I take off my hat when I talk to women. It's sexist.

[Recursion]

And, yes, that means I wear hats in public. I also have facial hair and drink PBR; send complaints about hipsters to /dev/null.

This is sexist of me. Very few people care. Being sexist doesn't mean I'm a bad person, it means I'm playing a role that has been laid out that reinforces patriarchal stereotypes. The stereotype in question is that women are holy beings who deserve to be treated by men like enlisted people treat a military officer (the whole thing comes from knights raising their visors so that a woman could see who they were and that they could be trusted; its a cognate of the military salute which came from the same thing).

It's a habit I was taught as a child, and it's stuck. These things are hard (but not impossible) to un-learn, and that is the issue, and that's why pointing out that it's sexist is a kindness, not an attack.

Should I stop? Probably. But a habit that (as far as I can tell) doesn't bother anybody and would take rewiring a lot of muscle memory to relearn
is low on my list of priorities. And, ultimately, it is my hat. But I also shouldn't bristle when somebody points out it's sexist: it is. It's a role I'm playing and that I am aware of and choose not to take the time and effort to stop playing.

[Gwynann]

1. My grampa did the same thing...

He got around it by saying it helped him hear better

[Lionessa]

2. As I mentioned in the other thread. I wear a fedora and I solve the problem

by removing it and showing the same level of respect to all genders, not just women, but of course I am a woman and one would be hard pressed to peg a woman removing her hat for a woman as being sexist.

[Recursion]

3. But I don't remove it for men, except for very old men

Or, that is to say, I don't have an ingrained habit of doing so; when I think about it, I might. But who has time to think about their hat in this world today?

[Lionessa]

5. I guess I do. But I've always been too worried about how I treat others, or

so I'm told by people who find my propensity and focus for humoring strangers annoying.

[RC]

7. Are you are forgetting this is DU?

but of course I am a woman and one would be hard pressed to peg a woman removing her hat for a woman as being sexist.

You just gotta know there is at least one someone somewhere, around here that will think so.

[Lionessa]

9. Oh my, you are of course right, but fortunately there are no doors to hold here, and

no one can see my hat, on or off, so, I'm safe till this all requires video.

[upaloopa]

4. Well I think anything we do or say to a woman

would be taken as sexism by someone.

We can't be sure of what falls under the label. Some things are obvious but others are not.

[Lionessa]

6. IMO, if what is done is done with respect and humor, and a woman is offended,

then it's on her, not the door holder or the hat remover.

[Recursion]

8. Let's grant that. Why take recognition of systemic sexism personally?

What you're describing is the recognition of systemic sexism. It's not about you; it's not a claim that you are a bad person. It's pointing out that the roles we have learned are in some ways harmful.

[upaloopa]

28. I have no argument with that.

I'm pointing out that it is hard from my perspective to know what is and what isn't.
I've been in the open door thing in college in the late 70's.
We decided that the first to the door opens it and holds it for the other person.
If I do something and someone says hey your being a sexist then I won't do it anymore.
What was once concidered a curtesy is now an act of sexism. I can live with that.

[bluesbassman]

10. I open and hold doors open for women.

I also hold doors open for other men. Not sexist, just common courtesy. Something that seems to be slowly disappearing in our culture from my POV.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

16. I always let women go first in the elevator

and sometimes have to wait till the next one. I also hold open doors. I don't see it as a bad thing but then I'm 63. No one has ever reproached me and in fact women usually smile and thank me for my courtesy. I guess I can't change at my age. Expressing respect for womankind whatever their age, appearance, or relationship to me is something ingrained. I honor women in the abstract and it doesn't depend on how they act or look.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. Me too. Just in case the doors have opened onto an empty elevator shaft.

Better safe than sorry, that's my motto.

It's a joke, son! A joke!

[bluesbassman]

52. Bad lumberjack_jeff!

No soup for you!

[freshwest]

29. That's my view.

[pacalo]

41. I always smile & say thank you because I do interpret it as common courtesy.

Both men & women do it as a courtesy.

[MineralMan]

11. Sadly, hat-wearing has gone out of fashion.

That eliminates the very nice etiquette of hattery. I've thought of taking up the wearing of hats, just so I could tip my hat to passers-by.

That's what comes from having a collection of 19th century etiquette books. I know how to behave in a society that is long gone now. Perhaps I'll buy a fedora one day soon, just to have a hat to tip and confuse people. I do enjoy confusing people - in a polite way, of course.

[geek tragedy]

14. But it also means one less thing to spend money on.

Actually, more than that when one considers hat racks, hat maintenance, etc.

[Recursion]

19. It's shameful, really. I have a hat block I keep it on, a dedicated lint brush...

... not to mention a rotating supply of cockades.

[HiPointDem]

23. baseball caps...

[MineralMan]

24. But, you see, one doesn't do that hat cleaning, etc.,

oneself. Such things provide jobs for others. And consider all the unemployed hatmakers. :tic:

[Recursion]

26. Not to mention their well-known mental health problems

[MineralMan]

32. Very true, but modern felting may not have the same hazards.

When I was in Turkey, I bought a felt cloak like the ones worn by rural Turkish shepherds. I rolled it up and brought it back to the US with me when my tour of duty was up. Sadly, the nice man at Customs told me that the felt it was made of was not allowed to enter the United States. Something about the risk of anthrax. So, I left it with him and went on my way.

[randome]

38. You gave anthrax to a stranger? How dare you!

[MineralMan]

42. The nice customs man insisted that I leave it with him.

What was I to do but comply with his kind request?

[snappyturtle]

49. Just posted on your "etiquette' OP and here I am with another tale....true though.

Texas takes a lot of grief here at DU. I am a transplant here in the Hill Country of Texas, west of Austin and north of San Antonio and I can say that one of the things that inures me to this community are small gestures like tipping of or a nod from a cowboy hat! Love it when the guys at the feed store tip those gorgeous hats. It's so respectful to receive a nod like that. Door holding is very common too....I hold doors too although I'm female. Help with groceries, feed bags, holding doors and drive through liquor barns....really(!), see Texas is polite....in my eyes.

[MineralMan]

55. Thanks for that report!

[snooper2]

12. I'm stuck to Lindsey Stirling vids on youtube now...

[Apophis]

13. She has amazing talent.

I love her Zelda and Skyrim songs.

[ismnotwasm]

15. My husband and I

Are going to have a talk about his 'constant' baseball caps and I'm blaming you.

[geek tragedy]

18. Most common thing said after a man complies with a request

to remove his baseball cap:

"Never mind, please put it back on."

Hat hair can be a gnarly thing.

[bike man]

56. Please say that he wears it with the bill forward, not sideways or in the back.

[Recursion]

62. I've searched everywhere for the caps with the rear-facing bills

I can never figure out where people buy them.

[randome]

65. Try searching Elgoog.

[ismnotwasm]

63. Of course

He's a bearded hippy looking guy, my hunnybunny.

He has a collection of caps, he loves them.

[bettyellen]

17. you wore hats as a kid and survived to tell the tale? Actually, it is sad how many little gestures

of respect have been thrown out the window. When we went to bury my Dad, and started the procession of cars I remember seeing one old gentleman stop in his tracks, remove his hat and look down till we passed. I was deeply touched. Something about acknowledging human frailty, and our shared fate I guess. It's nice when people don't live in a bubble.

[Recursion]

22. I still do that for funeral processions, and I will continue to until my own procession

That's a habit I'm very sad to see disappearing.

[bettyellen]

30. usually hatless, but yes, I stop and nod when I see them go by. I know how it feels that the

whole world is different due to the absence of one. And how callous it can feel when the world keeps buzzing by as if nothing happened.

[Recursion]

33. W. H. Auden described that feeling best

Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message He Is Dead,
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.

He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last for ever: I was wrong.

The stars are not wanted now: put out every one;
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
For nothing now can ever come to any good.

[bettyellen]

35. Lovely. Thank you for that.

[cali]

70. I wore white gloves and a hat when I was a little girl and we

went from the CT suburbs to NY. I also went to dancing school and learned how to curtsy properly as well as how to fox trot.

LOL. Just looked it up. still operating and it looks like things haven't changed much:

Ballroom Dance Instruction:

In our program, students will really learn to dance and carry this valuable skill with them throughout their lifetime. Students will learn a variety of dances including the waltz, fox trot, cha-cha, salsa, rumba, hip-hop, disco, jitterbug, swing, Western and contemporary line dancing, and the Mexican hat dance.



Social Etiquette and the Practice of Good Manners:
• Introducing Yourself and Others in a Receiving Line
• Proper Handshakes and Eye Contact
• Remembering Names
• Appropriate Dress and Correct Sitting Positions
• Thanking Your Host for a Nice Evening
• Treating Fellow Students with Consideration & Respect


Class Attire:
Girls: Party dresses or a blouse and skirt, white gloves, dress shoes (no high heels or platform shoes).
Boys: Dark suit or sports jacket, dress shirt and tie, dark shoes and socks (no sneakers).

[bettyellen]

71. I had that get up for Easter, used to love wearing little party dresses to play in the Bronx streets

until a neighbor kid asked, didn't I have any blue jeans or sneakers? I did not!
My Mom was an old school immigrant, so we had the geeky dress old school while you live in poverty thing down pat.

[Sissyk]

73. That's how I was raised.

Where I'm from (Tn), cars still pull over on the shoulder of the road until the police led funeral procession has passed by.

[NCTraveler]

20. K&R

K&R because I like this sentence.

"It's a habit I was taught as a child, and it's stuck. These things are hard (but not impossible) to un-learn, and that is the issue, and that's why pointing out that it's sexist is a kindness, not an attack."

[Quantess]

21. Is "hat" code for a condom?

Just kidding. A silly OP deserves a silly post.

[backtoblue]

25. I don't wear hats and haven't had alot of men take them off randomly for me.

But, I do try to hold doors open for everyone. Almost every time a man will take the door and make me come through first.

Sometimes that frustrates me.

Sometimes it doesn't.

I think, for me, it depends on how the man looks at me or acts when he does it. If his eyes travel up and down my body, I am offended at the gesture. If his eyes are direct and he smiles politely, I am thankful for the gesture. It would be the same if a woman were to hold a door for me, but to be honest - that doesn't happen alot, though I try do hold it for them as well.


thank you for your honesty recursion.

[Rex]

27. I hold the door because humans are weak

and after being stuck in a rotary door apparatus for 6 hours - I emerged as Door Man. I am the strongest and wisest door holder ever, even longer even than King Doorknob.

This one time, I fought Triangle Man...

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. Heh. +1

Don't mess with triangle man.

[Rex]

45. What do you say to a group of people that brawl (almost) over the check

at a restaurant? Each one demanding they are going to pay the bill, someone else leave a tip. Who is to blame for this part of societies shortcomings? Why can't I have more friends like this?

[MineralMan]

48. I always say to the person offering to pay for the meal,

"By all means. I'm very grateful for your generosity."

Mind you, I've only had to do that once...

[Major Nikon]

76. The door dilemma is a pretty easy one to solve

What you do is hold the door open well before the woman gets there. Right before she gets there you close it and yell, "Smash the Patriarchy!"

[randome]

31. I take off my pants when I talk to women.

You wouldn't believe the interesting experiences I've had!

[Vinnie From Indy]

34. I hate pork rinds!

Cheers!

[randome]

44. No, you don't.

[Prism]

36. Chivalry is expandable

My mom drilled me as a child about how to treat women. Doors, elevators, standing at tables, hats off, etc. For a long time, I followed her rules for women. Then I got a little older and just started doing it for everyone. No fuss, no muss. Being polite costs nothing.

Courtesy feels like it's vanishing over time. People are actually startled by it sometimes. But when you have one of those days when you can do lots of courteous things, the whole texture of the day feels better.

[Matariki]

57. That's fantastic - if those gestures are polite, then do them for everyone.

[JustAnotherGen]

37. I wouldn't be offended by it

And I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

I bet - that if you were in a position to - you would NOT pay a woman less JUST because she was a woman. Right? And I'm jumping to that POSITIVE conclusion because in your own way - you are 'bringing your respect'. Something 'chivalrous' is just that. Not everything can ALWAYS be about gender roles. At some point - we all have to breathe.

[Moonwalk]

40. I don't think men or women take offense as much as they did, but you need to remember why...

...they took offense when they did. I hear all kinds of stories about men who were hurt that their courtesy to open doors for a women where met with offense. But let's remember, it used to be that all these gestures were "TOKEN" gestures.

What that means is that the woman got the door opened, the chair pulled back, the hat removed...but she didn't get any of the REAL respect. She didn't get the chance at the good paying job even if she was equal or better to a man at it. She didn't get her intellect respected--just "don't worry you're pretty head, little lady. Leave that to the men." She didn't get a chance to advance, earn, achieve, be who she wanted to be.

When a person of any group is faced with such frustration, given "tokens" of respect in lieu of real respect, they're likely to view the token gestures with scorn. Why should the woman be grateful to the man for opening an actual door, when men are shutting employment doors in her face and saying she can't be who/what she wants to be?

GRANTED, I don't think women should have--should ever--take their frustration over such on any random guy who has nothing to do with the man/men frustrating or dismissing her. Courtesy, to me, is courtesy, and I'm glad when men and women show it to each other. I certainly will open doors and offer seats to those older than me, men and women--and pregnant women. This is courtesy. And I think the most important thing is to know when it's courtesy rather than a token gesture handed out instead of the real thing.

Token gestures should never be accepted. Real courtesy should.

[HiPointDem]

46. excellent post.

i think we can't usually tell what's in people's hearts so in matters like this we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

[klook]

51. Wise perspective - thanks.

"Token gestures should never be accepted. Real courtesy should."

[Matariki]

54. Great post Moonwalk.

[HockeyMom]

47. Who wears hats today?

Unless it is below FREEZING and SNOWING? Or, in Florida I will wear a SOMBRERO when it's 90+ degrees and I have to be out in the sun.

Why take your hat off in either of these situations for any human? Your hat is a protection against weather.

[The Straight Story]

50. I still wear a hat (see my avatar) in honor of my grandfather

He wore them all time as did most men in his day back where he lived.

[Recursion]

58. I also wax my moustache, play croquet, and smoke a pipe, if that helps the image

I didn't say that makes the image better, but it might make it a little clearer. Think tweed in winter, linen in summer.

[HockeyMom]

68. As a 64 year old woman,

you DON't need to take off your hat, for whatever reason you wear it, for me. I can count on one hand the number of times any man has in over half a century.

[Matariki]

53. This is interesting. I find that gesture kind of charming.

Not the I'd expect it, but if someone did it around me I'd see it as a kind of charming idiosyncrasy of the person doing it. Now on the other hand if that person treated me as if I were weak or incompetent or somehow 'lesser than' simply because of my gender, THAT I would find sexist.

I like that the opening doors thing has evolved to whoever arrives at the door first holds it opened for their companion. Politeness is nice.

[klook]

59. You need a self-tipping hat.

This will remove your responsibility as the agent of the hat-tipping.

James Boyle of Spokane, Washington, in 1895, came up with the “saluting device,” which is a hat that tips itself. As you can see from the below diagram, it was patented in March 1896.

Boyle described it as a "novel device for automatically effecting polite salutations by the elevation and rotation of the hat on the head of the saluting party when said person bows to the person or persons saluted, the actuation of the hat being produced by mechanism therein and without the use of the hands in any manner."
- http://dreampunk.me/blog/a-tip-of-the-hat-to-you/

[Recursion]

61. For every problem, there is an engineering solution (nt)

[bike man]

60. Sexist it may be today, but I think it is nice. nt

[southernyankeebelle]

64. Well I think it's nice that you still do it. I don't see it as a sexist thing. There is a thing

that really bugs me today. I wish guys would take their hats off when entering a building. I've seen guys wear hats in a church and that really bothers me. I know it is old fashioned. I remember my wonderful, wonderful grandfather who never raised his voice in angry was such a polite man around women. He would take his hat off when talking to a woman and he never wore a hate inside a building. He pulled a chair out for a woman and always openned the door for a lady. That was in his DNA. I see nothing wrong with that. I'm 65 now and when someone still does that today I make it a point in thanking the person. I don't care how people think its sexist. It may be but I like it anyway and if a man wants to do it then he should be allowed.

[Recursion]

66. After 7 years in the Marines, it would take staples to keep a hat on my head indoors

I doubt that instinct will ever fade.

[trixie]

67. I think

You're confusing manners with sexism.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

69. You should be ashamed of yourself and ask forgiveness of everyone who has read this.

I'm referring to your Pabst habit, of course. Find an IPA you can live with. The humanity!

[Flyboy_451]

75. I prefer a nice dark lager...

Or a good stout. I wear a hat (4" brim drover style), tip said hat to ladies, hold open doors for anyone that arrives as I do (male or female) remove it while indoors, use words like "sir" and "ma'am".

I agree with other posters, it's just (un)common courtesy. Am I old fashioned? Probably. I think small gestures like this actually have meaning when done because you want to, rather than feel you have to. My mother used to tell me I was born 100 years too late. I prefer to think of it as acting according to standards that should be the norm. But, hey, what do I know? I'm just a used up old cowboy/cop that wishes other people practiced a little courtesy with each other.

JW

[TlalocW]

72. Yeah? Well, when I walk with a woman on a sidewalk

I make sure I'm always on the outside. How 'bout that?

I think the original reasoning behind it is so the woman can window-shop, and another reason that eventually evolved was to protect her from cars splashing water or people on motorcycles, etc. grabbing purses.

TlalocW

[alarimer]

74. Okay, I don't get the whole hat thing

Why is it considered courteous to remove a hat? Indoors, outdoors, when you encounter someone. I don't get it at all and I am frankly glad that all that bullshit is gone, for the most part. Too many damn rules to remember.

I would probably just think you were weird.