"Occupy Using Oakland for Playground"

[unionworks]

From U.S.A. today - "

"Democratic Mayor Jean Quan inspected damage Sunday, and police said officers had been hit with bottles, metal pipes, rocks and burning flares. Three officers and a protester were injured.

At a news conference, Quan urged the Occupy movement to "stop using Oakland as its playground." In October, police dismantled an Occupy camp in Frank H. Ogawa Plaza.

Occupy Oakland said in a statement that most arrests were improper because police "gave no option of leaving or instruction on how to depart."

Oakland Councilman Ignacio De La Fuente said police acted appropriately and some Occupy protesters engage in "domestic terrorism."
"

Using Oakland as it's playground? Crying over some damage to city hall after the violence the Oakland police have inflicted on peaceful protesters?

[jimlup]

1. I wouldn't accept her view of events as being completely consistent with objective reality

It is hard to say in a case like this without more detailed observations. But I'm not taking the mayors word as "true without question."

[unionworks]

2. WHO ARE the PLAYGROUND BULLIES THEN, QUAN?

?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1319677819287

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. Her own little private army just like bloomberg's own little private army NYPD.

[TheWraith]

3. The "peaceful protesters" claim loses something...

...after said protesters broke into City Hall, wrecked some of the decor, and stole the flags in order to burn them.

[JDPriestly]

9. Are there videos of the individuals who wrecked the decor and stole flags

to burn? Can those individuals be identified?

Others in the Occupy movement who did not wreck things or steal flags should not be judged, beaten and punished for the actions of the few.

[randome]

15. There is supposedly video of 'protesters' breaking in the door to City Hall.

And no one was punished for the actions of the few. OWS tried to take over a public building and the police were assigned the job to stop them.

I am not excusing over-reactions that occurred but any time you have two large groups in a combative situation, shit happens.

Look at the atrocities some of our military committed in Iraq. Those actions should not reflect on the heroic service others do but they should not be excused, either.

[loyalsister]

38. The occupy movement should take responsibility

They have created a chaotic environment. The assumption that anytime anything bad happens it is the cops or an infiltrator doesn't fly. The environment is a creation and whatever goes wrong within it is the responsibility of the creators- if they want to take credit for anything good that comes of it.

[JDPriestly]

67. The flag-burning is irrelevant to the message and purpose of OWS.

Flag-burning is a 60s thing. It's the sort of thing people would do if they wanted to appear to be protestors but weren't really OWS and didn't understand what OWS is about. It's the kind of thing that police provocateurs or saboteurs of the OWS movement would do.

I visited the OWS site in LA and also walked in the Rose Bowl Parade with OWSers. The OWS people I met were not at all angry. They seemed to spend a lot of time talking together, listening to each other, working together.

Since they allow each person to speak in an orderly process, listen to each other, work out problems in a genuinely democratic fashion, there is little time or reason for people to be angry. Everyone is pretty much included. The people from OWS that I have talked to have been amazingly gentle and kind. They are anything but militant.

The flag-burning was not, in my opinion, done by the OWS group -- the group that governs itself by consensus.

Oakland, however, may be quite different from LA. Oakland has this long history of problems with the police. That is why the federal courts are considering putting the police department under and order.

If you want to know about OWS, you need to visit a site. The press does not understand the movement. It is not hierarchical or authoritarian. It's just too difficult for most people in the press to understand anything that isn't hierarchical and/or authoritarian.

[loyalsister]

68. "They" just don't understand me" is a childish excuse

Does OWS think they are going to change the media? Why would they not try to use the media to recruit bystanders?

I have talked to more than one person who thinks it's been "fun" to protest. Why not admit that there may be some people involved who romanticize protesting and might be willing to do something as stupid as burn a flag, then disavow the behavior? I'm sure there was no consensus to burn the flag, but to deny that a member did it is ludicrous.

The people who identify as occupiers have good intentions, but are committed to an impractical idea that is not representative of people beyond those who are actively involved\committed.

[JDPriestly]

70. OWS is not "some people."

The press and people who have never visited an OWS site do not understand that OWS is a process. They have committees that handle everyday matters and make proposals to the General Assemblies. But in each OWS camp, it is the General Assembly that makes the decisions about what actions will be taken, etc. And the flag-burning was obviously not an action that was agreed to as is the rule with the General Assemblies of OWS, by consensus.

The press does not understand the OWS process because they like to go to an "event" and "interview" a few "representatives" of those putting on or "organizing" the event. It is impossible for the press to understand that OWS is a democracy. It is direct democracy in action. The conservative press does not want to believe that direct democracy would produce anything but chaos. Therefore, the press refuses to really look into what OWS is about.

OWS is a harbinger of political action for the future. Too bad that so many people don't understand what it is really about. It is about being there and participating in the decision-making and actions.

[loyalsister]

73. OWS includes the "some people" I mentioned

The MO of OWS enables people involved to behave without standards because there is not real leadership or structure. If it is simply a "process" what is the goal of a physical presence? Is every single person a part of the "process" or are there people involved who do not take part and have hitched themselves to an unrealistic vision of anarchy and protesting?
The picture you paint is one of teenagers a pouting about not being understood.

It's not that this movement is misunderstood. The problem is a failure to make themselves understood. Mass communication has been a part of successful movements. OWS should try to use it to their advantage rather than demonizing a press because it doesn't always report favorably.

[JDPriestly]

74. OWS is using mass communication.

It uses Twitter and Facebook and sites like DU.

The press deserves to be demonized because it makes demands that all movements and all people organize themselves so as to make it easier for the press to categorize, ridicule and demonize them.

OWS is democratically organized. If you attend a General Assembly or watch one on the internet, you will understand it is extremely well organized. Do people who attend those meetings or who simply like the ideas of OWS act on their own? Yes. But they are not OWS.

OWS is a direct democracy. Lots of people support its activities with activities of their own that are not OWS. Inevitably some of those activities that are not OWS, that were not agreed to in an OWS General Assembly or planned by a committee of the OWS will occur. And some of them will call themselves OWS. They really aren't OWS. They may or may not be acting in the spirit of OWS, but only actions agreed to by the consensus of a General Assembly in an OWS group are really OWS.

I think there is a certain amount of fear and even jealousy on the part of people who criticize OWS. Often, people who criticize it are disappointed that it isn't doing what they want. That's pointless.

OWS is what it is. A person either likes working in a group in the way OWS does or they don't. People who need a lot of structure will not like OWS. That's fine. Nobody insists that those people like OWS. But it is a waste of time and energy for such people to criticize OWS for being what it is and not what they think it ought to be.

If someone thinks OWS should be better organized, then that someone should organize a movement of his or her own. That goes for all the critics. Just passively criticizing a movement is not the answer. Starting a movement that meets one's own criteria is the answer. Of course, that is a lot of work. OWS has done the work. And if OWS no longer exists, it will, by definition, have served its purpose and everyone will move on to something else. That is fine. That is the way life works.

[loyalsister]

75. I'd like to see some kind of success

Although I don't know what it would look like. No one fears this movement, and people who are involved with realistic opportunities are certainly not jealous.
I have my own criticisms of infotainment, but I'm not dumb enough to pretend they don't reach a lot of people who matter. The belief that anything real can be accomplished without the involvement and support of A LOT of other people, who at this point really don't care, is extremely naive. Seriously, 99%????? The numbers do not come anywhere close to legitimately speaking for even 20%
The complaints about the press reminds me of a person I heard whine that the 8 hour days unions fought for are designed to control her. I have wondered if that complaint includes anger at the sun which, by social contract, we arrange our days around?
"The news" is organized information. OWS does not offer that rendering it's supposed goals\process as meaningful as disorganized letters and nonsense words to the average person.
I am active in the disability rights movement. We have accomplished a great deal and continue to do so.
I hope OWS finds a way to offer some kind of sensible agenda that people can relate to. For now it is only about the people who are directly involved and their rebellion against local ordinances.

[TheWraith]

47. There's photos, don't know about video.

Also, that comment about not punishing everybody for the actions of a few goes the other direction, too, but some people here seem convinced that all police officers are fascist pigs intent on torturing innocent people.

But as far as responsibility, it does come down to it that the entire premise of the protest was to seize City Hall and a couple other city properties that the protesters thought should belong to them. Busting in was the point. And deciding that you're acting in the name of the entire public doesn't excuse that, particularly when the entire public doesn't actually support you.

[Rex]

49. And of course some people here think

all protesters should just STFU and go home. Thankfully we have many rational people here that live somewhere in the middle of those two stupid, 'black and white' views on OWS.

If protesters started some shit by throwing firecrackers...then they are lucky the police didn't kill them.

If cops start to beat people up and abuse their power, then they should be held accountable since that is NOT their job.

It really IS that simple folks.

[JDPriestly]

65. Agreed!!!

[JDPriestly]

64. City Hall belongs to everyone.

The Oakland police have a serious problem. Their over-reaction to the demonstrations is not the first indication of it. This has been going on for years.

The officers are supposed to be the grown-ups. They aren't acting like it.

Handling thousands of demonstrators is difficult. Police officers sign up to do a difficult job. It requires self-discipline, excellent judgment, maturity, the ability to control one's temper, a gentle, tolerant soul, the ability to earn the respect of the people with whom you deal and the ability to control crowds and angry or dangerous people.

In return, police officers have steady work for decent pay and really good pensions.

The Oakland police have not proved that they have what it takes.

If they were teachers, many of them would have been fired for incompetence long ago.

[donheld]

66. It's all right here

[JDPriestly]

76. If you haven't already, please post this in the group for videos.

The cop was a PR guy. He looked very good at making things up. He did not understand the facts. A person with expertise on body language and lying should be asked to review the video.

In my inexpert opinion, the cop was not remembering events that he had seen. He may have been guessing about what happened. He was just too glib, too quick to say what happened.

Normally when you talk off the cuff without much thought or preparation about something you remember, you don't remember everything in order. You remember certain things and more things and then the more things remind you of things you left out in the things you already discussed. His "speech" reminded me of rehearsed or thought-out narratives I have heard people give when asked an open question. If anyone asked him for more details on certain events or mixed up the sequence of events, he might contradict himself. Maybe not, but I think there is a strong likelihood that he would.

[unionworks]

4. And when the bully gets hit back

[JDPriestly]

6. The problems in the Oakland Police Department precede

the Occupy movement by a number of years as the federal court case indicates.

Police officers are respected in most communities. The Oakland PD has a bad reputation.

I don't think you can judge or measure the Occupy movement by what happens in Oakland.

Remember UC Davis

Police brutality is a big problem in some areas.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

7. Breaking into a building? Come on people use your brains.

Who here believes that Occupy would achieve their goals in a matter of months?
Think before you act, violence is not good for any movement.
Let me be clear here, I am very pro Occupy, it's probably our best last chance to bring about meaningful change not only for the US, but for the entire world as well.
But it sounds like a lot of folks are accustomed to fast food and want an instant fix for problems that took decades to reach this point.
To work, Occupy MUST REMAIN NONVOILENT.
The Occupy movement must win over the hearts and minds of a lot more people, including the police.
It can only do this by using brains instead of brawn and not burning flags.
OCCUPY EVERYWHERE !

[EFerrari]

14. How do you break into a building whose door is open?

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. Good question. nt

[Luminous Animal]

18. Yep. The door was open and a few people walked in.

But that doesn't stop people from saying over and over again that they broke into city hall.

[randome]

22. There is supposedly video of 'protesters' breaking in the door to City Hall.

Don't know if it's valid or not but that's what is being said.

[T S Justly]

25. We know it's being said, and now, we know by whom. Supposedly. Lol!

[randome]

26. Right.

I am the source of all OWS rumors that put them in a bad light.

Well, me and my corporate masters.

[EFerrari]

39. Was Elvis there with Bigfoot? People are also saying, Occupy was rioting at YMCA.

Also false. They were kettled and being gassed, so YMCA opened the door to let them go through and out the other side. People say a lot of stupid things.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

48. Soo my front door is open, does that give you the right to walk in,

does that make it OK?
Oh, and lets take something too.
Occupy is a worldwide movement and not just a lets have fun today thing.
Expect the police to act like police. Make sure they get the bad press and not Occupy.
We need to train the protesters on how to play the game. I have been playing this game for over 45 years now, the object of the game is to get the public to support your goals.
We have to win for nothing less than the future sustainability of the world.
We are the 99%.

[T S Justly]

53. Depends on what you're doing, why you're doing it, and if it presents a danger ...

To the public. And, if officials sworn to protect the public refuse to stop you, first. Now, why would you be leaving your door open?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

59. So that's your answer to grow Occupy?

[T S Justly]

69. That's my answer to you. (nt)

[hobbit709]

54. Unlike your house, City Hall is a PUBLIC building.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

60. So that's your answer to grow Occupy?

[Luminous Animal]

56. City Hall is the People's House.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

61. So that's your answer to grow Occupy?

[Rex]

51. Well that does sound better for their particular agenda.

I mean, if you hate OWS, you want to say 'they broke in' instead of 'they walked in, the door was open' takes all the PUNCH out of the propaganda sails it does!~

[unionworks]

8. When the "PLAYGROUND BULLY"

get's hit back, finally, in desperation...

THE VICTIMS ARE DOMESTIC TERRORISTS

Oakland Councilman Ignacio De La Fuente said police acted appropriately and some Occupy protesters engage in "domestic terrorism."

"We have allowed things to really get out of hand," he said, "and the escalation is becoming … a very dangerous problem for us."

[LooseWilly]

71. When Oakland taxi drivers tried to unionize, De La Fuente sided with the taxi company...

which, "coincidentally", was based in his district of the city.

De La Fuente talks about his union ties, but when shit was shaking out, he sided with the owners rather than the teamsters (Local 90) or the taxi drivers who were looking to unionize in order to create a little leverage in workplace negotiations.

I am not surprised he would turn to the "domestic terrorism" charge... he never demonstrated any innovation in his previous moves to side with the bosses, so why start now with innovation in his sycophantry?

(Makes me wonder who the "us" he refers to in that final quote are...)

[unionworks]

72. My thoughts

And from what you are telling me, this guy and a handful of others on city council may be the actual root of the problem. I won't elaborate, but I think you know what I mean.

[unionworks]

10. Strange Days

...have found us...

[unionworks]

19. Those chords

...keep running through my mind like a chainsaw

[Starry Messenger]

11. Well, the cops are using it for wargames.

She might want to look into that.

[gopiscrap]

12. Fuck the Mayor and the city

one of the reasons this keeps coming up in Oakland is A) just as vereywhere people are pissed about the economic and social social inequity running rampant in our country and B) the Oakland pigs are a bunch of violent agressive redneck mother fuckers just looking to put the hurt on some one! IMHO

[pinboy3niner]

13. Something to add to those "I am the 99 percent" messages...

Maybe they should now end like this:

I am not a domestic terrorist.

I am the 99 percent.

[unionworks]

16. Strange Days

...have tracked us down...

[vaberella]

20. First off this is an illegal assembly even if it started out peaceful.

From what I saw of the footage...the protestors weren't all innocent. Now keep in mind I abhor cops so I'm not here to defend them. But the cops in Oak seemed seriously tame to what I have seen in the past. And the cops had the power to do that given by the laws of the state. I love how people are supportive of breaking the law as long as it benefits them. However we can't have our cake and eat it too.

[morningfog]

21. What made it an "illegal assembly"? When did go from peaceful to illegal?

[randome]

23. Huh.

How about when they tried to take over a public building? That wasn't a protest, that was anarchy.

[vaberella]

31. This is true. They did do that and got arrested for it. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

37. The vast majority of the 400 who got arrested were arrested for peacefully protesting.

They were kettled blocks away from the convention center and then arrested.

[vaberella]

41. Are we speaking of Yesterdays protest or Saturdays.

Because I was talking about yesterdays. Furthermore it's irrelevant if they were peacefully assembled or not. The point was they were unlawfully assembled and why the cops got in their face.

http://occupypeace.blogspot.com/2011/12/unlawful-assembly-penal-code-sections.html

[Luminous Animal]

44. Saturday protesters tried to occupy the convention center. Also on Saturday, about 50 people...

protested at city and AND it was also the day that several hundred people were kettled and arrested.

I am not aware of any arrests in Oakland during the Sunday Solidarity events.

[vaberella]

46. I watched the live stream for Sunday not for Saturday.

So I know what went on then and there was a public building that had protesters but they were quickly removed. They didn't clarify which building. Since the camera guy wasn't there and I didn't hear what building it was since they were supposed to take a few buildings not just City Hall yesterday.

[Luminous Animal]

57. I've searched and searched and can find nothing about Oakland "taking" anything.

Yesterday, city hall was surrounded by cops all day and various officials showing the MSM around.

Saturday was Move In day. City Hall was not on the agenda to being "taken". The Occupiers were focused on taking one building only. The abandoned and empty Convention Center.

Perhaps you were watching a taped version of Saturday's events on Sunday.

[vaberella]

63. I was watching a live stream on Sunday.

The link was posted on DU actually. And it looked like it was for Sunday. Was City Hall meant to be moved into on Sunday or Saturday. I saw on the same link at Ustream the Saturday protests filmed. So I was sure I was looking at the Sunday protests.

[HangOnKids]

28. I was wondering the same thing

And the "eating cake" comment was very similar in a condescending fashion to Quan's statement about "a playground." Odd.

[vaberella]

32. Read post #30.

"Condescending fashion"--- Really? I prefer when things are done the right way and the legal way because I don't like shit biting me on the ass. I have been to a few illegal protests in my past and I have hated it. When it's legal it's something else because then the police shouldn't be harassing you but protecting you or at least being around to not antagonize someone. When something is illegal it opens a whole can of worms and you open yourself up to condescending remarks, ridicule, and hostility. Most of the time legal protests are just disregarded or ignored by those who would do the above. Like the DailyShow march to the White House. Legal assembly and ignored. The OcOak one is a bit different.

[unionworks]

29. It went from "peaceful to illegal"

as soon as they got their provocateurs in position to give them their excuse to do what they've been doing to Oaklands citizenry for years now

[vaberella]

30. It was an illegal assembly because in the state of California you need a permit.

If you watched one of the streaming videos; the Ustream one that was taken. The police officer clearly states that if you do not have a permit to assemble then it is illegal and they didn't have a permit to do what they did. This is why the cops were involved. I don't think they would have gotten the permit anyway..but they might have. However we do that they did not and hence it was illegal and the police.

As far as peaceful. The OcOak cops clearly stated that if they continued what the outcomes would be. They were warned and informed before hand and explained why they needed to dismantle. The additional thing going on during this protests were that cops were using it to raid some of the protestors. Apparently some may have had extending warrants. One of the protestors even attested to that and stated he was picked up because they believed he had a warrant and then when they confirmed they did not...they released him. They gave him a hard time but this was from his own mouth. You can find this on the Ustream video.

Not to mention there were people throwing rocks at the cops. Look I hate cops like the next person as I said...probably more so because of my past harassment. However, it doesn't help you or your cause when you get on the offensive with cops. This is captured on tape and even the camera man mentions it and he's on the occupiers side. There is one thing protesting...which I have done and sometimes illegally. However, I don't throw things at the cops or say things at the cops. I try to ignore them until I do what I can.

[unionworks]

33. Believe it or not

...I do not hate cops! I wouldn't want their job, they have to look at the dark side of humanity every day and they don't get paid nearly enough for what they do. I know plenty of cops deserving of respect and I give it to them. What some members of Oakland PD have been doing is in another plane altogether.

[vaberella]

35. I'm from New York.

I hate cops. However I have two cousins and a guy who's like my uncle who's a cop/detective respectively. I just don't like NYPD and as a result I abhore the whole lot. From what I can see the OPD hasn't seemed so bad. I found the cops in New York to be out of control and the thing is those protesters had permits.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Permits are not State law issues, they are city issues. NYC requires them....

Al Sharpton says he does not get permits. Just so you know that. Also you should know that OPD is 9 years late on making federally ordered changes to policy, and just last week a judge told them they might get placed under Federal control. OPD history is awful, racist, murderous and thus far unchecked.

[vaberella]

45. I don't know what Al Sharpton has to do with anything.

He's a special case all together and it helps when his super close friend is Rangel. So he doesn't play into this in any way shape or form.

I already read up on the case on OPD. It is listed lower down in this thread. So your not saying anything new. I find that in that case the OPD situation is not so much of relevance. It just seems like something there and we know they have been out of control and needed to make changes. But from what I have seen on the footage they are much tamer than I think people are considering and even some protesters said the same. They know they have mass cameras on them and are seemingly not as aggressive as I was expecting.

I think it's hardly unchecked if they have decade long court cases on the changes that needed to be done. What has happened is that the state officials and I wonder if they're Dems have failed to follow through on these changes.

Thank for the clarification in any event they did not get the city permit. There is a link on this here:

http://occupypeace.blogspot.com/2011/12/unlawful-assembly-penal-code-sections.html

[Bluenorthwest]

42. Read up on OPD. They make NYPD look good.

And that's not easy.

[vaberella]

43. I did.

Mass arrests were the main difference. But when a cop throws tear gas directly in an old lady's face who was in the sidelines...like in NYC...that's a problem. Especially considering that woman was following his orders and most of those protesters had permits by judges to do what they did. And getting beat up and rubber bullets were part and parcel in NYC so not too different from OPD. New York is special.

[Nevernose]

50. And in the city of Oakland the police are required

To leave open at least two paths of egress for dispersal of assemblies, whether those assemblies are legal or not. So when people are surrounded on all sides, then told to disperse but left with nowhere to disperse to, bad shit happens. It's not even an illegal protest until AFTER people refuse to disperse. That's why the rule was made in the first place, and that's why the vast majority of the arrests were illegal.

[vaberella]

62. In the Sunday protest they were not surrounded on all sides.

And in actuality, many of the same police officers that were blocking them from entering City Hall were the same police that came to them at one of the streets. Giving them ample places to go and ample time with plenty of multiple warnings.

It would seem, and from the video I saw that many people refused to disperse. I was looking at over an hour of footage I wonder what 2 or 3 hours would say.

[hobbit709]

55. I don't remember anything in the Constitution that says you need a permit.

[unionworks]

24. The Tree

[unionworks]

27. Oakland PD Facing Federal Takeover

for abuses going back over 10 years.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/oakland-police-department_n_1237785.html

[vaberella]

36. So this whole thing doesn't have to do specifically with OcOak situation.

Since it's a decade old problem that is being addressed with the OcOak videos pushing it along. Well that is different situation.

[unionworks]

58. nail meet hammer

Excellent conclusion

[Agony]

34. So what?...Wall Street is using the country as their playground. That's the whole point...Duh!

...actually WS is using the world as their playground...

[Rex]

52. Yeah but that is okay, the PTB don't have a problem with that.

The PTB have a problem with citizens not wanting to get or stay fucked over by some faceless corp. The PTB one day will work for that faceless corp as CEO or did a number of years ago. Funny how that all works out...