Why the announcement of a new Pope sparks contempt among some.

[MineralMan]

There are a lot of negative posts regarding the election of a new Pope. Why is that?

Well, the Roman Catholic Church has been a force for a very long time to keep some groups down and subservient.

The RCC has championed bans on contraception, not only for church members but for everyone. At one time, when I was in High School, contraception was illegal in many states, a measure sponsored by the RCC.

The RCC has opposed reproductive choice for women - all women, not just members of the church. It still does.

The RCC has opposed LGBT rights, and still does.

The RCC has opposed marriage equality. It still does.

The RCC considers women as second class members of its own hierarchy.

The RCC officially covered up the sexual abuse of children for a very, very long time. It still hasn't taken responsibility.

If you want to know why not everyone is eagerly awaiting the new Pope, there it is. Its very, very unlikely that the new Pope will change any of the things in the list above. Very unlikely, indeed.

[Brainstormy]

1. Everthing!

about the Catholic church inspires contempt in me.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

100. GOTTA HAVE MORE Catholic STORM TROOPERS

[toddwv]

122. Anything about any highly organized and hierarchical religious system

naturally sparks contempt in me.

[AlbertCat]

132. Everthing!

There's some great music and art! (but that's about it)

[OregonBlue]

2. I agree. In my mind I think RCC and I think pedophilia. I probably always will.

[Whisp]

8. and priests ripping off old people of money

my dear old gramma was scammed like that. she really believed it would bring her closer to heaven, the dirty rotten shitbag scammer.

[MH1]

118. Well, that's not just the RC Church by a long shot.

I once worked in a call center and Sunday mornings were the worst.

[valerief]

103. I think a lot of us feel that way, too. nt

[Dawson Leery]

3. The RCC would allow a woman with a medical emergency to die

rather than provide and abortion.

They stole babies from poor women in Spain and sold them to wealthy couples (during Franco's reign).

The RCC has earned this animosity.

[MineralMan]

5. Yes, I have not forgotten the case of that poor woman

in Ireland. The shame is borne by the RCC, or should be.

[Arugula Latte]

7. And here is yet another atrocity committed by the RCC: the Magdalene laundries/asylums in Ireland

http://americablog.com/2013/02/magdalen-laundries-catholic-ireland-irish-apology.html

[ReRe]

111. Thanks for adding the Magdaline Laundries..++++

... Shame. The RCC is no better than right wing fundamental evangelistic Christians. Also, they support all these needless wars. Remember when GWB and his cabal took us into Iraq? Pope John Paul was old and frail. He did speak out strongly against the war before it began. But what got me was why he didn't fly over there and plomp himself down in the middle of Bagdad as a human shield. And to boot, he could have taken all but a few of the Cardinals with him and planted them all over Iraq. That war would not have happened. And GWB would probably have been defeated in the 2004 election because of it.

Why are religious people so scared? They have nothing to loose. If they are really against something, why are they not willing to put themselves in harms way to stop all the needless killing? After all, if they really believe in their faith, and God forbid harm comes to them, would they not go straight to Heaven??? Hypocrites, that's what I think of religious leaders. How's about Billy Graham and his band of evangelicals all over the country? Even they could have stopped it by planting themselves all over Iraq.

[backscatter712]

106. And there's that whole slavery thing in Ireland (aka Magdalene Laundries.) n/t

[Arugula Latte]

4. We're scolded to be "respectful" of the Church. Meanwhile, if you are a woman or gay

the RCC wants you to shut up and mind your lowly place as a second-class citizen. It has no respect for us and thinks it should be able to legislate what we do and don't do with our bodies. Oh, and BTW, how dare you bring up the child rape cover up ...

So, yeah, I feel contempt oozing out of me when I see these creepy patriarchal dudes in medieval costumes picking another overlord.

[MineralMan]

11. If a religious organization expects to get universal acceptance,

it must behave itself and respect the beliefs of others. The RCC does not, on either count. It gets no acceptance or respect from me.

[Arugula Latte]

12. Exactly.

[snooper2]

31. hundreds and hundreds of posts over somebody writing "fuck the catholic church"

this place is amazing...
"But, But But, what about all the GOOOOOOOOOD the church does!"

[The Straight Story]

6. It is like grave dancing in reverse (nt)

[LittleBlue]

9. Don't we have enough of these threads?

I'm an atheist, but even this is getting pretty old. Boring narcissism "look at me" thread.

[MineralMan]

14. Yah, thanks for your reply. nt

[Puzzledtraveller]

18. My thought is this

So you disagree with the RCC, a very old, ancient, extremely inlfexible religious institute. It's not like the Kiwanis club saying blacks and whites can't share the same swimming pool or something. We know the RCC is like this. It's their club, their rules.

All apologies to Kiwanis, I just pulled that out of nowhere, I have no idea if they ever prohibited blacks and whites from using the same swimming pool.

[madmom]

55. Their club, their rules is fine, as long as they keep it in their "club", which they are not!

[firenewt]

131. Exactly. As a former Catholic I weep for the RCC. Too many chances to do the right thing are

turned into a 'circle the wagons' response.

[JHB]

113. DU does have a "trash this thread" function...

...when I find that thought popping up about some subject, I tend to make liberal use of it.

[geek tragedy]

10. the RCC is the patriarchy made flesh.

Roman Catholicism is simply imcompatible with belief in gender equality and civil rights for GLBTQ human beings.

They are actively seeking to undermine progress made over the past few centuries on that account.

So yeah, screw the next pope, whoever he is.

[baldguy]

13. The Church's only sin is that it cloakes itself in infalibility

When it's so obviously run by oh-so-fallible human beings.

That's enough.

[gcomeau]

39. Ahem... *only* sin???

Perhaps a rephrasing is in order there?

[WinkyDink]

44. Name a major religion that doesn't and isn't.

[baldguy]

75. Precisely

[AnotherMcIntosh]

130. Quakers

[AlbertCat]

134. Quakers

A MAJOR religion....not a sect.

[Recursion]

15. And a new pope is the only hope of changing most of that (nt)

[MineralMan]

17. Mark my words. The new Pope will not change

those things. He was elected by people who don't wish to change those things. Things will not change.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

57. Change is constant, time will tell.

[Rozlee]

97. The Catholic Church probably will change with the times.

It may take 359 years like it did with Galileo, but it probably will. But, that'll mean that it'll get caught up to the 21st century almost at the year 2400.

[MineralMan]

19. Here is the new Pope:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

What changes will you expect from this one?

[LiberalFighter]

23. Just got done reading the wiki on him

And I don't see any change forthcoming. Plus the fact he is 76 years old and not likely to be given time to enact change if it he was of a mind to do so.

In a way they now have an Italian pope again since his father was Italian.

[SunSeeker]

105. Sure seems like it. nt

[Arugula Latte]

20. Well, that hope is gone. The new guy is just as big of a rightwing nutbag as the rest of them.

[MineralMan]

24. Yup. nt & no change.

[Dawson Leery]

21. What happens when a Pope attempts to change the church:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_I

[dbackjon]

25. New Pope is a conservative asswipe - think another Scalia

[Recursion]

27. Scalia doesn't believe in social welfare and he does

Then again so did the last two.

[dbackjon]

29. Social welfare if you are straight, or male

[Recursion]

34. No, social welfare for everybody, but limited reproductive and sexual freedom

We take what we can get, and few people are entirely good or entirely bad

[dbackjon]

36. Why settle for a woman and gay hating prick?

[Recursion]

37. Why are you asking a Protestant? (nt)

[magical thyme]

133. you wrote "we take what we get" which implied you're Catholic (nt)

[MineralMan]

86. I could introduce you to any number of ELCA

leaders who are for social welfare for everybody, and for reproductive choice and marriage equality. They are believers in Christianity, as well. The difference is remarkable between their views and those of the Roman Catholic Church. Their liturgy is very similar to the current Catholic liturgy. They have very similar religious beliefs. But, they support equality and individual rights.

There is choice in Christianity. One needn't accept reactionary views regarding equality issues. There's another congregation just around the corner that has views that are just fine.

[Freddie]

99. Thank you from another Lutheran

My husband is an ex-Catholic and often notes the similarity in the church service. Says we're like the Catholic Church without the misogyny, homophobia and pedophiles.

[MineralMan]

121. Although I am an atheist, many in my wife's

family are ELCA Lutherans, so I have been to many services in Lutheran churches, and have talked to a number of Lutheran ministers. All have been very commited to tolerance and equality.

[RainDog]

123. Actually, massive law suits for shielding pedophiles

could be the one hope of changing all that by stripping the church of assets and its ability to operate in nations who would put other such organized criminal activities out of business in much the same way and deny them the opportunity to exist on their soil.

[joeybee12]

16. I think you're right about nothing changing with the new Pope...

Especially since they elected him very quickly...if it had been a controversial choice or even a charismatic one, it would have taken longer.

[MineralMan]

22. Meet the New Pope - Same as the Old Pope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

[Liberal In Texas]

26. All that plus, I have no use for this religion that brought us the Inquisition and the Crusades.n/t

[hfojvt]

28. Griswold v. Connecticut was in 1965

but the law it challenged was written in 1879 - before Catholics had much power outside of Maryland.

So I don't know that the Catholic Church sponsored those laws. Supported keeping them on the books, no doubt, but probably not a sponsor.

[MineralMan]

30. Yes. My state was one with many laws

sponsored by and supported by the RCC. Long after they should have been repealed, they were kept alive by the RCC. Even today, the RCC fights equality in many areas. A pox on it.

[upaloopa]

32. As a fallen away Catholic ( I never believed in

the churches creed or teachings) I see the Catholic Church as a form of superstition and as such is used to control people.
I invite everyone to read Immanuel Kant's answer to the question of "What is enlightenment."
I went to a Catholic College and in our philosophy classes we were not permitted to discuss Kant's philosophy.
On edit my brother is a Catholic priest we are at opposite ends but he is progressive and told me last night he is worried about who will be the next Pope.

[earthside]

33. Not an enlightened institution.

The Roman church is indeed anti-progressive.

In its 1,600 year history it has been a force mostly for oppression and for maintenance of the establishment power structure ... and it had done whatever was necessary to keep itself in power, including genocide.

Fortunately, in the beginnings of the 21st century, I'll bet upwards of eighty percent of Catholics don't believe in Catholic dogma if they even understand it.

[MineralMan]

35. No, not that, for sure. A lot of people seemed to think

that the election of a new Pope would bring much needed change to that institution. As I expected, they elected a new Pope who will simply continue the repressive, medieval ways of the old Pope. Feh!

[Recursion]

38. A Jesuit from the Global South will definitely be different in some ways (nt)

[MineralMan]

40. Not in any substantial ways.

The Cardinal who was elected is anti-abortion, anti-gay, and opposes liberation theology. He is a clone of the last Pope, in all respects that make any difference. There will be no changes in church doctrine regarding matters of equality.

[Blue4Texas]

115. Interesting as Argentina and Jesuit

But in substance and content is the same as all the good ole boys in the Catholic Church flexing muscles over women and anything sex.

[LiberalFighter]

41. I stand by my hidden post by a jury about the pope.

I wonder what everyone on this board was saying about Ratzinger when he became pope?

[amuse bouche]

42. This new creepy guy

is a huge homophobe

"Bergoglio has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, contraception and abortion and is considered to be among the most conservative in Latin America.

In 2010, for instance, Bergoglio stated that same-sex adoption is a form of discrimination against children and has said that same-sex marriage is “a scheme to destroy God’s plan” and “a real and dire anthropological throwback.” He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow for marriage equality"

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/03/13/1714691/new-pope-elected/

[WinkyDink]

43. At least the Vatican isn't trying to cut Social Security and Medicare.

[MineralMan]

45. Actually, the RCC has opposed "Obamacare"

because it requires insurance coverage for contraception. I do not know its opinion on SS or Medicare, though, and don't care.

[Recursion]

46. If you don't care what they think about SS and Medicare

why do you care what they think about equality and reproductive freedom?

[MineralMan]

49. I do not care what they think about those

because they do not speak about those. I care deeply about what they think about equality and reproductive freedom, because they speak loudly about those. I hope that clarifies my position for you.

And with that, I am done discussing this issue with you.

[Recursion]

58. They certainly do speak about those. This one has, in particular

We live in the most unequal part of the world, which has grown the most yet reduced misery the least. The unjust distribution of goods persists, creating a situation of social sin that cries out to Heaven and limits the possibilities of a fuller life for so many of our brothers.

But the last two popes were also hard on the global market in general.

[liberal_at_heart]

47. I understand the call for accountability but I get tired of the hatred

We should never let up on demanding they fire all clergy who molested children and those who protected them. We should never stop demanding that the church change the way it treats women and gay people. But I do get tired of the out right hatred. I think I'm going to start trashing these threads.

[MineralMan]

48. I don't hate the RCC. I simply oppose its doctrines and policies.

I especially oppose its insistence on inequality. I'm not having any of that. I want the RCC stripped of all influence on US political realities. Period.

[liberal_at_heart]

51. I'm not saying you hate the RCC, but some of the posts against the RCC

can get rather vile and I just don't care for it. That's all.

[MineralMan]

54. OK. People will express their feelings.

I am simply explaining some of the reasons they have those feelings.

[LiberalFighter]

101. All churches should have their influence in politics stripped.

[Zoeisright]

68. I am going to hate anything and anyone who

demeans people based on an old, poorly written book, who regularly calls for the ostracizing of people who are perfectly normal (gay people) and who hurt millions based on disgusting, perverted, disproven fables.

[Skittles]

120. the outright hatred of women and gays shown by the Catholic Church?

I hear you, ABSOLUTELY

[JoePhilly]

50. Read your OP title, and then read your last sentence.

Notice the difference ... ??

"Why the announcement of a new Pope sparks contempt among some."

"If you want to know why not everyone is eagerly awaiting the new Pope, there it is. Its very, very unlikely that the new Pope will change any of the things in the list above."

You changed the framing from "contempt" to "eagerly awaiting".

There is no way the new pope was going to be significantly different than the last one.

That's just a fact.

The only interesting things about this selection is (a) that he comes from Argentina, and (b) that he's a Jesuit, which is generally considered to be a (relatively) more intellectual and progressive segment of the church.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

63. Time will tell, way to early to judge, you're just guessing now.

[JoePhilly]

73. That's why those things are interesting.

They MIGHT led him to put his emphasis in some different places, but still nothing way off the radar.

The Catholic Church doesn't do change well, and almost never quickly.

[magical thyme]

136. re-read your second quote. NOT EVERYONE is eagerly awaiting the announcement

Some of us are eagerly awaiting for this to fall off front page news because we find the RCC downright offensive.

[Stuckinthebush]

52. Indeed

The reality is that this pope will be just like the last pope and dig his heels deep into the mud of tradition.

But...the good news is that very few American Catholics even listen to a pope. So, whatever he says will go in one ear and out the other.

The bad news is that many Catholics around the world do listen to a pope.

More of the same.

[Drunken Irishman]

53. I have no problem with people who are critical of the process and the Catholic Church.

I do have a problem when people dismiss it as a fairy tale and other demeaning terms. Tolerance is a staple in DU, but Christian intolerance is almost always universally accepted. This is the only group, outside Republicans, who posters can openly mock and show contempt for without ever getting into trouble. Hell, in many instances, you can't even do that with Muslims without offending those who turn around and trash the Christian and religious faith - as that bigotry isn't accepted, and shouldn't be accepted, but often is far more vocally criticized than some of the posts I've seen on DU the past few weeks.

To be sure, criticism and not believing are perfectly acceptable and I think it's healthy to have a debate. But often, those who believe are mocked as naive or stupid on here with no subsequent rebuke by the powers to be. Then they get angry when the Vatican or the Catholic Church says something that vilifies them.

It's kind of ironic, don't you think? Yeah.

One thing that is certain - DUers equate all of Catholicism with Rome and what the Vatican says and what priest do. But that isn't the case. A majority of Catholics voted for Obama. Our vice-president is Catholic. Our Secretary of State is Catholic. Either a plurality or a majority of American Catholics support gay marriage and almost universally support contraceptives. Catholic nuns came to Obama's defense in 2012 and took to the country to push a great deal of his agenda. The first Hispanic Supreme Court Justice is Catholic. They all share a progressive vision - even if it's not exactly shared by those in Rome. Still, as it was with all of us when Bush was our president, while he was our leader, as the Pope is to a billion Catholics, he doesn't necessarily speak for all of us and it's not fair to hold us to his words ... because they're not ours.

But that doesn't mean we can't be excited for the selection of a new pope. Yet DUers are quick to remind us that it's stupid, trivial, silly and ridiculous - the whole thing! They might believe that. But to a majority of Catholics, it's an important moment that does not happen often. This is only the second time since I've been born where a pope was selected and it is exciting. Of course, I don't expect anyone on DU to share in that excitement ... but it is telling how quick you all are to tell us everything that is wrong with the Catholic Church and the future pope and the selection process and everything else associated with my faith.

I'd also like to say that DUers have now essentially defined liberal and conservative, left-wing and right-wing on two issues - gay marriage and abortion. If you oppose both, you're a right-winger and the debate is to never to happen because it's absolutely set in stone. Which is ironic, considering these same people are quick to call our President a right-winger ... even though he supports gay marriage and abortion.

But if you expected the next Pope to come out in openly embrace gay marriage and abortion, you were absolutely fooling yourself. It was not going to happen - especially the abortion thing. The best thing we can hope for is that the pope is a progressive on other issues and focuses less on abortion and gay marriage than Benedict did. Even the most progressive priests and nuns oppose abortion. That's just the way it is and always will be. Most will oppose gay marriage - as our President did not even two years ago. The evolution of this is not as fast as it should be and it will be much slower for the Catholic Church. However, like I said, that doesn't make the next pope a right-winger.

Pope Francis the 1st has the ability to reshape the Catholic Church by using inclusive rhetoric and not focusing on gays and abortion and instead, focusing on fixing the Catholic Church. I think most DUers would agree that if this pope spent his papacy fighting poverty and globalization, with barely a mention of opposition to gay rights and abortion rights, which very well could be the case, though we don't know, then there would be improvement and something to grow on in the future. You know?

Maybe he's a clone of Benedict and certainly he has come out against gay marriage - but that's to be expected. It's not necessarily those personal views that matter, because we already knew they were baked into the cake no matter who walked on to the balcony, but rather how the pope chooses his message. If he's like Benedict, whose sole intention it seemed was to demonize the left and the gays, then sure, you are absolutely justified in calling him a right-winger because that is what will have consumed his papacy instead of focusing on pressing issues that do matter to most liberals and progressives.

Myself? I'm going to take a wait and see approach. I wasn't happy with Benedict's election, but I feel more optimistic with this one because I do have hope he can focus more on poverty, the environment, the sex abuse scandals and every other issue DUers might agree with this man on since he is a Jesuit and someone who is clearly an intellectual.

So, what I'm trying to say is that the best we could hope for was a pope who didn't make it his lifelong mission to attack gays and so-called abortionists and we still may have that. Does that mean you should accept or tolerate his positions on those two matters? Absolutely not. But it's entirely possible this pope readjusts the focal point of the Church away from those social issues and more toward healing the world. If this pope speaks openly, and accepting of all God's children, then I think he will prove to be a good pope and a decent human being - even if we have huge disagreements. I know some DUers will disagree, and that's fine, but the Church was not going to radically adjust with one election. If he can set the course for more tolerance, even if it doesn't change the Church's position on key issues, then he'll have done what I expect from a pope - a man who focuses on the more important issues than whether two men want to marry.

[Arugula Latte]

59. But even if you are liberal, and your priest is, you are supporting an anti-gay, anti-women agenda

if you are Catholic, because all roads lead to Rome. That's the bottom line.

[MineralMan]

61. I am an atheist, and have been one since 1965.

By definition, I think all religious belief is superstition. However, I don't care what beliefs people hold, and don't belittle them for those beliefs.

As for the Roman Catholic Church, I do ridicule and have contempt for it. For the institution. It is a force for discrimination, inequality, and evil, in some cases, as with the sexual molestation and its cover-up.

I did not expect any changes to come from the election of a new Pope. His election is not a source of anything other than a shoulder shrug. The Church will maintain its discriminatory doctrines and will continue to push for things that harm people. I'll have none of it.

This pope opposes women's reproductive choice and equality for LGBT people. That is enough for me. I have nothing but contempt for those positions.

Individual Catholics I judge individually. The organized Roman Catholic Church, I judge as an institution.

[Drunken Irishman]

64. That's fine...

Hey, you're free to think whatever you want. I'm not going to approach this with a glass half empty mindset because I fully expected the new pope would be anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage. Everyone knew that. So, I take it to the next step - how will this Pope treat those individuals he disagrees with? Is he going to be vocal in his condemnation like Benedict or is he going to be more accepting with those viewpoints he disagrees with? He's spoken out on gay marriage in the past - but who's to know what he says as Pope Francis.

That's what I'm waiting for. I look at this as baby steps to a better, more inclusive church. Maybe Francis isn't that pope and he turns into an exact copy of Benedict - but then, maybe he is and that's what I want to see. But I'm not going to deduce his papacy down to two issues that I knew the next pope would be in disagreement with me on because I understood that was coming no matter what. We all knew the next pope was going to oppose both gay marriage and abortion. So, what's the next best thing? I think a pope who speaks more tolerant and I'm hopeful, though maybe it's guided by the emotions of a new pope, that's who this guy is. We'll see. I might be absolutely wrong in that regard.

But from my perspective, what are you going to do?

I'm also going to duck out. I don't much like what DU has become and I think it's time I take a break. It's just not the site I thought it was. So, if I don't reply, that's why.

Have fun and good luck.

[MineralMan]

67. The Church has had ample time to mend its ways.

What am I going to do? I'm going to fight for the things that are important to me, and those include women's rights and LGBT rights. I have no concern for religious doctrine. It's of no interest to me. I am concerned only with secular issues, and the Church wrongly inserts itself in such issues, even for those who are not followers of its doctrine.

For followers of RCC doctrine and supporters of that organization, I ask: In your support, you support the organization. In so doing, you support the things I oppose. Why do you do that? But, you needn't answer the question.

[Drunken Irishman]

78. Okay. I think I owe you a reply before I depart.

So, I will say this before I leave DU for a prolonged period.

When you supported Obama in 2008, did you also support his stance on gay marriage?

Did that put you in direct opposition to those who supported marriage equality?

There is a disconnect here. Especially coming from someone who's been vocal in their support of Obama. Obama is not perfect. Obama has taken a lot of stands on many issues that puts him in direct opposition to a great deal of progressives. That doesn't make him any less good, though, because, in 2008, he believed gay marriage to be morally wrong. It was how he approached that stance that made it easier to accept his position.

And, I might add, you also voted for Joe Biden to be vice president, who, like myself, is Catholic and by your definition, he is in support of things you oppose because he is a follower of the Catholic Church. See how easy it is to muddle shit like that?

Don't be so self-righteousness, MineralMan, it's very unbecoming and a big reason why I'm not going to miss this place during my break.

Good luck. My hope is that this new pope does not hold as much contempt toward gays as you do toward Catholics.

[MineralMan]

84. You owe me nothing.

In 2008, I supported marriage equality. Candidate Obama supported something less than that, but supported civil unions. He has since changed his position, in part because people like me and others encouraged him to do so. The Roman Catholic Church, as an organization utterly opposes same sex relationships. Candidate Obama supported a woman's right to choose in reproductive matters. The Roman Catholic Church utterly opposes that in all areas.

I have no contempt for Catholics as individuals. I have contempt only for the organization that is the Roman Catholic Church. You have missed that entirely.

Good luck to you.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

80. I really don't care what any here are

only how you conduct yourselves moment by moment, day by day.
Love and forgive, it's called peace, if you can't do that, well, I won't judge you.

[LiberalFighter]

102. I wonder who would be elected Pope if the followers got to vote

instead of leaving it to the Cardinals?

[CAG]

125. +++1000

[get the red out]

56. In many ways

it is, and has been, a criminal enterprise along with being anti-freedom. As an institution, it is a frightful one IMO.

[fadedrose]

60. My idea of a great pope

Would be one that tells the truth about basic beliefs, and how Christmas is based on a pagan religion. and that pagans are not evil. And that the beliefs that Catholics must believe are based on fiction and myths.

But he's anti-poverty. That's as much as we can expect from a Catholic pope, and he appears to be humble.

[MineralMan]

71. Let me ask you this:

Do you condemn same sex marriage and a woman's right to choose abortion? Personally, I mean. If you do, then you're on the wrong website.

The United States is not based on The Bible or any other religious document. The Bible has no relevance to our government.

[Arugula Latte]

72. The Bible is bronze age mythology.

It's sad so many people still use that silly book of fictional stories to justify their need to control others.

And, by the way, see ya. I'm sure you're not long for DU.

[MineralMan]

74. One post and out.

I think it was an intruder of some sort.

[HuckleB]

83. +1,000,000 ... 000

[Dryvinwhileblind]

65. As a former drone raised within the catholic "faith"...

...may I respectfully add that the "only good pope", is no pope at all. I excommunicated that mob of archaic pedophiles decades ago...I still, to this day, thank karma for allowing me to squeeze through that nightmare w/o being molested... abused?, that's a whole different nightmare. Fkm!

[Arugula Latte]

108. Welcome to DU!

[Dryvinwhileblind]

116. Cheers!

[Zoeisright]

66. Among "some"?

Only those with logical reasoning ability and a moral code.

[BlueStreak]

69. It is more basic than that. This charlatan claims to have a hotline to God

And claims to be infallible to boot.

Really, isn't that enough?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

70. March 13 of 2013 has the triskaidekaphobians freaking too.

[LiberalFighter]

76. Would this be a factor too?

Popes Gone Wild: What the Catholic Church Would Rather You Forget

Papal Impropriety

The Criminal History of the Papacy

On the other side...
[link:http://knowledgepower.hubpages.com/hub/who-was-the-best-Pope-for-the-Catholic|
A list of the best popes in the Roman Catholic Church?]

I couldn't find anything more about good popes.

[Nye Bevan]

77. Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Dennis Kucinich, and the Kennedys are Roman Catholics.

It is possible to be Catholic and a good Democrat.

[MineralMan]

79. Why, yes they are. None are in the hierarchy of that church,

however. I'm not attacking Catholics. I'm attacking an institution. While I do not understand how people can support an institution with the doctrine of inequality held by the RCC, that's their business. If they support equality, then I'm on their side.

The Roman Catholic Church, as an organization, though? I'll have none of it, thanks.

[AnnieK401]

81. Yeah, not looking for the Catholic Church to become liberal

anytime soon. I would have been very surprised if the new Pope had been on record as supporting choice or supportive of LGBT issues.

[HuckleB]

82. They also work to keep nuns quiet.

Further, the coverage has been ridiculous. We should be attacking the media for their bizarre waste of resources to cover an easy story instead of doing their jobs.

[HockeyMom]

85. Former Catholic, who cannot officially leave

If you have been baptised as an infant, they still count you in their inflated numbers. There was a petition to formally leave but that site was taken down years ago. WHY????? I had no choice as a baby. I most certainly DO as an adult.

My awakening came at 15 years old in Catholic school. I chose NOT to raise my own children in this religion. So why can't I officially leave? It's been 50 years and I have not changed my mind in my old age. My children feel the same.

Let your people GO.

[MineralMan]

87. You don't need to officialy leave, actually.

You just leave. Their records don't matter. If you are still a Christian, there are a multitude of churches that share progressive views.

[ButterflyBlood]

128. From another one baptized Catholic, who is not Catholic today, that is not a big deal

Yes the church keeps baptismal records and it refuses to delete any, because in their view that would be historical revisionism, the baptisms happened regardless what the baptized currently believes. And there's also the somewhat logical thought that if someone did leave and returned a rebaptism wouldn't be necessary, so deleting them would be counter-productive in a way.

The Catholic church doesn't rely on those records for its membership figures. If it did, it'd be extremely inaccurate even not counting conversions away, since there's also cases of deaths and people moving who wouldn't update dioceses. There's no way based on a baptismal record to know where that person is currently alive and where they currently live. Diocese memberships are estimates based on other factors.

It's a non-issue. You left, you don't have any association or affiliate with that church anymore. I don't either. I don't know anyone who particularly cares about this either. I was rebaptized last year in a different church for the record.

[jeff47]

88. Then there's the whole "Hiding a dictator's political prisoners" incident.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/04/argenitina-videla-bergoglio-repentance

Story is from 2011:

What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentine hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church's collaboration and in these crimes. The extent of the church's complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence). He recounts how the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate. The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio's name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment.

[MineralMan]

89. I've just heard about that. I'll be looking into it further. Thanks!

[TinkerTot55]

137. Interesting information.

I have to admit that when I learned the new Pope was an Argentinian, the first thing that popped into my head was the link between the Catholic Church, Italy, Germany, and Argentina.....specifically, the strange relationship between complacent and complicit Roman Catholics, church Hierarchy, and Fascism. It would be a fascinating subject for study.

It's also very obvious that this "new" Pope, for all the symbolism the media are trumpeting ( "Look, he's all new and shiny!! Don't look at the pedophilia scandal!! Don't look at the other abuses and controversies in the Church!!" ) is almost 80 years old....at best, he won't be around very long at all. At worst, his mental and physical health will probably make him into a puppet figure to be manipulated by the real power(s) in the Church.

A truly visionary choice would have been a Pope from the same region, perhaps NOT Argentina, with Jesuit training, and a strong record on social justice issues, in short a good and compassionate, and educated man........who is in his late 50's or 60's. You know, someone who would hopefully be around long enough to afford the Church some stability, and who could do the hard work to make real change.

/Idealism off.

[amuse bouche]

90. I agree

It is disgusting that a person like this is celebrated here

If he supported the KKK would that be alright too?

[union_maid]

91. I think it's a mixed bag, like most things

I'm not and never have been Catholic. I"m also not religious. Just saying. Their positions on things like women in the clergy and reproduction are medieval. The positions on reproduction make any kind of headway on same sex issues impossible. Sex and marriage are reserved for reproduction, period. So, that's all very bad. The sex abuse scandals are, of course, beyond words.

OTOH, they are often on the right side of issues involving state sponsored violence in this modern era. And, around and about here, if you need to feed or house someone who's destitute and they've exhausted all the social services options, you call the church. The RC church specifically. If it's after hours and you need to get someone food, you might even call the rectory and be given some of their food. Catholic charities does more, in this locality, for the poor than most other organizations. So, mixed bag.

[MineralMan]

93. Any organization that is against

reproductive rights for women and marriage equality has passed beyond any support I might give for anything else. Add to that the RCCs choice to cover up sexual abuse that went on for decades, and there is no support available for that organization.

There are many Christian denominations that support women's reproductive rights and marriage equality. If I were a Christian, which I have not been since 1965, I would choose one of those. The core religious beliefs are essentially the same. There is choice for Christians. Why people choose the RCC, I have no idea, but my contempt is not for them. It is for the institution.

[Recursion]

96. So the Democratic Party before 2012 had passed beyond any support from you?

Interesting.

[union_maid]

114. How many people choose?

I mean, I don't mean you're not allowed to leave. My mother did, long before I was born. She was born Catholic, but she bailed when she was in college. But what I mean is, Roman Catholicism is the majority religion where I live, but I've met very few converts to it. Everyone was born into it. Some are religious, some aren't. All go about their business without regard to edicts from the church. I think it's just part of their culture.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. The new Pope would dismiss my self-determination and free will.

Calling my work to pass and normalize same sex marriage, as demanded of me by the laws of the land, and generally you know... giving a shit about humanity: 'the work of the devil'.

No, it's MY work. Of my own volition. I proudly stand on it. And he can kiss my ass.

[MineralMan]

94. Yes, it would do exactly that. And, in so doing,

it loses my respect and gains my contempt.

[SoCalDem]

95. If people quit buying into it all, their power dimishes..

People who support the RCC get what they ask for..

We could choose to be real and truly separate church from state, and let the churches tend to their flocks on worship days and in their faithful's homes, yet we keep plodding along trying to curry favor (politically) with the churches (all of them), and we wonder why things are so "complicated"..

[alfredo]

98. They say the Papa is for social justice, let's hope that extends to our LGBT brothers and sisters.

[nikto]

104. What The Catholic Church needs most desperately, RIGHT NOW...

Another Pope John XXIII (The Real Deal)





He was special. One-of-a-kind.

If you don't know about him, read about him.

IMO, He was what a Pope is supposed to be.



NEVER FORGET THIS GUY.

[Zax2me]

107. So why is Islam given a pass?

You just don't see it near as much around here.

[Arugula Latte]

109. One factor is that Islam doesn't have that much influence in this country.

Christianity and Catholicism do. Look at all the creepy old Catholic men who were up in arms about wimmenfolks having access to contraception. CONTRACEPTION. In 2012. And they had the ear of the U.S. House of Representatives.

That's not to say that Islam doesn't do untold harm elsewhere in the world.

[AndyTiedye]

110. Yet They Still Have a Controlling Interest in the US Supreme Court

[ReRe]

112. K&R

x 1,000,000,000

The only salvation I see is that he is from South America, not North America.

[Skittles]

117. oh but we need to "TONE IT DOWN"

yes, that is what we are told by people who think all that is just shit to be swept under the proverbial rug

[MineralMan]

129. I think we need to discuss the positions of the RCC.

Despite everything else, the Church has a lot of influence with people. That varies from place to place, of course, but where there are many Catholics, the RCC does have influence. And it is used to sway people's opinions.

Fortunately, that influence often fails. In Minnesota, the Catholic Church spent a great deal of money and energy promoting last year's constitutional amendment that would have permanently banned same sex marriages. That measure did not pass, but it was a close, close call. It was another example of the Catholic Church attempting to control everyone, not just Catholics. Their effort failed, but it doesn't always fail in these situations.

No organized church should be allowed to campaign for or against any measure that affects people who are not Catholics. Period.

[whistler162]

119. It is one of the allowed areas of bigotry

[RainDog]

124. So, opposing a hierarchy that actively shielded pedophiles is bigotry?

Interesting way to look at this issue.

Opposing groups like the Republican Party, whose homophobia and sexism are even less enforced than that of the Catholic church hierarchy is a form of bigotry too, I suppose, to you. Because that's what you call bigotry - opposition to a powerful group that attempts to deny full human rights to INDIVIDUALS.

[ButterflyBlood]

127. It's a voluntary association, just like being a Republican

No more bigoted than disliking the Republican Party.

[MotherPetrie]

126. K&R. The Catholic church hierarchy is IMO just evil. I have known some great nuns...

[uppityperson]

135. One HUGE thing to remember is that RCC is not the people. Or rather no need to bash every person who

is catholic but do indeed bash those and the organization that seeks to limit people like that. Rather like the difference between disagreeing strongly with what a government (and its supporters) are doing but not hating the people who live in the country.

[MineralMan]

138. And I did not bash Catholics. I am talking about the organized church only.

I think that was clear in the OP.

[uppityperson]

139. It was clear, adding in for others who may have missed my point

You were clear, no problem, piggybacking onto your thread.