.

niyad

(113,278 posts)
8. is this the same area where that rabbi told the abuse victim not to say anything?
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:09 AM
Jan 2013

Last edited Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:32 PM - Edit history (1)

(saw it on DU yesterday, I believe. will see if I can find it)

obamanut2012

(26,068 posts)
14. This is where the little boy was murdered a few years ago by a neighbor
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:46 AM
Jan 2013

And also the neighborhood that keeps trying to bar the NYC Marathon from running through it, because of the sinful women participating in the marathon.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
13. I can kind of see both sides of this.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:45 AM
Jan 2013

The rabbi modesty guys are enforcing what they believe to be right. I don't agree with it, but then, I'm not a Hasidic Jew. Business owners are just trying to display their merchandise to the best advantage and draw people in. Nothing wrong with that.
This is a pretty tight knit area of Brooklyn. I would imagine most of the business owners are of the same faith. To any business owner that aren't of this faith, I would say - know your customer. This isn't an area where you are going to sell bikinis. A Barney's or Macy's shop window won't work here. If there aren't any mannequins in other shop windows, there might be a reason for that. Sounds unfair, but if you want to succeed...

People have the right to freedom of religion, and people have the right to make money. I don't think there are any easy answers.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
15. I lived near to where Cali lives --in Western Mass in a very "hip" and "liberal" town.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:50 AM
Jan 2013

In fact it is Rachel Maddow's home stomping ground.

A few years ago, a store that sells sex toys tried to move in. They were squashed. So how do you figure, right?

The argument for this OP seems to be "Mannequins! Ha! Pfft! How can that be offensive!?"

But we ALL have our sacred cows that we are unaware of. What if, instead of mannequins, we were talking about dildos in the window or Frank Frazetta style artwork with sword-wielding chicks with big tits? I bet some liberals here would be offended and not want THAT displayed. Am I right?

So what seems strange and not offensive us is someone else's big deal. Most people that live in insulated communities are blind to their own sacred cows.

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
38. No one has the right to force their religion on me.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:13 PM
Jan 2013

That's where religious freedom ends. these Guardians Of The Public Virtue evidently harass people going down that street too.

KurtNYC

(14,549 posts)
20. "aroused" by a piece of plastic with women's clothes on it ?
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:10 PM
Jan 2013

That is not a problem that the store owner can fix.

Burger King has huge posters of steaming hamburgers, the lottery shows you pictures of millions of dollars, car makers show you empty roads (wind swept with leaves) and a beautiful woman in the passenger seat -- life is full of choices and temptations. A piece of plastic doesn't even make the list.

What's creepy to me is that this kind of thinking excuses the thoughts and actions of the men. They can't control themselves because of a mannequin?

JustAnotherGen

(31,817 posts)
26. KurtNYC
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:49 PM
Jan 2013

I said pretty much the same thing the other day.

They oughta be ashamed of themselves if mannequins 'turn them on'. Sick. Sick. Sickos.

It must be impossible for those men to walk into like - Macys.

 

southernyankeebelle

(11,304 posts)
27. Well folks if the religious right get their way we will be seeing some of the same things
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 02:52 PM
Jan 2013

being imposed on women and girls. I mean now they are trying to impose who get the pill and who won't get the pill..

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
32. Oh, I don't underestimate them.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:13 PM
Jan 2013

But I also never, ever underestimate our side. I really don't think the kooky fanatics can get a decent enough foothold.

Poll_Blind

(23,864 posts)
33. Notice that the emphasis is not on male self-restraint but female temptation?
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:13 PM
Jan 2013

That's rape culture in a nutshell. That's male privilege. That's "I raped her because she was dressed like a slut and I couldn't help myself."

I'm sure it exists to some extent in other religions but in the Abrahamic religions it is instantiated and enshrined in religious lore, starting with the story of Eve. This example stands out because the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community stands out. But there are shades of it everywhere.

PB

maxsolomon

(33,323 posts)
35. Respect my Intolerance!
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:36 PM
Jan 2013

Cater to my fear of sex!

Stupid Funadamentalist Monotheism, you are a curse on the planet.

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