Vote: What's your view on school prayer in Rhode Island school? (Jessica Ahlquist)

[sinkingfeeling]

Last edited Fri Jan 27, 2012, 12:48 PM - Edit history (1)

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/27/10249624-whats-your-view-on-school-prayer-in-rhode-island-school

Do you think a federal judge was right in ruling that the school prayer hanging on the wall of the Cranston High School West gym was unconstitutional?

Currently, 61.7% say 'No'.... kids have to be exposed to one religion.


OK, here's what the banner looked like. The real one was 8 foot tall according to the MSNBC.com story.

[southernyankeebelle]

1. I don't have a problem with it as long as they don't push it on the children. I remember growing up

when we said a short prayer before class started the day. It was no big thing. Then on Fridays when I was in high school the non-catholic kids stayed in school and had a bible study class (I think) and the catholics kids had to go about 3 blocks away and attend catholic church and have catholic studies. Then we went home. All I remember was how I hated do that because it was a long walk home. Back then we went to school, came home for lunch then walked back to school then when school was out you had to walk back home. Really was a long walk. I hated it. Luckily my dad was in the military and we were there at his family home in PA temporarily.

[obamanut2012]

2. It even being there is pushing it onto students

It has no place in a public school, not the banner, not a prayer. The prayers and scriptures are ALWAYS Christian, although if one stretches, they may also be considered Jewish. They are never, ever anything else: Pagan (and, which Pagan?), Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. And, how about the nonbelievers?

You can teach morals and ethics without invoking religion.

[southernyankeebelle]

4. Well I know many non-believers who are very moral and I would consider them more of a friend then

some christains. I just think a morning prayer for those who want should be able to say it. Of course when I was in school and they stopped school prayer it didn't bother me. I always said a prayer at the beginning of the day. I said it silently. No one can take that right away from me. So it never really bothered me to take prayer out of school. Any religious person who says different is making a deal out of it for political reason (do you hear Sarah Palin).

[obamanut2012]

8. But everyone has to participate in the prayer

They can pray silently at their desks, or have Bible Study after school.

[southernyankeebelle]

16. I agree. What is wrong at the beginning of the school day they have one minute of silence. No one

talking. You either pray or sit silently. Whats wrong with that?

[obamanut2012]

19. It is unconstitutional

[Zorra]

23. There is plenty of time to pray before entering the classroom.

Why do you, apparently, feel compelled to impose a moment of silence for prayer upon others because of your religious beliefs/needs?

"What's wrong with that" is that you apparently want to force kids to take a moment of silence because of your religious beliefs.

[Jean V. Dubois]

6. Forget teaching morals and ethics in public schools...how about the basics?

Let's just stick to math, science, English, civics, etc. Save the touchy-feely stuff for college.

[obamanut2012]

9. I said that because that's the reason many cite

For having religion in public schools. "Good citizenship" has nothing to do with religion. Neither do morals or ethics.

[limpyhobbler]

59. exactly.

you don't need god in schools to have ethics in schools.

[MattBaggins]

3. FOR YOU it wasn't a big thing to have a prayer

do others come into consideration at all?

[southernyankeebelle]

5. Of course they do. I do feel all of this is political bullshit. Really I don't need someone to

tell me to pray or not to pray. I just do it privately.

[obamanut2012]

10. What's political bullshit?

[southernyankeebelle]

15. Religion has become a political bouncing ball. I'm of sick of it.

[obamanut2012]

20. Then those against separation of Church and State need to get over it

And send their children to private schools. Their problem is solved that easily.

[southernyankeebelle]

28. I am a strong believer in separation of church and state. You want prayer send your kid to private

school.

[southernyankeebelle]

24. It's not the end of the world if a banner is placed on a wall. No one is asked to pray to it.

Like I said. I have to problem praying in school ALONE SILIENTLY. I don't need anyone placing any law on me. I don't think there should be organized prayer in school UNLESS the school system allows everyone to say a prayer of each person faith. They could take turns every morning on the loud speaker. But I know that won't happen so forget. I can pray silently before the day starts.

I know what the law is. I agree with the law. But really why are people so afraid of a banner? I'm not until they bring me the bible and force me to pray.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. Just pointing out, this wasn't about a prayer, but about a prayer banner hanging on the wall.

[southernyankeebelle]

17. I know. But who is the banner hurting?

[sinkingfeeling]

18. Every student or employee of the school who isn't a believer in 'God'! Why is

it in a public school?

[obamanut2012]

21. Everyone, and it is also unconstitutional

That really is the end of the argument. It is illegal.

[Neurotica]

30. The problem is that the school is endorsing a particular religion by displaying such a banner

Individual religious expression by students is fine. A public school, however, serves children of many faiths and no faith and must therefore be neutral with respect to religious practices.

[Arugula Latte]

22. Oh please!

"It was no big thing." Bullshit! It IS a big deal! People should not have to be subjected to religion in school. Also, how do you think the Jewish or Muslim or atheist or Hindu kids feel?

[southernyankeebelle]

27. What is wrong with the sign that everyone even a non-believer could agree with. I need to

say one thing here because alot of you seem to think I believe in school prayer. I don't believe there should be any religion in public school unless the people who believe in other faiths are allow to have equal excess. There is no need to jump on me. All am saying is reading some things on a banner that all faiths probably think is honorable is somehow hurting non-believers? I don't think so. However, the banner is a waste of time because there still alot of bullying going on.

[newspeak]

31. well, it starts out "our heavenly father"

kind of see that authoritarian male thing. It's interesting, considering the "lord's prayer" in actual arahmaic says "O father, mother"- not "our father."

We, the people, do not have the same beliefs-this banner looks like it's pushing a certain belief. There's a reason for the separation of church and state; this is not SA nor is it Iran and I want to keep it that way.

[dmosh42]

11. She supported the US Constitution, which is the way it should be.

[jberryhill]

12. Normally, I'd say take it down

One consideration here is that the thing had been on the wall for 49 years.

Now, that alone is no reason to keep it on the wall.

My question, and no I haven't drilled down into the details, would be whether the banner had taken on a primary significance as being more of a decoration that had taken on the character of being part of the general atmosphere, as opposed to a primary significance of its being a prayer per se.

Things like this can, over time, be primarily perceived as a decoration more than an expression of religious devotion. One would have to look at the totality of circumstances.

I would assume these arguments were raised and answered in the proceeding.

[COLGATE4]

13. It's brand new to every new student who comes into the school

for the first time. There's nothing secular about it, nor was it intended to be some type of decoration. Its only purpose is religious and, as such has no place in a government school.

[jberryhill]

34. Yes, those are nice conclusory statements

If you are interested in discussing what courts actually look at in situations like this, before you chisel Moses and Muhammed off of the back wall of the Supreme Court hearing room, then how a particular "thing" operates in context is a "totality of circumstances" analysis.

That requires things like actually bothering to figure out what role the banner plays in that context.

It may surprise you to know that court decisions are not a matter of "thumbs up or down" on a thin set of facts.

Example - if the Class of '52 put up a marker saying "God bless this school" and it's been there a long time, then a court can readily find that its primary significance is not religious, but historical.

[COLGATE4]

35. Having taught Con Law I didn't think

this forum was the place for an in-depth discussion of time/place/manner parameters for display of religious symbolism. But let me say that your example of the Class of '52's marker would in all probability be found to have only religious significance and thus unconstitutional. But thanks for playing.

[jberryhill]

36. Then why not share

It's a discussion forum. You know, to discuss stuff. I don't really remember the case of "I taught Con Law" in which the majority held "thanks for playing". If you teach from the perspective of "I'm right, you're wrong" then grading exams must be a breeze.

What case do you have in mind?

Class gifts are student-organized voluntary activities. Assuming no restrictions on what student groups may place on the lawn, I'm at a loss to have an appropriate citation at hand. Perhaps you can just give me a pointer from your lecture notes?

[COLGATE4]

38. When a legal issue requires legal analysis

a generalized feel-good set of "Well, I think" and "but I feel" adds nothing to the discussion . Either you understand and discuss the question using criteria from the courts to determine if a poster/plaque/similar constitutes an unconstitutional endorsement of religion and is therefore not permitted in the public square or you don't. I have neither the time or the inclination to attempt to school you on First Amendment Law except to tell you that your assumption that because this is purportedly the result of a Class gifts which are student-organized voluntary activities is irrelevant to the question. Under Stone v Graham (1980) the USSct held that a posting even though privately funded still violated the Establishment Clause.

From my lecture notes, I would tell you that the first prong of the legal test set forth in Lemon v Kurtzman (USSCt 1971) demands that a challenged item being scrutinized must meet the tes of whether it is primarily Secular or Religious. Pretty difficult to find a secular purpose for publicly posting this prayer as written. You also attach great import to the fact that it's been there for 70 odd years - again, that factor has been viewed by the courts as essentially irrelevant, particularly when the admitted purpose of the challenged object is religious.

[jberryhill]

39. Why are you on about the banner?

Where this has been coming up in contexts less obvious than this banner, which is not permissible and which the subject line of my post to which you responded said it is normally impermissible, is in contexts such as "buy a brick" fundraising events like this one:

http://piermontlibrary.org/about/purchase-engraved-brick-support-library/

This is common at public schools and libraries. For a set donation, a donor can buy a brick and have it inscribed with the message of their choice. In a situation where no one is barred from putting an arguably religious slogan on their brick, would you maintain that all inscriptions of an arguably religious character should be banned anyway?

How you get "primarily a religious purpose" out of a class memorial gift to the school I'm not understanding, but obviously I am too dense and someone peed in your Wheaties. But I don't know why you switch from one hypothetical back to the original story in one breath. I'm not talking about the banner, and thought I had disposed of the banner in my first subject line.

Does the topic make you angry or something?

[COLGATE4]

40. I have to admit -

you've totally lost me. I understood we were talking about the legality of a banner (the so called "Class Memorial Gift&quot placed in a school which embodied nothing more than a prayer, starting with "Dear God" and ending "Amen" and the question as to whether it was permissible under the First Amendment. My point was that I believed it should be removed as constituting an impermissible endorsement of religion by a government institution, period. I also understood you were assuming that, since this (or something similar) was a gift by the students that this somehow immunized it from First Amendment scrutiny. In answer to your new hypothetical about the 'Buy a brick' campaign, again it would depend on the message on the brick meeting the five criteria set forth by the Supreme Court in Lemon. Probably much 'iffier' than the prayer banner to which I responded.

And no, the topic doesn't make me angry - we attorneys have a saying that 'arguing legal issues with a non lawyer is like trying to teach a pig to sing - it doesn't get you anywhere and you just irritate the pig'.

[Tracer]

14. What is prayer anyway?

In my opinion it is just a mental exercise in hope.

One "hopes" that their friend/relative will get well; that they will pass a test, that there is Someone out there who is listening, and so on and so forth.

But requiring students to regurgitate a written prayer in school is not only dishonest, unless it's in a religious school, but is blatantly unconstitutional.

[southernyankeebelle]

25. Well it is obvious that the children aren't reading it because we do have alot of bullying in school

[SidDithers]

32. What does prayer have to do with bullying?...

Kids who pray won't be bullies?

Sid

[jberryhill]

37. Yeah, because religious kids never bully others

[dembotoz]

65. kids bully kids who are different--i was a prot in a very catholic area

people knew what religion you were or were not because you did or did not show up at mass on sunday.

in that public school the ash wednesday smudge was a symbol of conformity.
Public elementary school.
us prots were spotted out

and god help that one poor girl in my class who was jewish.

religious bullies are worse because they have god on their side...

[truebrit71]

26. It was correctly found to be illegal. It is a PUBLIC school, not a religious school...

...therefore it has to come down..

Oh, and it speaks VOLUMES that the young woman that sued, is now being threatened by those upset with the ruling...somuch for 'turning the other cheek' or having good morals...

Good for her.

[amyrose2712]

29. I agree with the judge. Unconstitutional. eom

[hamsterjill]

33. It is correct that it be removed.

And I'm a Christian. But I believe very strongly in the SEPARATION of Church and State.

[Ilsa]

41. There is no reason for it to be there.

Not everyone wants to pray, and there no reason to create a group that does to act sanctimonious towards those that don't.

Besides, some religions believe in a Heavenly Mother!

[Nye Bevan]

42. Filing this lawsuit was totally counterproductive.

The message on the banner is principles that we all want our kids to live by; "be kind and helpful", "be good sports", "smile when we lose as well as when we win", etc. OK, so the "heavenly father" thing resulted in a student being successful in finding a judge to order the thing torn down, but wouldn't it have been better just to let it slide? The banner had been there for 50 years after all, and all this student has achieved is to piss off 90% of the school and the community, and to what end? To prove some technical constitutional point and to get some praise on DU?

[COLGATE4]

51. Violating the First Amendment to the Constitution

is not a 'technical constitutional point' - a violation goes to the heart of the question whether in this country religion and state should be separate, not combined as in many other places. The fact that the banner has nice thoughts doesn't change the fact that it is designated as a prayerc- a religious invocation which has no place in a government institution. Or would you be as comfortable with a poster that begins "Thanks to Allah..."???

[Nye Bevan]

53. Say someone filed a lawsuit to stop Christmas Day from being a Federal holiday.

Even if they were able to persuade a judge that Christmas Day should not be a holiday, on the grounds that it represents state sanction of a particular religion, the individual filing the suit would become extremely unpopular, and would probably end up in setting back their cause. This is what I mean when I say people need to pick their battles.

And yes, if a banner containing those sentiments ("be a good sport", etc.) had been displayed for 50 years, I would not throw a hissyfit about it even if it mentioned Allah.

[limpyhobbler]

60. It's not counterproductive because it helps solidify the legal principal that this kind of stuff is

not allowed in school. It's totally productive.

No it would not have been better to let it side, because that would be like saying if you hang a prayer on the wall we won't complain. What would be the next thing we let slide?

[Nye Bevan]

63. OK, better file that lawsuit to stop Christmas being a federal holiday.

God forbid we let that one slide.

[limpyhobbler]

64. What if the Supreme Court ordered the name "Christmas" be changed to "Dec. 25 Federal Holiday"?

Personally I wouldn't care.

I would be a sad because I grew up with Christmas as the name, so I would have an instinct to defend it.

But I certainly wouldn't be fighting to get Christ back on the federal calendar.

[Quantess]

43. She had the guts to do what's right.

Can you imagine, a teenager risking their reputation in high school like that? I was gutsy and opinionated in high school, but even I would not have dared make 3/4 of the school hate me.

[Major Nikon]

44. Principles shouldn't be sacrificed for popularity

You have enemies? Why, it is the story of every man who has done a great deed or created a new idea. It is the cloud which thunders around everything that shines. Fame must have enemies, as light must have gnats. Do not bother yourself about it; disdain. Keep your mind serene as you keep your life clear.

-- Victor Hugo

[Nye Bevan]

45. She should have devoted her energy towards something like helping the poor or homeless.

As you say, she has made most of the school hate her, has forced a banner with many positive messages for the students to be ripped down, and has achieved really nothing in return except for the admiration of several DUers.

[Quantess]

46. Are you kidding?

No, I guess not.

I don't understand why you're ripping on her for this. She's already getting dumped on by all the "loving" xtians all over the country, and now you want to pile on?

She did all agnostics & atheists a huge favor by taking a stand, something that most of us would not have dared. It's a big win for separation of church & state.

[Nye Bevan]

47. If the students were being forced to kneel before a crucifix

and recite the Lord's Prayer, I would agree.

But it was not worth becoming a pariah over a 50 year old banner. Part of being mature is knowing which battles are worth fighting.

[Major Nikon]

48. Pariah? You're shitting me, right?

Crazy as it sounds, lots of kids admire people who take a stand on something and give a big honkin' fuck you to the establishment and prevail. So yeah, this kid is probably not too popular with the kids who come to school with a bible under their arm, but I'm thinking she probably doesn't give a shit about them in the first place.

As far as what "battles are worth fighting", did you ever stop to think that maybe the school officials should have figured that shit out before they wasted taxpayer dollars on a "battle" they could not possibly win?

[Nye Bevan]

54. Not only is she unpopular, she will never be elected to any significant public office.

All any opponent in an election has to do is to quote the words from the banner that she threw a hissyfit over.

[Major Nikon]

55. Many(if not most) of the founding fathers were deists who advocated separation of church and state

They didn't seem to have much trouble getting elected. This act certainly wouldn't affect my vote negatively against her. You must have a lot of faith in the closed mindedness of the American public. You're also pretending to know what public opinion will be 10, 20 or more years from now, which is nothing more than conjecture. It could very well be that the worm will turn and those who find themselves clutching to symbols of their imaginary friends may find themselves wanting in the political arena by that time.

LBJ wasn't very popular when he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, either and that's a big reason why he never sought reelection. 100 years before, Lincoln won the popular vote in his reelection by only 10 points even though none of the Confederate states voted.

Doing the right thing quite often makes one unpopular at least at the time. I'd rather have a politician who is right rather than one who is popular. YMMV.

[LeftishBrit]

68. And that is precisely why the fight may have been justified.

It is not a banner or a school prayer that is so bad in isolation, or particularly worth fighting just in itself. It is its symbolism of the vile bigotry of those who will torment, or not elect, secularists.

Do you think that it's a satisfactory situation that most places in America will not elect atheists, and many will not elect any type of non-Christian, to any significant public office? Do you not think that it's against freedom, and against the spirit of the American Constitution, which states explicitly that there should be 'no religious test' for office?

[Nye Bevan]

69. If she had said "yes, I'm an atheist,

and I don't like the words "heavenly father" on the banner, I could kick up a stink if I wanted to and sue to get it removed, but because it's been hanging there 50 years and the rest of its messages are all positive, I'm not going to make an issue of it, as there are many more important things to worry about", then that would be an atheist that I would vote for.

[LeftishBrit]

66. She did not 'make' most of the school hate her

They chose to hate someone for being different from themselves. Where does it end?

Note: because I live in a country where school prayer is both (nominally) compulsory and totally ineffective - only 12% of the British population go to church regularly - I started out by thinking that all these complaints about school prayer and other symbolic religious gestures in public were rather a fuss about nothing. But it is reactions just like Jessica's schoolmates and neighbours that make me more supportive of such complaints. I doubt that most of the hostile reactions are because it's really desperately important to the people in question to pray in school. If it were, they could pray in private; or organize a prayer group out of school. It is about mob spirit against an uppitty atheist daring not to conform, and pointing out that this demand for conformity is unconstitutional in America. So as I say, where does it end. Supposing it's an uppitty Jew or Muslim, refusing to eat pork or ham? Supposing it's an uppitty gay, confronting homophobia? Supposing it's an uppitty leftie, defending the poor and homeless against the Republican anti-welfare attitudes? Supposing it's an uppitty 'geek', insisting on studying, in the face of an anti-intellectual peer group? Really, this is just a form of bullying like any other form of bullying - using religion as an excuse to attack the person who's 'different', just as one might use clothes as an excuse to attack the person who dresses unconventionally. I don't feel very strongly about school prayer one way or another (see first sentence of this paragraph); but I do feel strongly about people bullying and hating non-conformists, and I do very strongly disagree with the concept that the victim, by outspoken nonconformity, 'makes' others bully and hate them. The bullies and haters are responsible for their own actions: no one 'makes' them act that way, except themselves.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. I think it depends on the school and the circumstances...

Legally the girl is right. Whether or not it was worth it to go through all that to get a it removed is another story. I don't know the circumstances at the girl's school, I don't know who might have been offended by it and why, and I don't know if it maybe was conducive to further bullying.

There was a great West Wing episode about school prayer where Toby says something to the effect of: "It's unfortunate we never talk about the kid who gets the crap beat out of him because he didn't say the voluntary prayer in home room".

Clearly if the banner had a part in fostering an environment that's hostile towards non-Christian students, then it was a battle that was well worth fighting and one that I would be willing to fight myself. But if it's just a banner and the school is an otherwise very tolerant climate, I'm not sure it was entirely necessary.

I am inclined to say that given the hostility this girl has faced ex-post, it's hard to believe that the school was a totally tolerant environment to non-Christians ex-ante.

[Major Nikon]

50. It's never just a banner

It's a coach who orders everyone to bow their heads while someone recites a prayer before a game and how he doesn't want to hear from all the pussies who don't want to participate.

or...

It's a teacher who makes it a point to single out certain students while the rest engage in a prayer.

or...

It's the parent who does all the sewing for the kids in the school play, except for the ones who are 'different'.

or...

It's the kids who are told by their parents to proselytize to all the non-Christians.

or...

It's the hundreds of other ways that some Christians manage to make non-Christians feel as outsiders, as somehow less human because they seem to thing their assumed majority status entitles them to something.

And please don't tell me that this shit doesn't happen, because unless you've walked a mile in the shoes of a non-Christian in public schools you are going to have a very hard time realizing just how much this shit permeates our schools. Certainly it's not all Christians that do this and I'll be the first to tell you it's a very small minority, but I don't see the rest of the majority saying too much when it does happen.

Is it really too much to ask that everyone comply with the Constitution? How hard is it really to decide that schools are the place of learning things like reading, writing, and arithmetic rather than learning about talking snakes, talking donkeys, talking bushes, or whatever other hocus-pocus tales the so-called 'majority' happens to believe? And no, I don't think that if someone want to wear a cross, or pray in their own groups, or express their own faith that they should be prohibited so long as they are not interfering with the education of anyone else. The problem is that there will always be people who want to push whatever limits they are given. The very fact that the school decided to leave this banner up for how ever many decades in obvious defiance to the law of the land is testament to that fact.

If you think the banner was OK, imagine if the banner said that there was no god, and that anyone who prays to a god was wasting their time and energy that should be spent on more practical endeavors. Would you still be OK with it? I wouldn't. It's not the school's place to be telling people what they should or shouldn't believe in. Period. That job is up to the parents and clergy. Personally I don't tell my own kids what to believe in or not to believe in. I tell them they are going to have to figure that one out on their own. I don't even force my own beliefs or lack thereof on my kids and I certainly don't think anyone else should be forcing their beliefs on them either, or anyone else. This isn't rocket surgery.

[COLGATE4]

52. Perfectly said! K&R

[limpyhobbler]

56. done, k+r

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. Separation of Church and State. End of story.

If it's in a public school it's unconstitutional no matter how long it has been there.

[JoePhilly]

58. Now at 82% yes, unconstitutional.

Biggest bullies I ever knew in school were self-righteous Christians who stood in judgment of others while claiming their own moral superiority.

[limpyhobbler]

61. Instead of suing the school I would have taken the sign down with a crowbar and/or bolt cutters.

And then let the god squad sue to put it back up.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. If I taught in a school that hung such a banner,

I would personally notify the ACLU and ask them to get it removed.

[Ship of Fools]

70. Get rid of it.

[Justice wanted]

71. I don't think school should promote religion. Meaning no OFFICAL school prayer or religion over

another. I believe that is what the founding fathers meant when they said seperation of church and state.

I also think sometimes schools take that too far. I think they can be a great useful too in bring students together and promote better understanding of various religious beliefs but allowing students to maybe create clubs. AND showing these clubs equal respects teaches kids to have a tolerence to resepect other religions AND JUST maybe we wouldn't have the BS happening in this country like we do now.


My humble opinion.