General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWould any of the Cardinals at the conclave have been progressive?
My sense is that any Cardinal ordained under the last two Popes would have have been very conservative. But I don't know much about these things.
If that's the case, then at least it's good that the Church has a new leader that pays attention to poverty and inequality. I sure hope it doesn't turn out that Francis was complicit in Argentina's past horrors.
Religion is both a great blessing and an awful curse, depending on how it's administered. Like government, I suppose.
undeterred
(34,658 posts)BainsBane
(53,029 posts)All were appointed by two conservative popes. Also Ratzinger controlled appointments for a number of years at the end of John Paul II's papacy.
There was a Curia faction and a reform faction. This guy is supposedly among the reformers. Remember that he is reactionary on cultural issues but to the left of the Democratic party on economic/ social justice. I think he will be better than the last pope. The choice of the name Francis is encouraging.
dsc
(52,155 posts)I think he got more into naming based on ideology over time. But he was a very long serving Pope and no one over 80 is allowed to vote. I think at most 1 or 2 were not orthodox on sexual teaching of the church.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)"Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence)...recounts how the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate."
iow, this is a Pope who collaborated with fascists in Argentina - the ones who threw dissidents out of airplanes and waited until pregnant dissidents had babies before they killed the woman and gave their babies to fascist sympathizers to raise as their own.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/04/argenitina-videla-bergoglio-repentance
This was written in 2011, so it's not a "new pope" article.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Hopefully it gets investigated and justice is served.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)He remained in that post through 1979, and his performance during the Dirty War has been the subject of controversy in Argentina. In 2005, shortly before the Vatican conclave that elevated Joseph Ratzinger to the papacy, Cardinal Bergoglio was formally accused by an Argentine lawyer in a lawsuit of being complicit in the militarys kidnapping of two Jesuit priests whose antigovernment views he considered dangerously unorthodox.
...After the church had denied for years any involvement with the dictatorship, he testified in 2010 that he had met secretly with Gen. Jorge Videla, the former head of the military junta, and Adm. Emilio Massera, the commander of the navy, to ask for the release of the priests. The following year, prosecutors called him to the witness stand to testify on the military juntas systematic kidnapping of children, a subject he was also accused of knowing about but failing to prevent.
but maybe he's not as bad as others...
The church authorities had spirited Father von Wernich out of the country and placed him in a parish in Chile under a false name, but he was eventually brought back to Argentina and put on trial. In 2007, he was found guilty on seven counts of complicity in homicide, more than 40 counts of kidnapping and more than 30 of torture, and was sentenced to life imprisonment.
Iow, he is not out of the liberation theology tradition in Latin America.
After he stepped down as archbishop, the church refuted what Argentina's former dictator, General Videla, said was complicity on the part of the church with the govt's activities. (Videla admitted, in a biography, that the military dictatorship had killed about 8000 people - the figure is assumed to be more like 30,000. Videla also admitted that the military junta took babies that had been born to women who were political prisoners, but didn't admit to what the Grandmothers and journalists and others who testified to the Truth Commission claimed - that these mothers were then thrown into the Atlantic Ocean while still alive, and their babies were given to good fascists to raise.
However, the existence of this tactic of throwing dissidents into the ocean became known because bodies were washing up on shore. So, those who carried out this work split open people's bowels so they would sink instead of float ashore.
I would hope the current Pope knew nothing about this. Nevertheless, he supported the junta rather the people in Argentina.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Certainly troubling, though.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)That he hid two priests from the commission.
There are also reports that he worked behind the scenes to get the two priests freed. I'm not sure what to believe as of now.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)Here's what the Guardian had to say in 2011 -
What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentinian hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church's collaboration and in these crimes. The extent of the church's complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence). He recounts how the Argentinian navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate. The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio's name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment.
Now, you may take that to mean only those two priests. However, those two priests were not the only political prisoners of the regime and they were found, drugged, months after they disappeared - they disappeared one week after Bergoglio had dismissed them from the church because of their association with liberation theology.
Cardinal Bergoglio has plenty of time to be measured for a suit of sackcloth perhaps tailored in a suitable clerical grey to be worn when the church authorities are called into the witness box by the investigating judge in the Angelelli case. Ashes will be readily available if the records of the Argentinian bishops' many disingenuous and outrightly mendacious statements about Videla and Angelelli are burned.
This is a separate incident.
This compares with the treatment of a bishop who actively participated in torture and murder during the junta.
From the NYT -
The church authorities had spirited Father von Wernich out of the country and placed him in a parish in Chile under a false name, but he was eventually brought back to Argentina and put on trial. In 2007, he was found guilty on seven counts of complicity in homicide, more than 40 counts of kidnapping and more than 30 of torture, and was sentenced to life imprisonment.
Father von Wernich was allowed to continue to celebrate Mass in prison, and in 2010, a church official said that at the appropriate time, von Wernichs situation will have to be resolved in accordance with canonical law. But Cardinal Bergoglio never issued a formal apology on behalf of the church, or commented directly on the case, and during his tenure the bishops conference was similarly silent.
ONLY AFTER Bergoglio left his position did the bishop's conference complain that the junta said they had participated in maintaining its power - but von Wernich most certainly did AND he was taken out of the country by members of the church hierarchy in order to shield him from prosecution for MURDER AND TORTURE.
So, you think Bergoglio, the archbishop, knew nothing about this, had no say in how the priest was treated? The treatment of the leftist vs. the fascist faction seems to indicate where priorities came down.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Everything is relative however. To my wingnut friends, Obama is a communist.