Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

musical_soul

(775 posts)
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 08:58 PM Mar 2013

The truth about Hugo Chavez.

Okay, I realize I'm not always liked in this forum after what I said about gun control, and I'm about to do it again. Guys, Chavez was no saint. He did help the poor and help to reduce homelessness. That was a good thing, but he was also bad.

He tried to censor freedom of speech. If people loved him down there, maybe it's because they were sold the same story about him. He also tried to overthrow a legitimate government. I've often been against some of the tactics we used in the cold war because we did help overthrow some legitimate governments. Well, this guy tried to do the same thing.

I think others can explain it better than I can.

Here's a breakdown of his war on freedom of speech and press.

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/hugo-chavez-anti-free-speech-actions/

More....

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100205533/hugo-chavez-dies-socialists-might-see-him-as-a-saint-but-this-charismatic-conman-was-no-angel/

But at the centre of populist movements is usually an authoritarian personality, and Chavez had the will power and vanity required of banana republic Bonaparte. His bluster – wearing pajama suits and appearing on TV to harangue his enemies – disguised a darker design. Although his supporters often talk of the various illegal attempts to remove him from office, Chavez himself entered politics by way of a coup attempt in 1992 (the government he tried to overthrow was incompetent and corrupt but technically legitimate). He was a late convert to the ballot box and when he did finally form a government he wrote his own constitution and, even then, regularly broke its spirit. He persuaded a loyal legislature to grant him the right to rule by decree and he used it to pursue a revolution based on exploiting high oil prices to build a powerbase among the poor. His critics were basically anyone with an interest that conflicted with his – the Catholic Church, trades unions, private business, liberal parties. There is a global Left-wing myth that Chavez survived so long in power because his only opponent was the USA. In fact his domestic critics were plentiful, but they were either too divided to exploit their numbers or elsIn 2004 Chávez and his legislative allies conducted a political takeover of the Supreme Court, filling it with government supporters and creating new measures that make it possible to purge justices from the court. In December 2010 the outgoing legislators from Chávez’s political party modified the timeline so they could make appointments before leaving office: they appointed 9 permanent justices and 32 stand-ins, including several allies. Since 2004, the court has largely abdicated its role as a check on executive power, failing to protect fundamental rights enshrined in the constitution.



Here's what Human Rights Watch had to say about him in 2011.

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-venezuela

The weakening of Venezuela’s democratic system of checks and balances under President Hugo Chávez has contributed to a precarious human rights situation. Without judicial checks on its actions, the government has systematically undermined the right to free expression, workers’ freedom of association, and the ability of human rights groups to protect rights


In 2004 Chávez and his legislative allies conducted a political takeover of the Supreme Court, filling it with government supporters and creating new measures that make it possible to purge justices from the court. In December 2010 the outgoing legislators from Chávez’s political party modified the timeline so they could make appointments before leaving office: they appointed 9 permanent justices and 32 stand-ins, including several allies. Since 2004, the court has largely abdicated its role as a check on executive power, failing to protect fundamental rights enshrined in the constitution.

In 2011 Supreme Court President Luisa Estella Morales declared that laws in Venezuela “respond to an ideological purpose,” while Justice Fernando Torre Alba stated that courts “must severely … sanction behaviors or cases that undermine the construction of [Bolivarian] socialism.”


Say what you want about those who disagree with you. Say they're the enemy. Say they can burn in Hell. They have a right to exist though. Not only that, but taking away checks and balances is a danger to any country.

Prosecuting Government Critics

Several prominent critics of Chávez’s government have been targeted for criminal prosecution in recent years. The courts’ lack of independence reduced the chances of them receiving a fair trial.

In July 2011 Oswaldo Álvarez Paz, a former governor of Zulia state and member of an opposition political party, was sentenced to two years in prison for criticizing the Chávez administration on TV. Álvarez Paz was convicted of disseminating false information for saying that Chávez was not a democrat and that “Venezuela has turned into a center of operations that facilitates the business of drug-trafficking.” Álvarez Paz is serving his sentence on conditional liberty but cannot leave the country without judicial authorization.

Guillermo Zuloaga, president of Globovisión, remains under criminal investigation for allegedly disseminating false information and for offending the president. At a public meeting in March 2010, Zuloaga accused Chávez of ordering the shooting of demonstrators during the 2002 coup. In a June televised speech, Chávez expressed outrage that Zuloaga was still free. A week later police arrived at Zuloaga’s house to arrest him and his son for alleged irregularities in their car sales business, an investigation their lawyers said had been stalled for months. The two men, who were not at home, subsequently fled the country.

In March 2011 Rubén González, secretary general of the Ferrominera Orinoco Union, was sentenced to over seven years in prison for organizing and participating in a strike with 2,000 workers in Guyana to protest a government-owned company’s failure to comply with a collective bargaining agreement. González was convicted for incitement to commit crimes, restricting freedom to work, and violating the prohibition to enter security zones. Not only was the prosecution of González criticized by the International Labour Organization and Venezuelan unions, but it was also denounced by pro-government labor leaders in Venezuela. Upon appeal, the Supreme Court ordered another judge to re-try González. The case against González, who was released on conditional liberty, remained pending at this writing.


Now, if George W. Bush had people prosecuted for criticizing him or if people in this country went to jail after forming a strike, what would DUers say? Wouldn't they say that Bush or whoever else behind it was a monster? Even Bush never did stuff this bad. Why does Chavez get a pass?
23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The truth about Hugo Chavez. (Original Post) musical_soul Mar 2013 OP
Just curious... ret5hd Mar 2013 #1
Donald Trump advocated overthrow when Obama first won again. musical_soul Mar 2013 #7
hal turner...glad to see you supporting people like this...that or admitting we are as bad as chavez ret5hd Mar 2013 #18
Every Person You Named, Sir, Would Simply Have Been Killed Under A Real Tyranny The Magistrate Mar 2013 #2
Excellent post TomClash Mar 2013 #5
Exactly. silverweb Mar 2013 #8
Got anything to back that up? musical_soul Mar 2013 #9
President Roosevelt Was Elected Four Times, Sir: How Great a Threat To Democracy Was He? The Magistrate Mar 2013 #11
I don't think Roosevelt should have had four terms. musical_soul Mar 2013 #14
You Are Losing Coherence, Sir: Try To Maintain Focus.... The Magistrate Mar 2013 #16
Yeah I've been watching the threads around here... Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2013 #3
right, and that is why so much of his country is in mourning today, because he left the country niyad Mar 2013 #12
The citations were in the OP, I was agreeing with him. Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2013 #20
nothing about lula, or about your opinions, in the op, but nice try. niyad Mar 2013 #22
Lula was my own thing Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2013 #23
The truth about Hugo Chavez is that he is dead. Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #4
I am sorry--were you actually around during chimpy's time? do you remember the free speech niyad Mar 2013 #6
I was an anti-war activist during the Bush years. musical_soul Mar 2013 #13
so, as an anti-war activist, you think that two illegal, unjust and immoral wars based on lies is niyad Mar 2013 #15
The same old astroturf that has been debunked before here on DU. n/t Cleita Mar 2013 #10
As Cher said was the reason for divorcing Sonny, "He was a master.... Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #17
Gawd damn! He was just like an US Republican! RobertEarl Mar 2013 #19
'Chavez was no saint' Whisp Mar 2013 #21

ret5hd

(20,433 posts)
1. Just curious...
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:02 PM
Mar 2013

What was the name of that right-wing white supremacist guy here in the U.S. that had some kinda ham radio station was advocating the overthrow of the govt?

Yeah, I don't remember either.

I guess our govt is as bad as Chavez.

musical_soul

(775 posts)
7. Donald Trump advocated overthrow when Obama first won again.
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:10 PM
Mar 2013

He wasn't and still isn't taken seriously. That's the only righty I know of. Can you name a righty who advocates overthrow of the government who is taken seriously and loved?

ret5hd

(20,433 posts)
18. hal turner...glad to see you supporting people like this...that or admitting we are as bad as chavez
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 10:10 PM
Mar 2013

from wikipedia:
On June 3, 2009, Turner was arrested in New Jersey and charged with inciting injury to two politicians in Connecticut and a state ethics official.[44][45] The warrant issued was for inciting his website's readers to "take up arms" against the officials.[46] Two weeks later, Turner was re-arrested on June 24, 2009 at his New Jersey home for making threats against the judges of the United States Court of Appeals in Chicago.[47] When he was arrested, FBI officials seized 200 rounds of ammunition as well as three handguns and one shotgun. In federal case, Turner was denied bail.[48][49]

On June 30, 2009, the website for Turner's blog was shut down and replaced with a notice stating that the site has been taken down by Turner's family, directing interested parties to a blog for the Family of Hal Turner, with entries by his mother.[50]

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
2. Every Person You Named, Sir, Would Simply Have Been Killed Under A Real Tyranny
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:04 PM
Mar 2013

Many of them, in fact, were involved in plotting and pressing an actual coup against the government.

It is simply not possible to honestly portray the man as anything but a very popular leader, elected by thumping margins by the people of his country repeatedly.

silverweb

(16,402 posts)
8. Exactly.
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:12 PM
Mar 2013

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]And every election he won was carefully monitored by international observers, and proved to be considerably more open and equitable than our own elections have been.

musical_soul

(775 posts)
9. Got anything to back that up?
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:14 PM
Mar 2013

Just because they were critics of Chavez doesn't mean they wanted to overthrow him. Chavez is the one with a history of wanting to overthrow a government.

As for him being elected over and over again, two things....

1) Don't you think it's dangerous for a President to have a right to run over and over again? That has been a disaster in Russia and every other country where they had that set up. Imagine if George W. Bush got re-elected over and over again. That's a scary thought.

2) If he was elected over and over again, it's mainly due to a press that mostly allowed for him to speak and not his opponent. Furthermore, neither his opponent or anybody else could give much if any criticism of the guy. How was anybody supposed to win an election against Hugo Chevez? He cheated. Just like Putin cheated. He did the same media trick.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
11. President Roosevelt Was Elected Four Times, Sir: How Great a Threat To Democracy Was He?
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:21 PM
Mar 2013

For the rest, you can bestir yourself to learn about the coup directed against President Chavez ( with great assistance from the Bush administration, by the way ), and the people, including media magnates, involved in it. Always best to have some grasp of a thing before you set out to lecture on it....

musical_soul

(775 posts)
14. I don't think Roosevelt should have had four terms.
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:32 PM
Mar 2013

He was a good president, but no.

If a government was voted in, then it shouldn't be overthrown. I didn't exactly have warm, fuzzy feelings for righties who threatened revolution if Obama won. Why would it be okay in reverse?

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
16. You Are Losing Coherence, Sir: Try To Maintain Focus....
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:43 PM
Mar 2013

Earlier in his career, then-Col. Chavez did indeed press a coup, after having refused orders to fire 'for effect' into crowds of demonstrators, and in the wake of a notable massacre of several hundred demonstrators by soldiers who obeyed such orders from the government he rebelled against. As near as can be determined from your comments, you consider resistance to such a murderous authority a bad thing, branding a man as evil and unfitting him for public life.

Again, you make it abundantly clear you really have no clue about the matters you are commenting on here....

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
3. Yeah I've been watching the threads around here...
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:05 PM
Mar 2013

...and wondering the same thing.
I used to argue with the right-wingers in this country when Chavez and Lula both were elected at around the same time that Chavez would turn out to be an autocrat whilst Lula would be good for his country and leave it in good shape.
Which is what happened. The reason why was simple to see back then: Chavez was a military man, Lula a trade unionist. The one knows nothing except how to command, the other is a trained negotiator. The latter, I argued, would respect democracy, the former would trash it.
And so it went.

niyad

(112,432 posts)
12. right, and that is why so much of his country is in mourning today, because he left the country
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:29 PM
Mar 2013

in such terrible shape.

links, and citations, please.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
20. The citations were in the OP, I was agreeing with him.
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 12:39 PM
Mar 2013

Also, oil production has declined by mas o menos one third since 2000. That ain't success. He was a demagogue who left his country in measurably worse shape than he found it.
I was right re Lula vs Chavez, and I will guarantee you this: if policies don't change oil production will continue on the relentless downward trend they assumed under Chavez. The country will go into a tailspin, and everyone on here will blame the US, when we had nothing to do with any of it. He hobbled their oil industry and the blame when the country falls to pieces will be entirely his.

niyad

(112,432 posts)
22. nothing about lula, or about your opinions, in the op, but nice try.
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 12:51 PM
Mar 2013

hobbled the oil industry? meaning the oil bastards weren't getting rich screwing the populace. but, hey, keep parroting their line. we need the laughs.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
23. Lula was my own thing
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 06:15 PM
Mar 2013

Are you disputing that Lula left Brazil in better shape than he found it?
The FACT is that oil production is down sharply in Venezuela, and that is their principal earner. That is not and never will be a good thing, no matter how you try and cover it up with your witticisms, such as they are. That fact is cited in that table I linked to.
As for freedom, Venezuela is measurably less free for its citizens as well, which is what the OP was pointing out.
He spread some wealth around, which is a good thing. The rest was bad, measurably so. He was a demagogue, period. A left one, but for me that doesn't make him good. That just makes him tolerable.
Lula was a good leader. FDR was a good leader. They didn't curtail freedom or leave their countries worse off than when they started.

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
4. The truth about Hugo Chavez is that he is dead.
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:06 PM
Mar 2013

I never found him particularly interesting when he was alive. However, I would not make some strange attempt to antagonize those mourning for him by digging up a bunch of dirt.

Why can you not let it go?

niyad

(112,432 posts)
6. I am sorry--were you actually around during chimpy's time? do you remember the free speech
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:09 PM
Mar 2013

zones, the people harrassed by the fbi for posters saying bush was an idiot?

bush never did anything this bad? two illegal, unjust and immoral wars based on lies, NOT THAT BAD? I wish I could laugh, but I feel like crying instead.

oh, and by the way, exactly WHICH democratically elected govt did chavez overthrow? I missed that.

musical_soul

(775 posts)
13. I was an anti-war activist during the Bush years.
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:29 PM
Mar 2013

I know all about free speech zones. I remember once being in a cage when Bush came to visit the coliseum I protested at. I may have been in a cage, but I had a big mouth and the world could hear it.

Next, anybody could have back then and still do protest on a sidewalk. You can go on a sidewalk with a sign. As long as you don't block traffic, there isn't a thing that can be done about it. Anybody who has been an activist knows how to get around so called freedom of speech zones.

As for the coup....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela

Economic crisis in the 1980s and 1990s led to a political crisis which saw hundreds dead in the Caracazo riots of 1989, two attempted coups in 1992,[31] and the impeachment of President Carlos Andrés Pérez (re-elected in 1988) for corruption in 1993. Coup leader Hugo Chávez was pardoned in March 1994 by president Rafael Caldera, with a clean slate and his political rights intact.

niyad

(112,432 posts)
15. so, as an anti-war activist, you think that two illegal, unjust and immoral wars based on lies is
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 09:34 PM
Mar 2013

minor compared to what happens in venezuela? all the death and destruction, all the money wasted, and you think it isn't as bad as what is going on in venezuela? last I checked, pres. chavez did not declare war on two countries,

but continue with your anti-chavez diatribe. it's actually the best laugh I have had all day.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
17. As Cher said was the reason for divorcing Sonny, "He was a master....
Wed Mar 6, 2013, 10:02 PM
Mar 2013

he was a good master, but he was a master."

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
21. 'Chavez was no saint'
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 12:43 PM
Mar 2013

This cracks me up every time. I haven't noticed anyone here calling Chavez a saint. Where did You hear that?

Do you know any saints? I don't think even Mother Teresa was a saint.

This all or nothing is rubbish.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»The truth about Hugo Chav...