I know people claim that an artist's views doesn't affect enjoyment of their work...

[Orrex]

but do you really believe it?

Really?

For all artists?

For all views?

Outside of a strictly academic setting, in my adult life I have met few if any people for whom this is truly and actually the case, though I've known any number of people who've made that claim.

Did you, for instance, enjoy Lethal Weapon more before you learned what a weirdo Mel Gibson turned out to be? Can you respect his skill as a director while watching Apocalypto, or does his freakish anti-Semitism bubble up in the back of your mind?

Does it bug you, even a little, that Gary Sinese is an outspoken Conservative? What about Patricia Heaton? Kelsey Grammer? How about famous Scientologists?

Suppose that you had a favorite author whose works you'd enjoyed for years.
Now suppose that this author burns your house down and gets you fired from your job. Would you still be able to enjoy that author's works? Honestly? If not, then why not?

The claim of intellectual objectivity is a lofty goal and works well on paper and in anonymous online discussion forums. In reality I suspect that people are far less objective than they like to claim to be. Certainly that has almost always been the case in my experience.

Your thoughts?

[CBGLuthier]

1. I like John Wayne movies

Of course, compared to today's conservatives Mr. Wayne was a liberal.

I like John Ford movies even if he was a racist.

But these modern folk who go on Fox and scream about President Obama can all go fuck themselves along with Orson Scott Card.

[Orrex]

2. A very honest answer!

And I concur!

[Dreamer Tatum]

3. The typical reaction on DU when a prominent person is outed as conservative is as follows:

1. "No-talent hack."
2. "Never liked them anyway."
3. "Boycott started."

And so on. It's more amusing than anything else, watching people go through the stages of grief when someone like Dennis Miller changes or gets outed.

[Puzzledtraveller]

10. It is very silly indeed

especially when the affront is minor, not like say it being revealed that someone who you admired, read, watched listened to, was a pedophile or something heinous.

[Mz Pip]

36. I don't like Dennis Miller

and it's not because he's conservative. It's because he isn't funny and hasn't been since Weekend Update on SNL.

There are plenty of liberal artists I don't like so I don't think my preferences are politically based.

[sweetloukillbot]

57. I remember Franken saying Dennis was always that way

He did a stand up show pre 9/11 here in Phoenix where he was getting heckled so bad he threw a tantrum and stormed offstage. Don't think he's been back to Phoenix since.

[Warren DeMontague]

54. Dennis Miller stopped being funny long before he "came out" as a right wing goober.

List off the high-talent right wingers whose contributions to their fields will be sorely sniff-sniff missed if DU doesn't take them seriously.

Verily, what would Rock and Roll be without the likes of Ted Nugent, one wonders? Or Comedy, without Victoria Jackson? Acting, without that fucking banana kid from saved by the bell?

And so on.

Fact is, most of the talented politically active folks are Democrats. Progressives. Bruce Spingsteen. Michael Stipe. Bob Dylan. Morgan Freeman. Ashley Judd.

You know, on


our


side.

[bluedigger]

4. Nearly half the population voted for... What's his name again?

Anyways, I'm not blacklisting half the population just because they are conservative.

[Orrex]

7. Not saying you have to blacklist anyone; that's not the question

Does an awareness of an artist's political/social views affect your enjoyment of that artist's work?

The high-minded claim made so often on DU is that the artist's work is wholly and entirely independent of that artist's political views or social activism. I submit that it's not that simple, and that if the artist is known (as opposed to anonymous artworks) then what is known about the artist will tend very strongly to affect the viewer's interaction with the work.

[bluedigger]

26. I guess it varies with the artist, the medium, and the subject matter.

But you are right, it is often difficult not to factor in.

[Orrex]

29. Yeah--for me, it likewise varies depending on artist, medium, etc.

[HappyMe]

5. Politics isn't the be all

and end all of my life.

I seriously doubt any author will burn my place down.

[Orrex]

8. So you choose not to address the issue?

Why post a response, then?

[HappyMe]

12. Just to irritate you, apparently.

I did address the issue. I don't let politics color every single tiny part of my life. Thus, politics aren't the be all and end all of my life. I don't run every author, artist, musician through a political purity test. I enjoy art for art's sake.

[Orrex]

24. You're welcome to keep trying.

You're attempting to mischaracterize the question. It's not a "purity test." Not sure where you came up with that, but if you want to discuss that sort of thing then I suggest that you start another thread.

I'm asking if the artist's views have any impact upon your enjoyment of the artist's work; I'm not asking "does an artist's views cause you to reflexively reject all of that artist's works?"

Hardly a "purity test."

[HappyMe]

25. And yet again.

I answered.
I enjoy art for art's sake. No, an artist's view does not cause me to reject their work.

[Orrex]

31. You're still not answering the question

I'm not asking if an artist's view causes you to reject that artist's work; that's the "purity test" that you were proposing.

Instead, I'm asking if an artist's views affect your enjoyment of that artist's work, and you still haven't answered.

It's a more nuanced question than you seem to want to answer, for some reason.

[HappyMe]

50. Good grief, and what reason do you

suppose that is?


I guess I am supposed to address each of the people in your OP.

Patricia Heaton - I still enjoy Everybody Loves Raymond
Gary Sinise - good actor
Mel Gibson - crazy, but still enjoy Mad Max, but wouldn't bother with Apocalypto or the Jesus movie
Nugent - meh
Scientologists - Tom Cruise, meh - Travolta, I enjoy his movies

As I have said, I enjoy art, music, movies and books for their own sake. I decide I like or dislike these things based on their own merits. I don't reject anything out of hand based on political leanings.

[Orrex]

58. Just to irritate you, apparently

[HappyMe]

59. But, you didn't answer my question.

[Orrex]

60. Doh!

[HappyMe]

61. Enjoy the day.

[siligut]

6. Of those you mention, only Mel Gibson is worth it

I don't like to contribute to assholishness. There is something icky about conservatives, I didn't enjoy Sinese, Heaton or Grammar's work before I even knew their political ideology.

As for cult members, I think of that as when you sell your soul to the devil for fame. You weren't good enough to make it before and now you are famous for being a sell-out, meh.

[liberal_at_heart]

9. I think Gary Sinese is a great actor

He use to be very sexy. He hasn't aged very well however. and I still watch reruns of Frasier almost every day. I love Kelsey Grammer's voice. I remember he was one of the voices in The Disney movie Anastasia and I remember just love listening to him sing and even just talk in that movie. Mel Gibson did let his crazy bleed into his movies, so never was a real big fan of his.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

16. Patricia Heaton was a dissapointment for me. I used

to be a big Raymond fan (even in syndication) right up until I learned that she was a fire-breathing teabagger. I haven't set eyes on that show since.

[liberal_at_heart]

17. I can still watch Everybody Loves Raymond

It was a great show. The Middle is eh, okay. Not great. Dont really watch it.

[CBGLuthier]

49. I never did like her even in that show and apparently neither did Romano

He has stated more than a few times that she did not care for him very much.

[el_bryanto]

11. Thank goodness someone asked this valuable question

I think a talented artist will be worth watching/reading/listening too, while still being aware of their political leanings. I'm not bothered by talented people who think differently than me. I am more irritated at clumsy artists who jam their politics in without regard to whether it serves the art - but that's a problem with clumsy liberals too.

Bryant

[ChisolmTrailDem]

13. As soon as I find out someone, a family member, artist, actor, singer, whatever...

...is a republican't or teabagger, I immediately dislike them intensely for being so stupid and it doesn't take much after that, especially if they're proud of their stupidity, for me to completely write them off - and usually I write them out of my life.

[quinnox]

14. I like Tom Cruise

In movies and know he is a scientologist. Doesn't bother me any.
I know Mel Gibson is basically a raging right winger, but it wouldn't stop me from watching his old movies that I really liked such as Mad Max or lessen their entertainment to me. Yep, political views are not the end all and be all, at least not to everyone on Du.

[sweetloukillbot]

37. Same way with Beck for me

I was disappointed to find out he's a Scientlogist but I'm not avoiding his work because of it. But I won't read l Ron Hubbard's sci fi work because of Scientology.

[Recursion]

15. Tolstoy was very conservative

If people have art to offer I'm willing to judge it on its own.

[sweetloukillbot]

28. Agreed

Stravinsky was practically a fascist but Rite of Spring is arguably the greatest piece of music from the 20th Century. TS Eliot, Ray Bradbury.... Carl Orff was a Nazi I think, still love O Fortuna. Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull, Rick Wakeman of Yes, I interviewed both of them and neither was offensive about their beliefs. Ditto Alice Cooper.

[RZM]

42. Carl Orff wasn't much of a Nazi

That being said, he wasn't particularly anti-Nazi either. He was kind of selfish, however. When one of his friends was arrested for anti-Nazi activity, the man's wife asked Orff to use his clout to help save her husband and he declined for fear that his reputation and career would be destroyed. That man was later executed (I doubt Orff could have stopped it, but still). There is also evidence that he lied to US occupation authorities after the war when he claimed to be a part of the same anti-Nazi organization that got his friend arrested. Of course, burnishing false anti-Nazi credentials was probably pretty common in postwar Germany.

So he definitely has a checkered past, but I don't think it's quite fair to call him a Nazi.

There was a documentary film not too long ago that dealt with all of this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/jan/02/classical-music-film-carmina-burana

[sweetloukillbot]

46. I always thought it was more guilt by association

He wasn't a propagandist like Riefenstahl just seems like a German who was a member of the party.

[liberal_at_heart]

51. I find it amusing that Alice Cooper is a conservative given how he use to tick

conservatives off with his music and performances.

[sweetloukillbot]

53. He found Jesus in recovery

He does a lot of charity work in Phoenix and doesn't make much issue about his politics, but he does hang out with people like Phil Michelson and such.

[sweetloukillbot]

18. I'm of two minds....

I despise Ted Nugent as a person, but love his mid 70s work. Mo Tucker is a racist tea bagged, but the Velvet Underground are amazing. What I don't like is when Consrvative entertainers play victim, like Kelsey Grammar or David Mamet. And Mamet's hyper-conservativeness has me reassessing Glengarry Glen Ross now.

[liberal_at_heart]

20. Ted Nugent is a brilliant guitarist. A raging loonatic, but a great guitarist.

[Orrex]

27. Terrific answer

Perhaps a more thorough framing of the question would distinguish between artists in general and artists whose personalities overshadow their artistic works.

In another thread today I posted that the artist's/author's political views don't affect my enjoyment of the work too much unless the artist/author shoehorns those views into the work.

Threatening the President twice in the national press certainly qualifies as overshadowing Nugent's guitar work, for example. Therefore I don't mind admitting that his political views affect my perception of his work (though I've never really been a big fan anyway).

[The2ndWheel]

19. Burning your house down and getting you fired are the same as a political opinion?

If I like the work, I like the work. If I don't, then I don't. Whether their political opinions are the same or different than mine doesn't factor in.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. well...

Sinese is 'outspoken'? Really? I know he's Republican, but he is a fairly quiet guy and a great actor. Heaton is a mean hack actor, a hypocrite. Kelsey is hugely talented and sadly also the epitome of that which is wrong with conservatives in showbiz, he always tries to paint himself as abused by the nasty liberal industry. He was recently saying he did not get nominated for an Emmy because he's conservative, but he is one of the top Emmy Award Winners with 6 or 7 and several more nominations, this is more than Peter Falk or Carroll O'Conner for example, he is the only person ever to win Emmys for playing the same character on 3 different shows, he is one of the top earning TV actors of all time, he has won several Golden Globes, People's Choice, any award you can think of. Few actors get one tenth of the praise and compensation he has had, yet he always claims he'd have more if liberals were not so against him. Clearly he's nuts. The industry made him wealthy, famous and lined his mantel with major awards again and again, and he says this is not enough because he is always using politics as trade in his career, as a way to say 'I am the victim' which is just a joke. We should all be so victimized as Kelsey.

[RockaFowler]

48. I agree with everything you just wrote

I used to watch The Middle all the time and I knew Heaton was a Conservative. It was when she stepped over the line with the Sandra Fluke stuff that made me just say good bye to the show. She was so horrible that it left a bad taste in my mouth that I just didn't want to see her anymore. So I gave up the show.

But I have that same feeling about actors/actresses I have met. There are some who rubbed me the wrong way and I could never watch a show of theirs ever again (or listen to their music - yes Celine Dion I'm talking about you). I don't care if they are Conservative or Liberal either.

[Bluenorthwest]

62. Thanks.

The film industry has terrible history regarding politics and blacklisting, and it should not happen to a dog, or even to a Republican. This is what really bugs me about Kelsey, is that he tosses out that 'persecution' that is clearly absent as if such things were not serious business. Right wingers blacklisted people who did not work for decades, Kelsey makes millions and he's 'persecuted'.
I could go on and on about many of the people being discussed, but I shall refrain.

[snooper2]

22. For the most part yes, no biggie what they think, but there are exceptions to every rule---

Of course, I don't think she actually qualifies as an actress so maybe my point is mute LOL

[Tommy_Carcetti]

40. Performance Art.

Victoria Jackson's rants just have to be performance art.

Think about it--it's the only way Victoria Jackson gets mentioned these days.

I'm of the position that Victoria Jackson has gone Kauffman.

[Bluenorthwest]

63. I can assure you that she is dead on serious.....

Andy was a great guy and a genius. Victoria is what you see.

[Agnosticsherbet]

23. I like Clint Eastwood. I think his chair sucks. But I will see his movies.

The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly is one of the great anti-war movies.

As someone else said, I like John Wayne, even though he was a conservative and many of his movies have a strain of violence against women, though those scenes weren't at all uncommon through the 60's by most leading men.

I've enjoyed Mel Gibson movies since Mad Max. His work with Danny Glover is hilarious. I still enjoy those old movies when I watch them. I doubt I would go see a Gibson movie now but I haven't liked hs work much since "Bird on a Wire."

I enjoyed Grammer's Frazier, Cheers, and his movie Down Periscope. I would watch any of those again. If the story appeals to me I will watch new stuff.

Most of Schwarzenegger's movies rate at least 3 explosions. I have no use for him as a politician. I doubt I would see any of his new work, but then I don't go see all that many action flicks anymore.

Now, even though he is liberal and a good actor, I've never liked Sean Penn. Unless I really enjoyed the company of the person I went to a movie with, I won't watch his stuff.

Willing suspension of disbelief is a great thing. If a movie or a TV series is good, the acting believable, and the story appeals to me, I don't see the asshole on the set. I see the characters.

[sweetloukillbot]

35. Mel's beliefs bleed into his work

I'm unable to separate his anti-Semitism from Passion of the Christ, which also exposed an unhealthy obsession with torture in his work IMHO. That's kept me away from Apocalypto.

[Agnosticsherbet]

52. I, too, have not seen Apocalypto...

I probably won't see anything new. I don't go to movies alone, and there are enough choices that I can pick and chose where I spend my money for entertainment. None of my friends have called me with a "you've got to se Mel Gibson' newest movie" rant. I can't imagine any of them would.

[hughee99]

30. I wonder if repukes have the exact same issue with Lethal Weapon and Danny Glover? n/t

If I like a person's work, I'll try to put their politics aside.

I have to admit, though, that if I like a person's politics, I'm more likely to give them a chance. I've seen a good bit of Janeane Garofalo, for example, and I'm still waiting for her to start to be funny. I wouldn't have give a repuke comic this much of a chance.

[Orrex]

34. Good point

Though I should mention that I do find Ms. Garofalo quite amusing.

During the presidential campaign and inauguration, a number of people openly declared that their admiration for Katy Perry was enhanced by her outspoken support of President Obama.

It seems that an artist's views can indeed have a favorable effect on one's impression of that artist, so it's not impossible that they might equally have a negative impact.

[sweetloukillbot]

38. Jeanene is an example on the left where politics negatively affected my views

I used to find her funny, but her conspiratorial attitudes on her show left a bad taste in my mouth. And when she started getting anti-Semitic towards Sam while promoting a Scientology charity she lost me.

[Orrex]

41. Whoa--wasn't aware of all that

I never got to hear her radio show, so anything that went on there is largely unknown to me.

[sweetloukillbot]

44. I don't remember the exact details

But she was. Constantly needling Sam about his Judaism. Then she started promoting a charity in New York that had ties to Scientology and Sam called her on it. He ended up storming off from the studio.

[Zorra]

32. Good post, I agree with you. I think Robert Duvall is one of those rare

conservatives that genuinely excels at his art.

But in all honesty, there is no way I can watch him without seeing the deadly hate worms of conservatism crawling around inside him.

[liberal_at_heart]

33. oh, he is a great actor

I definitely still enjoy his work.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

43. Is he actually outspoken about it though?

I mean, I've heard that he's a Republican and I have no reason to doubt that being the case. Nor is that going to turn me off of watching him as an actor.

But I haven't heard anything about him constantly making known his views on things. I might be wrong, but he's not one to grab headlines in that respect.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

39. As long as they aren't using their works as propoganda, it really doesn't bother me.

Sure, it might cross my mind when watching something they've done, but it's not enough to detract from my enjoyment of it. Providing, of course, that the work is actually enjoyable.

Kelsey Grammer in Cheers or Frazier doesn't bother me. Kelsey Grammer in "An American Carol" (a forgettable, lame box office bomb of a "comedy" from a couple of years ago which was bankrolled by conservatives) might bother me, but that's because it's conservative propoganda that I had no interest in watching in the first place.

Now, you mentioned Scientology and that brings up John Travolta and "Battlefield Earth", which is Scientologist propoganda. But that gets a pass just because it has to be one of the most unintentionally hilarious movies ever made.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. I'll get back to you when Mel Gibson burns my house down.

Until then, I'll enjoy the movie "Signs"

[Orrex]

47. Well, you'd be the only one

I didn't know that it was possible to enjoy that film, though it wasn't really Mel's fault.

[sweetloukillbot]

55. +1

My wife grew up on a farm and hates that movie because they live on a farm and do absolutely no farm work.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

56. I still enjoy many of Robert Duvall's performances as much as I did when i first watched them. I

think the show Frasier was pretty funny and I'm not much of a sit com (or TV for that matter) guy. Jon Voight seems like a major chode in real life but his older movies are still good. So for the most part it makes no difference to me. I'm sure there's a limit to that though but I can't think of examples right now.