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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsStop Telling Women How to Not Get Raped
We need anti-rape campaigns that target young men and boys. Campaigns that teach them from a young age how to respect women, and ultimately themselves, and to never ever be rapists. In addition, we should implore our men and boys to call out their friends, relatives, and classmates for inappropriate behavior and create systems of accountability amongst them.
There are a number of men who do not understand what constitutes a “rape”, which is a consequence of the “stranger in the alley” falsehood presented in movies and popular culture. You don’t need a mask and a gun to sexually violate a woman. The truth is that rape can happen with a woman you are dating whom you’ve had sex with previously, in a monogamous relationship, and even in marriage. If one party withdraws consent at any time then it’s rape. Consent can be withdrawn by the words “no “or “stop” and in many states, a woman doesn’t have to say no at all. Consumption of alcohol can prevent a woman from being able to legally offer consent. Therefore, it is important for men and women alike to be very clear about their intentions and prioritize consent over the excitement of getting some.
Our community, much like society-at-large, needs a paradigm shift as it relates to our sexual assault prevention efforts. For so long all of our energy has been directed at women, teaching them to be more “ladylike” and to not be “promiscuous” to not drink too much or to not wear a skirt. Newsflash: men don’t decide to become rapists because they spot a woman dressed like a video vixen or because a girl has been sexually assertive.
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http://www.ebony.com/news-views/stop-telling-women-how-to-not-get-raped
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geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)If a man feels he has anything to add to that to 'clarify' he needs a big helping of STFU with a side dish of "get a clue."
ProfessionalLeftist
(4,982 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)wrong and needs to stop before he does something dreadfully wrong.
liberalmike27
(2,479 posts)Can you tell women to be careful? I realize it's always the guy's fault, if he won't stop etc...but I hear stories, and I just think "Why did you go up to the room," or "Why did you drink drinks from people, or leave it unattended." I realize it isn't the woman's fault, but I just want women to exercise care, and understand there are a lot of predators out there. Just do your best to not get separated from the herd, you know!
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)I wonder if you realize how little men have to worry about such things and how often women do. I'm sure from a male perspective,it may seem like a simple fix,but it is depressing that the answer even comes up as " live as if you are a hunted animal" without you even questioning how restrictive that is for a human being.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)Christ, these threads are always so fucking depressing.
MsPithy
(809 posts)LOL Cats, day! Yipee!
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)He's aware and sympathetic. He's only trying to add another arrow to our quivers. Snap at him w/o due provocation and you'll only succeed in driving off a supporter. When it comes to "living like a hunted animal", only a fool fails to keep his or her eyes open for danger. That goes for men AND women. I take more risks than most people want to think about, partly because I think I'm an adrenalin junkie. But they're calculated risks with the odds in my favor, not blind ones in service to some imaginary freedom.
If you're not too angry yet, bear with me for one of my beloved short stories. I visited a famous blues roadhouse where one of my favorite musicians, a friend, used to play. Even though I nursed a single beer for hours, I always kept my thumb stuck in the open bottle between sips so I never had to worry about additives.
One night I was walking towards the ladies room carrying an empty bottle destined for the recycle can. A guy I'd been ignoring all evening grabbed my arm from behind, and it was pure instinct and training that made me swivel the bottle so I had it by the neck, and I spun around ready to crack his head open with it. The look on his face said he knew I could do it, too. I didn't play fight.
So much of what I'm saying is learn to protect yourself, mostly with your brain. Theoretically you might have a perfect right to walk into a biker bar buck naked and escape unscathed - but until we achieve a perfect world, it ain't gonna happen.
Meanwhile give a good man his due.
mercuryblues
(14,519 posts)comparing women to livestock is what? An endearing quality?
"Why did you go up to that room" implies that if the victim did not go to that room, they would not have been raped. By default it is blaming the victim because they went to that room.
I have no dout that he is a decent guy. But why should women have to adjust the way they talk about rape so they don't offend men? Why should men be able to define the terms that women are allowed to discuss rape? I find it interesting that when women try to explain that the language being used is not helpful and push back against it is considered snapping and extreme. I really was going for mocking.
Here read this thread to see why the women on this board get a little snappy and extreme.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021913276
redqueen
(115,096 posts)We shouldn't even have to explain why that is so fucked up.
Explaining it at all is a kindness. Explaining it kindly? Please.
We are so far past this kinda crap. Catch up or deal with the consequences. We've said it kindly, we've said it rudely. We've said it bluntly, we've said it obliquely. We've said it a million different ways decade after decade and still with this shit, from men and women.
I'm sick of the 'if you are this mean I can see why women don't want to be feminists' song and dance. People didn't want to label themselves as liberals not because liberals often employed an in-your-face style of communication. It was because of propaganda. It is the same with feminists.
mercuryblues
(14,519 posts)DU really needs a smilie of something flying right over someone's head.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)... that anyone is perfect. And that goes for you and me, too. Striking out blindly is self defeating; where's the power and liberation in that? I can understand your PAIN. I'm just advocating a more effective and focused response to it. Driving away potential sympathizers by demanding the perfection from them that you lack yourself does no one any favors. Even the most sympathetic person in the world will get mad and wash their hands of you and other hurting people when they get their face slapped hard and often for not toeing your line closely enough.
Just as I'm about to do. All sympathy considered, I need to manage my precious time more carefully, and the level of neurosis and vitriol expressed by some posters is about to leave me speechless. Stop shooting yourselves in the foot!
mercuryblues
(14,519 posts)supposed to treat every male as a rapist?
If I go to a party at a friend's house am I supposed to not drink anything except juice, watch my cup and suspect evey male there is a predator? Should a woman only sit in the corner with her herd and never socialize with anyone else? How about you try that yourself for a few months. Let me know how much fun it is to live that way.
I find it odd that no matter how a woman behaves she will get labeled. Stay within her social group, she is a prude, snob and so on.
Step 1 inch out of her social group and she should have known better and behaved differently. See the predictament women are in?
Women do take measures to protect themselves, you just are not aware of it. So instead of teaching women how not to get raped, how about we start by teaching our children what rape is? Some parents are already aware of this and do, yet rape stats are still apalling.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)... taking a holistic approach to the problem and address all avenues of correction? I hate to say this, but I hear a hint of unproductive male bashing in the room. Being aware of your surroundings is not at all the same as fearful huddling in a corner. Forget the extremes! They're not your friend!
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)Unfortunately us guys don't usually have the same view. Trying to avoid your assailant in the far more common case of; He is driving you home from a date when He decides no is not an option. Majority of times She knows her assailant. Thought there was some degree of trust. Being aware of your surroundings while at Lovers Lane? Or when he walks you to your door? Or sitting on his couch?
Stats from RAINN
4 in 10 take place at the victim's home.
Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
28% are an intimate.
7% are a relative.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)"Really well".
They have no clue how frequently it happens with the person you least suspect.
No clue at all.
niyad
(112,959 posts)why did YOU act the way YOU did? the reality is, no matter how careful women are, how much they circumscribe their lives because of the predators out there, they can STILL be raped. so asking why they did, or did not do, something, still puts the blame on them.
frankenfeinstein499
(12 posts)Yes. There should be absolutely no question about the woman's behaviour. If she didn't consent, then nothing else she does, says or wears can make it anything but rape- period. Why should this even be controversial?
niyad
(112,959 posts)you would be surprised.
frankenfeinstein499
(12 posts)seeing as my first comment on this board was a sort of mis-step in that direction (which I then apologised for when called on it), I can well understand... it's something I've read up on since the GOP misogynists took center stage last year. some things seem incredibly obvious once you "click on" but until someone does they're liable to spout the fallacies of the rape apologists without being conscious they're doing it. reading mainstream newspaper reports of rapes/SA there's always a few people turning up in the comments who'll say "I'm not blaming her... BUT she shouldn't have been out drinking so much" or equivalent. I suppose it's in a category with the "I'm not racist but..." lines.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)seems to be something that a few will fight very hard to maintain.
It's good to see so many men and women here fighting against those ideas which are indicative of rape culture, and not allowing this crap to go unchallenged.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)... because I advocate for the empowerment of women. And I'm not apologizing for any rapist or blaming their victim(s). That's one reason I never went into law enforcement, because I knew that if I had to arrest a rapist and had the chance, I might save the state the cost of a trial. Would my self discipline always be up to par? Maybe so, maybe not. That was ONE risk I didn't want to run.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)'Yes, we know. We get it. Be careful. We hear it all the time. How about we focus on the men now, please?'
To come into this thread, after reading this OP, and attempt to steer the conversation, once again, toward yet another round of 'but the women! they should x, y, and z!'... yeah. No. That simply demonstrates that someone is not listening.
frankenfeinstein499
(12 posts)As for IrishAyes "forget the extremes"- well redqueen, your site is certainly on the radfem side and I have no problem with "extreme" support for women's right to be free from sexual violence and a culture that minimises, excuses or victim-blames when it happens. In the same way I'm extreme about slavery and torture.
I don't think anyone is "hating men" here, we're just trying to make sure that women's rights are respected and sharply but politely rebuking any comments which may reflect an unprogressive view of women and sexual assault. There are already enough people chipping in with "how to not get raped" suggestions, as the OP implies. As successful or unsuccessful as they may be, they are not the same as telling men and boys "don't rape".
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Understand is playing a stupid game, a fool, or both.
They use any excuse to avoid discussing why we need differently aimed PSAs and education. Which is clearly the intent of the OP.
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)It is really that simple, there is no need for clarification, no need to second guess. Simple really, anything else is coercive and a violation.
greiner3
(5,214 posts)However, what about teaching the women how to DEFEND themselves if the man becomes too aggressive?
eggplant
(3,906 posts)Is it too much to ask for us to not live our lives in fear? To be able to assume that the person sitting next to us will respect us? Or do we have to constantly wonder and worry that they might attack us at any moment, for no reason at all?
People should be able to live their lives peacefully without HAVING to learn to defend themselves.
11 Bravo
(23,922 posts)My oldest son is 6' 1", weighs 190 lbs, is an NCAA athlete, and can bench press 275 lbs. When he's home from college and is heading out for the evening I tell him every single time, "Be smart and be careful." It is neither offered nor perceived as a slight.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)It's well established in the field of psychology that rape is not about sex. The whole "no means no" thing is meaningless since most rape is meant to control, dominate, hurt, and terrorize the woman. That is the motivation. It's an act of violence. 70% of rapes are planned in advance. That's why women are taught to try to not get raped. The point of it is to try to remove the opportunity that the rapist has planned.
In a perfect world, we could walk around and do anything we want without a care in the world and not have to worry about other people wanting to hurt us. The fact is that crime and violence are unfortunate realities of human society. There has never been a crime-free society in our history. The idea that we should not teach women to defend themselves or be aware of their surroundings is idiotic and foolish!
If I get robbed in the middle of the night, does it make it my fault that I got robbed because I forgot to lock the door? Of course not. The robber is the one that broke the law. However, if that door was locked, he might have went on to the next house or at least made it more difficult for him to get in. And that's why there is a lock on the door. Prevention. I take away the robber's opportunity by locking that door. And that's what you teach women with rape prevention and self-defense. You are taking away the rapist's opportunity.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)And the difference for women is: if someone manages to get through your lock, and robs your house, he will be convicted by the jury and sent to jail. Period.
You realize that burglars are quite skilled at picking locks, right? If one door is locked, they'll find a window that isn't properly secured, and they'll come into your house. And they're very good at silently moving through your house, taking what they want while you slumber upstairs in blissful sleep. You haven't taken away their opportunity, because burglars, like rapists, will get what they want despite your best efforts at prevention.
And when they're put on trial, the defense attorney won't argue that even though your door was locked, maybe you didn't really want to keep people out. I mean, he got in through the unlocked basement window, so you didn't try very hard to keep him out, did you? They won't argue that you have no business having expensive things in your home, providing an irresistible temptation to the burglar, will they? No, they won't argue those things, and a jury wouldn't consider them as mitigating circumstances. The burglar clearly committed a crime, and off to jail he'll go.
But a woman who has been raped gets second-guessed no matter what steps she may have taken to protect herself, and in far too many cases the jury uses her 'mistakes' to let the rapist off the hook. It really is different for women.
niyad
(112,959 posts)datasuspect
(26,591 posts)too stupid to master the art of lock picking.
they usually just kick in your door or come through an unlocked window.
that simple.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)What burglars actually do, 99 times out of a hundred, is find someplace easier to burgle.
Your courtroom scenario is also flawed due to cliche and simplicity. Does what you describe happen? Sure, more or less. Is it typical? No.
You've tried to take the poster you were responding to's analogy and reduce it to absurdity. But turning the discussion into a cartoon doesn't really help.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but when you are LOOKING for a flaw; one generally finds it.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(31,769 posts)MrModerate
(9,753 posts)MrModerate
(9,753 posts)Squinch
(50,897 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)burglars "actually do" move on; but only after exploring all possible entry points ... and put in more effort into gaining entrance, if there is something inside that the think they want.
And the courtroom scenario ... Have you ever prosecuted/defended a rape claim? What was described, the blaming the victim, comes right after attempts to argue that "it wasn't him" fail.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)Which is exactly what happened in the hands of the poster I criticized.
And I think we all know pretty much that an attorney's job is to try to get the client off, and great offenses to dignity happen in courtrooms. But that doesn't mean that the society (or even the attorney) believes that women are culpable in such circumstances.
And the prospect of sleazy tactics by an attorney is a really lousy reason to deemphasize situational awareness and self-defense instruction for women.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but some you have to work harder to make collapse ... in this case you have failed to collapse the analogy because first (and as I mentioned above) the burglar only moves on to the easier target when his/her efforts to gain access are frustrated. And secondly, the blaming the victim IS the defense to a rape claim ... both in the courtroom AND society.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)I still maintain that as an argument about women's culpability or nonculpability for crimes committed against them the analogy was very weak. Apparently you get 50 miles to the gallon on the notion. Sobeit.
I've already stipulated that attorneys use such techniques, but you've offered no evidence that society as a whole blames women who are assaulted. While you can no doubt come up with plenty of cases of people behaving badly, that doesn't make such behavior the norm. It's still a minority view no matter how depressingly common.
And I don't think it's that common. So prove me wrong.
niyad
(112,959 posts)want a share of whatever it is you are ingesting, because, clearly, your perceptions do not match reality, as the women, and even some of the men, on this thread are trying to tell you.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)I've lived in lots of places and among lots of types of people, and in my experience the notion that "society as a whole" — by which I mean something like "most people" — blames women who are raped is flatly untrue.
Unless you believe that acknowledging risky behavior (or for that matter, risk in general) is identical to assigning blame. At which point this whole conversation becomes somewhat pointless.
niyad
(112,959 posts)different people, and yes, society as a whole DOES continue to blame the woman. the people in this thread have been pointing this out to you, but you clearly do not wish to see it. look at those morans in the legislatures, debating about "legitimate rape" and saying that if a woman gets pregnant, it wasn't a real rape. they represent a whole lot of people. apparently, in your view, if even two people don't see it that way, it isn't "society as a whole".
I repeat, whatever you are ingesting, please share. on second thought, forget it, would not want to be that delusional.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)niyad
(112,959 posts)here is so trivial, correct?
"I've done all I can." what you have done is indicate that you have nothing but contempt for the facts, despite having them pointed out to you repeatedly. what goes on outside your non-observant little bubble simply does not exist for you. and your casual, "well, if that is what your neighborhood is like, just move", is the sort of thing we expect from the pukes.
denial is not a river in egypt.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)For exaggeration that leads to bad policy, and which leads to people (women, specifically) getting hurt.
niyad
(112,959 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)(in my eyes) and I can plainly see that "society as a whole" does blame the victim the majority of the time.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts).... men who don't know you address you as "honey"? So why is he "sweetie"? Let's be consistent, okay?
niyad
(112,959 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Ask any Defense Attorney to describe his/her ideal jury before which to defend a rape charge. It was my job to gauge/know public sentiment when picking juries. Juries reflect society.
There is a reason defense attorneys blame the victim in rape charges ... because it works. From my experience, society is far more accommodating to blaming the victim than you know.
Warpy
(111,106 posts)for the fact that placing all the restrictions on women's lives has not worked to stop rape.
Ball's in your court, guys. You need to start educating your brothers that they're not mighty hunters and women are not their prey.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)And I'm pretty sure he has taken on my lessons and integrated them into the type of person he is.
But does that mean he'll never drink too much -- and I harp on this because alcohol is such a significant factor in acquaintance rape -- drink too much so that in an intoxicated and horny state he misbelieves he's been encouraged to go further than a woman wants to go? I certainly hope he won't. But should he do so, I want the woman to be trained and confident enough to knee him in the balls so a worse offense than pestering doesn't occur.
Train your sons by all means; but continue training your daughters.
Doc Holliday
(719 posts)"Train your sons by all means; but continue training your daughters."
Although it should be noted that if a woman knees or kicks a man in the groin, she'd better get the hell out of there IMMEDIATELY or kill him.... because the violence just went to Level 3. Daughters need to be taught that a knee to the groin is not a magic wand.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)Should certainly be part of the syllabus.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Back in the day, when I practiced, I came into contact with some extremely determined burglars that could find their way into anything/place ... with some taking the position the more challenging the entrance, the greater the reward. Sure ... there are those drug addicts that will move on quickly, but those are crimes of opportunity from the start; the vast majority of burglars go into specific places, to get specific things and do not let a locked door stop them long.
And regarding the treatment of the rape victim in court ... spot on. During those years, we used to joke, "rape charge? Give me a jury of 8 women, 2 frat-boys and 2 marines ... the women won't believe the victim was 'really raped', the frat-boys will think her cries of 'No', really mean, 'try harder' and it'll take broken limbs to convince the marines."
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)Would you not use locks yourself?
The lock does something to prevent it. As flawed as the deterrent is, you know it does.
However, if I leave my door unlocked one night and my place gets burglarized, nobody should ever say that I was responsible for the burglar's criminal act.
I don't see what's wrong with both advising women on safety and advising/urging men not to rape. I don't see where taking safety measures implies that your responsibility for a crime against you. If this is communicated to women regarding rape, the solution is to scoff at that message as ridiculous, and still urge that they take any and all measures to stop rape.
The main problem with the message, however, is that most rapes are not done by random attackers in the dark. Most are done by men the woman knows. So, any measure you take to discourage those criminals are not going to apply to the vast majority of rapes attempted/committed.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I make sure the doors and windows to my house is locked every night and whenever I leave; but I do so knowing that if someone wants to break in they will.
But the point of this sub-threat is the disparity in treatment of a buglary versus rape ... it is the rare case where the victim of a burglary is blamed for being the victim of the crime, whatever precautions they take, or don't take; whereas, it is commonplace to blame the victim of rape, for not taking the proper precautions, or even inviting the crime.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)My brother was a marine. You overreach, sir.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)lawyerly banter and not intended as an indictment of any particular person serving in the Marine Corp. But with that said, the current state/culture of the military (and the sexual assaults of women ... particularly, women in the Marines) suggests that the banter was not far off. http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/mobile/news/2013/02/military-sexual-assault-senate-hearing-022813w
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)It paints a large segment of society with a broad tar brush, which should be unthinkable to an evolved liberal. Even if HALF a group is bad, that doesn't make the other half necessarily bad to any degree.
Instead of careless and unjust banter, how about some thoughtful discretion and give JUSTICE where justice is due. Do you like it when white racists slander all blacks? I seriously doubt you do, regardless of the fact that not everyone has President Obama's ethics. Neither do I appreciate your sadly inadequate 'careless lawyerly banter' against a group of which my brother was a sterling member and with whom he sacrificed his own life so you and I and the rest of us can carry on our 'careless banter', no matter how 'lawyerly' it might be.
Quite frankly, if I ever need a lawyer, I hope she/he will not suffer your particular biases.
More than likely you're a perfectly nice man, but everyone needs checking once in a while; so consider your knuckles rapped, please. At least I'm not trying to pee on your leg and pass it off as rain. Or banter of any kind.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(31,769 posts)Reading the bantering between a few folks here and I kept waiting for one of my favorite women to point out the obvious - but you got to it first.
MrModerate I believe is telling folks to be careful.
What happens if it is your husband?
Your soon to be ex husband?
Your brother's friend?
A family member?
Your teacher?
What if it is someone a woman knows? Do we need locks on our vaginas? Is that it? What if we do that? And they hold a gun to our heads until we give the criminal the key?
Did we not practice due diligience?
Criminals with criminal minds do not care about their victims due diligence. Criminals whose crime is rape only care about power and control. More power to them "IN their MINDS" if they circumvent the safety measures.
ZOB
(151 posts)Something as simple as an alarm sticker on a window (whether or not an alarm system is installed) is usually enough to make them move on. There are always plenty of easy targets...why even risk a possible bad outcome?
The analogy doesn't hold water.
I wholly agree that "avoiding being rape-able" should never be the standard. However, I do believe that (in the same way that locking one's doors is a good common-sense practice) certain awareness behaviors are good things to teach.
Threedifferentones
(1,070 posts)When was the last time you knew someone who gave away their plasma TV, lap top and jewelry in the middle of the night?
So the analogy is not that strong, because while those rape defenses may rely on our culture of "slut shaming" for many of their nasty details, the basis of the "it was actually consensual" defense is legal and logical.
While I will readily admit that the vast majority of rapists never get charged, and that the vast majority charged are guilty, there still are false accusations of rape and due process requires a court to consider that.
kdmorris
(5,649 posts)to first determine if a woman "deserved" it.
"why were your there?", "what were you wearing?", "had you been drinking?" are all typical questions asked during rape trials. That's how defense attorneys try to get "reasonable doubt" introduced.
RILib
(862 posts)Exactly right.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)No other crime victim is treated this way. It is because of the patriarchy that we are considered as being in a perpetual state of 'yes', and have to go to extraordinariy lengths to prove we said no.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)so therefore the person who committed the crime must be set free. Under NO OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES is this true. But yet, they still argue. Sigh.
No one denies that women should learn self-defense, and situational awareness, and etc. But let the guard slip once, for even one instant, and there you go, little lady - you shouldn't have screwed up. It's your own damn fault.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)Yep. And I'm tired of that red herring being conflated with the victim blaming.
boston bean
(36,217 posts)every single situation. Just taking a walk for example. Going for a run. Walking in a parking garage. Taking transit late at night.
It goes on and on...
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)Which is what made it so silly.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)I've lived in about 50 cities in my lifetime and I have — literally — never encountered such a point of view except from a tiny minority of jugheads.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)MrModerate
(9,753 posts)And I'd be happy to enter into a discussion about how victims can be protected from the adversarial process inherent in trials.
But saying that because defense attorneys use "blame the victim" arguments, that means that society considers women to be at fault if they are raped is a misstatement.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)really overturns the mountains of empirical proof we have amassed.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)Lots of passion but no data. So I'll stack my anecdotes against boiling resentment any time.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)especially when it boils down to "The world around you" but here is a nice page that breaks it down nicely with pictures, and references.
http://www.rainn.org/statistics
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)They have no relationship to the argument made here by the OP and others who have been hectoring me for my insensitivity: that an emphasis on training women how to be less vulnerable to rape is synonymous with blaming them when rapes occur. And that such training has little value anyway. And consequently we should stop (or deemphasize) such training in favor of teaching men not to rape.
Responders to my posts have also been tossing out tidbits like "society as a whole blames women when they're raped," an opinion apparently based on the fact that, because our justice system allows defense attorneys great leeway to discredit witnesses in defense of their clients, that means that "most people" think it's women's fault when they are assaulted.
All of which is contrafactual, based primarily — it seems — on a sense of outrage, and guaranteed to result in bad policy if taken at face value.
And which, incidentally, is completely unsupported by anything even remotely resembling empirical evidence throughout this thread.
My point, which I've put forth consistently, is that both sorts of campaigns are necessary: tactics and strategies that women can adopt to reduce their vulnerability to criminal acts, and a greater emphasis (primarily on young men) that it's never OK to force unwelcome intimacies on another person.
I also have thrown in the fact that alcohol is the great stupefier and a significant contributor to acquaintance rape, because it leads to situations where both parties are incapable of acting sensibly. Which does not relieve anyone of guilt for crimes committed while intoxicated, but is a significant risk that people (primarily women) shouldn't overlook as part of an overall program of protecting themselves.
So. Got any evidence that my actual proposition (as opposed to whatever you imagined my proposition to be) is off the mark? Because I don't think so.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)I think we can agree here. so when you say things like:
"I also have thrown in the fact that alcohol is the great stupefier and a significant contributor to acquaintance rape, because it leads to situations where both parties are incapable of acting sensibly. Which does not relieve anyone of guilt for crimes committed while intoxicated, but is a significant risk that people (primarily women) shouldn't overlook as part of an overall program of protecting themselves. "
It is confusing the issue, and blaming the woman for trying to relax and enjoy life. Unless you teach women to never be alone with a man, not their friends, not their boyfriend, not their husband, not their uncle, not their grandfather, not their brothers, not their father, then you aren't informing her of all the situations that can happen.
A lot of the objections to the OP tend to pass over this line:
"Telling women that they can behave in a certain way to avoid rape creates a false sense of security and it isn’t the most effective way to lower the horrible statistics which show that 1 in 5 women will become victims of a completed or attempted rape in their lifetime."
If we focus on teaching defense and prevention to women only, like has been done basically all through out history and still doesn't work, then the obvious conclusion is that she did something wrong. Sure, everybody knows it's wrong, and nobody you talk to would do it, but it happens, and you just looked at a site with "harrowing" statistics so obviously people are doing it, and quite a lot. A majority of the time as much blame gets put on the victim, or even the majority does. In court cases the girl is put on trial, the rape kits are very invasive, they get their character completely to shreds, and they often don't even want to take it to trial because they can't even be in the same room with the guy.
Think about it, you've even said yourself that there is nothing wrong with asking "Why did she go out alone?" which leads to "didn't she know she could have gotten raped?" well yea, she probably did, all the women I've talked to about the subject know that the very act of leaving the house could result in being raped. No matter what precautions they take the possibility is there. In fact I just found out that a friend of mine had her house broken into and, well you can guess, given the context.
The point that the OP is making is that teaching precaution DOESN'T WORK, it never has and, I'm not psychic, but I'll put money that it never will work to reduce it happening. Getting the message out that rape is wrong, if she can't say yes, then it's rape, and drill it into everyone's head that it is a crime, and we need to make it a society thing to not allow it from age 3 when Timmy pulls on Sally's hair, it's not "Oh, how cute he likes her" it's assault, and treating it as anything but sends that little boy the message that it's ok to treat girls like that (not saying he should be charged with a crime, saying he should be taught then and there) nothing will change.
I don't know if I satisfied your questions, but there's a lot of info to get out, and it's hard to splice it up.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)And here's why:
“It is confusing the issue, and blaming the woman for trying to relax and enjoy life. Unless you teach women to never be alone with a man, not their friends, not their boyfriend, not their husband, not their uncle, not their grandfather, not their brothers, not their father, then you aren't informing her of all the situations that can happen.”
Not so. And this is where the OP and supporters immediately go off the rails: pointing out that a person is more vulnerable when intoxicated is not, not, not blaming that person if a crime is committed against them. For some reason, the OP seems convinced that admitting that risk increases with intoxication is an offer of a get-out-of-jail-free card to rapists.
Which is nonsense. A crime’s a crime.
And failing to teach young people steps they can take to increase their safety is both cruel and foolish. And yet, that is what the OP suggests.
The OP also dismisses self-defense training because it has failed to eliminate rape. Using the same logic, seat belts have failed to eliminate death in auto accidents, so should we abandon them for that reason?
“If we focus on teaching defense and prevention to women only, like has been done basically all throughout history and still doesn't work, then the obvious conclusion is that she did something wrong.”
Not so. That conclusion is not at all obvious, and has no logical or emotional basis. Also, defense and prevention are far from the only things being taught. Young men are routinely taught that “no means no,” at least in the families that I come in contact with (I'm going anecdotal again). You can (should) argue that such teaching is not universal or effective enough, but to suggest it isn't taking place is flatly untrue.
“The point that the OP is making is that teaching precaution DOESN'T WORK, it never has and, I'm not psychic, but I'll put money that it never will work to reduce it happening.”
And that is flatly wrong. Precaution does work – just not every time. Ask any woman about the times when she has felt uneasy or felt that something was getting out of control and so took precautionary steps and prevented a potential assault. A lot more than 1 in 5 will be able to answer yes to that question. I've had such conversations.
And as for anti-rape messaging? I'm all for it. I just think it's already taking place. I know I've taught my son about respect for all persons in general, and women in specific. That's how the people I know are raising their sons. Can we do more, much more? Of course. Should we reduce self-defense/situational awareness training for women because of a greater emphasis on preventing men from raping? Of course not.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Except the OP perhaps. That's exactly what it says.
I will never understand how people can read a collection of words and come away with an understanding 180° out of synch OF WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID, and recommend it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)particularly in the matter of rape ...
Whereas, men blame the victim to shift the blame/responsibility from themselves; while Women blame the victim for peace of mind ... "If she had just been better prepared/fought harder/not worn that slutty skirt, she wouldn't have been raped" That way they can convince themselves it won't happen to them because they would never act like that.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)that human nature is too often fear-reactive. But two wrongs don't make one right, either.
Frankly, I don't give a tinker's damn what anyone thinks or will think later when my personal safety is on the line. But then I wasn't raised with a victim mindset either. I can't help believing it has stood me in good stead. I want my sisters to taste that same freedom, and unfortunately it doesn't come easily. Innocence in and of itself offers little comfort however much it should. Let me be the change I want to see in the world.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)thank you.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)"...burglars, like rapists, will get what they want despite your best efforts at prevention."???
That's a defeatist attitude, enfeebling to women or anyone else. Yes it IS different for women, but that truth only makes it more urgent for us to mount a broadly based attack on the problem. No, we can't win 'em all - but we can improve our chances and charge dearly for any square inch of ground.
Sheesh! If I'm all that deluded, why and how did I reach 68 in perfect health after an adventurous and full life, pray tell? It's more than luck of the Irish. A lot more.
niyad
(112,959 posts)do not have a RIGHT to exercise control, dominance, and infliction of pain and terror? you know, the whole patriarchal, male dominance, woman-is-lesser thing?
and, however smart it is to learn self-defense (and just what level do you mea? black belt martial arts, or just SING?) etc., it still seems to put the onus on the woman, not the man intent on rape.
Do YOU think that is what anyone here says or thinks?
niyad
(112,959 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I think we teach men that rape is wrong by virtue of a long history of punishing it as a felony. There's no such thing as misdemeanor rape.
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)Our society has always taught that, the problem is that society constantly fails in its definition of what is rape.
Obvious stranger in the dark, is accepted, but what about the situations not so clear?
I remember as a teen seeing John Wayne grabbing Maureen O'Hare or Harrison Ford hold the door shut on Sean Young, feeling uncomfortable, and confused, how did they know?.. Well obviously, "women want it", and we "strong men" just need to see through the "games" they are playing.. you know the "hard to get" gambit, it's bullshit.
I luckily had parents that pointed out that was bullshit. I was raised with the idea that only a clear "yes" was permission. Sadly that was because my father had seen two of his sisters go through it.
Young boys and men need to learn, girls are not objects, or targets. That sexuality is not a game or a sport. And that any form of abuse is flat fucking wrong, and any excuse is enabling.
Mixed signals is a bullshit argument, and is a lame attempt to shift the blame, and is a sexist and paternalistic meme that needs to be demolished, it is based on the idea that women don't know what they want, or are flighty or addle brained. If you are receiving "mixed signals", its an easy fix, stop.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)That stuff is confusing for women, too.
I used to see that scene in Blade Runner as romantic. I think many women tolerate abuse and maltreatment because rape and the domination of women are romanticized. Sexual harassment, and abuse which doesn't result in bruises, blood, and broken bones, are treated as not being that big of a deal. Demeaning language is hardly even noticed. Laughed off. Accepted as normal.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)I never said we can't try to teach boys that rape is wrong. But the problem is that will only effect a small number of sexual assault cases. The majority of rapists have been abused themselves. If that parenting is that bad, you really think messages of respecting women is going to ever get taught to that future potential rapist?
We got a lot of bad parents in this country. A lot of people have no business being parents in my opinion. A lot of them teach racism, sexism, and hatred. Many are victims of abuse or witness abuse. Many witness violence in their neighborhood. These experiences early in life have the potential to cause psychological problems throughout his life. And your plan is to no longer teach prevention to women and instead attempt this strategy of trying to get through to those young boys? Good luck with that.
Parenting and violence need to improve before your strategy could have any chance of success. No longer teaching rape prevention to women will leave women in dangerous situations. If I ever have a daughter, I will make sure she knows how to protect herself. I will make sure she learns self defense moves. I will make sure she learns survival techniques and yes...even how to shoot a gun (when she's old enough). Why? Because I know there are sinister people in this world. One out of 8 women are raped. That is a significant probability. If she ever finds herself in such a situation, I want to make sure she knows what to do that will give her a chance to survive. It could save her life. Would it be nice if I didn't have to go through all that. Absolutely! But we don't live in a sane world. That's pretty fucking clear as day.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)B.S. A woman isn't a man's property.
I get sick of the mentality like yours.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)What the hell kind of twisted logic is that?
Squinch
(50,897 posts)
NutmegYankee
(16,197 posts)I rarely lock my doors at night, and if I do it's usually because of high winds. No one is going to creep in and rob you in your sleep. If they could do that with my ancient creaky wood floors and loud opening doors, I'd actually be quite impressed. A burglar is going to wait to hit your place when you are NOT home. They don't want to get attacked by the homeowner. So you lock your doors when you leave.
And unlike some Urban areas, the countryside is literally Russian Roulette for a thief. I find it hard to believe they will take such a substantial risk when people are home.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)a little old lady out in a rural area needs some handy-man level work done on her home. She hires the guy a few doors down who she thinks she knows well enough, but in actuality doesn't. He comes by, does the various projects in her house and while there, figures out where things are kept. Decides that she is easy pickings, being she's a little old lady. Comes back with one of his boys one night to clean her out of her goods. His friend decides that on top of cleaning her out, rape wouldn't be a half bad idea and he rapes and subsequently kills her. Decides to burn the house down with her in it to cover their tracks.
There have been way too many of these types of cases for anyone to believe that "creaky floors" are a deterrent to someone bent on robbing the place or worse.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)It is BULLSHIT to claim anything else.
Women have every bit as much right as men to go where they want, when they want, as men.
Women should not have to be paranoid because they are "alone" and have to have a man around to protect them.
prole_for_peace
(2,064 posts)That is usually my argument when hearing the "she shouldn't have been there/done that/had a drink"
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)I'm all of 5 feet tall and have been told more than once that I look very approachable and unthreatening. But I've never been afraid to live alone in the outback on a horse ranch when I had one, or moving through every level of society. I'm the one people - strangers w/o a political bone to pick, anyway! - seem to turn to for help when they need it. Unfortunately finances virtually dictated where I retired, and half these clowns are xenophobic as geese. But I was brought up in what I call a male-rich environment, and they didn't raise me to be fearful either, as you might gather if you've seen my other posts.
I wish some of these folks could see the value of addressing personal safety issues in a more comprehensive manner. Educate the society AND learn to kick the bloody hell out of a violator if need be. A one-sided imaginary solution is self defeating and worse than useless because it binds and blinds.
BTW, for all my huffing and puffing, nobody needs to think I would dream of living alone w/o a watchdog either. And I always poison-trained them. They were always perfect model canine citizens, and when anyone asked "Do they bite?", I'd say "They're as polite as the people they meet."
Yes, it's downright surreal to find myself sticking up for so many men on this thread! But I know reality's our friend, wishful thinking a sinkhole.
michigandem58
(1,044 posts)of a PSA you find offensive?
niyad
(112,959 posts)BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Respect for others.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that language alone is the wrong. you cannot teach women to be "safe". they are safely sleeping in their bed and someone breaks in. they follow all the rules going on a date and is still raped. they carry the keys in hand with one jutted out between, in a lit area, down the middle of street opposed to sidewalk, fast pace, head up and are still raped.
the point is.... the illusion of "be safe". then somehow she did something wrong along the way to not keep herself "safe".
that being said, i am all for giving my girls information that may help them along the way.
also, that being said, i have read enough posts on du to know, some men do not even know that some actions are rape. so ya, teaching our boys what rape is has to be a part of the whole.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)the purposeful myopia around here is astonishing....
Texasgal
(17,037 posts)wearing that short skirt. Right?
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)We talk about some of the Middle East countries and how women's movements are restricted, but how is this any damned different?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i had two older women tell me i should not be out after dark by myself. was a huge WTF. i am not gonna stay hidden in home to avoid the dark. i will take precautions, but that is the best i can do.
on the other hand, a month or two ago a judge ruled that a woman at a concert should have expected being sexually assaulted, being in the environment.
so that attitude is not gone, for sure. still in our legal system.
Response to Bonobo (Reply #9)
Post removed
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Bad post 
Dash87
(3,220 posts)And by this, I don't mean your post but the attitude in general of "women are responsible for their safety" is that most of situations where rape happens are just everyday situations. For example, getting drunk at a party, being in a room with a male, or even sleeping with someone but wanting to stop. Random attacks are a smaller % of all rapes.
So, what does a woman do? In these situations, apparently nothing could be done.
So, would it not make more sense to encourage males not to rape? They are the ones that do it in the first place (yes, there are female rapists, but it's irrelevant to this post). How does one avoid situations that constitute every day life?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)He was jumped and beaten suddenly in an everyday place.
Not much he could do, that's true. After all, city streets, from behind.
But awareness, holding keys in hand as a weapon, learning to punch would be useful skills.
Same general idea. Telling street punks not to jump people would be a waste of time.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)fucking an unconscious woman or since some women have said no when they really mean yes... doesnt that mean they WANT to be raped .... or a woman fantasizes about rape so women really want to be raped.
those would be the boys and men that need to be addressed. not the punk ass street kid that is going to grab a stranger and rape them.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But I will not rely on this change in consciousness to protect my daughter from being taken advantage of and if I teach her not to be in a position where she is vulnerable, she would never make the mistake of thinking I was blaming the victim.
The street punks in this analogy ARE the people who get a woman drunk and rape them. Telling them not to do so will affect only a small portion of them.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)if this is what you are teaching your daughter, then yes, you are making her vulnerable and creating a falsehood, doing her a disservice. for sure.
i will state again, i am all for teaching kids tips that may help them. but, i will not allow them to be under the illusions these "tips" will make then not vulnerable. that is bullshit. your daughter merely getting in a car and going on a date with a man MAKES her vulnerable.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)Sexual violence and getting jumped on the street can't even be compared. Also, most rapes are not random stranger rapes. You can't fight someone off if you're passed out, or are in a position where you cannot defend yourself.
It's male entitlement that we should be addressing, not admitting defeat and acting as if it's something we all just have to live with.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)When the vast majority of rapes are from acquaintances or family?
Never be alone with anyone- even family?
Lots of rapists pretend they "didn't know" , when asked their friends say "they weren't sure"and their defense attorneys muddy the waters trying to imply consent occurred.
Why in the world would clarifying the situation, so everyone in the social group
are completely clear on what rape is- be a bad thing? Studies show young people - both men and women- have a lot of messed up ideas on rape. There's a fog that sets in and acquaintance rapists take advantage of the situation.
It's not about getting the message to one guy and stopping him because he saw it- it's about raising awareness so he has less opportunity to operate in that fog. Removing his plausible deniability.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)and the reaction by a large group of men here was astonishing. The umbrage that was displayed was remarkable. I think the essence is pretty simple: don't rape women. Just don't. And if you're not raping women, this doesn't apply to you.
niyad
(112,959 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Many people here have daughters. Do you suggest that we can make them safe by, instead of telling them that it is dangerous to walk alone at night, sending out the message more clearly on FB and message boards, for example, that "Men shouldn't rape"?
It is simply bad advice to say that we should not tell women AND MEN how to remain safe AND how to respect each other.
That is not umbrage, anger, outrage or anything other than a recognition of bad advice given out of frustration to make a point.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)Never go on a date? Never be alone with a man you're dating, and if you get married, never be alone with your husband, and never be alone with her grandpa or her uncle?
The uncomfortable truth about the best ways to avoid rape are SO uncomfortable that we don't teach that even when we pretend we are teaching women how to avoid being raped.
It's like teaching a teen to smoke cigarettes without harming their health by telling them to be careful not to put the burning end in their mouth.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)the victim knows, or family members...)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I am 13 or 14 hours time difference from you and I was at a day long training session on putting out forest fires (I am a volunteer fireman).
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Is it your position then that going on a date with someone you know is as dangerous as going to a party alone and drinking until you can hardly walk?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)out of a half dozen times I can think of off the top of my head, all but one were people I already knew- and we were socializing with mutual friends.
and in half the cases friends and family didn't believe me, because they knew the person too. the other half- I knew I might as well keep my mouth shut. i learned that when you win the wrestling match, no one thinks it's a big deal.
contrast that with slagging home at all hours in clubs and wild parties and having no trouble at all. not once.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)As you said, most rapes are committed by people the rape victim knows.
--For those cases, there are things I feel I can teach my daughter that will minimize the risk (but not remove it entirely). For example, make sure you know the person VERY WELL before you are ever in a one-on-one situation alone, etc. Furthermore, if she knows to punch or kick or twist soft body parts unflinchingly and mercilessly, she has a much better chance of "winning the wrestling match" as you put it --although I wouldn't call it a "wrestling match" ever. I would call it attempted assault.
In the case of rape attempts where it is done at a party/bar or jumping someone in the dark, there are also things that can be taught to increase the chance of avoiding becoming a victim. Self-defense tactics are not just physical punches and kicks, but awareness of where one is at all time and vigilance.
Teaching my daughter the above things is in NO WAY potentially blaming her. Neither is teaching such things to any other woman.
Preaching that we should give up on teaching women to avoid becoming rape victims is seriously crazy and seems to be suggested here as a way of making a larger point (one that I agree with --namely that men should learn what the true boundaries are).
But must we become so over-the-top with our rhetoric that we say "Stop telling women how not to become a victim"?
Can reason and common sense just be what we promote?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)should be. right now, when you look out at the messages around rape they are geared to getting women to prevent it, and that's it. (and it's commonly know stuff- half of which doesn't work). as far as raising awareness- guys here get angry over even raising the issue. you've seen it. yet there is a lot of ignorance and there do exist social circles where rape is tolerated. high school and college kids not even knowing what rape is) boundaries and unacceptable behavior need to be clearly identified as such to clear the fog- and society (campus cops, etc) need to actually stop sweeping shit under the rug for any real change to occur. but the messages we get now are half useless and half insulting.
good luck with your daughter waiting to know the guy really well- because you don't ever know how different someone is going to be when you're all alone. she will be exposed to the same risks we all were. maybe she'll be cynical, maybe she'll be blinded by infatuation. common sense often does't enter into it when you're young.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Messages about consent, date rape, respect need to be put out there more. I totally agree.
I do not agree that men get angry when the issue is raised. Try starting an OP that says that "Men shouldn't take advantage of drunk women" and you will see that no one disagrees.
On the other hand, try starting an OP that says "All men are potential rapists" and you will see a lot of kickback.
Truly, as you have seen, the assholes out there that do these things do NOT consider what they are doing rape when they are doing it and so a message saying that all men are potential rapists to an audience like DU is inflammatory with little actual effect.
The assholes we are talking about are (mostly) dumb young people and it would be more effective, in my opinion, to appeal to the better sides of their nature (i.e. "Be a hero/gentleman, don't take advantage"
rather than just saying "No mean no" (Too similar to the ineffective "Just say no"?)
If we are talking about being effective in raising consciousness and improving behavior, the WAY a message is said is more important than scoring points.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)(according to them) and they get insulted when asked for anything more than not being rapists themselves. how often do *some* guys let their friends cull someone (who can barely talk or stand) from the herd and ignore it, or worse, cheer them on? way too often. even if part of them knows exactly what it is. and there are a dozen similar scenarios creepy enough to raise friends' concern - but people often do not step in. men and women.
i don't think there's a pleasant way to ask people to not look the other way, is there? because it infers the awful truth that too many of us do. it's not easy to speak out, better to criticize the woman for being a dumb girl who put herself in danger. i know i have seen lots of that here.
and the singular message we get reinforces the notion of "putting yourself" someplace is bad. we should be vigilant and limit our experiences when young. you know how well that goes over? not too well for many of us. (which is another reason we hate those mostly useless tips)
because we learn soon enough, it could be most anywhere, anytime, and anyone. sure, some people set off radars and you might have successfully avoided some nightmares, but the majority just do not. some people will abuse your trust at first opportunity. sometimes you're having a great time with someone and suddenly it's not. it's down to dumb fucking luck, or having a minder 24/7. if you don't have luck, you need a good burst of adrenaline and a very quick knee.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)But few fathers will teach their daughters "Never be alone with your father"
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Fortunately that is a miniscule percentage of fathers.
tavalon
(27,985 posts)I hope he's warming the fire by the devil himself. It's the only place that POS deserves besides the years behind bars that he never got.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... that was reason I clicked with trepidation. I did not want to read through a thread placing all the responsibility on the victim of a crime ... or worse yet, debating whether the crime actually occurred.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that, until it happens or does not happen, we do not know if a man is a rapist. so, we have to follow a list of behaviors to "keep ourselves safe" from rape.
men were so pissed that we would dare to have trepidation walking out into a dark parking lot. how dare we have the attitude that some man would rape us. dontcha know the insult to that man, that has NO desire to rape us, and how unfair that any woman would behave in a manner that assumed he might rape.
the very next thread we walk into is men pissed that we are saying teach men not to rape, not instruction how to avoid rape. how DARE we not learn how to avoid being raped. it is our responsibility.
the very same people were arguing two opposites.
adn we are suppose to figure this out?
it bottom lined to.... rape or not being raped is all the womans responsibility.
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)As a male myself I truly believe men should be taught to recognize behaviors in other males and should be taught we should call them out
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)men listen to men. not women so much. but then, i am a believer of that type of thinking. on womens issues i believe i have a responsibility to speak out to women. on a christian issue, i believe christians have to challenge other christians. ect...
those within a group of a stronger, louder voice and are the one that holds the peer pressure ability. not those speaking otuside of the group.
i teach boys. they get it so easily. but, i do tell them, if they stay quiet, they are not a real help. they may not be abusing, raping, ect... and good on them, lol, but they are not really helping either.
it is their voice that needs to be heard by their brothers, friends, team mates.
thank you.
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)I know I was a football player in high school and a year in college and guys are taught don't speak out. That's why it needs to be taught if your not speaking up your just as guilty as the person who does it. If guys are taught to see the signs and to speak up alot of this will drop off.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)constantly, lol. we are good at it.
and yes, boys are talk very young that is tabboo in their peer groups. that is why i ahve addressed it for so long. not to mention, inherently i am a person that feels a responsibility to speak out for so many reasons. justice. fairness. rightness. but also, because it is a gift to another. to always know where i stand, what i think and they do not have to struggle to try and figure it out. just respectful.
my boys have learned to speak out at a young age. always respectfully.
always with understanding.
they live in a very red area. a fundamentalist area. both differing views from ours. and i constantly told them, they had an obligation to express their views. they had to be informed. listen. and speak out.
it has helped the boys to have the courage to do it in a peer setting of fellow males.
my oldest does it very well. and he is well respected and trusted by his friends.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)go at it hoss.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Much like it's important to single out men because they represent most but not all sex offenders.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i see the majority of white males committing terrorism by taking a gun into an elementary school, killing 20 children and 6 adults.
for you to actually sit here and in this post, in this thread, use this logic calling women out for the "safety tips" that others are also demanding all women learn to keep themselves safe, is the perfect example of what i am talking about.
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)As a male we have to accept that a majority of rape is committed by men. It is our responsibility to a certain degree to speak out and police ourselves to help protect the greater population both male (yes because men rape other men) and female. Only than can we truly see a true drop in sexuality violence numbers
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Do you really think anyone reading this teaches their male children that rape is not wrong? Or never mentions during their upbringing that rape is wrong?
You no longer want rape prevention education for young women? Fine. Ignore the ads and public service announcements you find SO OFFENSIVE. I will continue to educate my daughter about taking personal responsibility for her own actions and how to avoid situations when getting raped is most likely.
I will also continue to tell my sons that rape is wrong. But, they aren't rapists, so it's a FUCKING WASTE OF TIME.
Blame men. Blame all men. BLAME ALL MEN!!! Maybe you can start your own PSA campaign that blames every man alive for every rape ever committed. Would that make you feel better? Go for it. I promise you that I will not spend every waking moment posting threads at DU how much I hate your ads.
yodermon
(6,143 posts)Squinch
(50,897 posts)Clearly there is a lot more work to do in that direction.
This is not about blaming all men. If you're tired of it, don't read it.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Or, are they aware they are committing a crime but do it anyway?
That's why this is so damned annoying.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)Nor is the issue whether I think that criminals are ignorant of the law.
Stunningly, in this day and age, there are still some people who think that the definition of rape is not entirely clear in all situations.
Even here on DU, there are those who dispute whether "no" actually means "no." There are posters on DU who are not certain if they raped when they had sex with an unconscious woman.
So far, all prevention has aimed at changing the victim's behavior. It is time to work on making it clear to rapists that the definition of rape IS in fact clear in all situations.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)and go to the last paragraph of the OP:
Rapists come in two flavors 1) violent criminals who don't give a shit what a woman looks like and b) rapists of opportunity, the "date rape" types. Sure, there are others, but those are the ones being targeted by the OP. So, all the ads in the world and all the finger wagging about "no means no" won't do one thing to keep a violent criminal from being a violent criminal. And, maybe, a huge ad campaign on ESPN and during NFL games telling men to respect women might keep them from becoming rapists of opportunity. Who's to say.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)your post seems to agree with the OP. You seem to be saying that there is a possibility that if we devote the same energy to educating men about what constitutes rape as we do to women to "stay safe," there might be a reduction in rape.
Date rapes are often just as violent as those perpetrated by what you term as "violent criminals." Women who are raped probably don't categorize the way you do. They just know they were raped. Reducing rapes, whichever of your categories they fall into, is a good thing.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)That should be really clear.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)might reduce the incidence of rape.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)So why the inappropriately angry response to calls for these PSAs?
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)Kinda bullshit.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)tavalon
(27,985 posts)Totally.
I didn't save that wonderful PSA directed toward rapists, potential rapist and bystanders. I will keep it the next time it shows up. I think it needs to show up a lot.
I would probably lose any court case where I might be a person who had been raped. I have little, nay, zero tolerance for discussing the particulars of what I should or should not have done. I know you only met me once, but those who've known me for a while, know that I don't tolerate foolishness with much aplomb or any, really.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)and their sons still rape...
so all that whining is about what, exactly? Making yourself the center of attention?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)The problem is NOT educating young boys not to rape, any more than the problem with murderers is that their parents forgot to tell them that murder wrong.
I am totally in favor of telling every young man over and over again that "No means no" and sex after "no" probably is rape. That's great.
But bellyaching about PSAs telling girls about being safe? Please.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)get out of the spotlight, s0n.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)The problem illustrated in the OP is supposedly that somebody forgot to tell the rapists that a) women don't like being the victim of violent crimes and b) rape is a crime.
Well, here's the news! Every rapists knows it's a crime. Every goddamn one of them. But, they rape anyway.
So, the OP is totally full of shit, and hearing that totally wrong lament being rung over and over is really fucking annoying.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)or dont' read threads about it... but it's going to keep being brought up whether you like it or not. No one really cares that it's annoying to you.
the OP is not full of shit. They have a valid point which does not require your approval for said validity.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)If you don't want these kinds of threads getting blow back for being poorly focused and overly generalized, then these threads should NEVER show up in General Discussion. After the third or fourth of these threads in GD, I get sick enough of them to repsond, and that won't change.
You want a nice, quiet discussion where everyone agrees, then put this bullshit in a more exclusive forum.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)getting blowback for the threads being poorly focused and overly generalized. Nor do they want a nice quiet discussion where everyone agrees. Nor is the subject being discussed here dismissable bullshit that needs to be hidden "in a more exclusive forum" where it doesn't offend people.
And again: your annoyance is not really the issue here.
Why did you respond to a comment not directed to you? Why did you take that opportunity to launch an insult?
Goodbye.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)Just curious.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)characterization of the thread.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)And you are clearly an intelligent person, who is raising his sons well. Imagine all the people out there who are not so intelligent, who are not so careful about how they raise their children.
All that says to me that there is a whole side of this issue that has not been explained or illustrated sufficiently, and the OP is right.
mostlyalurker
(37 posts)Because not every rapist considers what they do to be rape. If you have read any of the very good studies done with navy enlistees and college age men, you will discover that about 6% of these men will freely admit to forcing sexual acts through, physical intimidation, verbal bullying or taking advantage of intoxication or inducing said intoxication. However they will only do this when the word rape isn't used. If you ask the if they raped someone, they say no. Despite admitting to actions that are rape, they say no. So, apparently they do know that rape is a crime but they don't know that what they do is rape. And by the way, most of them admit to doing this over 6 times in their lives.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Each one covered the concepts of date rape in all the grizzly iterations. Every college kid knows and knows it well, yet it continues to happen on college campuses. Education is only part of the issue.
mostlyalurker
(37 posts)of victim blaming and getting the vast majority of non-raping men to stop tolerating the rapists in their midst. And believe me, after 10 years in the military, it is disgusts me how much "he's our bud and she and the seven other ones who accused are just lying ho's" shit I've seen. I think a portion of that comes from guys who would never rape anyone being unable to wrap their heads around the fact that someone who seems normal and is in their social circle can be a monster and they didn't notice.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it is not a monster. just a man that feels entitled that would probably say it wasnt really rape. she wanted it just gave the obligatory no cause that is the "game" women have to play.
thank you for being honest. last couple years i have been trying to suggest that we get beyond labeling these boys/men as psychos and seeing them as the boy/man next door. there are all kinds of things these guys tell themselves to convince themselves it is not rape and society/media/culture help them along by presenting all the excuses and conditioning to make them privileged and entitlted to sex.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)... from rapists, then sister, have I got a bridge for you! It's located in NYC.
Most shrinks I have known directly or just about seem to agree that 2 types of criminals are basically incurable: rapists and the pedophile subset. For a moment set aside 'why' they do it and wonder in addition (not instead) why anyone would or even could believe any of them when they cry crocodile tears that they never would've done it if only they knew it was wrong. They're playing you, sis.
As an aside to my earlier comments that rape is a hate crime, look at the rapists of various ages who attack elderly women. Did her wrinkles excite him or did he think that if he didn't take it now, he'd never get any somewhere else? It's a hate crime! That kind of attitude is set in concrete. Operating under the influence only lets loose what was already inside. And I'm not in any way implying that most men are like this, either. Plenty of them can get falling-down drunk and not lay an unwelcome hand on anybody. But if we fail to teach our kids every way possible to enhance - notice I did not say 'perfect' - their chances of survival against aggressors, then we're derelict in our duty.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)somebody's miscreant son is about to do. I can educate my daughters that some men are predators, even men who seem to offer friendship, and with that piece of information you, my daughter, should limit exposure to predators as much as possible. I know it's not fair, I know it's not right, I know it sucks, but you have to live in the world you live in. If you, my daughter, are ever raped I do not blame you for a criminal's action against you. But know that you are not powerless. You can minimize exposure to potentially bad situations and you can be educated about how to react if you find yourself in a precarious situation.
Again, I don't blame you, my daughter.
We all know robbery is wrong and the victims of robbery are simply that... victims. It doesn't mean I should stop locking my door on principle.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Squinch
(50,897 posts)than he is being taught now? Are you secure that all those miscreant sons have had it sufficiently drilled into them that an unconscious woman is off limits, and no means no? Or would you welcome someone verbally beating those miscreant sons over the head with just that message?
All our daughters get plenty of public instruction on how to avoid rape. Many of them are still raped. It's time to start publicly instructing the sons as well.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)what does it say?
Squinch
(50,897 posts)for many of the men on the other side of the argument, particularly those with children. Some of the resistance we see here, and the preponderance of comments that boil down to "I don't like talking about this!" show some men who are very concerned and threatened about the subject of rape, but who REALLY don't like to think about the fact that people they know are capable of it. (And in reality, if one in 3 women is going to be sexually assaulted, we ALL know people who are capable of it.)
A lot of the discussion from those guys seems to be "talk about this somewhere else" and "there's just too much of this in my face" and "this doesn't apply to me, so I shouldn't have to be exposed to it so much." I think many of those are the guys on the cusp of getting the point, and the proof is that it is so hard for them to look at the subject.
Yeah, I think they need to get over it, but I have hope for some of these guys.
Of course, on the other hand, there are still plenty of horrors who STILL argue that no doesn't mean no. I don't think that's what we're seeing throughout most of this thread, though.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)yes means no. Beat away. Browbeat if necessary. We should have classes and seminars on it. People disrespecting people's boundaries should be shamed. I think it needs to go both ways. I'm responsible for daughters and don't know what to do with comments that assert that I'm somehow ill-advisedly preparing my girls to be "victim-blamed" if I teach them how to navigate what I know about the world.
In political science there are two ways to look at the world. One work from a descriptive base (the way things are) or from a normative base (the way things aught to be). As a parent I try to teach both decriptive-ly and normative-ly with emphasis on descriptive realities. I offer pragmatic solutions to those described problems.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)is that she's frustrated that all these years of telling women how to avoid rape have largely been ineffective. So the way we have been approaching it has not had wide pragmatic effects.
I teach the girls in my life the best I know to protect themselves too, but I am aware that that is likely to be useless for one in three of them.
Trying something else is a good idea.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)It suggests instructing the sons INSTEAD. That is why it's so incredibly misguided.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)I think we all know that no one is going to stop teaching their daughters how to be careful. The problem is that in spite of this, 1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime. Clearly something else needs to be done.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Why is it so hard to understand that both need to be educated?
Squinch
(50,897 posts)What has historically been so hard to understand is that sons need to be educated as well. So your point is the same as the OP's.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)It's very easy to read in the OP that it suggests that daughters should no longer be educated, as that would be too insulting. Words mean things, you know.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)If there were PSAs out there commonly directed at men, there'd be no reason to bring up the issue.
You couldn't figure that out on your own?
EOTE
(13,409 posts)THAT is what is stupid. Are you unable to figure that out on your own?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Its asking why aren't there any messages directed at anyone but potential victims.
If you want to play "words lawyer" go ahead and do that all by yourself. Because I refuse to believe that you're that stupid.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)I'll go back to assuming words are meaningless now. God knows it takes a "words lawyer" to think that words have fixed definitions. How incredibly stupid.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)You're not on this thread in good faith if you ignore all the explanations.
We've done our job and explained kindly.
Here's where we lose our patience with your silly game (which we've played, and its over) and ignore you if you're unwilling to have an honest conversation with your fellow DUers.
Your choice to continue to misconstrue and derail instead of participate.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)For christ's sake, it's the first fucking sentence of the article, it doesn't get much more blatant than that. If you consider facts and logic to be a "silly game", that reflects extremely poorly upon you.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Or read the half dozen or so patient explanations already here on this thread if you'd care to be enlightened.
Your choice to feign confusion. No one with a brain is buying it. Bye!
EOTE
(13,409 posts)It's your choice to not believe that words mean fixed things. You may think that words can mean whatever you choose them to, but I prefer to live in the reality based community.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Seriously? You want to get hung up on hyperbolic phrasing And totally ignore the rest of the OP except the first sentence.
Surely you don't expect to be taken seriously?
EOTE
(13,409 posts)While not even bothering to provide one of those defenses. Funny, the only defenses I can find are other people claiming that others have already explained it. It's a stupid OP that makes indefensible claims. I've stated why so specifically and numerous times. Yet you can only fling insults and say that others have broken it down for me. You can't seriously expect to be taken seriously, can you Chief?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Law and Order or something?
Instead of a discussion board where you play dumb for kicks?
EOTE
(13,409 posts)So substantive, just like the rest of your posts. Sure is nice to make an argument using snide insults rather than anything approaching substance. Regardless, it's nice I get to play dumb and not demonstrate actual idiocy like the non-defense of the OP I'm seeing here.
fishwax
(29,148 posts)niyad
(112,959 posts)
alp227
(31,994 posts)Such as laugh at jokes like "wouldn't it be funny if that girl were raped by five guys" by Daniel Tosh and then rationalize it with "oh it's just comedy." Or parse rape a la Todd Akin/legitimate rape, or denying the existence of date rape/acquaintance rape while considering only ambush assaults from random strangers to be "real rape". See also another great explanation at reply 139.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Telling women how NOT to get raped is significantly less effective than telling men to STOP RAPING or never start in the first place. I have never seen such a bizarre post.
I will also continue to tell my sons that rape is wrong. But, they aren't rapists, so it's a FUCKING WASTE OF TIME.
So, teaching your children to do the right thing is a waste of time unless they've already started doing the wrong thing?? 
Like I said, this is one of the most bizarre posts I've ever seen.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)To do otherwise is irresponsible. And there are behaviors that all young people (in particular) should learn to avoid putting themselves at risk of becoming a victim, regardless of their sex.
Also, I must have missed all the messages about not wearing skirts that society has been sending to women. Or that being "ladylike" or "promiscuous" are directly related to violent assault.
And I'm sorry, but alcohol makes people stupid, men and women alike, and is at the root of a large proportion of acquaintance rape.
Like everything else on the planet, it's complicated. One-sided responses seldom work.
niyad
(112,959 posts)origin of the world-wide "slut walks" or the judge years ago who overturned a rape conviction because the 15-year old girl was "dressed provocatively" in tennies and sweats, or the countless implications that the way a woman is dressed means she "is asking for it". wow, how nice to live in such a bubble. unfortunately, just because YOU have not seen or heard this does not mean that it is not happening, daily.
and please show, with links from reliable sources, your assertion that alcohol is at the root of a large proportion of acquaintance rape.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)By a police officer in Toronto made such a big splash indicates that those remarks were, well, remarkable. Not typical. Not approved of by society.
A "judge years ago overturned . . ." bad judge. One of many, no doubt. But clearly not mainstream.
And "countless implications"? Cite a few.
It's also not at all helpful to live in a bubble of resentment. Blocks your ability to process information.
With regard to alcohol and acquaintance rape, try these. Took me half a nanosecond to find:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07448481.1991.9936229
http://www.med.unc.edu/alcohol/prevention/rape
http://www.drexel.edu/studentlife/support_health_services/support_health_services_cc_ucmc/self_help_topics/acquaintance_rape/
http://www.datehookup.com/content-acquaintance-rape.htm
My point being, that your anger isn't going to lead to good policy, and that a broad solution that addresses as much of the problem as possible is really a more sensible way to get the results we're looking for.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)
gollygee
(22,336 posts)seems to lead to women being blamed if they do get raped. "Well didn't you pay attention? You aren't supposed to do X and Y. If we tell you not to do X and Y so you don't get raped, and then you do X and Y, don't be surprised if you get raped."
That is my complaint. It is never a rape victim's fault that she got raped. Women can't always follow all the advice. Sometimes I have to get groceries after dark. I know it's higher risk, but I sometimes have to do it. Sometimes my hair is in a pony tail. If I've been at the gym, it might be tied back. Etc. I can't always avoid every element of risk.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)but I don't know anyone — specifically, any man — who thinks that a woman who's had self-defense training is somehow more culpable should she be raped.
However, if a 14-year-old girl goes to an unsupervised party with 20-something men she doesn't know, she's taking a risk. And her father might have said at one time, while trying to teach her prudent behavior, "don't be surprised if . . ."
But that is light years away from saying it would be the girl's fault. I have literally never heard that view expressed. And to use it as an excuse to avoid or deemphasize self-defense training is totally irresponsible.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)by suggesting we keep bad company? This isn't about the people we hang out with.
I hit google for a few seconds and found two immediately:
http://azdailysun.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/no-jail-time-for-flagstaff-cop-in-bar-groping/article_0aa8be56-f7a3-11e1-b804-0019bb2963f4.html
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/rape-victim-inviting-so-no-jail--rape-victim-inviting-so-no-jail-116801578.html?path=/local&id=116801578&viewAllComments=y
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)And I have no doubt that a longer search would turn up other examples.
My point is that these items are newsworthy specifically because they go against societal norms. And they're certainly no justification for the OP's contention that that situational awareness and self-defense instruction for women should be abandoned (or deemphasized)to concentrate on men's education.
As I said in my original response, we need both.
With regard to the people in Arizona who castigated the victim for "ruining the perpetrator's life," I attribute that to the fact that his crime fell short of violent, penetrative rape and that he had not offended previously. I don't happen to agree, but it's a long way away from suggesting that a woman is at fault if she can't prevent rape.
RILib
(862 posts)MrModerate. You dismiss stuff that happens every day as rare and write stuff that seems to express sympathy for rapists well cause it wasn't "violent penetrative rape." Here's a clue. All rape is violent. And it doesn't matter if the rapist has no previous convictions or a hundred.
You think items that happen countless times "go against societal norms." You must live in paradise on some other planet, not the one where if you're in a room with several women, odds are one is a rape victim.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)All you do is slop things up. It makes for very sloppy policy.
The fact that rape is so common is hardly an argument (as the OP contended) that self-defence and situational awareness education for women should be deemphasized.
Do you contend that rape is approved of by the larger society? That it's not despised and that consequently we shouldn't do everything we can to prevent it and mitigate its effects? Such as by teaching both young men and young women how to avoid becoming victims, and to not victimize others?
And understanding why people think groping someone isn't as 'bad' as raping someone is hardly sympathizing with criminals, it's recognizing that that some crimes are worse than others. Is punching you in the face as bad as slitting your throat?
Despite the passion that this issue raises, the only hope for solution (well, mitigation anyway) is a realistic, nonhysterical response.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Sometimes by judges, sometimes by their communities. I think that the way we focus so much on what women should be doing to protect themselves is part of the reason why people look to women and what they did or were wearing when women do get raped. "Why was she dressed like that?" "Why did she invite him up?" "Why did she go to the party alone? She should have had friends with her."
And these stories are newsworthy because societal norms are changing. People are speaking out against women being blamed, therefore women are being blamed less. I plan to continue speaking out against women being blamed.
Maybe we don't see the same thing because we're different ages and what is normal to us is on different sides of this changing societal norm. When I went to college in the early 90s, date rape was just starting to be talked about, and the concept was mocked. If a woman invited a man into her room, she should have known what to expect. Women who dress a certain way should know what they're advertising. Etc. If people younger than I am don't see that, maybe I should be encouraged that things are changing for the better. But that means that efforts to change perspective are working, and I will keep trying to change that perspective.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)And even back then, intensely horny college men knew that "no means no."
Did they always behave accordingly? Of course not. Their judgement, self-control, and moral selves were still under construction.
Did all (equally horny but more at risk from the consequences) women on campus know that they had the right to say "no" and be listened to? Not really. And that was sometimes tragic.
But they were learning, because the changes you point to were already well under way.
And — if we're going to talk about the single most common proximate cause of rape on the campuses I was on, alcohol — almost none of the kids I was being a kid with had figured out how to use it responsibly, or had sufficient understanding of how stupid it made them, or how likely it made them to do things that they knew were wrong but had lost their sensible inhibitions against doing.
As I look over the threads of this argument it seems that prudence has somehow gotten snarled up with blame, and I (and all the people I know well enough to gauge the opinions of) think they are quite distinct.
So I'm absolutely comfortable instructing my 19-year-old daughter to not invite people into her apartment that she doesn't know well enough; to not go to parties where she doesn't know anyone; and to not drink so much that she can't handle herself.
But questioning one's prudence ("Why did she go alone" isn't the same as saying "it's her fault." This thread tends to conflate the two, and my experience doesn't support that.
But would I blame her or consider her at fault if (god forbid) she was assaulted because she didn't take my advice? Of course not.
But that doesn't mean abandoning prudence is risk-free. It doesn't mean that there aren't bad people out there who will try to hurt you if they can. And it doesn't mean if you drink yourself silly you won't do something silly, like suggesting to a horny boy that you'd like to sleep with him -- until the moment, too late, that you realized you didn't.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)But I've got to say what I feel.
"And even back then, intensely horny college men knew that "no means no."
Did they always behave accordingly? Of course not. Their judgement, self-control, and moral selves were still under construction."
This to me looks like, "Yeah, college boys raped girls, but they were still young, so what do you expect?" You don't appear to be blaming them for rape.
"Did all (equally horny but more at risk from the consequences) women on campus know that they had the right to say "no" and be listened to? Not really. And that was sometimes tragic.
But they were learning, because the changes you point to were already well under way."
And now that does look like the girls just didn't know how to say no, so what can you expect? And I don't get the "had a right to be listened to" thing. If a guy refuses to listen to you saying no, whether you believe you have a right to be listened to seems beside the point. Why are you focusing on whether she "believes she has a right to be listened to"? Does that magically keep her from getting raped? I guess I don't even know what "believing she has a right to be listened to" means to you or looks like to you.
"And — if we're going to talk about the single most common proximate cause of rape on the campuses I was on, alcohol — almost none of the kids I was being a kid with had figured out how to use it responsibly, or had sufficient understanding of how stupid it made them, or how likely it made them to do things that they knew were wrong but had lost their sensible inhibitions against doing."
And then this sounds like more not blaming college rapists for rape. "Oh well, kids don't know how to handle their alcohol. Shit happens."
"As I look over the threads of this argument it seems that prudence has somehow gotten snarled up with blame, and I (and all the people I know well enough to gauge the opinions of) think they are quite distinct."
I think they're related, and I think your response here illustrates that.
"So I'm absolutely comfortable instructing my 19-year-old daughter to not invite people into her apartment that she doesn't know well enough; to not go to parties where she doesn't know anyone; and to not drink so much that she can't handle herself."
OK. You have to do within your family what you feel is right.
"But questioning one's prudence ("Why did she go alone"
My experience definitely supports it.
"But would I blame her or consider her at fault if (god forbid) she was assaulted because she didn't take my advice? Of course not."
Of course not and I wouldn't question that. I'm talking about how people view people they aren't related to, and more society-wide issues than people with their own kids.
"But that doesn't mean abandoning prudence is risk-free. It doesn't mean that there aren't bad people out there who will try to hurt you if they can. And it doesn't mean if you drink yourself silly you won't do something silly, like suggesting to a horny boy that you'd like to sleep with him -- until the moment, too late, that you realized you didn't."
Again, this sounds like you're blaming rape victims. Very much so. How do you think girls are "suggesting" to horny boys that they want to sleep with them until they realize (too late - sucks to be her) that she didn't? I'm really troubled by that statement, and it does sound like victim blaming to me. It sounds like you're saying girls flirt when they get drunk and guys misread them and it's the fault of the flirty girls - they should know how guys are going to respond to their flirting. That is a pretty good example of victim blaming, right there.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)Describing why someone does something is not synonymous with absolving guilt, any more than describing tactics to avoid having bad things happen to you assigns guilt if those things happen anyway. Hence your criticism of me is unfair.
Rape is rape. Knowing that it can arise from foolishness, inexperience, drunkenness, or inability to hear the word “no.” doesn’t make it any less a crime. But trying to understand a behavior is not the same thing as being an apologist for it.
At the same time, understanding what might cause a man to rape is very helpful in developing strategies and tactics to avoid it happening to you.
With regard to the changing status of women when I was a young man, that’s a subject for a library of books. Suffice it to say, that there were pressures on young women to “snag” a boyfriend or face social opprobrium. That often placed them in the situation of acceding to intimacies that they didn’t welcome so as to not lose those boyfriends. Many of them literally did not know they had the right to say no even when they desperately wanted to.
I’m sure this is no revelation to you.
Today we call such forced intimacies acquaintance rape. 40 years ago it wasn’t so clear.
With regard to alcohol, if a young man (shall we say) gets loaded and drives his car head-on into a minivan of kindergartners, we both understand why it has happened, and that it’s unacceptable. But just because we can assign blame doesn’t make alcohol any less dangerous. And alcohol is closely correlated with acquaintance rape, especially among young people. And it is an inescapable fact that when you’re intoxicated, you behave and think differently — that’s the objective of getting intoxicated, after all — and being “flirty” is not nearly as meaningful as “taking risks.”
And I still maintain that discussing prudent behavior – risk avoidance, if you will – shouldn’t be taken as setting up a victim of a crime for blame. And frankly, in my experience most people (on the whole, and outside of courtrooms) just don’t do that.
I’ve had several women friends who have confided sexual abuse to me (and no doubt many others who never did), and while they related a variety of responses to the crimes committed against them — including self-guilt — none of them complained that their family and friends blamed them, even in those cases when the friends pointed out that they could have/should have acted differently.
Hence the distinction I make between prudence and blame.
Perhaps you don’t see a difference. If so, then we’re just talking definitions and this conversation has never been over substantive issues.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)MrModerate
(9,753 posts)In the US. You contend that "thousands" of them would behave as the two cited to me did?
If so, why were their behaviors noteworthy?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)By police, their community (see Stubenville, see India) and the judiciary.
And campus police (two cases in the news) And that it goes on to this day.
The problem starts way before things get to court. Why are you aware of only a few cases? You've probably read less on the subject than many people here. The ones you hear about are particularly egregious or have very vocal victims.
Sadly, most people abused by the system give up and go away quietly. And then the MRA types file them into "false reports".
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)get rid of most religions as they seem to be the root of most modern day male dominance teachings. Whether Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, Evangelical, or Protestant, (perhaps even more I'm not thinking of), women with interest and intelligence are all evil-doers, "good" women are subservient to their men (and men as a whole), and so on.
SemperEadem
(8,053 posts)I've been following the issue on #TYZerlina on twitter. It is sickening the mindset of some men out there and the lengths they will go to intimidate or silence women who speak out on telling men to not rape. It's incredible.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)is a totally different experience for women.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)In fact, I'd call it expected.
grilled onions
(1,957 posts)No.... Respect.... Punishment The first is the obvious one. No matter if she is out on a date,drank a little too much, no means no. Men need to respect women. Not just their mothers,sisters,wives or daughters but ALL women. Lastly our courts are full of judges who look at the woman and either feel she is not truthful or that she was "asking" for it by being out past "curfew(in the eyes on the judge),wore provocative clothes(i.e. jeans,dress,lipstick,perfume etc) so the judge is far more sympathetic to the attacker especially if it is a spouse.The sentences have got to fit the crime. It may be "over" for the creep as well as the courts but she has to relive it every day of her life and while it may be pushed into the back of her mind a certain setting,time of the attack will bring it all back.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)It's not an either/or thing. It's both.
Men need to raise their consciousness and women need to understand potential threats and how to avoid them and then respond most effectively when threatened.
boston bean
(36,217 posts)of just how sick it is that women have to keep themselves safe.
In almost everything we do, we need to keep ourselves safe. Our moves are orchestrated to "keep ourselves safe".
Every single woman I know experiences this and knows this to be true.
It's really freaking said that all the emphasis remains there instead of the rapist, no?
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) sufrommich
(22,871 posts)that they've had to teach their daughters to behave differently than their sons once they're are out in the world and making their own decisions. To deny this is pure bullshit. The list is way more than extensive than "stay away from bad neighborhoods", we tell all our children that no matter the gender. We tell our daughters,watch how you dress, don't get drunk and pass out in any public place,be wary of any new man you're going on a first date with who you don't know well. Hell, most young women won't get on elevators if there is a man alone on it. Let's not pretend that women don't live by separate rules out of necessity than men do, because we do.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)I wish I knew why some people work so hard to ignore this shit.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)gets pulled over for driving while black " gee maybe you shouldn't have been in that neighborhood". Of course there are different rules for living as a female.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)to advise women not to accept a drink at a party from someone they don't know?
treestar
(82,383 posts)These things are only meant to help with personal security.
The ones about how you are dressed, etc. are silly, because they aren't an excuse to rape the woman, and woman aren't raped based on how they are dressed anyway. But the ones about being careful in dark places, etc., those apply to all crimes. They apply to men too, who can be attacked - in fact they could be raped.
The last paragraph in that excerpt may reflect the 1950s attitude which was wrong, but it is not the prevailing attitude now.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Iggo
(47,533 posts)How dare you, sir!
How.Dare.You.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)Then I read your reply. Thank you. 
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)for instance, burglar-proof their homes, or drive defensively?
We don't need to STOP telling women how to recognize trouble and avoid it. We DO need to at the same time and probably with much greater emphasis, teach men to keep their effing hands off any woman who hasn't requested their touch.
I don't want to see us go back to the days when women were more naive about bad things that can happen.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)things that can happen? Seriously.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 10, 2013, 02:07 AM - Edit history (1)
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, In 1980, 2.4 people per thousand were the victim of a forcible rape. In 2004, the rate was 0.4.
(I get that the definition of forcible rape is too restrictive, but we're comparing apples to apples here. What constituted a rape in 1980 is the same definition used in 2005 - a definition which excludes men as victims entirely.)
What is the reason for this decline? How do we continue this progress?
Personally, I think campaigns like this are counterproductive. Particularly the advice that heavy drinking shouldn't be considered risky.
niyad
(112,959 posts)niyad
(112,959 posts)and why is the first link something about porn?
where are the bureau of justice stats?
Helen Reddy
(998 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)redqueen
(115,096 posts)...
So what’s the catch? Why is there support for both sides? Well, the porn pushers love to talk about these studies because they seem to validate their points. What they don’t like to talk about is how the people who have since reviewed these studies have found some major flaws in the conclusions. It turns out that there are a couple of things that distorted the results.
First of all, at the same time that pornography was legalized in all of those countries, a lot of other sex crimes including peeping, “indecency towards women,” and certain types of incest, were also made legal. So with those things no longer considered a crime, it’s no wonder the crime rates dropped.
Second, Kutchinsky put rape in the same category as less serious sex crimes. That made it easier to hide the fact that serious crimes like rape actually increased after pornography was legalized in Denmark (5).
Porn advocates also don’t like to talk much about the results of studies in Sweden, Great Britain, New Zealand, and Australia, where the number of rapes increased when the constraints on the availability of pornography were lifted. Like how “when South Australia liberalized its laws on pornography and Queensland maintained its conservative policy . . . the number of rapes in Queensland remained at the same low level while South Australia’s showed a six fold increase” over a 13 year period (25).
...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Your risk as a woman dropped 80% between 1993 and 2011. Less than one generation. It is a remarkable success, one that you describe as "sickening"
Porn is correlated with decrease in rape victimization, not only because of the timeframe, but also because the states with the best internet access are the states with the greatest decrease.
Having a father in the home is a strongly protective factor for all types of at-risk behavior among both daughters and sons.
Rape prevention efforts targeting risky behaviors, and giving self-defense advise to young women have positive effect.
Men as teachers in primary grades makes boys better students and citizens.
You are against rape, yet from that perspective you are on the wrong side of every single issue you hang your hat on.
I understand that this huge social success threatens 2nd wave dogma. The apparent fact that you wish it weren't true is what I find sickening.
redqueen
(115,096 posts)on those twisted, tortured numbers.
They simply aren't accurate. Your stubborn refusal to face that fact is ... disturbing, really.
I have no idea why you're bringing up male teachers, or having a father in the home, and since you're now just wildly flailing around for any excuse to argue, I'm going to back away slowly.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)There's no point listening to someone for whom facts are immaterial.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i know you are already aware of that gives further explanation because of the last time you used the bogus 85%. and it is only touching on the subject.
this really is not for you. you have your agenda you are promoting, and thinking shit thru is not part of that agenda. it is obvious in this subthread. this info is more for people that actually want to consider the ridiculous assertion that rape has dropped 85% with it standing at college and military women raped 1 in 3 and population as a whole 1 in 4-5%.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=16052
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125516102
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)girls/women raped. general population 1 in 4/5. and you are really arguing that this number is lowered by 85%?
so in the 70's 1 in 2 women/girls were raped?
really?
at a time where we did not even have a word for date rape? at a time when rape was truly unspoken or discussed?
you are really gonna argue that rape was reported 85% more then, than now?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts).... because they conflict with the stats you heard from the colorado coalition of sexual assault.
Yes. There's a huge data collection problem. More importantly, there's a data reporting problem. A young woman growing up today has far less of a lifetime risk for being raped than women our age, because the 80's were a much more dangerous time for women.
To say that the lifetime risk for women is too high is accurate. It's because most women alive today lived through much more dangerous times. To say that lifetime risk is relevant to what's happening today is not accurate.
Even RAINN acknowledges the progress.
Whatever we're doing now that has reduced the risk for women so dramatically should be continued.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)to use it as a meh... you women are lucky today.
and you did not address a single comment i made in my posts. yet, you want people to buy this ridiculous stat number.
i think this is as horrendously irresponsible on your part as it is for MRA to promote that false rape claims is 45%-75%.
and i think it is CLEAR why MRA promotes these numbers.
i think it is beyond irresponsible.
personally, i am disgusted by it.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)And they are facts. They are not my facts, nor MRA facts (whatever the hell that is).
Rape is far less common than it was 35 years ago. To accept that 25% of women who become adults this year will be raped one must also accept that 340% of women who became adults in 1980 were raped.
You're right. It's not at all logical, but the problem doesn't lie with the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)But a game never the less. Maybe those that read your number wont so naively buyninto the garbage.
Done
redqueen
(115,096 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Don't like 85%? Then you tell us how common rape is today relative to 1980.
RAINN says it has dropped 60% since 1993. Are they a reliable source?
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault
The fact of the matter is that society is moving in the right direction. Reasonable people can disagree whether the causative factor is porn, or video games, or greater sensitivity among men or self-defense/safety consciousness among women.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Look down to references. I see only #1, no #2. If you can see a #2, would you please reply back to me?
"Sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years.2 " I don't see #2 under references. Thank you.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Thank you anyway.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)But I did chase down the statistics.
Click "custom tables" > "personal victimization" > "1993-2011" > "rape and sexual assault" > "first variable = sex" > "generate results"
The bottom line is this.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you have been in threads where it is spelled out. you ignore it. why should anyone bother gathering the info so you can ignore it and proceed to promote this stupid ass 85% decrease that makes not a bit of academic, intellectual or logical or common sense.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Allow me to mansplain.
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics NCVS survey (created to better account for underreported crimes like rape) In 1993, 834,714 women (7.7 per 1000 women) and 63,000 men (0.6 per 1000 men) were raped or sexually assaulted. In 2011 (the last year that the tool can report on) 208,987 women (1.6 per 1000) and 34,818 men (0.3 per 1000) were raped or sexually assaulted.
Between 1993 and 2011 the risk to a woman over 12 years old of being raped or sexually assaulted dropped by 80%, and the risk to a man over 12 years old dropped by 50%.
(at the link, click "custom tables"
You described this progress as disgusting. I disagree, I think it's a good thing, and I think most rational people would agree.
I don't think you meant "disgusting". I think you meant "threatening".
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)fishwax
(29,148 posts)The decline in rape (rape as defined and decline as identified in the National Crime Victimization Survey) started before the general decline in violent crime and has since the 1970s been larger than the 70% decline in violent crime since 1993 (though the decline in rape since 1993 has been smaller than the decline in violent crime since 1993).
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)... but demands to do something about safety get more and more shrill. So we buy guns, install metal detectors at the courthouses, porno-scanners at the airport, accept the "need" for the government to deploy monitoring cameras and drones, and demand that boys learn just how horrible and criminal their basic nature is.
This paranoia is so deep-seated that the simple observation that we're relatively safe is "deeply offensive" and "sickening".
Exerting some control over ones personal safety is not a fault.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)creating a false sense of security, and it's not a one-cause-fits-all issue.
Yes, men need to teach their sons to respect girls/women.
But that doesn't mean we don't also tell our daughters that not every father will teach his son(s) not to rape. Some men won't. And some men will grow up with a sense of entitlement. Or personality disorders that prevent them from being able to empathize with their victims.
Those men will be out there, and I think it's foolish in the extreme not to give our daughters the information they need to lessen the chances they'll be raped.
Like, as someone above said, telling them not to accept drinks from someone they don't know. Not to get falling-over drunk at parties. Not to get on an elevator if the person/people inside look suspicious. Not to walk alone at night to their car in a badly-lit parking lot.
It should be a comprehensive education for BOTH boys and girls. Because bad/sick people will be out there.
Yeah, it would be nice if people could move around and do what they wanted without much thought for their personal safety, but that's not the case.
Try to solve the problem from as many angles as possible.
Prism
(5,815 posts)We need both. Frankly, I think male education on sexual consent issues is lacking. I'm not sure if it's much different these days, but in the late 90s, we got a "No means no," lecture and that was that. Nothing about drinking, date rape, acquaintance rape, etc. Just a pat slogan and little else.
That is sorely inadequate.
However, being offended by campaigns designed to keep women safe in the current world we live in is ludicrous ideological posturing that is more about the sensibilities of the speaker than the safety of women.
Three weeks ago, I went to my best friend's birthday party in the city. His sister was there. She is maybe five foot one inch. She had a few, was clearly a bit under the influence, and decided she was going to walk to the train station alone - through a bad neighborhood. Once we realized she walked off, we freaked out and caught up to her and walked her to the station.
This was a 30 year old woman.
Yes, I want safety campaigns for women, and I want more comprehensive education for men.
It is not a zero sum game, and injecting ideological sensibility over safety is just a bunch of mental masturbation. I'll take more women with safety awareness any day of the week.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)I notice that it is a common theme among at least some very vocal DU feminists that a woman who exposes a lot of skin -- cleavage, skirts cut just below the butt -- is "sexual assertive" or exploring their sexuality. This is quite a transition from not too long ago when dressing that way was giving in to sexual exploitation.
Personally, I never considered it exploitation for women to be "assertive" in their dress, but why 180 degree change in feelings on this issue?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)(There is no monolithic feminist opinion here) And NONE have anything to do with rape.
Picking nits for fun?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Surely you read the title of my response in which I stated clearly that I was stepping out of the context of rape.
And commenting on an apparent complete reversal is hardly "picking nits."
If you have an opinion on my question, I'm interested in hearing it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Feminist opinion on the issue of cleavage.
Stupid premise.
And very offensive in a thread about rape- because it would appear you think there IS a connection between how women are dressed and getting raped. Otherwise- why bring it up?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)I hoped for better. Been disappointed before.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts).
You actually agreed up thread messages geared toward men could help- so why the overtly hostile responses and knee jerk defensiveness?
What's so wrong about people who are impacted discussing the issue? I get it doesn't impact you, so you apparently don't care- but why attack those that do?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)I ask you a question and get an off topic lecture instead of an answer. And now the insults and personal attacks.
Why do I bother, indeed. I probably need to seek professional help to deal with my problems. Any recommendations?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And why you're fighting so hard against people you've actually agreed with?
My question is actually relevant to this thread- why the endless hostility and attempts to derail discussion? I know a lot of us would love to understand why talk of wider education appears to offend you so.
No insults, just questions.
Your question- about cleavage, as OT and foolish as it was, was answered twice.
There is no monolithic feminist opinion on cleavage, etc.- and so the underlying premise of your question is false. You need it explained a fourth time maybe? Or do you want to derail by pretending the question has some significance in this thread?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Did you miss that part?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Your question was answered three four times, but you're avoiding mine with this nonsense *again* about how women dress?
Why do you argue so much against an OP you've actually agreed with? Why try and derail the conversation with known non-issues?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)You have done nothing but lecture me about being off topic, and that is your concept of providing an answer?
Go back to the beginning if this sub thread, read the title I provided, and then tell me why you responded in the first place. I have no doubt that you will torture me with your endless bloviating and oh-so-stern rebukes, but you will not answer any question I have posed.
So, please -- wow me!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Despite that you agree that some PSAs during "football games" could help, you still have been doing nothing here except argue moot nonsense. The mode of dress canard is just the latest pointless post in a whole string.
Why post pointless and dismissive crap when you do basically agree with the OP? It's interesting how compelled you feel to disrupt the conversation.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)You lost track of the thread, got caught up in how smart you think you are, and now you are trying to find your way out with hot air.
It is not working.
Are you ever going to answer my question?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)You come in huffing and puffing and getting the vapors.
Would you be happy if I gave you the last word? You quit making sense many posts ago, so I'm assuming you just want the last word. So, go ahead. It's all yours.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)Get a room.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Your point is what exactly?
Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #122)
lumberjack_jeff This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(53,010 posts)I wouldn't presume to infer why a woman chooses to wear a particular outfit or if she wears something others might consider revealing. I'm a feminist who feels dress choice falls into the none of my business category. I might personally find something tacky, but I wouldn't presume to know why someone dresses a certain way.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)To be honest, I have no idea how prevalent the idea is among feminists that wearing revealing is a reflection of "exploring one's sexuality" or "being sexual assertive" (from the OP). However, there is no doubt that in the early days of the movement, that opinion was never uttered.
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)and not to think that overcoming a reluctant woman is "funny" or worthy of emulation.
I'm reminded of the time I took an acting class through a community theater. The teacher never acted improperly to me or any of the other female students, but he would have us work scenes from plays. One was from a "comedy" in which a man overpowering a woman who kept saying "no." I refused to do the scene, explaining that I had twice had to throw out men whom I thought of as platonic friends out of my dorm room because they insisted on making moves (literally without warning) even when I told them I wasn't interested.
He was genuinely surprised and gave me a different scene.
I'm also reminded of what happens every time there's a scandal involving a group of high school boys (remember the "Spur Posse"?) who go around challenging one another to have sex with as many girls as possible, even if they happen to be drunk, mentally handicapped, or otherwise unable to give consent. Men in the community, including the boys' own fathers, just laugh it off and say, in effect, "boys will be boys."
I'm also reminded of a teacher in my high school who got away with seducing a succession of girl students for thirty years before anyone called him on it. Everyone knew about it, including the students and other teachers, and yet he wasn't fired until the parents of one of the girls complained. You might argue that these situations weren't really rape, but they were violations of trust and professional ethics, and yet no one did anything. Did the other men teachers and administrators think, "What a stud! He gets to enjoy all those gorgeous 16-year-olds"? I don't know. I was already long out of high school when the scandal broke.
So yeah, tolerance of sexual exploitation is a real problem.
Squinch
(50,897 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It's shocking the wrongheaded ideas high school and college kids have about men being "entitled" to sex after a certain amount of dates or dinners purchased. They certainly do need education, and skills to navigate to do the right thing by themselves and others.
And it's shocking how many guys here insist that most rapists are lone isolated sociopaths- instead of people like the Stubenvile football players, that predatory teacher you mention or fraternities who treat women like prey. They are not operating in a vacuum, plenty of people see this shit and look the other way. That's been proven time and time again.
Some men do validate and participate in minimizing and laughing off this behavior. It was commonly joked about from the 60's- 80's, and still persists to a lesser extent today. Your teacher never had to think twice about it until some gutsy woman brought it up to him. Good for you! God knows there were other students thinking you were a humorless scold- gosh, where have we heard that before?
niyad
(112,959 posts)Fight Back
by Holly Near
Fight Back - And Still We Sing: The Outspoken Collection
By day I live in terror
By night I live in fright
For as long as I can remember
A lady don't go out alone at night, no no
A lady don't go out alone at night
But I don't accept the verdict
It's a wrong one anyway
‘Cause nowadays a woman
Can't even go out in the middle of the day, safely
Can't go out in the middle of the day
And so we've got to fight back
In large numbers
Fight back, I can't make it alone
Fight back, in large numbers
Together we can make a safe home
Together we can make a safe home
Women all around the world
Every color, religion and age
One thing we've got in common
We can all be battered and raped
We can all be battered and raped
Some have an easy answer
They buy a lock and they live in a cage
But my fear is turning to anger
And my anger's turning to rage
And I won't live my life in a cage, no!
By day I live in terror
By night I live in fright
For as long as I can remember
A lady don't go out at night
fight back
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Though expected it is always disheartening.
niyad
(112,959 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)I read it before it disappeared. I totally agree about the "spinning top", but I also understand why you deleted.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The contrast between OPs like this and vitriol directed at "fun fems" by the very same people...
Mixed messages are apparently the only ones available. It's okay to criticize young women's behavior when it makes feminists look bad, but it's not okay to criticize that same risky behavior on a cautionary safety basis.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)My reading a thread on a subject of great importance to me ... and sadly, being disappointed that a group of people that are at best dismissive of women's issues (to the worst case: posters that frequently express hostility /anger and resentment toward issues "feminine" have weighed in throughout the thread in order to attempt to derail the issue at hand or to dismiss the concerns of women? Is this your working definition of trolling?
If that's trolling then I most assuredly am trolling and will continue to troll (i.e read threads that have importance to me and be greatly disturbed when I read threads containing sexist , racist, homophobic, classiest sentiments expressed throughout).
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Although the joker who liked to opine that these threads were like rape to him and men hasn't popped up. Maybe he finally got banned.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)If a man and a woman get drunk at a bar some night and then have sex (which happens, well, all the time) is the argument that, because of intoxication the woman cannot legally grant consent? I'm not being snide, I'm honestly wondering what the reasoning is.
Now if this is the case, then anyone being drunk in any situation should be unable to legally grant consent. I'm not suggesting that it's okay, or good moral behavior for a man to sleep with a drunk woman, I'm just wondering if this really, by itself, is legally rape. If it is, then we have millions of cases every weekend that should be looked into.
To clarify, I'm talking about two people who willingly get drunk, then willingly fall into bed together and have sex, in an instance where no one says "no", or "stop", or implies or states that they want to stop. I am also speaking of cases in which the two are consenting adults.
Deliberately seeking out drunk women, or men, for the sake of getting your kicks, is despicable behavior, regardless of your gender. At least, in my opinion it is. The fact remains though, that this happens so frequently that you'd be hard pressed to find many adults who have not had such an experience (a night of drunken sex).
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Girls would learn from an early age to watch for those - including Dads, Uncles, friends if the family- who violate their boundaries, take too much of an interest in them or seek to have opportunity to be alone with them.
You can see right away how problematic that would be for most Dads, but it addresses a much more common problem than the "dark alley" advice routinely given women.
So guys- how do you propose we address this and educate everyone about this? Is there any way to do it that won't personally offend you? Because I think the info out there right now is watered down in order not to offend men- and it's not working. You might say you understand what rape is- but the majority in this country has inaccurate info.
BainsBane
(53,010 posts)I can't help but think some of those ad campaigns, at least subconsciously, are about controlling women's movements in public space.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Where the only real prevention would be to live in a fortress.
I think kids need some real education about setting and enforcing boundaries at a young age and appropriate behavior. It would go a long way to reduce bullying as well as the social pressures that can lead kids into bad situations.
What's problematic is that a lot of families would take issue - as if its a personal attack. God knows a few people here read discussion on the issue as all about them too.
Anyway, my larger point is the prevention tips given to women right now suck. A broader discussion - aimed equally at men- is definitely in order.
BainsBane
(53,010 posts)and agree.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)How much interest is too much? I mean, in the case of Fathers, it's only natural that they take an interest in their daughters, that they want to spend time doing things with them. As far as boundaries go, different cultures have different social norms as to what is okay, what is expected. For instance, here, if I was to stand right in someone's face when having a casual conservation, they would think me very odd. In other places, this is normal behavior.
While I agree that the information about rape is not specific enough, it's difficult to find just the right method to educate and inform. Inappropriate touching, that is, the touching of one's private parts, in a deliberate manner, by someone who should not be doing so - is something that could clearly be considered abuse and indicate danger.
One thing I would encourage is that we make an effort to gear it towards more gender neutrality as far as children are concerned. One thing I have definitely noticed as a young man living in a conservative area is that boys and men are rarely taught what is and isn't appropriate in regards to how a man touches them (which also influences how they treat girls and women). This is a problem. It is expected that girls will be prey for sexual predators, because generally men are more commonly guilty of sexual assault and/or molestation. Yet there are many, many instances in which young boys become prey for sexual predators as well.
If we are speaking of educating children, then I think the best way to go about it is a common sense approach. If a man or boy deliberately touches a girl in an inappropriate area and she feels uncomfortable, then he should not be doing this, I would suggest the same for a boy. If we're speaking of educating adults, I would encourage the same sort of education, with some emphasis placed on self defense, on learning how to protect yourself and disabling an aggressor.
My idea, ultimately, is to inform both boys and girls of what is and isn't appropriate in regards to physical attention. Not only will this educate young boys as well as girls in regards to what is okay and what isn't, it might help boys develop the right ideas of how to treat women as they advance towards adulthood.
In other words - an effort at human education, rather than gender specific. We will be better off if everyone knows how to behave and everyone is taught with the same basic idea that we don't do things that make others uncomfortable, things that they do not want us to do.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Are clear and consistent. Both sexes need to given the same messages about boundaries, inappropriate behavior etc, and how they should deal with it. Manipulative opportunists thrive in the murk created by the lack of education and coping skills among our youth.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)but it gets lost in long threads.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)You can quote (or paraphrase or appropriate) anything you'd like from my posts, anytime. No worries. I'm not a stickler on these things and I bet you'd create a better OP out of it than I ever could.
It's a tricky subject- because I do think abusive people often do learn to disrespect and abuse others from their family and peers. I can imagine the families not being happy they are asked to even consider altering their behaviors. But the bullying and boundary crossing stuff needs to be addressed as soon as kids are in large social groups.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If I could prove to you that rape is less than half as common as it was in 1993, would you still describe prevention efforts as "not working" and must be abandoned for a tactic which better offends men?
I don't care about "problematic" or "offensive", I care about effective. If you want to effectively promote safety for young women, start here or here.
Single parenthood is associated with higher incidences of neglect. One study found that being in a single-parent household increased the risk of child neglect by 87 percent.132 Many factors may account for this. There is less time to accomplish the tasks of the household, including monitoring and spending time with children and earning sufficient money when there is only one parent or caregiver. Single parents often have to work outside the home, which might mean they are not always available to supervise their children. Single-parent families are also more likely to live in poverty than two-parent households. According to one analysis of the child poverty rate by family type, the poverty rate in 2003 was:
7.6 percent for children living with married parents;
34.0 percent for children living with a single parent;
21.5 percent of children living with co-habiting parents.133
Of course, neglect also occurs in married, two-parent households, especially if there is a high level of marital discord.134
The presence of fathers in families often has been left out of the research on child neglect. This may be because fathers typically are not seen as the person primarily responsible for providing for the needs of the children, or because many mothers are single parents or primary caregivers or are typically more accessible to researchers.135 However, research on fathers shows that the presence of a positive father or father figure decreases the likelihood of neglect in the home.136 Having a father in the household not only may provide children and the mother with an additional source of emotional support, but it also may provide the family with more money and other resources. Compared to their peers living with both parents, children in single-parent homes had:
87 percent greater risk of being harmed by physical neglect;
165 percent greater risk of experiencing notable physical neglect;
74 percent greater risk of suffering from emotional neglect;
120 percent greater risk of experiencing some type of maltreatment overall.137
You might think that you're doing girls a favor by getting them away from their fathers, but you're wrong.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)our cannot be denied. You yourself have expressed interest and support of programs that steer boys away from violent behavior. How could that ever be a bad thing?
It's impossible to discuss rape at all on your terms- which is to never offend men or speak ill of them without very carefully excluding all you good ones. Despite that, most abuse in families and within peer groups don't show up in those crime stats you love so. They are the more common and grossly underreported types of rape- and they are the kinds of rape that helping women with "tips" don't help very much at all. Those tip sheets give women- and society - a totally false sense of security.
What tips would you give a ten year old child with no resources whose working Mom has recently started to allow her sketchy acting getting to curious boyfriend to babysit? Or his older brother who wants to play weird undressing games? Or the thirteen year old who's first boyfriend, now EX, can't let go and is turning up everywhere she goes? How do we reach the young and vulnerable who we are neglecting to even acknowledge exist with PSAs like this? s
And a final word to everyone who misunderstands the intent of this OP- they are not against any safety tips given to anyone- it's only that this is what completely dominates the conversation about rape, and it's wrongheaded to think women can or should have to solve this on their own and not look to the other side of the equation. Men should care too, and should be helping us change the culture away from it's support and approval of physical aggression.
just1voice
(1,362 posts)I'm sure the corporate propaganda spin monsters will be so open to what I have to say.
Petrushka
(3,709 posts). . . when nowadays, in certain areas, it appears to be politically incorrect to accuse him of
having raped a baby?
http://www.wtov9.com/news/news/bond-revoked-weirton-man-accused-sexually-abusing-/nWk7Q/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)reported the abuse, but doctors after this toddler needed surgery. I think it has more to do with a family's shame at having made some poor choices in who they trusted with their kids, than it does with any notion of being PC.
This child wouldn't have benefitted from any messages to avoid dark alleys or not drink, would they? Many adult rape victims also do not.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)it's almost always called "sexual abuse." Why is that? I've thought that is weird too. That story seemed to be very clear that it was definitely rape and not some other kind of sexual abuse, like fondling or something. Why don't they use the word "rape" when the victim is a child?
Petrushka
(3,709 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And when you see how very angrily *some* men react to the mere discussion of rape among adults, it's not hard to see why people take such great lengths to avoid talking about it. To talk about the abuse that occurs in an family - or extended family setting is unnerving for most. (I just don't see any PC connection- just the opposite, really)
Thanks for helping me understand that post better- truly a sad case there.
talkingmime
(2,173 posts)What the HELL inspires someone to do that? No, "sick" isn't the right word. I'm not sure there is a word for it, perhaps "demented", but that's way beyond "sick". That's evil.
Petrushka
(3,709 posts). . . the word "rape" isn't good enough to describe the evil done to an innocent 2-year-old.
talkingmime
(2,173 posts)talkingmime
(2,173 posts)Real men don't rape.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)It is as obvious as night and day. No consent, no sex. Consent, sex.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)To tell women that they should protect themselves just to survive. That men cannot control themselves, watch them like a potential enemy. That they should have their pepper spray ready any time they walk to the car at night.
But that's exactly what I'll tell my daughter when she grows up. This world is what it is, and not what we want it to be. I would be a joke of a parent if I didn't tell her how to avoid violent situations, and teach her defensive strategies that she'll hopefully never have to use. Anyone who knows men well, like I do (because I am one), knows that education isn't going to do a thing. Men also know not to murder or steal, there is not a single apologist in our society for murder or theft. And yet...
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Like I said above, if I ever have a kid, especially a daughter but a son too, I will make sure she learns how to defend herself and what to do when under duress.
What's the problem with that? I dont get why it's such a bad thing to teach people, especially women and kids, what to do when they are confronted with danger.
A lot of people on this thread are living in a fantasy land of idealism. The world is full of criminals and violent people. That isn't going to change by putting PSAs out to men saying "don't rape women." A rapist sees that ad on TV and they will start laughing. This world is a crazy place full of crazy people. That's just reality.
No. I am not saying it is the woman's responsibility to stop a rape. But taking steps of prevention and self-defense is the common sense and intelligent thing to do. It could save her life.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)is on women because women have NO business being alone, according to patriarchal values. They have to have MEN with them in order to move anywhere freely.
At bottom it's based on the notion women are the property of men, and if they aren't accompanied everywhere by men, then men have the right to seize them, rape them, and do whatever the hell they want with them.
It's not common sense to be paranoid all the time, which is what self-defense classes are all about. Self-defense won't do one bit of good if you have a knife at your throat or a gun at your head. Or you are asleep in your bed, are disabled, and a thousand other instances as well.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)I am a man, and although not huge and intimidating, im a pretty good size guy. And there streets in my city that I would not dare walk down on my own. Would it be nice to be able to walk down that street and not have to worry about looking over my shoulder for some criminal looking to mug me? Of course. That's how it should be. But that's not reality. And I understand and accept that. Sometimes I wonder if police themselves are afraid of these places by how they respond to calls.
It has nothing to do with women and patriarchal values. But I recognize the fact that women are more likely to be more vulnerable than I am. If I am attacked, I have a reasonably fair chance of being able to fight the attacker off because I have the physique and muscle mass. Mother nature did not create men and women equal in this regard. That's just the way it is. Men are typically bigger and stronger than women. Most women do not have a reasonably fair chance of fighting off or escaping a male attacker unless they are skilled in self defense strategies that utilize the abilities that they do have.
In my view, giving women these skills to be able to defend themselves is liberating. Because they are able to defense themselves and not have to rely on a man to do it for them.
niyad
(112,959 posts)property, less than, to be used and abused. the ones that say that if a woman dares think she has the right to go where and how she pleases, she is fair game.
the point is, we should not HAVE to learn self-defense to be out in public, or in our homes, or in a bar, or on a date, or shopping, or running, or strolling.
Evoman
(8,040 posts)It's the only crime I know where the victim is often blamed for their own crime. There are people on DU, for god's sakes, who are actual rapists, who defend themselves.
People need to learn what exactly rape is...and that is who ads need to target. Guys who think drunk girls or passed out girls are "fair game". Guys who think no means try harder. Guys who think a girl with a short skirt wants to get laid and will get her drunk to do it.
lastlib
(23,117 posts)caseymoz
(5,763 posts)I don't see what's wrong with both advising women on safety and advising/urging men not to rape. I don't see where taking safety measures implies that your responsibility for a crime against you. If this is communicated to women regarding rape, the solution is to scoff at that message as ridiculous, and still urge that they take any and all measures to stop rape.
The main problem with the message, however, is that most rapes are not done by random attackers in the dark. Most are done by men the woman knows. So, any measure you take to discourage those random criminals are not going to apply to the vast majority of rapes attempted/committed.
If there's a problem with the preventative message, that would be it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and are directed at women, they are rightly perceived to be putting NONE of the responsibility on men.
But yeah, the fact that the tips are more intrusive (change your hair!, your clothes!!) than helpful is just the cherry on that sundae. Good point.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)Most women take all the measures advised already. I mean, they already know them. They're socialized with them from family and peers. Like locking your door, even women who complain about the advice will still take them. And if a measure wasn't taken, it was because doing it wasn't practical at that moment.
So, I'm guessing now, the advice is insulting. Almost all women are taking preventative steps, but the rapes still take place in outrageous numbers.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)or in a car with a male friend, or allow your boyfriend to babysit for your toddlers.
That's what it would come to, and it's insane, unworkable and no way to live!
And of course instead of recognizing what a fucked up rock and a hard place dealing with that it is, men would get all angry and insulted, and dealing with their hurt feelings would become the center of the discussion instead of dealing with the problem.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)...it would be extremely irresponsible not to suggest to anyone interested basic measures to reduce the odds of being attacked. A person can act completely within here rights--morally and legally--and still be raped or murdered.
But yeah, the one at fault for a rape is the rapist and he can do the most to enhance safety by not committing a major felony. And parents and society should raise boys to respect personal boundaries and to be considerate of the feelings of others, especially girls.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)I've seen a lot of people suggest that women should learn self-defense, and to me that implies, that if women, once again, take the responsibility into our hands to prevent rape, then we just won't be raped. Well, fine. Women do take self-defense and those women still get raped. And women take self-defense and then can be drugged or knocked out and still get raped.
Hell, there was a period of time women and girls were taught that it was more dangerous to fight back. More importantly, we are taught that we should do whatever it is we have to, to simply survive a rape with our lives. If we decide that allowing ourselves to be raped is what's going to keep us alive, all the self-defense classes in the world won't help up. Then, if we do decide that allowing ourselves to be raped is what's going to keep us alive, a defense attorney is going to use that against us (some republicans want to legislate that if proof of a fight isn't evident, then it must not be rape) and could very well sway a jury to believe that "we asked for it," because we didn't fight back.
So yeah, self-defense is great for women to learn, it's good for self-confidence if nothing else but it isn't the end-all, be-all to prevent rape.
FBaggins
(26,714 posts)I'll teach them how to reduce their chance of getting mugged... or robbed... or scammed...
...without any fear that they'll think that the advice means that it's their fault if someone robs them.
Sure we need to teach our sons to be gentlemen who respect the women in their lives.We also need to teach our daughters to settle for nothing less and to recognize the real thing. (assuming hetero for purposes of debate)
Judging from the flood of posts in recent weeks implying that many DUers aren't... this skill may be far less common than I would have assumed.
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)is if the men know it is wrong and not to do it.
HOW IS THIS FUCKING DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND?!?
Girls can dress as "slutty" as they want, shake their asses all they want and drink my drinks. That doesn't give me right to SHIT, except to bitch about it to my roommate when I get home. It's my own damn fault if I'm offended.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)is for people to stop beating up other people.
But since this is not going to happen, they would be well-advised to learn to protect themselves.
HOW DIFFICULT IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND!?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)We address the bully continually and repeatedly. I do not think I have ever heard the victim addressed to change his behavior to avoid being bullied.
You reinforced what we are saying.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)My ability to control or influence what other kids do at school is limited compared to what I can instruct my son to do.
I literally CANNOT change other kids or how their parents deal with things. All I CAN do is to help my children deal with the world.
And no, he does not think I am blaming him -just trying to help.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and ya, you would be pretty darn careful i addressing the issue with the son to insure that he did not think he was being blamed because there are too many traps that the kid would interpret exactly that.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Or would you perhaps expect the school to address it, and stop looking the other way.
How would you react if the school refused and asked your son to dress differently, to sit with teachers at recess, avoid field trips, and to take a self defense class WHILE saying nothing to the bully or their family after your kid comes home with a broken bone?
Would that seem practical too? You'd be okay with that policy?
Deep13
(39,154 posts)If there are 100M adult males in this country, even if 1/10th of 1% of them are rapists, then that's 100,000 rapists. Even if the culture is dramatically altered, we will never get rid of all rapist tendencies. So some caution on the part of potential victims is always warranted.
It is not about what one has the right to do or expect, but the reality of how the world actually is. A rape is always the fault of the rapist, but that is small comfort to a victim.
Hekate
(90,496 posts)The lessons start very, very early with little girls.
I was a "good girl." It didn't stop me from being seriously molested. I became very prim and proper in dress and manner as if that would protect me in the future. My mother, who did not know my secret, told me decades later I looked as if I "just froze" at that age and she never could figure it out. Every high school and college boy I ever dated experienced my deer-in-the-headlights behavior.
Tell me about the girls who become promiscuous and wild. I'll bet there are a bunch more like me; we don't cause any trouble so you never hear about us.
But all the lessons I ever got were to tell me how it was my responsibility to keep rape from happening. Now I know it's pretty much just luck that I never got raped.
I think the author of this article is right on target. Tell the men that it is their responsibility to create the paradigm shift.
Hekate
Evoman
(8,040 posts)Educating young men that no means no, and that there are other guys, cool guys, who don't rape drunk girls or passed out girls would have an effect. That's probably the demographic you want to target...young college and high school kids. The guy in the alley...which is the least common type of rapist...is not necessarily the one you want to target because he doesn't care. But who knows....its worth a try.
With that being said, I'm really glad my fiancee took Rape Defense courses. I can't help it...I worry about her and want her to know how to defend herself.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)1. no means no
2. everyone should exercise situational awareness and reduce their odds of becoming the victim of any crime.
3, Any attorney who does not do everything that is legal to get their client acquitted should be disbarred.
politicandy
(16 posts)If you're clueless about rape, just don't talk about it at all. Hint: If you're part of the Tea Party and male, there's a 92% chance you're clueless about rape.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 10, 2013, 09:08 PM - Edit history (1)
Mostly, and thanks for an important post. The root cause of the problem - sexism - needs to be addressed. And rape is not a sex crime - it's a hate crime.
Meanwhile though, if you don't mind, I'll continue to advocate teaching realistic, effective self defense ways to enhance the chances of fending off a rapist. It doesn't mean I'm blaming the victim at all. But if girls are reared from an early age to respect themselves enough, I have no objection to mopping up the floor with an attacker. It's no panacea in many situations, but when applicable I say go for it.
Too many people are reluctant for many cultural reasons to teach their girls how to fight. As for the objection that it will make them rough, hogwash! Study enough martial arts under a serious teacher in a dojo that's not just a fancy dance class like so many, and you'll learn that you yourself are your own major opponent. Once you conquer your own fears of being hit and develop the self control to excel, you'll be a far more peaceable human being than before. Not to mention a lot less vulnerable. This enhances success in any field of endeavor.
This may sound counter-intuitive, but it's true. I'm especially impressed with the classes for adults where a well-padded instructor plays the attacker and the student learns to fight hard and keep fighting for all she's worth. It helps cure this deadly passivity that society inflicts on women.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)All girls should be taught self-defense. Not necessary to be a black belt--just learn self-defense. It also helps to learn to accept the potential for being attacked. A lot of women are vulnerable because they do not suspect that their friends and relatives may rape them. Teaching self-defense helps women to know where the boundaries are and not become a victim.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Do we also need to stop telling people to not leave their drink laying around for fear of ruffies, is that verboten?
Seems to me we have a moral obligation to provide women with whatever information keeps them safest. This doesn't have to be a replacement for the message given to men about not being that guy and not raping, it should be in addition to that.
Rape education for women should include information about how to identify inappropriate violations of their personal rights in relationships, who are the most likely people to rape them and a general safety tips like the ruffies/drink thing. I don't see how any of that is offensive or patronizing and none of that precludes messages about the responsibilities of men in preventing sexual assaults.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Of their personal rights, etc aren't out there. The "don't be that guy" campaign was a small Canadian one- and the first we've seen- and only on DU. That message isn't what's out there. The ones listing pony tails and shirt skirts are!
That's exactly what the OP is about- being fed up with variations on this tip list and seeing nothing else but a list of don't for women. Please don't be so literal and take our word for it.
fifthoffive
(382 posts)Say "someone" gets dressed up, goes out to a bar, perhaps has one too many and goes with an attractive flirt up to their room. That "someone" is then raped.
"Someone" brings charges, and there is no blame-the-victim in the trial.
You guessed it, the "someone" is a man. Whether the rapist in this case is male or female is irrelevant. The victim is male and no amount of flirting, suggestive dress, or being in the wrong place would be used to imply that "he asked for it."
Rape is not sex. It is an attack on the victim's body and psyche.
Response to ProfessionalLeftist (Original post)
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