What do you think of Zimmerman's dropping of the Stand Your Ground defense?

[Tab]

I'm not sure what to make of it - what do you think it means to his strategy, and/or his interpretation/argument of what happened?

[HockeyMom]

1. Zimmeran(self appointed "security guard") was stalking Martin

in an apartment complex, not his own home, that Treyvon had every right to be in. How the hell can Zimmerman claim SYG?

[NightWatcher]

2. He's dragging out the trial date cause he knows he going away

And he knows he'll be in prison for quite a while.

[dkf]

3. Lawyer: State's most important witness in George Zimmerman murder case lied

SANFORD — Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, the state's most important witness in the George Zimmerman murder case, was caught in a lie Tuesday.

It was not the first piece of misinformation tied to her, but it was the most damaging to date and left prosecutors in a very awkward position.

They had to publicly acknowledge that their star witness had lied under oath and had to answer questions about what they intend to do about it.

Reporters asked: Will you charge the 19-year-old Miami woman with perjury?

http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-74674543/

[Melon_Lord]

4. Oops...

[Kingofalldems]

10. Oops what?

[In_The_Wind]

33. Oops...Melon_Lord

[img][/img]

[WinkyDink]

6. So what? She wasn't at the scene. The lies were tangential AT BEST (her age and here whereabouts on

the day of Trayvon's funeral. BFD!).

[slackmaster]

8. She was on the phone with Trayvon Martin until moments before the shooting

The phone records support that part of her account. Her input as to what Trayvon was seeing, hearing, and thinking could have been valuable, but she chucked it.

[WinkyDink]

12. "Despite's Tuesday's revelation, there is no indication the woman lied about what she heard on

the phone."

Don't know what you mean by "she chucked it." If you think her INCONSEQUENTIAL lies ( and please; a female's age would be considered a "fib" at best, in the real world) will negate her CRUCIAL testimony, I've got a bridge.....

[CatWoman]

18. now, now

you know better than to try to steal the haters' thunder

[slackmaster]

20. I've sat on a jury in a major criminal case. Even something that seems inconsequential WRT the case

e.g. something a witness said about his or her age, can be very damaging to the credibility of that person's testimony if it is clear that the lie was intentional.

Court is not like the real world. A good defense attorney could make mince meat of her. There is a real risk that the jury could simply decide to disregard every word she says. The jury I was on did that when we decided that the testimony of the defendant's mother, and that of his brother, were not believable because they had axes to grind. We didn't decide that they were liars, we just threw their testimony out the window because we had no way to determine which parts of it were accurate.

[Bake]

24. It's not like Zippy has been exactly forthcoming and honest either

What legal defense fund? Oh, that one.

Bake

[slackmaster]

25. IANAL but I think his best strategy would be to keep his fool mouth shut

But he won't.

[Bake]

28. I agree. He is unable to keep his mouth shut

And that's what will get him convicted. He's gotta be the client from hell.

And IAAL ...



Bake

[Travelman]

26. Goes to credibility

She will show a pattern of lying to the authorities when she's put on the stand*. That makes her very impeachable as a witness saying that she was on the phone with him at the time. From the defense's standpoint, they will easily be able to say that what she claims their exchange was on the phone isn't true, and that she can't be trusted in what she says.

Effectively, she's worthless as a witness now. That's one club taken out of the prosecution's bag. They would be foolish to even put her on the stand, so the entire telephone call, whatever happened during the call, effectively ceases to exist as a piece of evidence.



*ETA: worse still, she will show a history of lying on the stand.

[slackmaster]

7. Her testimony could have been quite damaging to the defense if she didn't have a credibility issue

With her out of the way, the prosecution is going to have a very hard time disputing Zimmerman's self-defense claim.

Their problem is simply that there aren't enough credible witnesses to tell the story from the victim's perspective.

[Kingofalldems]

9. Physical evidence

[slackmaster]

11. Yes, that is what it's going to come down to.

There is quite a bit of that in spite of the terrible job the SPD did at the scene.

[Lurks Often]

14. The physical evidence as reported below

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/Zimmerman_Discovery.pdf

seems to support Zimmerman. See pages 183-184 for the EMT report

[dkf]

13. This is interesting as to strategy...echoes what you said.

Defense attorney Mark O’Mara said No. 8 could be the most significant witness in the case.

“You never want your star witness to be caught in a lie,” WFTV’s Sheaffer said. “Lie about one thing. What else could she be lying about?”

WESH legal analyst Richard Hornsby said it was a big deal. “It goes to the heart of what the defense argument is that she was likely coached, that she’s likely being untruthful,” he said. “I think it’s a huge revelation for the defense.”

http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-74674543/

Also this...

“The defense says Zimmerman could not have gotten away if he wanted to,” WFTV’s Kathi Belich said. “They’re saying it’s not stand your ground. It’s self-defense.”

[CatWoman]

19. fuck all that

bottom line is ZIMMERMAN STALKED AND STARTED THE CONFRONTATION.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. Its not clear that will particularly matter in court

[uppityperson]

15. She did not lie about anything to do with the case or trial though. Misleading subject line/title

[Pararescue]

16. It doesn't matter,

what matters is that she lied under oath and that's a big no no, it damages her credibility.
You can bet that the defense is going to bring that up at trial if the prosecutor chooses to put her on the stand.

[DollarBillHines]

29. I really doubt she will be brought to the stand.

She is, obviously, a dumbass.

Dumbasses make for poor cross-exam.

[Pararescue]

30. That's my thinking also.

This prosecutor sounds like a smart cookie and would know the pitfalls of putting a tainted witness on the stand.

[dkf]

17. Which makes you wonder why she would do such a thing.

Being caught in two incidences looks like a pattern.

[slackmaster]

5. I have said consistently from the very beginning that it's not an SYG case and never was one

Zimmerman's defense story does not fit the kind of situation that is covered by Florida's SYG law. They're going to present it as a traditional self-defense defense.

I believe the defense made a tactical decision to not annoy the judge by wasting time with an SYG hearing. Although such a hearing is a freebie that the defense is entitled to, I think they decided the probability of getting the case dismissed was so low that it didn't outweigh the annoyance factor.

[gollygee]

21. Am I imagining it

or do some people here seem to be gleeful at the thought of this witness losing credibility? She lied about where she was during his funeral (as if she couldn't handle being at the funeral and was looking for an excuse because she was embarrassed that she wasn't there) and lied about her age (as if she thought she was too old to date him and wanted to appear younger) but I don't see why that would suggest she lied in the moment about what she heard right then on the phone. She sounds like she was insecure about her age compared to his and not being at the funeral, not that she is generally a liar.

I can't imagine anyone is hoping Zimmerman will get away with stalking Trayvon Martin, goading him into a confrontation, and then murdering him. I certainly hope not.

[Pararescue]

22. I'm not gleeful that she lied under oath and possibly destroyed her usefullness

for the prosecution. She would have been a great prosecution witness against the Zman, but now, who knows, the prosecutor may not be able to put her on the stand.
Jurors take perjury pretty seriously.
We shall see.

[Travelman]

23. This isn't actually new, though it's being reported as if it is

The only thing "new" about it is that today was the day that the attorney officially said as much to the court.

O'Mara has said since back in August that he's not seeking "stand your ground:"

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/13/zimmerman-defense-lawyers-wont-argue-tand-your-ground-in-florida-shooting-case/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/lawyer-george-zimmerman-self-defense-article-1.1275249
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/13/zimmerman-stand-your-ground-trayvon-martin
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/george-zimmermans-lawyer-stand-your-ground_n_1775105.html
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/12459-zimmerman-will-not-rely-on-%E2%80%9Cstand-your-ground%E2%80%9D-defense-attorney-says
http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/08/14/george_zimmerman_attorneys_will_use_self_defense_argument_rather_than_stand_your_ground_statute_in_pretrial_hearing_.html

Plenty more links out there; these were the first several hits on google. You get the idea, either way, from a variety of sources.



His reasoning makes some sense, based upon the defense's theory of the crime: stand your ground is about not retreating in the face of a threat, but they are saying that Zimmerman was on the ground, pinned down by Martin, and therefore retreating would be moot. Ergo, rather than arguing an affirmative defense that doesn't actually apply, he's going to argue one that, at least according to how Zimmerman says it went down, does apply.

Whether or not you buy into the defense's alternative theory of what happened is up to you and ultimately the jury, assuming that it gets that far. My understanding is that there still has to be a hearing to determine whether self-defense is indicated, to be decided by the judge, but the hearing is different from the stand your ground hearing. I don't know the minutae of the matter, but I would guess that there are probably some different rules W/R/T evidence and such.

[Hoyt]

27. He can still use "self defense", which is essentially same thing.

While he should rot in jail for a major portion of his remaining life, I think he'll walk. Maybe hung jury.

[Pararescue]

31. One of the major witnesses against the Zman lying under oath

doesn't help the prosecutor any.
You may be right, we'll just have to wait and see.