I am a Catholic, Baptized, First Communion, Confirmed, Altar-Boy...

[trumad]

Last edited Thu Mar 14, 2013, 06:32 AM - Edit history (1)

and a couple of years of Catholic School and Catechism.....

OK---those are my credentials.

I think--- I think this gives me the right to say what I want to say about the religion that I grew up with.

So here I go.

I think the Catholic Religion is one of the most offensive organizations that has ever existed.

The atrocities that this one single organization has committed throughout history surely has to be ranked in the top 5 of any out there or any that has ever existed.

Yeah I call it an organization--- hell I call it the Mafia on steroids.

I hate this celebration---I hate the ignorance of those who congradulate and celebrate this bigoted Son of a Bitch who stood by why freedom fighters of Argentina fought against dictatorship.

It is all a sham---possibly one of the most successful shams in all of history.

Amen!

[Nye Bevan]

1. Does the fact that Joe Biden is a practicing Roman Catholic reduce your respect for him? (nt)

[trumad]

2. Simplistic reply to my OP.

You don't get it do you?

I don't give a rats ass what Biden does in his free time. This is how I feel!

[RainDog]

6. This is the typical response from that poster here

I've seen it over and over again and have seen it in reply to a post of my own.

The reason for it, as far as I can tell, is the desire not to offend people who don't want reality to intrude upon their beautiful world (call it the Barbara Bush syndrome.)

[amuse bouche]

28. 'Barbara Bush syndrome'

Sounds rashy and itchy

[Nye Bevan]

54. Barbara Bush is not a Catholic. Joe Biden is.

Not sure what conclusions should be drawn from this.

[RainDog]

57. Surely you aren't that concrete minded

The reference to Barbara Bush had to do with her statement that she didn't want her beautiful mind to be made unhappy by others pointing out issues that would interfere with the fantasy in which she enveloped herself.

Here's the exact quote:

"But why should we hear about body bags and deaths, and how many, what day it's gonna happen, and how many this or that or what do you suppose? Or, I mean, it's not relevant. So, why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that, and watch him suffer." (him being her son on the eve of the war crime that was the invasion of Iraq.)

So, what I was saying is that you don't want others to say things that you think will offend those who identify strongly as Catholic while others look at the organization and hierarchy that is the RCC and find no reason to defend its continued sexism and homophobia.

You use Biden as a way to tell people you want them to shut up.

People can have all sorts of religious beliefs. If Biden's religion includes acceptance of homophobia as doctrine - that's his problem, not mine. But as an institution that is also its own state - the Catholic church works to undermine the legal rights of a lot of people and, even when it upsets the beautiful mind of someone who doesn't care - others do.

[Politicub]

59. This...

"You use Biden as a way to tell people you want them to shut up."

[Nye Bevan]

69. Absolutely not. There are no rules here about slamming Joe Biden's religion, AFAIK.

The whole purpose of a message board is to debate. I have never told anyone here to "shut up" and never will.

[Bradical79]

129. I think that was the point

You don't tell people to "shut up", you bring up Joe Biden instead to kill argument. Just saying Joe Biden is a catholic is a pretty meaningless statement, and really has nothing to do with what he wrote.

It's a straw man argument.

Now, I don't think you're consciously thinking you need another way to tell this guy to shut up, but that's essentially what you're doing regardless. He expressed thoughts you don't like. So rather than address what he actually wrote, you're taking his feelings about an organization as a whole which he's based on history and modern organizational decisions, and misrepresenting it as a personal attack on someone most people here like.

[Puzzledtraveller]

140. I'm loving your wit RainDog, good responses.

[lark]

157. Off topic

This is about the institution.

[coldbeer]

142. Your simplistic reply made my day. I would love to have a beer with you!!!

trumad, thanks.

I am an ordained minister and give a blessing at beerchurch
every Sunday! "Beer Church is over, all your sins are forgiven.
Go out and sin some more!"

My definition of sin is having sex with your spouse.

[HuckleB]

71. Thanks for the tip.

I think I will have some red herring for lunch tomorrow!

[rhett o rick]

92. So what are you really trying to say? Why dont you just say it instead of asking a question like

that? If you dont agree with the OP why dont you get brave and speak out instead of insinuating via question?

You logic is twisted in any event. Let's see how this goes. If you like Joe Biden, then you must like Catholics. Or in another way, If you criticize the Catholic Church then you must not like Joe Biden.

Tell us what you think of the Catholic Church.

[Nye Bevan]

95. And how about JFK? (nt)

[rhett o rick]

114. That's not even a complete question. How about him? Your questions are childish. nm

[snooper2]

145. I think a good number of politicians give religion the lip service it takes

to get elected...

You've got tons of unwashed masses who believe in sky beings...sometimes folks just have to play along to get votes.




hopefully in a couple more hundred years more folks will figure it out...

[strange7]

179. Good one.

Whatever it takes

[TheAmbivalante]

94. Since you asked...

Nothing affects my opinion of Joe.
He could murder a kitten with his bare hands while you mom blows him (again) and I'd still vote for him.

Does the fact that your avatar is a picture of a man in a hat sucking on a smoldering tobacco rod reduce your respect for yourself?

[Nye Bevan]

97. The bigotry against cigar smokers here is simply shocking (nt)

[OldDem2012]

100. I don't recall Joe Biden taking part in the Spanish Inquisition, or enabling the Holocaust,....

....or attempting to hide priests engaged in the sexual assault of tens of thousands of young boys, or standing by while the right-wing government of Argentina killed thousands of political opponents.

Maybe I missed it, but what's your point about Joe Biden?

[Nye Bevan]

104. Excellent point.

Catholics who did the stuff on your list clearly deserve to be criticized.

[OldDem2012]

109. So does the Catholic organization who either took an active role in those events, or....

...enabled those events, or tried to cover them up.

[Bradical79]

131. Organizational decisions are how you judge an organization.

Most of the criticism from the OP comes from organizational choices, not the choice of a single rank and file Catholic acting separate from the Church. You don't seem to understand the difference, or possibly don't understand the history behind these atrocities.

Annie works in the mail room at Goldman Sachs corporate office. She gives to charity, loves her family, and believes in liberal values of equality and universal healthcare. I guess I shouldn't criticize Goldman Sachs because I like Annie. Or I shouldn't criticize Chase bank because someone we like banks with them. Or when high ranking officials there commit fraud, it's not the organizations fault because humans at some point made decisions. See how your line of thinking doesn't make any sense?

[lunatica]

122. Does it occur to you that there's a difference between Catholics and the Catholic Church?

I know a lot of practicing Catholics and they aren't the Catholic Church. Not even close. Just yesterday I had a conversation with one who was actually quite saavy about the history of the Church. They get it. They question it. They understand its history.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

124. if Catholics don't make up the Catholic Church

what does? if you said the Catholics don't make up the LEADERSHIP of the RCC I would have agreed... but Catholics most certainly DO make up the Catholic Church.

sP

[lunatica]

126. You missed my point

Most Catholics aren't caught up in the doings of the Church. They don't pay much attention to the Pope or the politics. The Catholics I know are very aware of the scandals, and not one of them defends them. And I'm willing to bet that Joe Biden doesn't defend the Church a whole lot these days.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

128. i got your point

but maybe you missed mine... as a member of the Catholic Church one would be supporting the doctrine/dogma/policies and execution of all. there has been a litany of disturbing actions from the Church over the years and to continue to be a member of the Church IS a choice. why would someone be a member of a Church that they don't support?

sP

[lunatica]

130. For the same reason one is an American Citizen

You can believe in the fundamentals without totally supporting what your country does. Most people live their lives in the gray areas and are pretty comfortable there.

One of the more unfortunate things that Bush brought us is the polarized views in this country. Black and white and nothing in between. We're neck deep in that type of thinking which is why nothing is being done.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

155. false analogy

leaving the US requires much more than does changing a religious affiliation or dropping it. there may be financial risks/hindrances as well as 'who the hell will take me' sorts of problems.

sP

[BlueStreak]

137. Yes. It makes me wonder how much of the rest of his brain is also wacko.

[GeorgeGist]

146. How about Hitler?

[quinnox]

3. and to follow up on the first post, what about John F. Kennedy?

I think he was a great president. Does his Catholicism affect your opinion of him?

[trumad]

12. and to follow up on my second post...

I could give a rats ass what JFK thought about the Catholic Church.

And---if he lived, and was still around today---he might be disgusted with this gay bashing POPE!

[amuse bouche]

26. It's amazing

how so many are trying to rationalize the pope's bigotry using famous dems as shields.

Absolutely horrifying coming from progressives

[bobduca]

43. here's the key

Posters defending bigotry are not progressive.

They are lying conservatives.

[amuse bouche]

58. You have a point there

[Occulus]

169. Here's the corollary to your completely correct key, offered as a follw-up

Those who claim that a negative response toward those who are acting as bigots under the cloak and color of religion (or tradition, or custom, etc.) is itself bigotry are themselves the actual bigots.

aka as "you are an intolerant bigot for being against my freedom of religion (even though you are responding to the actual bigotry expressed by my religion and its adherents against YOU)".

Hope that's clear.

You don't want to know what I have to say about catholics who put money in the plate every Sunday and still call themselves "good people".

[treestar]

82. For that matter

He did not succeed, as Argentina adopted gay marriage. Popes and Cardinals don't have influence on the political process nowadays.

[MsPithy]

49. Maybe you should review Kennedy's speech from Sept. 12, 1960.

"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.

I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish--where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source--where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials--and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all. ...

But let me stress again that these are my views--for contrary to common newspaper usage, I am not the Catholic candidate for President. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for President who happens also to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my church on public matters--and the church does not speak for me.

Whatever issue may come before me as President--on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject--I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise."

You might not be old enough to remember, but at that time there was a great mistrust of "Papists." Every Catholic who holds national office today owes his/her job to this speech given by JFK. Would any Catholic politician be brave enough to give this speech, today?

[ReRe]

112. Bravo! Bravo! n/t

[Dawson Leery]

4. Agreed!

k/r

[Zax2me]

5. A billion people disagree with you.

But you should find some comfort here.

[rebuke]

9. And a half billion

thought the earth was flat.

[trumad]

14. I guess we have a billion homophobes then?

[zeemike]

91. The brush don't come much broader than that.

Oh right, you were just asking.
Perhaps someone here is a shrink and will tell us how to tell

[trumad]

98. well you are telling me that

A billion Catholics are supporting this pope.

[zeemike]

105. I am not telling you anything

You are telling me that all Catholics are homophobes unless I guess they renounce their faith.

[trumad]

119. hey you made the statement

that a billion catholics disagree with me. What makes you so sure of that?

[zeemike]

139. I made no such statement.

I just called attention to you painting with a broad brush and saying that if you are a catholic you are a homophobes.
Perhaps you should make them wear the scarlet letter.

[Humanist_Activist]

51. He's most likely still counted as a Catholic in that number, as am I, an atheist...

most people, myself included, don't go through the formal process of leaving.

[Puzzledtraveller]

143. Haha, never thought of that, that would include me also though

now I am not anything, I like to learn and study religions and cultures but somehow it's made me completely neutral on the topic. I suppose I could say that I enjoy reading Hindu texts much more than any other.

Plus I was divorced so I'm persona non grata in the catholic church, not that it matters to me.

[HuckleB]

72. Red herring really is delicious!

And many Catholics are not all that fond of modern popes.

[magical thyme]

120. and 6+ billion people agree with him.

see, the numbers don't work in your favor the way you think they do.

There are far more non-Catholics in the world than Catholics. I think it's safe to say a significant majority of us are tired of having your pope rubbed in our faces every time we try to find out what's going on in the world or celebrate a Christian (or pagan or wiccan) holiday.

Between the Catholic church's pedophile rapist priests and the Catholic Church's financial corruption, a pope resigning to avoid prosecution and a new one appointed to continue to cover ups, well, please. Just. Go. Away. Spiritual leaders, my ass.

[rebuke]

7. Keep your faith in your heart

"When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity; when many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."
- Robert Pirsig (1948-)

[Arugula Latte]

21. ^ What a great quote ^

I also like "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." ~ Mark Twain

[amuse bouche]

22. Another version

Last edited Wed Mar 13, 2013, 10:15 PM - Edit history (1)

When you believe your own hallucinations, it's called insanity

When you believe others hallucinations, it's called religion

[REP]

8. If you meant Church instead of Religion

I tend to agree, if only because parts of my family had to escape Torquemada.

I don't have a problem with any religion. Just the hierarchies and those in power; this case, the RCC.

[forestpath]

10. Went to Catholic schools for 12 years and totally agree with you.

[SemperEadem]

45. same here

and not a fuck has been given in their direction since May of 1978 when I graduated from a catholic high school.

[Summer Hathaway]

11. Wide is the gulf

between the tenets of Catholicism as a religion and the Catholic Church as an organization.

Most Catholics I know (especially those I am related to) base their beliefs on the former, and totally dismiss the latter.

Catholicism, like all other Christian religions, can be beautiful when the words of Christ serve as a model for behavior and are adhered to.

The fact remains that Christ's message (whether you believe him to be the son of God or merely an enlightened mortal) was never broken. Sadly, the PTB in the Catholic Church - as well as many other 'Christian' churches - decided that example needed to be 'fixed' nonetheless.

[trumad]

15. Good post.

[bluemarkers]

63. yes it is

Many Catholics I have talked with over the years feel trapped - in their minds and heart they know that the Catholic Church has many issues. Not one Catholic I have talked with over the past few years supported Benedict at all. They are embarrassed and angered by the pedophilia scandal. They don't believe in many of the rules etc, and they particularly feel the "no contraception" is offensive and intrusive. Yet they still got to mass and give money. They have this conflicting feeling that they will go to hell if they don't.... They know it's irrational but there it is.

[pintobean]

13. I wonder if anyone is missing

Whovian, today.

[amuse bouche]

29. Yes I do. Thanks for asking

Where is Whovian?

[pintobean]

52. Lol

Right here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=290284&sub=trans

[amuse bouche]

56. But of course

Some love getting those they disagree with banned. It's the small and petty DU way

[pintobean]

65. I've never alerted on you.

Whovian was an admitted shit stirrer. I'm glad he's gone.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022295220#post205

[GeorgeGist]

141. Who?

[Iggo]

16. Yup.

[amuse bouche]

17. You are so very correct sir

Now you will be called a troll and alerted on

It's a shame we dissenters are not allowed to speak truth here.

[trumad]

18. LOL

I am a troll...the most successful troll DU has ever seen.

[amuse bouche]

24. Ok then

Congratulations

[trumad]

25. Kidding of course...

What I am trying to say is... after 12 years of living at this joint--- I simply do not care what some think of me here.

[Skittles]

27. you want I should kick your non-caring ass, trumad?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

113. You say "I am a troll." But you can't be the real trumad.

While trying to make his point, he would have otherwise said "I am a fucking troll." Anyone who has been here for a while knows that.

You must be an imposter.

[truegrit44]

19. I was also raised strict Catholic

and I totally agree with you. I don't have anything against the people that practice it anymore than I am against anyone who practices religion in any form. But, the church itself has done so much damage to the world thru brainwashing innocent people and causing untold suffering through out the ages, that the very idea of this clown show disgusts me.

[JanMichael]

20. Thank you. Can you

please speak to the person chewing me up on my thread where ALL I did was say "I am sorry." We aren't chatting about the Christ or Buddha here.

It's beyond ridiculous.

Let's have a Pinochet appreciation thread on DU next, shall we???

[amuse bouche]

30. They protest and alert

so much because they know they are wrong to support such vile standards

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. "Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton

The Catholic Church (and, other religions) have proved Lord Acton right a multitude of times.

I gave up on Mother Church at age 12 when a priest gave me the "The Lord works in mysterious ways" song and dance on too many times.

[s-cubed]

31. Trumad, I have all your qualifications (except alter boy - no girls allowed) plus 12 years of

parochial school. I agree with you. I could not remain a Catholic.

There are many, many good people who are, or were, Catholics. I trace my liberalism directly to what I learned from those Sisters of Mercy.

But there are two churches: the one you described, which has done immense harm. The other one is made up of the good people, both religious and laity, who truly try to live the teachings of Jesus. I respect them, and I do not blame them for what the official church does. Yes, there is an argument to be made that being a practicing Catholic is inherently supporting the official church. But I don't begrudge them the solace they receive from the real practitioners of Jesus's teachings.

[trumad]

37. Honestly-- I loved going to church as a kid...

and when I go occasionally, I still dig it.

It really has never changed.... it's like riding a bike, kneel at a certain time, cross yourself at a certain time---The Mass or Eucharist, etc....nothing has changed...and I like that.

I have gone---recently---to those big rock concert like churches with full on productions--- non-denominational.... I hate it. If I want to go to Broadway, I'll go to Broadway.

Make no mistake though--- I cannot stand the hierarchy of the Catholic Church... They are bigoted, misogynists, and dinosaurs in every way.

Their behavior the last couple of decades with the whole pedophile scandal has turned me off of the church---FOREVER, and I will never go back...ever.

Those who celebrate this new POPE or dismiss the complaints of folks like myself---are sadly---and I mean sadly, misguided.

[bluemarkers]

68. grew up in the Episcopal Church

completely understand - I miss the ritual the standing and kneeling, the prayers and the music etc

I've been to a few monster churches and felt like I should have purchased a ticket, they rocked and rolled, but lacked soul.

[HuckleB]

32. My history is very similar, as is my opinion.

Thanks for having the guts to post this!

[RebelOne]

33. I was an Episcopalian, first communion, confirmed

and all that other crap when I was a teenager. And I woke up and decided that all that religious mumbo-jumbo was a sham, so I became an atheist when I was in my 40s. And I could care less about the new pope.

[Submariner]

39. In the 50s, I was taught your kind would burn in the flames of Hell for eternity

12 yrs of nuns in the archdiocese of Boston. We were taught that ALL, and I mean ALL, non-catholics would burn in Hell forever for not being catholic. I consider myself lucky to have been only physically and mentally abused, not sexually fucked with.

They ingrained us with bigotry from an early age to look down on all non-catholics. They can take their imaginary sky people and shove them where the sun don't shine.

[NaturalHigh]

34. I disagree with you completely...

but you're entitled to your opinion. I wonder if you're open to others having an opposing opinion. There are probably about a billion people who think you're wrong.

[trumad]

38. Like I said--- Ity is my opinion...

but what you are telling me is there are a billion homophobic followers.

[NaturalHigh]

41. Right - all Catholics are homophobes.

Where do you get this stuff?

[trumad]

53. well.. a billion celebrate the pope correct?

[NaturalHigh]

132. Okay...good luck with that.

Some people just need to feel outrage all the time I guess. Personally, yes, I celebrate the new pope and pray for him.

[trumad]

133. Then you celebrate a Homophobe.

Correct?

[NaturalHigh]

134. No. I celebrate the election of Pope Francis.

Have the last word. Now goodbye.

[trumad]

135. Thanks for the last word.

At least your honest about celebrating a known Homophobe. Hope that makes you feel better.

[Arugula Latte]

144. And Pope Francis is a big ol' homophobe.

So there you are.

[NaturalHigh]

147. "So there you are..."

Astounding theological argument there. Your opinion is noted.

[Arugula Latte]

148. You support the guy. Own it.

[NaturalHigh]

149. Yes, I support the guy. I own it.

Thank you for your time.

[Arugula Latte]

150. Thank you for supporting homophobia.

[Zoeisright]

171. I feel sorry for you.

Because you are supporting the election of a pedophile-enabler, who sucks the wealth from poor countries and lives in incredibly luxury, while making others miserable. God, that's simply disgusting.

[Zoeisright]

170. If you support the church you support what they stand for.

Why can't you get that through your head?

[Logical]

106. Millions think Obama is a Muslim! Are they idiots or not?

[valerief]

35. What you said!

[treestar]

36. It has existed for a couple thousand years though

And might have done some good along the way.

It supported nuns and monks, kept learning alive in the dark ages.

We may disagree with some of its more conservative positions today. But it's too old an institution to condemn outright as always evil.

[trumad]

40. Oh I am sure its done some good...

but I'm convinced its done more harm than good.

[RainDog]

44. Slavery is an even older institution

Just because something has existed for a long time doesn't make anything about it right - or wrong.

[treestar]

48. The Church is a very large and complex institution with a long history

I was merely pointing out it may have done good too along the way.

[RainDog]

50. I was merely pointing out that an appeal to history

isn't a good argument to make about an institution that has colluded with right wing political organizations for much of its recorded history - no matter the stances of individuals who associate with it.

[bobduca]

61. Appeals to History, Appeals to Authority

Lots of Appeals being used today.

To defend a Phallocracy apparently one must use logical fallacies...

(homophonic pun notwithstanding)

[treestar]

79. Huh?

The church may have done some good in 1410, let's say. It did keep learning alive in the Dark Ages. It has reformed over time. It may be conservative, but then, at one time, it wasn't - at one time it was for radicals. Such a large organization lasting over so many centuries will have both good and bad.

[RainDog]

81. when was it for radicals?

And what radical ideas did it support?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

84. Are you kidding? The pointy hats and Liberace robes? Now that's radical. :-P

[treestar]

85. Hello, when it started it was a cult like any other

Successful cults that grab enough people end up an organized religion.

The Romans persecuted the Christians - they were going against the established order. At its beginning, even the Catholic Church was going against the status quo.

History goes back before 1990, you know.

[RainDog]

87. so you're trying to claim that the Catholic church and the early Christians are the same thing?

history doesn't support your claim.

I wonder how much you actually know about early church (i.e. those who called themselves Christians) as opposed to the Catholic Church, which did not come into existence until much later.

[treestar]

89. They would not have been entirely different people

Rome was a place where Christians were. Finally, a Roman Emperor adopted Christianity.

It was not an entirely different history.

[RainDog]

93. More Jews were martyred in the revolt of 66-70

than there are of any records of Christians facing martyrdom for refusing to sacrifice to the official gods of state. Records indicate that many Christians chose to make the sacrifice to the state and then apply to be accepted within the Christian community.

For hundreds of years, Christianity was an oral tradition religion, not a written one. It wasn't until after they co-opted Jewish texts and worked to find apologias within them, and after Christianity became the state religion of the empire, was there an "official" Christianity - at which time it was no more radical than it is today and was used, then as now, in support of political power and justification for the acts of physical rulers.

[RainDog]

99. and just to be honest about history

Last edited Thu Mar 14, 2013, 07:03 AM - Edit history (1)

The church did not keep learning alive in the west, beyond a tiny population of elites. This was the reality in western Europe for much of its existence.

The Muslim invasion and conquest of Spain is what ended the dark ages of Christian rule in the west and its focus on superstition and absolute demand for adherence to a set of beliefs, no matter how widely those beliefs diverged from reality.

Muslims brought their libraries to Spain, their Jewish translators, their more open and accepting society for other faiths (far, far more open than Christians regarding Jews, for instance) and those translated texts made their way from Spain to Italy and beyond.

That's the foundation of the Renaissance.

Even into the 1600s, people could be persecuted for reading philosophy and tracts on logic, etc.

[Ikonoklast]

182. The Catholic Church brought about and perpetuated the Dark Ages, you are correct.

It tried to reserve all knowledge to itself, wanting and needing an ignorant, superstitious peasantry in order to control and succeed.

The RCC made reading a large number of certain texts a crime punishable by death for good reason: knowledge was their enemy, and they knew it.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

62. What are you shitting me? The contemporary version is the mellow one. Their crimes are

well documented throughout history. The farther one goes back the more atrocities one can find. Ever heard of the inquisition or their treatment of natives throughout our continent. Then fast forward to today. Child rape cover ups that go all the way to the top are not exactly "conservative positions". Those are called crimes.

[amuse bouche]

66. Thank You

for speaking up. It is mightily appreciated

The brainwashing runs deep. I find it breathtakingly sad

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

67. As an institution the Church has had an atrocious record. I have been fortunate to encounter good

individual priests in my Jesuit school years. Hell, even they taught us about some of the horrible acts committed by the Catholic Church.

[Dawson Leery]

70. Agreed.

[amuse bouche]

75. I went to an all girls catholic school

When any became pregnant, they would disappear and never spoken of.

It was so creepy and that was only the tip of the iceberg

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

78. That's fucked up. I went to an all boys school in the late 80s in Puerto Rico. My mother

was warned that if she sent me there I would become a socialist. Which I did . There was no way she could afford the tuition. So they gave me a scholarship. The school in general promoted free thinking. Which was contrary to other Catholic high schools in the San Juan area.

[BuddhaGirl]

77. That has been my experience as well.

My teachers were mainly nuns and priests, many of whom were quite non-judgmental.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

74. BTW:

At Wed Mar 13, 2013, 08:56 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Another version
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2503392

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Broadbrush personal attack on DUers who are religious

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Mar 13, 2013, 09:05 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Ridiculous move, trying to alert this post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: If it was objectively true, it wouldn't be called Faith.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[amuse bouche]

76. The pearl clutchers

are out in droves. I've had several posts deleted. They even stalked me in the atheist group.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

80. I was either 1, 2, 3 or 4 in that one. Didn't feel like writing an explanation. 6-0 is pretty good

and rare

[amuse bouche]

86. Thanks

and I know it's rare, but not today it isn't.

[stupidicus]

42. I fit that description too

and thank them for turning me into an atheist at a very early age.

but that's it

[opiate69]

46. mark your calendar... I actually agree with you for a change..

Good post

[UTUSN]

47. R#38 & K n/t

[glowing]

55. Threatening the fear of death and afterlife seems to

have a profound effect in people.

Kind of like money, a piece of paper or Zeros behind the dollar sign in one's bank account have such a profound effect on one's life. That belief in money is even stronger than religion.

[hue]

60. Couldn't agree more! From another baptised Catholic>slated at one time by my parents for the nunnery

I'll never forgive the Catholic Church for executing Giordano Bruno and many others during their many Inquisitions and other "campaigns".
Giordano Bruno is my "patron saint"--a wonderful person!! Galileo knew Him and read His works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

Giordano Bruno (Italian pronunciation: [dʒorˈdano ˈbruno]; 1548 – February 17, 1600), (Latin: Iordanus Brunus Nolanus) born Filippo Bruno, was an Italian Dominican friar, philosopher, mathematician and astronomer. His cosmological theories went beyond the Copernican model in proposing that the Sun was essentially a star, and moreover, that the universe contained an infinite number of inhabited worlds populated by other intelligent beings.[1] After the Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy, he was burned at the stake.[2] After his death he gained considerable fame, particularly among 19th- and early 20th-century commentators who, focusing on his astronomical beliefs, regarded him as a martyr for free thought and modern scientific ideas.

Some assessments suggest that Bruno's ideas about the universe played a smaller role in his trial than his pantheist beliefs, which differed from the interpretations and scope of God held by the Catholic Church.[3][4] In addition to his cosmological writings, Bruno also wrote extensively on the art of memory, a loosely organized group of mnemonic techniques and principles. The work of Frances Yates, especially influential in anglophone scholarship, argues that Bruno was deeply influenced by Arab astrology, Neoplatonism and Renaissance Hermeticism.[5] Other studies of Bruno have focused on his qualitative approach to mathematics and his application of the spatial paradigms of geometry to language.[6]
read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

*******************
sorry but I had to add this!!

[BellaLuna]

64. Jesus, Mary and Joseph!

I agree and have a similar upbringing to yours. I started catching on in my early teens and have a general hate of organized religion in general.

I have family members who are downright scary with their defense of the Church and all that goes with it. They scare me and the fact they refuse to see the dark side of the Church disgusts me.

[Hissyspit]

73. Mother Teresa reputation "dubious:"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2287427/Was-Mother-Teresa-saintly-Researchers-spark-controversy-claiming-care-sick-dubious-handling-cash-suspicious.html

[amuse bouche]

83. Oh noes

Now you went and done it

[RagAss]

88. "From the beginning, not a thing exists." - Hui Neng

[El Supremo]

90. You should have been raised like me.

A Reformed Protestant who's ancestors rejected Roman Catholicism 500 years ago. I'm sorry for you.

[TheAmbivalante]

96. witness!

Massive scam built on a really bad novel.

I'm going to build a church framed around The Watchmen.

[blkmusclmachine]

101. Ain't Big Religion grand?

[WheelWalker]

102. Is the Pope Catholic?

I was hoping this time for a Buddhist.

[progressoid]

103. Amen!

[mitchtv]

107. Adeum qui latificat, trumad

12 years plus altarboy in Latin, I still don't eat meat on friday, and I also agree with you. I am a retired Catholic, as Peter O"Toole once said.

[JEB]

108. I was raised by

a shell shocked(Iwo Jima) protestant Irish father and a bacon eating Jewish mother. I know next to nothing about the RCC except that the Cathedrals I've peeked into are loaded with loot stolen from Native Americans. I can't help but wonder how much pain , suffering and death have been caused by the Pope's refusal to condone the use of condoms. And all the little boys subjected to sick behavior of grown men is disgusting beyond forgiving. Personally I'm not to good in hierarchies so could care less about the Pope. I expect nothing but trouble from him. Hope I'm wrong.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

110. As an Atheist I find it fascinating....

Considering the fact that the Catholic Religion is a conglomeration of old faiths of the Greeks and Romans with it's rituals and all it's like running across a living fossil. Followers of Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo and Jupiter sang songs to their gods and I wonder how many hymns they sing in the Catholic religion today are rewrites of those old tunes from thousands of years ago.

[Dawson Leery]

115. +1

[justiceischeap]

123. Let's be honest, all Christian-based religions, including catholicism, have foundations in Paganism

they (early christians) perverted paganism to gain more followers. For example, the feast of the Son of Isis was celebrated on December 25th with gifts, eating and drinking and parties. And Easter (coming up soon) was originally the celebration of the fertility Goddess Ishtar.

I myself am an atheist/agnostic (some days I agree with the spiritual aspects of paganism, some days I don't). I don't begrudge anyone their faith but Organized Religion is a racket. Within the Catholic Church, once they reach the level of Cardinal or Pope, they're not men of spirituality any longer (not to stay that those men don't have faith) but they're very powerful politicians--to think otherwise is naive.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

159. Even calling the old religions "pagan"....

They didn't call it that when it was in the mainstream.

Catholicism is really a study in the older faiths as many temples were transitioned as were dates and the gods of the time became represented by patron saints. Many Catholics pray to specific saints in the same way the ancients did specific gods.

The Church itself used to have the power to appoint Kings. Of COURSE they were political. They had the power to point to a specific guy and say, "You get to rule over this chunk of land and everyone in it and they will do as you say or we will tell them they are going to suffer in the afterlife."

[gasser85]

176. And all

The early christian manuscripts the church destroyed because they spoke to an individual relationship with god and not a through the bloated monolithic beast that Constantine succumbed to. All of the Gnostic writings and varied Gospels not canonized. What a crime. Rumor has it old Constantine remained a "Pagan" till his death. And no I'm not a believer in any organized religion.

[Zorra]

111. I was sent to a Catholic School when I was four years old,

and became a complete heretic before I turned six.

I totally relate, trumad.

The only really good thing I got out of it was a good enough education to think about and challenge what was happening to me, and come to the understanding that all authority is suspect, must be questioned, and must never be blindly obeyed.

[ReRe]

116. K&R

Non-practicing here. Married into it. Raised Protestant. The only time I darken the doors of a church anymore is when one of my nieces or nephews get married in one. When I was a kid, I was taught that Catholics and any other religion than ours was going to hell. That right there did not set right with me. They were nothing but hypocrites, and the Catholics the same. I will admit that I liked the Bible stories when I was little, but I liked all kinds of stories.

[nomorenomore08]

117. Raised/educated Catholic. Non-practicing/agnostic, don't really care either way.

nt

[moondust]

118. Ever been to Italy?

I'm sure you've seen plenty of lavish cathedrals just in the U.S. The riches on display in the cathedrals of Italy are stunning. You really get a sense of what the church is all about. All that gold did not go to the poor and hungry as I'm sure Jesus would have preferred. Catholicism impresses me as being largely about amassing wealth and power. And, of course, rigmarole.

Anecdote: My friend and I, both non-religious, went into St. Mark's in Venice to look around. Lavish. We got up by the altar along with a small crowd. A guy came over and said we could go back behind the altar and see the baby Jesus made of pure gold for a small admission fee. My tightwad friend rolled his eyes and ran for the exits. I followed, laughing my ass off.

[harmonicon]

121. I think you - as well as most other people - are looking at this thing sort of inside-out.

It's not that disagree with what you say at all, but I think it's a mistake when people blame Catholicism for the various crimes and ills it's been associated with throughout history. It's simply an accident of history that they happened to be the religion of the powerful at these times. All of those basic things still would have happened - or their equal would have happened - but there would be another religion/organization/government tied to it.

Power corrupts, you know? a.k.a, Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[trumad]

125. "accident of history"

Pretty recent as far as I am concerned.

[catbyte]

127. My mom never wore sleeveless blouses or a bathing suit in public

because of the scars she had on her shoulders and upper arms from the beatings the nuns gave her at the Catholic Indian School she was forced to attend. What on earth could a little girl do to deserve that sort of treatment? For the rest of her life, my mom would refer to popes as "Poop Paul" or "Poop John Paul". She was bitter and she had every right to be. And people wonder why only 4% of Native Americans identify as Christian.

[Walk away]

136. Just wait for the next election when this Pope sends his letter out to the bishops...

to be read to the masses. The same old "don't vote for Liberals" propaganda. Then the congregation will reach into their pockets and donate tax free dollars to perpetuate the same old garbage... Catholic charities or "the anti contraception, poverty creating, 3rd world Catholic breeding program".

[smokey nj]

138. Don't forget the election season press releases announcing which pro-choice Democrats will be denied

Communion.

[Apophis]

151. I agree.

I was a Catholic a long time ago, but then I realized the Vatican is full of crooks and unnecessary opulence. Their views on homosexuality and women disgusted me, so I quit being one.

[840high]

152. You have a right to

your opinion. I have the right to UNREC.

[libodem]

153. I admire your stance, trumad

I think it takes some intellectual rigor to form conclusions that run counter to your childhood training. Good on you for making the stretch. I'm impressed


I've had a couple friends in my life whom have had conservative parents, bigoted parents, religious parents, who made the leap and became liberals, later in life. I admire them, too. I can't imagine changing my beliefs from liberal to conservative. It has to be somewhat the same?


We may have had some differences in Meta, but on this point, I respect your abilities to really take a hard look at information that was hammered into you before the age of three as the gospel truth and punishment as strong as burning in Hell for eternity, to convince, you not to take the first steps to apostasy, and question anything put forth as God's word.

I like you better, now.

[patrice]

154. Shouldn't you have the SAME contempt for the USA? on the same grounds, that is, unless bookkeeping

quantities of human lives, like a parts inventory, is the basis of your judgement of others, in which case, yes, the Catholic Church is more evil than the USA.

[Walk away]

158. As an American who must pay taxes by law, I can only really be held ...

responsible for how I vote. Church members voluntarily support the church in it's bigotry and crimes. They could easily donate money to a legitimate charity or volunteer time with a secular organization if they want to help. I don't donate anything to the government yet I can help the poor and give my time and money without supporting an international criminal organization.

[patrice]

162. Whether you agree with them or not, Christians believe that it is Baptism that makes them Christian,

not money, so donating is not only un-necessary, it has become a corruption to which I allude frequently, practically every opportunity I get to refer to "ChurchCo" and "ChurchCoC". I am a free catholic person.

It is my love for a true church that gives me the power to criticize religion. Though others have chosen to, I personally do not choose to do that from within a given bricks and mortar organization. I do it in my imperfect effort to live the truths more catholicly, with some who have accorded the respect to one another of knowing and caring who each of us is, what we are doing, and why. That's what is important to me because it is immediate and concrete, unlike these big hypocritical and hurtful blocks of generalizations about people others don't even know, but somehow those generalizations just happen to provide certain kinds of social and other pay offs to those who inflict them on others. Meet the "new" boss, SAME as the old one.

[Walk away]

164. The only problem with you version of catholicism is that it isn't

Catholicism. At least according to Catholic dogma. The Pope is the representative of God on Earth. Basically, the rules are the rules. What you are practicing seems to be some form of reformed Christianity but unlike Judaism, the Muslim faith and Protestants, there are no recognized different types of Catholicism. It is what it is and when it deviates from the directives that come down from the Pope and his Cardinals through his Bishops and Priests then it is not Catholic.
Your "true church" may not be the bigoted, criminal or cruel one but that is the Catholic Church. I guess it's up to you if you want to start some kind of reformed Catholic Church but I doubt that your group would ever be officially recognized by the Church.

Check out the modern history of the Episcopalian church. They are a good example of what happens when one group wants to move forward while another one wants to stay entrenched. They don't just sit around stuck together in the past.

[patrice]

172. What version of anything should anyone's be but their own? wow. nt

[patrice]

173. The only problem with your version of MY version is that you are an authoritarian thinker, i.e.

Things are what "authorities" of one type or another, and often limited solely to an "authority" assigned to quantities and nothing more, say they are.

Some refer to dependence upon authoritarian "thinking" as slave mentality.

[Walk away]

180. It's isn't my opinion. It is the dogma of the church you say you belong to.

Making up an alternative catholic church does not make you a practicing Catholic. The church and it's rules come from Rome, not middle America.

[barbtries]

156. you have the cred to say it.

i'm like a bad sport or something. all this brouhaha over the pope seems absurd to me. NPR gave it almost all the way to work this morning, had to be at least 10 straight minutes of nothing but pope talk. wtf

thank you for speaking up!

[ellenfl]

160. . . . but i love the nuns on the bus! eom

[cliffordu]

161. HUGE K&R.

IIRC I read someplace that the Catholic Church was the single largest non-governmental landowner in the world.


As an aside, when I was a kid I REALLY liked those little pleated skirts the girls in the catholic school were made to wear.

Made me think maybe all girls didn't have cooties after all......

[SleeplessinSoCal]

163. Basically the "faith" Catholics talk about refers to their own church and not in a deity.

I was raised a Catholic until the age of 9. Long enough. And I now work in a Catholic church. The 2nd one in 3 years. The previous church was a very conservative Parrish. The present one is a Franciscan order. Jesus' presence is far stronger in the Franciscan order. Families come for neighborhood activities and Communion. And to some extent the music. There is little wisdom coming forward in the weekly homilies. That's what I notice changing the most. There is no intellectual heft. The heft comes from a very hard tug to the right. But the left is where Jesus is.

[Texas Lawyer]

165. As a Catholic-Atheist, I don't disagree, but propose that you consider the following context:

Voltaire was correct when he said, “If there were no God, it would have been necessary to invent him.”

People yearn for answers to unanswerable questions. It is our nature. In societies from the dawn of history, there have been myths and stories to explain the origin of humankind and our purpose in life. The invention of tales to answer such questions is inevitable. Regardless of your wish or my wish or anyone's wish for a society unbound by superstition masquerading religion, the historical path of our species suggests that the rise of religion is inevitable (maybe in the future, we will grow past religion, but that is not something that exists in today's world or in any epoch recorded in history). The very concept is both unavoidable and inherently deceitful in offering simple answers to questions that cannot be answered simply (or cannot be answered at all).

The Catholic Church is bad and has done bad things (currently and in the past), but I'm not sure that it is worse than most other churches (or worse that most other churches would be if they had the size of the Catholic Church and time to grow to such a size). the Catholic Church has things to count in its favor and flaws for which it must be accountable. I'm not sure the ratio of positive-to-negative aspects of the Catholic Church is disproportionate with other religions.

[RainDog]

168. The most important religious demographic trend in the U.S.

THE most important religious demographic trend in the U.S. is the numbers of young voters who do not identify with any religious group. - That's 1 in 5 adults.

That number, now, is greater than the number of African-American voters, to use an example of a specific demographic - and those voters are overwhelmingly liberal and moderate, politically.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/religion-america-decline-low-no-affiliation-report_n_2867626.html

...the number of people who don't consider themselves part of a religion has increased to 20 percent.

"This was not happening really for decades, until around 1990 when it started to take off," Fischer told HuffPost. "One thing striking is the trend in terms of renouncing religious affiliation you might say continues to move up at a regular pace, while there is hardly any perceptible trend in the percentage of people who express atheist or agnostic beliefs."

...perhaps the most telling numbers pertained to the breakdown of the respondents' politics: 40 percent of liberals claim they have no religion, compared to just 9 percent of conservative.

"This is a product of the involvement of the religious right in American politics and the increasing connection in Americans' minds, the minds of moderates and liberals, that religion equals conservative politics equals religion," Fischer said.

I would also say that this is the result of Robert Kennedy caring about education for people in Appalachia and making real efforts to improve the quality of life, and it's the result of the emphasis Democrats, in the Great Society era, placed upon education and the opportunity for children of all income levels to attend college.

I think this is also why Republicans are attacking public education, because it's not controlled by religious belief, and why they are attacking the idea of a liberal arts education.

AND it's why Democrats need to see to it that college remains affordable and we as a nation do not become stratified by income levels as the deciding factor in whether or not someone is able to attend college. While it now seems that a traditional liberal arts education has decreased in value in the marketplace, it has not decreased in value in the public space of democracy.

[ellie]

166. Thank you

As a Catholic I am disgusted by the Catholic Church and its enablers. It physically makes me ill. All the crimes committed in its name. All the lives taken. All the lives destroyed. I will be happy when the church is no more.

[penndragon69]

167. Religion is for IDIOTS!

[Walk away]

181. Amen!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

174. Shouldn't this read you WERE a Catholic? nt

[McCamy Taylor]

177. Amen.

I am appalled at the choice of Pope Missing.

[Blanks]

178. After I took a 'History of Western Civilizations' course...

I blame the Catholic Church for the 'dark ages'. I mean c'mon; they put Gallileo under house arrest for claiming that the earth rotated around the sun.

My grandmother was a devout catholic (and a very kind and serious person). I would never criticize her, but the Catholic Church is not a force for good in the world. IMHO