An AP photographer named Beck Diefenbach has probably just ended the Occupy movement.

[Robb]

Not officially, of course, and certainly not intentionally. And I of course might be wrong, Occupy may endure.

But I promise you, no one will think of Occupy the same way ever again after today's AP photos.


A woman pleads with Occupy Oakland protestors to not burn an American flag found inside Oakland City Hall during an Occupy Oakland protest, Saturday, January 28, 2012, in Oakland, Calif. Police were in the process of arresting about 100 Occupy protesters for failing to disperse Saturday night, hours after officers used tear gas on a rowdy group of demonstrators who threw rocks and flares at them and tore down fences. Photo: Beck Diefenbach / AP


Occupy Oakland protestors burn an American flag found inside Oakland City Hall during an Occupy Oakland protest on the steps of City Hall, Saturday, January 28, 2012, in Oakland, Calif. Photo: Beck Diefenbach / AP


An Oakland City police officer stomps out a burning American flag after Occupy Oakland protestors set City Hall's flag on fire during an Occupy Oakland protest, Saturday, Jan. 28, 2012, in Oakland, Calif. Photo: Beck Diefenbach / AP





Hopefully the photos worked that time. Apologies.

Edited again to add the photographer's website. He is quite good, and a quick guess is that he is sympathetic to Occupy, so please, no casting asparagus upon him. http://beckdiefenbach.com/editorial/

[banned from Kos]

1. Why no link to his photo?

I have no idea what you are referring to.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

159. This is the problem with the 'leaderless' model of organizing

While you don't have to adopt a top-down approach, a little but of infrastructure can help a grassroots movement flourish - think civil rights activists in the 60s.
With no one to speak for OWS, there's no way to denounce this kind of stuff. And it's why sensationalistic, shock value nihilists with no interest in actual organizing are drawn to Occupy like moths to a flame.

[Cal33]

227. We have no way of knowing if these actions had been taken by Occupiers or by

moles paid by the Neocons and Corporatists to do so. NeoCons and
Corporatists are so well-known for their unenviable reputation of
dirty tricks and bribery.

[cyberpj]

244. That's what always occurs to me as well. nt

[elleng]

2. Would you care to elaborate?

[Joe the Revelator]

3. Link to the photo?

[chowder66]

4. Are you referring to a splinter group?

[cachukis]

5. Just chased this down. Maybe the reference.

http://www.wggb.com/2012/01/29/oakland-to-assess-damage-after-occupy-protests/

[gristy]

6. What

are you talking about?

[Ed Suspicious]

7. I think he photographed occupy burning an american flag but that's based on a quick skim of google

[chowder66]

8. Desecration of flags I think.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/28/10260959-oakland-assesses-city-hall-damage-after-occupy-break-in

[hughee99]

9. The burning flag pictures?

http://www.wggb.com/2012/01/29/oakland-to-assess-damage-after-occupy-protests/

Well, I'll say it before someone else does... I'll bet it was REALLY police infiltrators doing this and not occupiers.

No, I don't believe that's really the case, but it COULD be. Prove it's not.

[arcane1]

12. This is why I think protesters who hide their faces are assholes n/t

[2pooped2pop]

63. well to be fair

if there is tear gas, smoke and pepper spray, one should cover faces. But you will notice that these particular people did not seem to be under attack at the time.

I don't know what the case is here but I have seen pics of Oakland police as occupiers, causing trouble to give the police the excuse to bash us down. Wasn't there even a video of a cop trying to say he really was an occupier, 'don't get mad at him for throwing stuff at the police' or some other shit like that?

I think most of the occupiers that I have talked to, or viewed videos of have a definate peaceful no matter what, attitude. Violence is not the way and they know it. They also know some are going to try to start trouble to give the media the shots they want.

[arcane1]

67. Exactly, in those situations it's a different story

[bayareamike]

13. Uh, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

Just saying, brother.

[hughee99]

23. Of course

the "claim" is going to be that it's Occupiers. I'm just getting out the response early that it must really be infiltrators and then demanding that whoever would claim it's the occupiers PROVE that it really is. Just saving everyone some time as to what the inevitable claim and counter-claim will be.

[Hugabear]

78. The burden of proof should be proving that these were legitimate OWS protesters

And not, as many have suggested, agents provocateurs or the police themselves.

I think it's more likely the result of anti-OWS provocateurs and infiltrators.

[Saokymo]

15. I have a sneaking suspicion that may be the case

It's either a splinter group of hooligans being stupid or a group of infiltrators trying to make the whole movement look bad.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

160. and this is why Occupy needs some sort of structure

so they can distance themselves and denounce splinter assholes, as well as the Paulites, neo-Nazis and other nuts that show up and drag down the movement and its message

[Broderick]

31. Lmao

Never fail to be so amused here with the ridiculous theories.

[markpkessinger]

35. Wouldn't even have to be police . . .

. . . it could be any paid provocateur working on behalf of any one of the MANY parties who have an interest in discrediting OWS.

[JSnuffy]

38. It's just dumb...

... like it is TOTALLY beyond the realm of possibility that anyone associated with OWS would burn/desecrate/disrespect the symbol of America.

I can't take people seriously who aren't even close to having a grasp of reality.

[hughee99]

53. As opposed to being totally beyond the realm of possibility that it IS someone

associated with OWS who has "lost their way". I don't know one way or the other, but some OWS supports will be just as positive that it's an infiltrator as those who oppose OWS will be that it isn't.

[Drahthaardogs]

106. I like this. My story shall be

the flag was torn, etiquette demands it be burned. They were doing the patriotic thing!

[truth2power]

249. My first thought, too. Provocateurs. And

that their faces are covered adds to my suspicion.

[a simple pattern]

10. Oh man it's all over for sure now

Forget about all the injustice you guys, somebody burned a flag

[movonne]

16. Maybe the whole thing was a set up....

[hack89]

44. It doesn't help them grow the movement

the hardcore supporters are already engaged - they need to gain the support of that big squishy center that occupies American politics. This will not help them.

[Union Scribe]

72. Lol. No offense, but I've seen your views on OWS.

Forgive me if I find your concern about "growing the movement" a bit hollow.

[hack89]

83. So you think this is good for them? Ok - good luck with that. nt

[rhett o rick]

133. Listen Jack, the movement is here. I hope your support is with us and not for our

corporate overlords. But it's really your choice.

[pintobean]

137. Jack? No, that's hack. You must have misread that.

Unless you're playing the internet bad-ass bit. That would be funny.

[rhett o rick]

145. Ah pintobean. Who do you support? Occupy or the corporate overlords? Or are you one of

those "centrists" that cant seem to make a decision?

[pintobean]

151. Neither, but that's not centrist and it is a decission.

I think it's pretty damn naive to present it as an either/or choice. I supported Occupy's initial goals. In practice, it's a disaster. When their list of demands started growing out of control, I knew it would turn into a clusterfuck. Since then, it's been one bad decision after another. They're not going after the 1%, They're going after communities and working class tax payers. How in the fuck does picking a fight with police and destroying city hall affect the 1%? Do you think they give a fuck about city hall's flag? The 1% is laughing and Joe Sixpack is getting pissed. Occupy doesn't represent the 99%, they're just a bunch of shit disturbers. If that's what you want to be, go ahead. Just don't expect me to clap my hands or pat you on the back. And don't you dare claim that if I'm not all in for Occupy, I'm for the 1%.

[Broderick]

175. +1

[Rex]

214. Thanks

Now I know why you posted what you did.

[Leopolds Ghost]

245. So Oakland is Occupy? Shades of the discussion we had in December.

NY and Oakland being the be-all and end-all of Occupy. I posted a thread about ODC potentially being evicted today and responding with a huge block party, but nobody on DU3 including you is interested in FRIENDLY, NON-CONFRONTATIONAL Occupiers. (Or y'all would have replied to that thread, which almost no one has done, especially what with ODC being situated in, y'know, the political capital and hence relevant to people interested in mainstream political participation in Occupy). You, my friend, are being part of the problem by obsessing over and being drawn to the unwarranted violence in pockets of the country, and ignoring the huge, quiet majority. If it bleeds, it leads. Truffaut was right. Ever see the movie Medium Cool?

[TheWraith]

158. You're with us or you're with the terrorists!

Yeah, great strategy there. Particularly when your idea of a "movement" appears to consist mostly of doing provocative things hideously unpopular with 95% of the American Public.

[joshcryer]

164. At least the outrage this time isn't about blocking traffic.

[rhett o rick]

228. Sean Hannity

Yes that's where I heard that "hideously unpopular with 95% of the American Public." One might wonder where he got such an outrageous statistic. Well I could tell you but it would not be pleasant.

[rhett o rick]

229. Why are you so venomously against OWS? You dont show that "wrath" against those

on Wall Street that are driving this country into bankruptcy. Are you a fan of Grover Norquist?

[hack89]

200. Will you be wearing a mask when you knock on my door? nt

[Union Scribe]

56. Yep, pack it up!

This is why we can't have nice things! Lol.

[2pooped2pop]

66. lol thank you for putting this in the correct perspective n/t

[gkhouston]

104. 'Cause that was the *death* of the anti-war movement in the '60s.

[TheWraith]

162. Yeah, actually it pretty much was.

Most Americans are proud of their country despite what they'd consider it's faults. And most Americans do not want to align themselves with people who choose to attack everything about the US including the parts that 99% of the country treasures.

That's what people who stand on a soapbox and rant about evil American imperialism don't seem to get: when your entire message is "America sucks, fuck us!" you are going to lose support, not gain it. What these folks in Oakland are doing is basically just an exercise in self-rightousness at this point: look at us and see how much better and more morally pure we are!

[barbtries]

190. exactly.

let's all just get poorer and poorer while the ptb gets ever more obscenely rich and our country slides into frank fascism with only 2 classes, the have-it-alls and the have-nothings. that's all cool. but burn the FLAG?! omigawd

[Zoeisright]

221. THANK you.

Priorities, people.

And the flag isn't a holy object. People who worship it are just plain stupid.

[SammyWinstonJack]

199. I know it turned me off of OWS...NOT!

[Rex]

215. LOL!

Teh desperation is strong in some.

[Saokymo]

11. Won't win many favors with folks

But I seriously doubt it would be a death knell for the movement.

[chowder66]

14. It's not over. This has already happened elsewhere....

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/12/flag-burning-at-occupy-charlotte-creates-divide-among-members.html

[MadHound]

17. Somehow I doubt it, but thanks for your concern

How many flags were burned during the sixties and seventies? Did those images end the anti-war movement? No, and I doubt this incident will end the Occupy movement either.

[MMJjestic]

42. This is the age of RW talk radio and Fox

The flag burning morans(yes I said morans) just handed the RW wurlitzer a new angle to paint Occupy as bunch of anti-American and/or Marxist thugs. Now maybe it is no big deal in your progressive smallville, but this will not play in Peoria, where the message of Occupy is needed the most.
Legal and Constitutional as flag burning is, most Americans turn their backs to those who engage in the practice and the views they espouse. The idiots in Oakland made social justice and the struggle for it much harder. Thank you Oakland for making the Oakland PD the just and moral force in the eyes of common everyday working Americans. Gracias MORONS!

[2pooped2pop]

68. perhaps that's why

these right wing infiltraters did it.

[mackattack]

188. ^^^ this

you so much as cough and dont cover your mouth and the RW media/blogs is accusing you of high treason. There are people in the US who dont understand the current economic situation, people who may listen to OWS folks. However these same people are against burning flags and pooping on cars. When they hear that stuff, they will turn away from OWS as they think they are crazy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

218. You mean like they tried here in San Diego

and OSD is still going.

[Mz Pip]

82. No they didn't end the anti-war movement

but they weren't helpful in keeping Nixon out of the White House, either.

[Joe the Revelator]

18. OWS has gone about this the wrong way since about week 3

Sad really. They had promise.

[AtomicKitten]

216. I was appalled when Atlanta OWS turned away civil rights hero, John Lewis.

[gulliver]

19. Occupy needs to disavow the flag burning imbeciles.

The masks are suspicious and make me wonder if this isn't a James O'Keefe-inspired stunt. OWS needs to do something to set standards for what is and is not OWS. Otherwise, you are bound to get all sorts of halfwits with their own agenda and obnoxious ideas. We don't need setbacks for OWS, and we certainly don't need imbeciles and infiltrators having an easy way to hand Republicans and the 1% issues in the election.

[arcane1]

25. I disavow anyone who hides their face

And when I see them at protests, I avoid them like the plague.

To me, it signals "trouble-maker", and whether they're a cop or a protester is almost beside the point. Face-hiding is a practice that should be frowned upon, and those who do it should be shunned.

[Union Scribe]

54. It may also signal "I'm trying not to be overcome by tear gas."

[backscatter712]

236. The black bloc tactics were originally created to foil police snatch-squads.

You know the tactic. The cops single out anyone acting like a leader, leading the chants, making speeches, using the bullhorn, and all of the sudden, half-a-dozen to a dozen riot-gear-equipped cops built like linebackers plow through the crowd, grab him, drag him behind the police phalanxes, beat the shit out of him, arrest him, trump up a shitload of felonies to keep him in jail... You know the drill. Anyone who's been in the protesting business knows this drill.

So to foil the cops who are ever-present with cameras, photo-books of known rabble-rousers and snatch-squads, everyone started covering their faces. That's really all the black bloc is. Of course, the anarchists, being big targets for the police thugs, adopted the tactic. And of course, the provocateurs adopted the tactics to help discredit anyone protesting.

[2pooped2pop]

73. I think Occupy

disavows any violence in their purpose statement. This shit is not acceptable to Occupy, but it's just more juvenile anarchist or provacatuers.

Odd how the media was so good at getting these pics but we have to rely on our own media to get pics of police brutality for the most part too.

[Joe the Revelator]

20. And why are they covering their faces like a bunch of black bloc chumps?

[T S Justly]

33. Like these chumps?

[Joe the Revelator]

37. Is that suppose to make it less chumpy?

[Cali_Democrat]

41. Nice response

[hack89]

45. You are correct - it is wrong to hide behind a mask. nt

[Zalatix]

105. Well said! Rules for thee but not for me!

[joshcryer]

114. Heh, sweet response.

[dana_b]

48. smoke??

just one possibility other than being "chumps".

[Warren DeMontague]

21. There is always the chance, however remote, that this sort of action will prompt

some deep introspection by the human animal on its tendency to confuse not just the semantic maps via which it interprets reality with the actual reality itself, but also the omnipresent confusing of symbolic representational totems with the concepts or actualities which those totems represent, i.e. confusing the symbol with the thing, the icon with the file, the map with the territory, the menu with the meal.

Prob'ly not, but a man can dream.

[nobodyspecial]

22. Stupid thing to do

How many people in the civil rights movement wore their own riot gear to marches, taunted cops, destroyed property and burned flags. The movement succeeded because it was peaceful and nonviolent. It was clear to anyone watching who was the aggressor and who started the violence.

The photo of the people sitting on the sidewalk who were pepper sprayed was powerful and persuasive. This just alienates most people.

[Joe the Revelator]

24. Exactly.

[unionworks]

95. the flag burning

Was done by black block, and theyare probably snitches working for the cops and other interested parties.

[tawadi]

100. I wondered if it was a ploy too

Then I thought maybe I was just be a conspiracy theorist. I'm not sure what to think.

[lovuian]

26. It isn't going to end oppression

and the more they oppress the worst it is going to get

[gulliver]

27. Look at picture two. One guy is holding up a sheet of paper with "Occupy Oakland"...

...and the bozo in the mask to the right is filming with his cell phone. Setup.

[RZM]

32. That's not evidence of a setup

They were doing this in full view of everybody. It was a public event. If you're taking the time to protest in public, it's because you want people to see it. Otherwise protests would happen behind closed doors.

And everybody and their brother has a camera phone now. That this guy has it out isn't evidence of anything except the fact that he has a camera phone.

[gulliver]

39. Mainly the guy with "Occupy Oakland" on his little piece of paper

I think it's definitely evidence of an intentional setup. We have masks, a guy with a backdrop trying to make sure that Occupy Oakland (and, therefore Occupy) gets blame. No telling what group it was, but they definitely know how to make a damning photo with a built-in caption.

I'm not saying some Occupy splinter group isn't responsible, and that it isn't a dumb thing to do. But someone is trying to make really, really sure that the flag-burning gets tied to Occupy. We have people like James O'Keefe out there setting up situations, and the Republicans and Tea Party are getting increasingly desperate.

[RZM]

52. Why wouldn't he? It was an occupy Oakland event.

That's the thing. Occupy is not trademarked. Anybody can wave a sign and anybody can say they are part of the movement.

This has been discussed from the beginning. There are benefits to being open and decentralized. But there are drawbacks too. This is a good example of the latter. If you want to reap the benefits of an open movement, you gotta be prepared to accept the consequences of it.

Of course I can't rule out shenanigans. I wasn't there and I don't know these people. But I'd be very surprised if we discovered this gang of doofuses was working for Andrew Breitbart. There are people like this out there. This is what they do. It's not pretty, but it's life.

[gulliver]

75. I would like to see the guy with the sign (and big old grin) identified.

Has he been in previous Occupy Oakland events? Will he show up in any others? He has a big smile on his face. That's not a protesting look in my book. That's mischief.

It just feels wrong. Someone who is clever enough to make sure there is a caption backdrop for a photo knows what mischief it is. They know it will outrage people against Occupy.

It doesn't have to be Breitbart. It could be just about anyone. A few young College Republicans out for some fun is all it would take. As you note, Occupy has no identity enforcement, so it is open to being exploited and sabotaged. This is just too pat. I'm not saying it is conclusive, by any stretch.

[2pooped2pop]

81. and those people are not occupiers

they just jump on the bandwagon for trouble, then disapear.

Only if I see that these are the same faces of the people who hold that camp and are actual members of that occupy group will I believe that this was not a little added fluff for the media.

How come they can get all these great shots of this flag burning but seldom get the ones of the police kicking our faces in?

[pintobean]

91. chowder66 has a link you might

want to read. Post #14.

At the meeting, the group discussed consequences for both the flag-burners and a small sect of members who issued a news release denouncing the burning without first clearing it with the whole assembly, according to the group’s website.

Half of the group threatened to leave the camp if those who burned the flag were not kicked out, while the other half threatened to leave if they were kicked out.

[joshcryer]

115. "while the other half threatened to leave if they were kicked out" Good.

[Remember Me]

140. Sounds like infiltrators to me

And it sounds like they're succeeding not only in getting bad press but also sowing discontent and disharmony. PERFECT -- for TPTB.

[pintobean]

141. You obviously didn't read the story

Here's the link. Be informed.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/12/flag-burning-at-occupy-charlotte-creates-divide-among-members.html

[Remember Me]

242. Okay, I read the whole damn thing and wouldn't change a word of what I said

What made you think I was ill -informed?

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

163. The black bloc masked idiots want to discredit OWS, just as they did the anti-globalization movement

They're nihilists seeking attention and have no concern for what their actions do to the movement.

[ellisonz]

170. +1000

[JNelson6563]

28. Those doing this were either

a special kind of stupid or very clever. They're either Occupiers who are over-zealous and their actions are incredibly detrimental to the effort. Or they're assholes who want the Occupiers to look really bad.

Hard to tell.

Julie

[Capn Sunshine]

70. As I mentioned in another thread, there is money available to infiltrators

There have always been those who pay amoral idiots to get in with a group and try to make it look as bad as possible. Think Koch Brothers and Dick Armey.

When I was with the anti War movement in the 60s-70s it was the fathers of these guys paying assholes to throw rocks at cops and burn shit on the fringes of the demonstrations. There were also FBI stooges working at the behest of these same interests. Add that to the anarchists and Marxists who think this movement is the new revolution and youget assholes doing stuff like this.

[unionworks]

97. Aye, Capn! n/t

[JNelson6563]

129. Hi Cap'n!!

Great to see you!

I have long suspected what you say here, wouldn't surprise me if this were the case here, at least in part.

We had a Dem event here last night and some folks from the local Occupy effort came. They were young (college age) and very bright, positive energy. We were all so glad they came and gave them a BIG welcome. It was great.

I hope it's all good in the world for you my dear. Have a campaign-related question for you but will PM you later on that.

Cheers!
Julie

[Posteritatis]

29. Meh, there's been plenty of bad-looking Occupy photos already and it's still going. (nt)

[Duer 157099]

30. Shooting the messenger?

Seems to me the flag-burner is responsible for their own actions, not the person who snapped the photo.

[Cali_Democrat]

34. Yes...the movement is now dead and the 1% can declare victory.

It's time for all the occupy protesters across the country to go home because somebody in Oakland burned a flag...

[HopeHoops]

61. I'll trust that was sarcasm.

[Cali_Democrat]

69. I didn't think the sarcasm tag was necessary because the premise of the OP is so absurd

[HopeHoops]

74. You got post number sixty-nine!

The tag wasn't necessary. That's why I posted a reply. Yes, 'twas absurd.

[Cali_Democrat]

80. Yay me!

[HopeHoops]

87. Always a good thing.

[SammyWinstonJack]

201. heheheh

Seriously though, the one-percenters/banksters/corporate America have burned the lives of millions but we should be OUTRAGED because a flag was burned by possibly a ows protester fighting for the economic equality of the majority of us?

[Starry Messenger]

36. You mean the right wing might start disliking Occupy?

Say it isn't so.

[nobodyspecial]

40. No, some average people who believe in the overall concepts of OWS

may not think it's OK to steal a flag from city hall and burn it.

[Starry Messenger]

46. Do those "average people" live in Oakland?

The country has huge problems, record poverty and foreclosure. We are living OWS. If anyone has a flag hangup, I daresay they are still eating regular meals in their comfortable home.

[nobodyspecial]

51. Actually, lots of people who are in the 99% have a roof over their heads and food

And this is going to a worldwide audience.

And yes, lots of people have a "flag hangup." And this alienates them.

[Starry Messenger]

58. I seriously doubt this will shift large numbers of actual supporters.

I would hope anyone with a sense of priorities would be more concerned about the woman OPD put in the hospital with injured kidneys.

[fascisthunter]

113. you hope it will harm OWS

but fortunately it's a much larger movement that one incident will not stop... it will grow... enjoy!

[nobodyspecial]

131. Where did I say that?

I don't hope that at all. I just fear that it will. I've protested many places, including in D.C., but I have never taken part in such actions.

[rhett o rick]

134. Your over concern for the flag in light of the brutality suffered by the protestors is sickening.

The movement is here. Pick a side.

[RZM]

43. That's not the point. The right is already against it

They have been since day one.

But burning a flag will turn people off on the left and center. Most people support our first amendment right to burn a flag. But that doesn't mean those same people are happy when somebody actually does it.

[pintobean]

47. No, not just the right wing

If they had burned their own flag outside city hall, yes. Going inside and burning a city flag, that will piss a lot of people off, regardless of where they are on the political spectrum.

[RZM]

65. Among the discerning, you might be right

But most of the damage will come from the image of the burning flag. But for some it will matter how they did it.

If somebody wants to burn a Bible, Talmud, or Qu'ran, I really don't care. Not what I would do, but live and let live. But if you enter a house of worship, steal their copy, and then burn it on the front steps, I do care. I supported Terry Jones' right to burn a Qu'ran last year because I think it's protected speech, even if I personally disapproved of his actions. I wouldn't have felt the same if he had stolen his copy from a mosque.

[JSnuffy]

120. Well said...

[hack89]

49. No - unengaged Democrats will not extend their support. nt

[Union Scribe]

50. Wishful thinking? nt

[HopeHoops]

55. While I don't approve of such actions, it is protected by the Constitution.

It is also the correct way to dispose of a tattered flag, but that's obviously not the intent here. I doubt it will destroy the cause. Flags were burned during the Viet Nam protests but the movement still had force behind it. The cop who is stepping on it is actually committing a more offensive act.

How many SUV's have you seen with GOP bumper stickers and ripped up window flags thrashing around? How about the teabaggers in their flag costumes? Both are violations of the US Flag code, but that isn't a law - just a set of rules for proper respect. I'll admit to forgetting to bring mine in at night and failing to properly illuminate it, but other than that I try to follow the code with one exception: I still have the flag I put out on 9-11 and it is well tattered. It is mounted upside down for times when I believe the country to be in distress - like when the shrub stole a second term. My other flag is clean and in good condition. I don't fly it every day, just on days of particular significance.

[dems_rightnow]

59. You understand that they burned somebody else's flag, right?

That's not a constitutionally protected form of speech. They can burn their own stuff, not other people's stuff.

[HopeHoops]

71. Yes, that part is both theft and destruction of another's property. That part's a crime.

I still wouldn't condone it if they had brought their own flag, but the act itself is legal. I have no problem with them facing charges for the theft and destruction aspects.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. Perfect tactic for an anti-OWS provocateur

There's a LONG history of provocateurs disrupting demonstrations by doing things that are certain to alienate the general public.

Like the black bloc types breaking windows at the WTO demonstrations in 1999, they grab all the attention while the peaceful, responsible protesters are ignored by the press.

I've seen this movie before.

By now DUers should be suspicious of any alienating acts allegedly committed by protesters.

It's a shame that they take all the claims at face value.

[Capn Sunshine]

76. see my post above

That's exactly how this appears to me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. And it just got big play from my local news station

the most conservative one. This is a station that otherwise doesn't cover national news, but they made an exception this time.

Yup, provocateurs.

[2pooped2pop]

84. only about 3 people on every occupy post

you can expect them here to slam it every chance they get. The way I understand it is they work for dems in office who can't get support from OWS, since they don't walk the walk for the people.

They may or may not be paid to be on here. I wonder sometimes. They question acts by physical provacatuers even though they do the same tactics with posts.

[Historic NY]

102. Just say its anarchists......people will say its nothing more than ...

other protests once the picture circulate. It apparent they have something to hide. Its not the first instance out there in Oakland.

[baldguy]

241. +1000

[Scurrilous]

60. City Hall damaged by Occupy protesters

<snip>

"ABC7 got an exclusive first look Sunday morning at the mess Occupy Oakland demonstrators made inside City Hall on Saturday night. In total, nearly 300 protesters were arrested during a day and night of confrontations with police.

City Hall became one of the targets of demonstrators when a few people managed to force their way in. Mayor Jean Quan showed us the damage which included a broken window of a conference room, some papers strewn around the front lobby area, overturned displays, and some graffiti scrawled on some of the walls. Also, the California and American flags were taken from the front mezzanine area out onto the front steps of City Hall and burned.

Saturday night, the mayor and her staff said that their tolerance for violent Occupy demonstrations in Oakland has come to an end. A visibly flustered Quan voiced her frustration with this latest demonstration.

"The Occupy Oakland has got to stop using Oakland as its playground and that people in the community and people in the Occupy movement have to stop making excuses for his behavior," said Quan on Saturday night."

<snip>

"The demonstrators issued an email saying, "Occupy Oakland's building occupation an act of constitutionally protected civil disobedience was disrupted by a brutal police response."

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=8523318

[hedgehog]

62. Well regardless of who set the flag on fire,

you'll notice it's a police officer stomping all over it!

[HopeHoops]

79. I also remember some wingnut (O'Reilly?) ranting about a "liberal" doing that.

Actually I think it was an art exhibit (not exactly what I would call art) where some guy was tramping around on a flag and inviting visitors to do the same. That was a couple of years ago. If memory serves me right (not always the case, mind you), there was another one where somebody defecated on a flag. I don't get the "artistic" perspective of either actions, but hey, this is America.

[Zorra]

64. Dang! I'm totally amazed that the 1% didn't think of that!

Execute a plan to send in some flying monkeys to break into City Hall, steal a flag, and burn it for all to see? Easy, simple, effective, as well as cost effective - very little overhead.

Geez. The 1% hires the best minds in the world right out of school to forward their agenda, and they can't even come up with a simple trick like this to turn public opinion against Occupy?

Of course, the kind and benevolent hard RW 1%ers would never do anything so underhanded, would they?

Please, let me know as soon as the flag burners get arrested.

[The Doctor.]

173. Yeah, I've been noticing that too.

With all the acts of vandalism, where are all the charges?

[Bonobo]

77. Yawn. Sounds more like wishful thinking by a DU'er. nt

[mmonk]

85. Injustice will not endure because of pictures.

The human condition determines such outcomes.

[mdmc]

86. I disagree

My parents and gf had no idea this happened..

[markpkessinger]

88. I just posted this to Occupy Oakland's Facebook page . . .

Dear friends of Occupy Oakland -- Please take a look at the attached article that appeared on Democratic Underground. The pictures in it appear to show Occupy Oakland protesters burning an American flag. I really hope you can tell me that those who did this were not part of Occupy Oakland. As someone who is old enough to remember many of the various protest movements of the '70s, and as someone who is behind the occupy movement 100%, if it is the case that these folks were members of Occupy Oakland, may I offer just a word of advice? No, I don't regard myself as some kind of oracle or anything. But I have been around long enough to see how easily many a fine protest movement has lost its way. Take it for whatever you think it's worth . . .

Again, IF it was Occupy Oakland protesters who did this (and I've also been around long enough not to discount the possibility of paid provocateurs), please hear me when I tell you that NOTHING will undermine the Occupy movement faster or more effectively than stunts like burning an American flag. Right now, the Occupy movement has a great deal of support and goodwill among the public at large. That goodwill will be critical to the movement's success. I would urge you, in determine if the flag burning was in fact carried out by one of your members. If it was -- actually, even if it wasn't -- consider making a public statement to the media that the Occupy Movement does not endorse, and in fact renounces, such actions.

I would also urge you to consider renouncing the use of bandanas and masks to cover faces (something that was evident in some of the photos in the attached article). In the eyes of many in the general public, the use of masks will immediately render you suspect. If you believe your cause is just, then put your whole identity behind it. THAT'[s how you gain, and keep, credibility.

I know, I know -- you don't want to censor viewpoints, etc., or dictate how people should protest. But if you want a really clear picture of what happens to a group or organization when it refuses to set some outer limits of what will be tolerated among its ranks, may I suggest you need look no further than the state of the Republican Party in trying to choose a Presidential nominee. In a cynical attempt to gain votes, the GOP, starting many years ago, began allowing its most fringe elements to run wild both in rhetoric and action, and has generally refused to reign them in for fear of offending them. It is not surprising, then, that they are faced with a slate of unelectable candidates, each of whom is trying, in one manner or another, to out=crazy the others.

I believe the entire Occupy movement is at a critical juncture at the present moment -- a juncture which will require it to define, at the very least, what it is not. Please, friends -- your movement is too important -- to ALL of us -- to blow it now. Occupy has done so much that is right, and they have done those things right, that to allow your movement to be undercut by some very ill-considered (even if passionate) actions would be an utter tragedy.

Here is a link to the article with the pictures: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002239093#post35


Your friend,
Mark Kessinger

[pinboy3niner]

89. I think the more powerful and impactful image is this one...

In this photo taken Oct. 25, 2011, 24-year-old Iraq War veteran Scott Olsen lays on the ground bleeding from a head wound after being struck by a by a projectile during an Occupy Wall Street protest in Oakland, Calif. (AP Photo/Jay Finneburgh)

[socialist_n_TN]

196. Putting it in a nutshell. Thanks pinboy......

nm

[SammyWinstonJack]

202. That should OUTRAGE every American!

[CJCRANE]

90. Good luck telling that to the rest of the world.

Occupy is bigger than a few guys with a flag.

[zbdent]

93. A member of a church which routinely calls abortion providers "murderers" goes and murders a doctor,

it's a "lone wolf" ... at least, according to the (allegedly) "liberally-biased media" ...

Watch this (otherwise referred to as a) "lone wolf" be painted as the prime example of the average OWS protester ... by the (allegedly) "liberally-biased media" ...

[EC]

94. And again we have a person in dressed all in black

with a scraf on his face. Wasn't it already determined in Canada that these guys were cops themselves TRYING to cause trouble?

[greytdemocrat]

96. This is why I stopped supporting OWS...n/t

[fascisthunter]

111. surrre

[SammyWinstonJack]

203. LOL

[Odin2005]

98. Why am I suspicious that these asshats are police infiltrators?

Something seems fishy, here.

[tiny elvis]

167. because they walked free?

Police prevented an afternoon attempt by protesters to enter the city's idled Henry J. Kaiser Convention Center. Demonstrators then headed to the nearby Oakland Museum of California, where arrests occurred after an order to disperse was ignored.

Later in the night, marchers entered the downtown Oakland YMCA, where hundreds of arrests took place. The City Hall break-in occurred about the same time, officials said.

But Quan said Sunday she believed officers had modified their tactics to better single out troublemakers.
"We're tired of one faction using Oakland as their playground," Quan said of demonstrators intent on clashing with police.

In a morning tour of the damaged City Hall, Quan pointed out that a room with a smashed door and toppled soda machine is used for classes for low-income, first-time homeowners. Several flags that had adorned the grand staircase were missing.
City Council agendas and trash littered the floor in the building's grand lobby. Although some graffiti had already been removed, evidence of the previous night's mayhem was visible in broken display cases.
Near the door, a more than century-old architectural model of the regal structure was toppled in its case.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-occupy-oakland-20120130,0,6365053.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fnews%2Flocal+%28L.A.+Times+-+California+|+Local+News%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

[madokie]

99. I believe this to be the work of someone other than the OWS protesters

black ops and trust me the cops use all kinds of illegal ways to cause shit like this. Make it look like the protesters were doing it when in reality it is infiltrators with one thing in mind and that is to discredit the movement. The big man is worried about this movement and will stop at nothing to stop it before we all grab our pitchforks, so to say, and come after their stinkin thievin lowlife sorry asses

[blogslut]

101. Fuckin' Black Bloc

Those people piss me off.

[Broderick]

103. Someone needs to blame the real villain

Beck!


Wonder if he will sleep good tonight knowing about this op. hmmmm.

[libinnyandia]

107. I think displaying a Confederate Flag is just as bad as

burning an American flag.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

108. Oh, dear! Tsk, tsk. Get the smellin' salts.

[mmonk]

181. LOL

[SammyWinstonJack]

205. ....

[Marrah_G]

109. This looks like a set up to me.

[jsmirman]

112. Just remember that when assessing the supposed Animal Rights "Feldheim Incident"

no arrests ever made, no one identified as having done it, no group laid claim to it.

The answer is we just don't know.

But for anyone to put it past people with significant interests riding on discrediting the people trying to discredit them... no, I do not find it unreasonable to wonder if it something is a planned stunt.

[fascisthunter]

110. No, But I'm Sure you hope it does

what some will do for that 1%

[AdHocSolver]

116. Logic says that this flag burning stunt was staged by an anti-OWS group.

There is nothing to be gained by OWS people in burning a flag.

OWS is against the 1 percent wealthy who are crushing this country. OWS is NOT against America. OWS is fighting FOR America.

The only ones who might gain from pulling a stunt like this are the 1 percent who want to discredit the 99 percent.

[fascisthunter]

117. "OWS is NOT against America.".... exactly!

[pintobean]

118. Please read this

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/12/flag-burning-at-occupy-charlotte-creates-divide-among-members.html

[JSnuffy]

121. No true OWSer...

This is ridiculous.

Anytime they do anything that doesn't meet some intangible standard they are denounced as "provocateurs"

I'm even willing to admit that in the rare chance, it might even be true. However, this is trotted out every time an asshole does something assholish.

The simplest solution is the most likely one and it reeks of desperation to haul this out every time.

[New7up]

119. Funny how people who burn things are almost always masked.

It smells of agents provocateurs.

[JSnuffy]

122. Yeah.. that...

or they don't want to be identified and charged with theft and arson.

[SomethingFishy]

124. +1 No shit. You'd think that after all the shit stirring

the cops and feds did in the 60's and early 70's, shit stirring exactly like this, people wouldn't be so quick to assume these were actual OWS folks.

It never ceases to amaze me that people don't learn from history.

The OP said "people will never look at OWS the same".. probably not. Which means whoever set this up did their job well.

[RZM]

138. Have you read through this thread?

If you have, you've probably seen the links to the story about the flap over a flag burning at Occupy Charlotte.

I'm all for learning from history. But I happen to think that the history of the FBI in the 1960s-70s is less relevant here than the history of OWS in 2011.

Truth is, there are people out there that believe burning flags is the right way to get their message across. They aren't all that numerous, but they do exist. And sometimes they burn flags. It happens.

[Major Hogwash]

123. K&R

Great pictures!!

Thanks Robb.

[2ndAmForComputers]

125. Remember a guy named Parlock a few years ago?

Why was he in the news? My memory fails me. Do you remember, Mr. Robb?

[Vattel]

126. These things happen.

All sorts of people particiapte in large protest movements, and some will express their justifiable anger in ways that some find offensive. It can be argued, of course, that flag burning doesn't play well with most Americans and so should be avoided for pragmatic reasons, especially when a good photographer is around. But how many people who would dismiss OWS because of a couple of burnt flags were potential supporters anyway?

[socialist_n_TN]

198. "But how many people who would dismiss OWS because.........

of a couple of burnt flags were potential supporters anyway?"

That's proven in this thread. I've noticed the ones who are most doom and gloom about this flag burning are the same ones, IN EVERY OCCUPY THREAD, who are against the Occupy movement for one given reason or another anyway. The truth is, Occupy is a protest against the WHOLE SYSTEM OF CAPITALISM. Even if they don't acknowledge it themselves, Occupy is against the exploitative nature of the systemic abuses that are inherent in the capitalist system. That's threatening to some people. So they'll take turns denigrating Occupy or demonizing it.

Everybody might as well get used to the fact that there are going to be people against the Occupy movement, even liberals. It doesn't surprise me because liberals (I guess I should say some liberals and ALL neoliberals), just like the RW, have a stake in the system itself and the Occupy movement is a protest AGAINST the system. That's the same system that has and will continue to fuck over the 99% in favor of the 1%.

[Vattel]

232. Well-said.

I would add that some will inevitably attack OWS because it hasn't embraced their exalted leader.

[Enrique]

127. if that's all it takes to end the movement

then the movement never had a chance. There's no way to prevent that from happening, whether it's real protesters or plants.

Fortunately, that's not all it takes to end them movement.

[DiverDave]

128. 1st amendment rights.

They have the right to do it.
Yeah, it will make the knuckle heads blow a gaskit, but what doesnt?

[pintobean]

130. The 1st Amendment doesn't give them the right

to destroy shit that isn't theirs.

[DiverDave]

177. Your right

stealing is wrong m'k?

[nobodyspecial]

132. They don't have a right to steal the flag out of city hall to burn

Next time, they should bring their own flags.

[rhett o rick]

135. Shame on you. Shame on you. You might as well shoot teargas canisters at Occupy

persons heads. Shame on you.

[Zhade]

136. You wish.

NT!

[SwampG8r]

139. i can tell by the gold braid that

this is an admiralty flag and not the official american flag it holds no domain on dry land
i dont know how to do sarcasm smilies

[JackRiddler]

142. Wow. That's a pretty ambitious headline and I'm quite disappointed...

at how lame it is when I click on it. Please don't waste my time. Because if you just headlined it accurately - "Flag burning in Oakland" - this thread would get a lot less attention, and I wouldn't bother to click. Are we really that fascist now, that a few protesters burning some fabric (in the middle of days of police riots!) is going "to end the Occupy movement"? Don't you wish! One of the most pathetic threads ever, and very revealing.

Instead of playing scary propaganda games you should just express your opposition to Occupy sincerely. That would earn a lot more respect.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

143. The usual suspects recc'd it too.

[pintobean]

144. What are we suspected of?

[Bonobo]

148. Yes, the correlation is unmistakable.

One cannot help but ask why it is that the staunchest and most conservative supporters of the president who defend even egregious assaults on the constitution are the same ones quickest to believe the worst of the OWS protesters.

Is it because they can easily be fooled by propaganda and agent provocateurs or is there some other reason?

[joshcryer]

161. I find the whole "agent provocateurs" meme to be itself propaganda...

...intended to divide the Occupy movement, by trying to pit us against one another. As if last night wasn't going to end one way and one way only. People were going to be arrested if they stood toe to toe without expressing their free speech rights. One of the most emblematic images of the protests was a protester throwing back a tear gas canister at the police, with much pain, no doubt, and unwashable paint on their body for later identification. A truly courageous act, likely seen as a felony by the powers that be, and easily denounce by those afraid of "agent provocateurs."

[Bonobo]

166. Overthinking.

Agent provocateurs are not memes. They are demonstrably real techniques employed by the powers that be to make the protestors look bad.

Everything after that in your post I agree with -which is to say that yes, throwing back a tear gas canister is brave.

[joshcryer]

168. Sorry, I probably shouldn't have directed that at you.

I don't think that you are using it as a meme but I am seeing it elsewhere, someone posted in this thread that there was a similar incident where people in Charlotte burned a flag and they were trying to be voted out, free association and all, half of the members were going to leave if that happened. Once you are a big group it becomes increasingly difficult to 1) remove all abhorrent behavior, and 2) maintain cohesiveness. I feel that this attitude that some people who aren't behaving don't represent their idea of the group to be a very dangerous route, particularly if the group says they represent 99% of everyone (by definition bad behavior should be represented).

For what it is worth I am against all forms of violence like this, even burning the flag. But I defend those who do it unless there is actual evidence it was an agent. And even if an agent did it I'd still defend the act if a Occupier did it, and I wouldn't find it controversial or wrong at all. In my mind the best way to do it is to embrace such acts of free speech, because if there are those who agree with the act, you're back in Charlotte again, worrying about whether or not your group is going to splinter over perceptions games. And if it was an agent? Well, he'd have succeeded at his goal.

I'm against property destruction because I find the broken window fallacy window to not be a fallacy at all, and that in the end these actions merely contribute to exchange systems... but that's way too philosophical for this time of the night on a work week...

[Whisp]

182. sure, Mikey did it.

:yawn:
because we know that all anti-Obama and anti-establishment people are beyond criticism and have the purest of thoughts and deeds in their perfect heads.

[SammyWinstonJack]

206. This^

[whatchamacallit]

235. +1

[Rex]

146. Really?

[donheld]

147. Occupy Isn't going away at all.

Much to your dismay.

[NotThisTime]

149. I'm entirely for Occupy but this image does it no good, however it came about, whoever did it, it

does the movement absolutely 100% no good

[Warren DeMontague]

150. It'll be interesting if the people who actually burned the flag get charged, with names released

or if they somehow melt away, are never heard about again, and it turns out that "gee, no one really knew who they were, they showed up at the last minute, which we thought was sort of odd..."

[Rex]

152. How many months now have we seen the DU soothsayers declare

OWS dead...because of X, Y and/or Z? Nothing new on DU...same formula, different event.

[Warren DeMontague]

153. I'm just wondering if these flag-burners were for real.

Certainly seems like it could have been an agent provocateur type thing.

[Rex]

154. Dunno, but I hardly see how it will destroy

a movement nationwide.

[Warren DeMontague]

155. I don't think so, either.

But given that they arrested a whole shitload of people, the process of seeing whether or not the actual perpetrators are charged with anything (as in, they're for real) or if they disappear (they were agents)... might be worth paying attn. to.

[pintobean]

156. The reports I saw said there were

no arrests made at city hall. All the cops were making arrests at the YMCA at the time.

[Rex]

157. I agree completely with that.

Very interested to see who they (really) are.

[joshcryer]

165. People were witnessed walking away freely without zip ties from the Y arrests.

I have no doubt agents were there. I don't see it having changed the outcome much though. It's all a perceptions game and I bet somewhere some guys wrote up a memo saying that you need to stir shit up to make the Occupy movement look bad. Hey, it's worked to some, to others, we overlook it, because we accept that yes, some in the movement may act autonomously and do things we disagree with.

[Bonobo]

169. Shit-smearing OP is shitty.

In the face of the lopsided violence perpetrated by the Oakland PD, I can think of no purpose to this OP other than to smear a movement with shit.

It has fail written all over it.

[Cali_Democrat]

176. +1000

[Hassin Bin Sober]

211. +1000

[Prometheus Bound]

171. I'm curious, was "casting asparagus" in your last line intended to be humorous?

[quinnox]

172. LOL, wishful thinking and beyond absurd OP

Let's see how dead OWS is come Summer time, I have a feeling all the anti-OWS crowd and the "very concerned" folks will be disappointed to see OWS is just getting started and will continue to grow and become a real force in America.

[Firebrand Gary]

174. More masked individuals? Really?

I don't buy it.

[Bonobo]

178. "But I promise you, no one will think of Occupy the same way ever again after today's AP photos."

Any other completely baseless and unfounded promises you want to make?

[Starry Messenger]

219. I'm sure we'll get plenty of opportunity to find out. nt

[RetroLounge]

179. Yeah, wishful thinking

all hopey and changey even...



RL

[Bluenorthwest]

180. The editorial comments of the OP remind me of 'stuff white people said post Watts'

and again after Rodney King Trial unrest. 'No one will take them seriously anymore, those people, they do that in their own city! Someone needs to tell them how it looks to us!'

[Octafish]

183. Probably Agents Provocateurs

False flag, literally.

[Rex]

207. Hit and run tactics.

Just like we see here.

[pintobean]

209. Are you suggesting that

Robb is an agent provocateur?

[Rex]

213. Actually I was talking about the people that burnt the flag.

But since you brought it up (thanks), do you deny 'hit and run' tactics by posters here on DU? I see it all the time.

[pintobean]

223. You brought it up.

Yes, we see it all the time, but I wouldn't apply it to Robb. In context, that appears to be what you did.

[Rex]

225. No you are insinuating that is what I did.

I don't see Robbs name in my post nor do I believe what you are suggesting. HOWEVER, the thread itself is an obvious 'hit and run' thread and very disappointing.

[mackattack]

184. No structure to it

allows anyone with any goal to claim legitimacy under the "Occupy" banner. Its like baptists churches. Anyone can start a baptist church, and as such, you get normal ones and craaaazy ones.

What we have here are people exercising their first amendment rights. However, we know what burning and desecrating a flag, while legal, carries a huge political cost. It will be much harder to win over the fence sitters once they see this.

If you want to bring change, you need to be more buttoned downed and polished than the opposition.

[chrisa]

185. Typical anarchist scumbags in these pictures

Daddy pays for everything, probably including that lighter.

[CrispyQ]

187. My first thought was a segment of a speech,

given by President Andrew Shepherd, in the movie "The American President."

You want to claim this land as the 'land of the free'? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the 'land of the free.'"

[nobodyspecial]

197. Do those rights also include entering a building and stealing the flag

you are burning?

[SammyWinstonJack]

208. *whoosh*

[nobodyspecial]

210. Yes, crazy me

Thinking people can't simultaneously protest and not steal or vandalize property. After all, that's how civil rights were won. Wait a minute...

[mackattack]

189. Tea Party

shows up to a rally with racist signs and they say crazy things (obama is a muslim, kenyan, marxist). Naturally people see that the tea party is crazy.

People show up to Occupy rally and burn american flags and poo on cars. So naturally people will assume that these are just bad individuals and not representative of the entire movement?

No, they will think the OWS movement is fully of crazies.


It works both ways, people.

[justiceischeap]

191. If these photos impact support of OWS, all OWS has to do is say

look at the first photo, we tried to stop them. They are outliers. There have been groups that have been more extreme at all the big occupy rally's/marches and they're actions haven't ended the movement yet. I think people are intelligent enough to know, that the flag burners are extreme and not the overall majority of who makes up OWS.

[ecstatic]

192. This happens when there is no clear mission

They went very off track last night. Stick with the purpose of Occupy and avoid petty, off putting displays such as this.

[jpljr77]

193. Yay! Let's blame the media.

Let's just adopt the Right's basic knee-jerk reaction and blame the media for capturing and reporting on stuff that happens, rather than those that actually did it.

These people did this. A photographer was there. Pictures were taken. Whose fault is it again? (if there is even any backlash in the first place)

[mike_c]

194. no complaints from me....

Never mind that inequality and class injustice have become a way of life in the U.S. Horrors! Someone burned a flag!

Note to self: always carry matches at Occupy events....

[Arkana]

195. While I think that burning a flag is sure as hell not going to help Occupy's cause,

I don't by any means think this is the end of the movement. Fuck, the Tea Party has guns and racist signs, and yet they're still around.

Occupy has already accomplished something huge--they've gotten a conversation about income inequality started in this country. That accomplishment cannot be understated--it's something that never happened before the Depression in the 1930s and I honestly think it will go a long way towards preventing the kind of meltdown that happened then.

[SammyWinstonJack]

204. The repugs with some help from the dinos have crapped all over

the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and very few Americans have noticed or couldn't give a shit. But this, this is something to be OUTRAGED about? Really?

[nadinbrzezinski]

212. You mean just as it ended in 68?

Flag burning is free speech, and it is protected speech and it happens.

But to say that this will end a social justicie movement is ignorant of history.

By the way those are the black block... anything else you want to know?

Oh and if I had been there with camera I would have taken the photos and sent to my editor... they are news worthy.

[GeorgeGist]

217. They hate US for our freedoms.

So naturally it is offensive to exercise them.

[morningfog]

220. That would suggest that the movement has survived so far from support of a

significant number that will end support upon seeing a flag burn.

I don't think that flag-burning is anything more than free speech, nor do I think there is a sufficient number of Occupy supporters who will end support because of this.

The flag is a symbol. Burning a flag is a symbol, too. I think that most reasonable people understand that. I also think the Occupy movement is beyond the sacrosanct protection of a flag.

As for how the police and local governments will react, it won't really be any different. They have been escalating their crackdowns for months now. This won't really change that.

[Evasporque]

222. Tactical boots...on guy in Jean Jacket...

First he has a lighter in his hand....then he has a camera...

finally the only person in a jean jacket with light wieght hightop boots....

[Bruce Wayne]

224. Black Bloc extremists--often cops. Occupy should respond by flying Old Glory proudly

Occupy is a highly patriotic group. They need to show their true colors now and disavow people who insult the symbols of the country Occupy is trying to save.

[zbdent]

226. hmm ... with "facial recognition" software, the cops will probably be able to identify

the perps ... (not perps as in "did something illegal", since burning the flag is protected "free" speech, just like funding attack ads on Democrats)

even with the "masks" ...

if the police don't announce that they've ID'd the "perps" ... I wonder who they may have been working for?

on a side note: In 1993, Howard Stern was doing a live broadcast from Cleveland. A felony was committed when an "intern"/fall guy from a rival radio station cut the cable feed ... FCC violations. The judge (running yet again for re-election Tim McGinty, and yes, he is a "Dem&quot gave the rival radio station a pass, and the "intern" got a slap on the wrist, because he was perpetrating against Howard Stern. Not surprisingly, the radio station became property of Clear Channel, which, in Cleveland, went up against Howard Stern in the market.

significance: If the flag-burner(s) did this for "the Right people" ... look for leniency, if not outright shrugging of the shoulders of the people controlling the "facial recognition" software.

[KamaAina]

230. Yawn.

Flag burning is, like, so 1992.

[Obamacare]

231. Man

Faux News is going to have a field day when they get a hold of these pics.lol The public's perception was already not good for the occupiers, but now no one will take them seriously if the msm shows these pics. I knew this was going to happen sooner or later.

[whatchamacallit]

234. Oh Noes!

Someone desecrated Old Gory (not a typo).

[2banon]

237. Might this be a Cointelpro Operation?

Anyone consider the possibility? Classic tactics straight out of the play book.

[Nevernose]

240. A lot of us suspect exactly that, I'd wager

But will most people looking at the picture on the nightly news? Or, more to the point, will my mother?

Ok, not MY mom. She's kind of hard core. But what about normal people's mothers?

And I said to my wife on Saturday: Occupy Oakland says 3000 people. If that number is accurate, then that means 100 are undercover cops from local, state, and federal governments, and another 500 are informants. And all it takes is half a dozen jackasses to jeopardize an entire movement.

[2banon]

243. That's essentially what was done in the 60's & 70's

Kill the movement by discrediting the "members" vis a vis all manner of violence and destruction and much much worse. It isn't new but this history seems to be forgotten or virtually unknown with every generation of activists, unfortunately.

But the State apparatus always has these tactics in their playbook and they put in operation with great dispatch. They control the media and therefore the message and the images. And voila. Case in point, look at the hand wringing against the movement in this thread alone. sad.

[Nevernose]

247. And just in the last decade

Look at the informants being paid to spy on the Sierra Club, or the undercover FBI agents "infiltrating" Quakers meetings, or the guy who recently tried to convince his environmentalist buddies to start lobbing Molotov cocktails, or some of the "jihadist" plots recently exposed to be FBI entrapment.

Someone up thread posited that, if COINTELPRO type activities were still going on, they'd update the playbook. Why, when the old plays have worked so well and keep on working for them?

[2banon]

255. exactly.. who could forget cointelpro w/WTO, ant-war (iraq/afghan)demos and on and on

and as you say, why update or improve on tactics that continues to work so well?

[backscatter712]

238. OMG, somebody set a piece of cloth on fire!!! EVERYBODY PANIC!!!

That burned piece of cloth could destroy a worldwide movement!!!!!!!!!!!11111one

[LeftyMom]

239. Thanks for your concern! nt

[lonestarnot]

246. You've got to be kidding me right? Free Speech exercise whether by infiltrator or OWSer end OWS,

not a fucking chance.

[jberryhill]

251. Stealing something and burning it is a "free speech exercise"?

Sorry.

A "free speech exercise" is burning your own stuff, not stealing one which does not belong to you and burning it.

[lonestarnot]

256. I was not there. I don't know who stole what.

[jmowreader]

248. James O'Keefe, is that you?

Someone find that fucker, because, while it is not outside the realm of possibility that real but stupid Occupy protesters did this, James O'Keefe has made a name for himself by setting people up then fucking them. I'd be more than willing to bet that either O'Keefe himself, or someone else who thinks like O'Keefe, is responsible for this.

[rocktivity]

250. Diefenbach isn't the one who burned the flag.

And if we don't have the right to burn the flag, we don't have the right to display it -- or turn it into a smiley.


rocktivity

[Robb]

252. FYI, there is now video available (link)

Pictures tell a story, but perhaps not the whole story; a link to the inevitable video is here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10179708

[pintobean]

254. Thanks

[Taverner]

253. And some DUers cheer this because democracy takes too much work