Catholics are as much to blame for clergy abuse as you are to blame for the WARS

[Cronus Protagonist]

We're all damn close to helpless against the monsters who abuse any and every system.

[Kalidurga]

1. Close but here is where the argument fails.

We don't get to decide where we are born. But, we can decide whether or not we go to church. We can decide which denomination of church to go to if we decide we are going to go to a church.

[DerekG]

3. It's not quite the same, but citizens can resist

We can vote third-party. Or protest in the streets. Or organize economic boycotts.

[Kalidurga]

4. Yes this is true, I have been to many protests

signed many petitions, voted third party once, and I am still actively boycotting. I believe if I had been Catholic I would have boycotted my church.

[DerekG]

12. Oh, I would have left the Church long ago had I been a member

It's just that someday, our grandchildren are probably going to ask why we weren't more confrontational with our government (just as I would ask Catholics why they continue to support an institution that is profoundly corrupt).

We are all living in the shadow of organized evil.

[Kalidurga]

16. I think most people aren't confrontational simply because they don't have time...

If you are poor it takes a lot of energy just to stay alive. Although I did go to protests anyway, because I could. But, I can see how others might not be able to in a similar situation. Then there is the problem of actually knowing what is going on, it's not like we have a media that keeps us informed. My children will never ask me why I wasn't more confrontational, they are more likely to ask why I was as confrontational as I was.

[lame54]

121. Third Party?...

Around here Nader is less popular than the pope

[onehandle]

5. So a Catholic child is guilty for the sins of where their parents take them to church?

Talk about fail.

Oh, and please give up your adult American citizenship. Unless you support unchecked war.

[Kalidurga]

7. no.

[Katashi_itto]

93. +1000 As someone who was raised Catholic, most of the shumcks on DU don't know what they are

complaining about. Except it's something they can feel rightous about.

That there was an organized silence about all this till it finally broke, that your average churchgoer was pretty much in the dark about all that was going on.

Even then it was hard to believe that such evil could be ladled out by the church. Our Priest is doing what??? A collective disbelief that someone so trusted could perpetuate such crimes?

Only now is the pendulum is really starting to swing against the church, but this took decades.


I am growing in contempt about the behavior displayed on DU.

[Egalitarian Thug]

100. Every child is guilty at birth according to them. n/t

[backscatter712]

9. Specifically, we can decide whether and how much money to put in those collection plates.

Unlike taxes, church donations are voluntary. If you're putting money into the coffers of the Roman Catholic Church, no offense, but you're enabling.

[Kalidurga]

10. Sounds like a point in a rant to my youngest daughter

I had just read about the latest scandal and the next day we walk by a Catholic day care or something and off I went...

[HiPointDem]

22. and if you pay your taxes, you're supporting droning. The difference is that when you put $

into your catholic collection plates, what you're mostly supporting is your local church. Which you are a member of & have input into.

[JDPriestly]

33. The law requires that you pay your taxes.

No law requires that you support the Catholic hierarchy. In fact, there are lots of religions that are not do not have as corrupt a hierarchy as the Catholic Church. There are all kinds of alternatives.

[HiPointDem]

44. as i said before, what you put in the collection plate in a local church goes mostly to support the

local church.

and i don't see that law matters when you think something is corrupt.

and i don't see that you have any way of knowing that the catholic hierarchy is uniquely corrupt. which religions are these that have less corrupt hierarchies?

[JDPriestly]

133. Some religions really don't have hierarchies.

Haven't you heard the joke about Unitarians and committees?

Here you go:

How many Unitarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

It Takes 300:

12 to sit on the board which appoints the nominating and personnel committee.
5 to sit on the the nominating and personnel committee which appoints the House committee.
8 to sit on the house committee which appoints the light bulb changing committee.
4 to sit on the light bulb-changing committee which chooses who will screw in the light bulb. 3 of those 4 then give their own opinion of “screwing in methods” while the one actually does the installation.
After completion it takes 100 individuals to complain about the method of installation, another 177 to debate the ecological impact of using the light bulb at all, and at least one to insist that back in her day the lit chalice was quite enough.

How many Unitarian Universalists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

We choose not to make a statement either in favor of or against the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey you have found that light bulbs work for you, that is fine. You are invited to write a poem or compose a modern dance about your light bulb. During next Sunday’s service, we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, three-way, long-life and tinted; all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence.

http://commonplacebook.com/jokes/light-bulb-jokes/how-many-unitarians-does-it-take/

There is another response, but it is a bit risque and, if another mother an I succeeded in our efforts, no longer possible in our church youth camp.

[quakerboy]

135. Coersion

Its like asking whats the difference between giving money to a mugger or a beggar, Cause either way they will just use it to get drunk.

If you do not pay tithe to the church, they may or may not notice, and you may or may not feel guilt

If you do not pay your taxes, you may lose your home, and your personal freedom, and various other basic rights and privileges.

That's the difference.

[limpyhobbler]

24. Maybe it's like donating to Obama so he can sell weapons to Bahrain to shoot labor organizers.

If you donate money to Obama or Hillary, you are enabling the murder of labor organizers in Colombia.

But still some people do it.

[Cronus Protagonist]

15. Well, perhaps it's not a perfect metaphor or comparison

But it is a simile.

[Kalidurga]

19. No it's not perfect

But, it's not a complete fail either as children don't chose what religion they are born into. But, we do have a lot more choice in religion than in what nationality we are.

[Drunken Irishman]

23. Here's where your argument fails...

Most Catholics are born into the religion - being baptized at birth. I was. I didn't choose to be a Catholic. I was born into the religion.

I'm sure you'll come back and tell me, "but you still choose to be a Catholic!"

Yeah, and so what? You still choose to be American. You were born here - but that doesn't mean there is some gravitational pull forcing you to stay. You choose, for whatever reason, to remain American.

It's the exact same! You can decide at any moment to renounce your citizenship and leave this country. Being born here is no excuse for staying here. You choose to stay - just as millions of Catholics choose to stay in their faith, even though there are things they don't like about it.

[patrice]

86. +1

[muriel_volestrangler]

105. No; you can't just arrive in another country and say "I live here now"

Most Americans have only American citizenship; it's the only country where they have a right to live. To say where someone lives, which involves how they make a living, and where their family are, is 'exactly the same' as the decision on which church to worship in, or which hierarchy to follow, is ridiculous. There's a good similarity between someone's politics and their religion - you pick up some politics from your parents, but you have to take responsibility for your politics as an adult.

If there were more Catholics actually protesting about the hierarchy, it wouldn't look so bad; but, really, the protests come from those who leave the church, not those who remain.

[Gore1FL]

108. You can choose to have no religion

One cannot do that with a country.

No one was born with a belief. Born with a label of belief, perhaps. Born into an environment that tortured with the dogma, perhaps.

[pnwmom]

25. Catholics don't decide to get baptized -- but they are free to leave.

Americans are also free to become ex-pats.

[Drunken Irishman]

34. Thank you!

I'm surprised at how many people here seem to forget you can leave America any time you want.

[BainsBane]

41. You mean you're not willing to give up the privilege

of being an American and subject yourself to the poverty the rest of the world lives in. Whereas others should convert because you don't like their religion. That's exactly what the English said during the centuries they occupied Ireland. It was also the view of the Klan who burned crosses on the lawns of Catholics.

Another difference is that we financially contribute to wars through taxes whereas Catholics don't contribute to the Vatican. They contribute on a volunteer basis only to their local parishes and charitable services for the poor. Nor is their way of life made privileged by the actions of the church as our lives are by the interventions of our government abroad to secure oil and other commodities.

[Catherina]

56. +199,999 n/t

[MattSh]

94. Subject yourself to the poverty the rest of the world lives in?

Oh please!!!

Large parts of the rest of the world are getting along just fine. We don't need your pity.

[BainsBane]

124. Try to follow the point

And I did not express pity. You're in Europe. If you don't recognize a difference between your opportunities and life in the Global South, where most of the world's population resides, that's your problem. Nice try at hijacking the thread.

[Bluenorthwest]

110. Catholics do in fact contribute to the 'Holy See' each year on the Sunday nearest June 29

Commonly called 'Peter's Pence' the various parishes donate about 100 million dollars each year specifically to support the Vatican. 28% or so of the total comes from the US.
That 100 million is of course a fraction of what the Vatican spends each year, but to say they don't donate to the Vatican is simply incorrect.
The amount of money in the Catholic Charities budget that comes from churches in parish is approximately 3%. The amount in Catholic Charities budget that comes from the US government, 65%. Only 35% comes from the Church in any form, local, central, most of the money they spend comes from the American People.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter%27s_Pence

[Lionessa]

43. +++++++++ Exactly.

[BlueMTexpat]

95. There are a LOT more good and decent Catholics than there are bad apples.

But the bad apples - like the RW wingnut corporatist pod people - happen to be very powerful or protected by those who are powerful.

I am no longer a practicing Catholic - and haven't been for almost 50 years.

But it is simply smug, arrogant and WRONG to tar everyone with the same brush. It truly is not worthy of a DU member. Please think about what you are saying.

[Kalidurga]

102. Is there something I said that is not true?

And I don't get this brush thing. I haven't painted anyone with anything. I simply said a simple fact it is easier at least in the US to leave a church than it is to leave this country. That is a fact.

[sabrina 1]

111. We don't have to stay in the place we were born. Millions of people have left

their countries when they did not like their government's actions.

But most generally choose to stay and try to change what they believe is wrong.

[On the Road]

118. You Do, However, Decide Where to Live

If you decide to remain an American citizen, doesn't that implicate you in the wars as much as a Catholic who doesn't leave the church?

Protestant denominations are relatively fungible -- you can move to the church down the street for any reason and it's all good. Catholicism is a bit different -- the church is part of the belief structure. You don't leave the church without abandoning your faith. Everyone knows the church has at various times been guilty of enormous crimes. (To extend the analogy, you know the same about this country.) No Catholic thinks their membership has any bearing on that.

I agree with the OP. For most Catholics, priest molestation is just as remote as it is to you and me. The criticism of Catholics who do not leave the church is the result of demagoguery and ignorance.

[Fumesucker]

2. Living without government is basically impossible, Somalia aside

And yet many people even in the USA live without religion.

That's the difference in the situations.

One is more or less mandatory, the other purely optional, you are not helpless to stop supporting something you can walk away from just by stopping going there.

I've stayed out of the Catholic bashing, search my posts, but the analogy between government and religion is not a very good one.

[Drunken Irishman]

32. You can certainly pick your government...

It absolutely is a good analogy. Nothing keeps you in America. You don't have to stay here. You choose to stay here for many reasons that aren't dissimilar to why Catholics remain in the Church.

It is absolutely not mandatory living in America. It's a choice. You can move. Millions do it every year. They get up, and they leave this country.

[Fumesucker]

73. But anywhere you can go will have a government, some government.

And all governments are corrupt to a greater or lesser extent.

Again, it's possible to leave religion entirely, period.

It is not really possible to leave government entirely unless you wish to bring Somalia into the conversation.

[MellowDem]

6. Catholics support and validate the Catholic Church...

by continuing to be members. There's no way around that. And as others have pointed out, you don't get to choose where you are born, you do get to choose your religion or lack thereof (obviously, most people were indoctrinated as children, but still, you can leave as an adult).

It's more akin to being a moderate member of the Republican Party, complaining about the leadership but still voting and giving money to the Party. The only difference being that there are a whole lot more choices for you in terms of religions you can choose from than political parties, ones that actually fit one's value system.

[Drunken Irishman]

31. Then you supported and validated Bush.

There's no way around that. You do know you can leave America as an adult? LOL

Seriously. The disconnect here at DU is amazing. It's like some of you people believe there is this gigantic wall blocking you from leaving America. EVERY SINGLE ADULT AMERICAN CHOOSES TO LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY. Don't spit out this bullshit that you were born here when you don't give the same benefit to those who were born into the Catholic faith.

Let's be balanced here and stop with the fucking bullshit. If you believe Catholics validate pedophilia, then you validate torture and murder and everything that happened in your name under past presidents. Don't pretend there is a difference here. You choose to remain American, despite what has been done in your name, by your leaders. You can say you've protested, you can say you didn't vote for Bush or Reagan ... guess what? Many of us protest our Church too. And none of us voted for the Pope.

Give me a break.

[MellowDem]

48. Yes, all Americans do, however indirectly

But leaving the Catholic Church is a whole lot easier than leaving a country, and guess what, you still would be under some other form of government. You can choose to leave religion completely if you'd like, you can't with governments, and all governments do bad things obviously, but you don't get to choose to live in anarchy.

Comparing leaving a church with leaving a country is a terrible analogy. Quite a few people don't have the resources to leave the country, even if they wanted to. The barrier to exiting the country is several hundred times greater than leaving a church.

And yes, as an American, I do indeed help validate and empower my government, however indirectly, though as I said before, I have far less of a choice in the matter than with religion, and the barriers are far greater.

It's the ease with which one can come and go with religion that makes it less justifiable to remain a member of one that you fundamentally disagree with. At the very least, it's pretty intellctually dishonest.

And at least with the US government I can vote against certain policies. Most religions don't even give you that.

[HiPointDem]

58. droning is the official policy of the US government. pedophilia is not the official policy of the

catholic church. membership in the catholic church is not a vote for pedophilia, nor are any but a small minority of catholic priests pedophiles.

you cannot vote against droning. you don't get a vote about who we go to war with. you don't get a vote about our torture policies or covert operations. etc.

[MellowDem]

64. True, there are many things I can't vote against...

and I never said membership equals a vote for something. But it does validate and empower the institution. The Catholic Church (and many other religions) have official positions that are in direct contradiction to progressive values. There are religions out there that have few or no offical positions, or whose positions are more in line with progressive values.

It's very easy to leave a religion in the US, not so to leave a country. If I asked a person why they just don't leave the US if they disagree with the drone policy for example, I would get some very substantive answers, like I can't afford it, my loved ones are here, nowhere else will take me, etc. etc. If I ask a person why they don't just leave a religion that they themselves say they disagree with, or don't even believe the fundamental beliefs of, I get far less substantive reasons.

[HiPointDem]

68. and catholics violate those official policies en masse. and catholics are more liberal

than the general US population.

so how are they empowering the institution? i'd say they are contributing to its liberalization.

[MellowDem]

125. They can't contribute to its liberalization...

in any substantive way. There are no votes, women are completely excluded, the heirarchy is composed of those who must submit to conservative beliefs or be excommunicated, and the membership, especially those who actively participate and have the most influence, is overwhelmingly socially conservative worldwide.

The only thing that will contribute to its liberization is a mass exodus from the church, where the church must either change or die. That's always been the case. If liberals are cool with their local parish and keep supporting the Catholic Church, nothing will change overall, that's fine and dandy by the Catholic Church heirarchy, keep the money and membership up and don't rock the boat. The Catholic Church is rapidly expanding in the developing world, that is where there membership really is, and many of these places are incredibly conservative when it comes to homosexuality and misogyny, so the Catholic Church has no incentive to change. Kinda like the Episcopalian Church eventually just had to split from the Anglican Church. There was no way the small amount of liberal Anglicans were going to be able to change the overall policy of a church whose membership was overwhelmingly conservative on a worldwide scale.

The Catholic heirarchy is set up so there is no change.

[napoleon_in_rags]

8. Its encumbent upon us to create a system of healthy questioning and safety.

At one point I saw some videos on how sexual predators operate, and yes, they will always seek out situations where their integrity is beyond question to commit their crimes. If that means exploiting the faith of a group of people, they will do whatever it takes to do that.

From a theological perspective, that means embracing the fact that there is no substitute here on earth walking around for the man upstairs. Anybody is questionable. If it means sacrificing worldly power to ensure the safety of the people in a faith group, than so be it. Anybody can screw up, anybody can sin. The sooner that fact is widely embraced, the safer a lot of people will be, and (IMHO) the more improved everybody's faith will be. Its good to remember why Saint Peter, the original founder of the church had himself crucified upside down: To send the message there are no substitutes here on earth. A belief which blocks out all the predators, who's ultimate fantasy is play the role of God to a victim.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

11. I do hope that jury members and hosts think on what Skinner posted in ATA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259670#post1

[Deep13]

13. Tithing is voluntary. nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

17. I know a few Catholics - none of them tithe

In fact, I've never met a single person in my entire life who tithes, other than a few mormie neighbors at one apartment they forced me out of, and in that case, I'm guessing really, but I suppose they did.

Perhaps tithing is less mandatory than you think.

[Deep13]

30. That's my point.

Taxes are mandatory, tithing or donating at all is voluntary. Why would you support an organization that enables child molester.

And I know a few tithers, Protestant and Catholic.

[Drunken Irishman]

36. Taxes are not mandatory...

Because citizenship is not mandatory. No one is forcing you to remain in America. So, why did you support a nation that murdered thousands of Iraqis?

[Skittles]

89. you are REALLY reaching

[Bluenorthwest]

112. It is not legally tenable to be Stateless, that is citizenship of someplace is mandatory.

To move to another country requires a great deal of money, acceptance by that nation and the formal rejection of American citizenship and visiting rights. You can not simply buy a ticket and go be French or Dutch or Canadian.
It is absolutely legal to be without a religious affiliation. To leave a religion does not cost money, require lawyers nor permissions, it can be done instantly by personal will alone. Just as personal will alone keeps folks in a faith. Nothing at all compels religious affiliation.
Becoming a citizen of another country is the choice of the other country, no nation has to accept you, most have huge restrictions as to who gets to become a citizen. For Americans, if you do not become a citizen of another nation, you still pay taxes here. So just moving to another country does not alter that. Another government has to grant you citizenship, not residency, citizenship. If they don't want to, they simply send you back to the US.
It would be nice to see crowds in the street protesting the bigotry and the child abuse. It would be a huge testimony to the value of that faith if more who hold it offered empathy to the victims of the dogma and of the institutional 'problems with children'. Why is it so hard for those who say they follow Jesus to say 'I am so sorry our Pope calls your family evil, I do not think that and I tell my fellows in the faith that I support equality. It is wrong that you should have to hear the Pope spew venom at your loved ones."
Those who are offended at criticism of the Pope instead of the criticism the Pope piles on others are offended at the wrong thing. Pope smears my family and household. Would it really break the backs of his followers to apologize for his trash talk?

[Deep13]

126. I'm not a martyr.

First, where would I go? Second, one guy leaving won't make any difference.

[Cronus Protagonist]

98. I don't, though.

I don't support any organization that enables anything of the sort. I never mentioned any such support. If that was an attempt on your part at mind-reading, I think you ought to know you missed the mark completely. Nice try, though.

[Deep13]

128. What makes you think I was talking about you? nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

131. Your post is tied to mine as a reply

Can you not operate the software properly? Sorry. Didn't know that. I'll keep that in mind for the future. (actually, I'll forget, but feel free to remind me)

[Deep13]

136. You're not a very nice person, are you?

Anyway, I was not referring to you.

[Cronus Protagonist]

138. No, and neither are you

At least I'm not trying to be nice.

[TlalocW]

14. Ehhhhh...

I HAD to pay taxes that were used for the wars. I wish I didn't, but I did.

However, for the most part, you don't have to give money, time, resources to any religious organization you don't want to (there are loopholes unfortunately that sends our taxes to some), and I don't understand why you would want to support any organization whose last leader made it official policy to excommunicate anyone - priest or victim - who talked about the church's sexual abuse problem.

I've never been much of a church-goer so to me it kind of blows my mind that anyone would want to continue to associate itself with an organization who commits and tries to hide these atrocities - even one that tries to hide behind being a religion.

TlalocW

[Drunken Irishman]

28. EHHH...

You don't have to pay taxes. You don't have to be American. You can leave this country at any point and go find somewhere else to live. You choose to stay, pay those taxes, support the government via paying those taxes, so, you're no better than those Catholics who, for whatever their reason, remain in the Catholic Church. Don't pretend to be any different. If we're using the logic that you MUST leave an organization or lest be associated with its conduct, then you're as guilty as President Bush for everything he did during his presidency - and even Obama, especially if you voted for him! I mean, being American is absolutely a choice. You might have been born American, but no one is keeping you here. If you truly feel being a Catholic makes someone a pedophile enabler, than you're also an enabler of murder and war and everything done in the name of America by our leaders.

[awoke_in_2003]

37. Yes, most do have to pay taxes...

how many can afford to go elsewhere? Oh, and f the catholic church.

[HiPointDem]

50. there are plenty of tax resisters in the us who've chosen *not* to pay taxes, for various

reasons.

no, you don't *have to* pay taxes if you disagree with the uses they're put to.

1. you can live under the economic line at which taxes are assessed.
2. you can work under the table.
3. you can simply refuse to pay at tax time and accept the consequences, whatever they might be.
4. you can incorporate as a non-profit or church.
5. you can renounce your citizenship and/or leave the country.

but, you don't.

[awoke_in_2003]

78. so, you can not pay your taxes...

and eventually get caught, have your possessions taken from you, and go to prison. Or, you can willfully live under the poverty line. Hell, I am in Texas. How hard can it be to be homeless here? Or, you can renounce your citizenship and go where? Emigrating takes money, and wherever you go you will have to pay taxes.

[HiPointDem]

127. actually, the consequences you list happen to few tax resisters.

http://www.nwtrcc.org/convicted_wtr.php


not that difficult or expensive to live abroad either, as witness the many people, including retirees, doing it to save money.

[TlalocW]

40. Yeah, because leaving a country

Renouncing citizenship, moving, etc. is as easy as saying, "You know what? I'm not going to give money to an already obscenely rich religious organization who not only protects its child-fuckers but pretty much works against most of my liberal beliefs such as being pro-choice, pro-marriage equality, etc." and following through with it. Especially since I have the ability to help influence the political view of the country every two years while a bunch of kid-fucker-protectors are the only ones who get to choose the next kid-fucker-protector who gets to wear the pointy hats until he dies (or is too Pooped to Pope).

TlalocW

[HiPointDem]

51. no one said they're easy. but you folks said they're impossible and the comparison is false. but

they're not impossible and the comparison is not false.

Your money supports evil every day of your life.

Droning is the official policy of our government and under obama it's reportedly taking place on a daily basis.

Pedophilia is not the official policy of the catholic church and so far as we can tell is the exception, not the rule. Despite the hysteria of the media and the catholic bashers.

[TlalocW]

61. No, Pedophilia is not the official policy of the Catholic Church...

However, PROTECTING PEDOPHILES is and has officially been since 1962 (I'm sure non-officially before then) and the then secret publication of the Vatican document, Crimen Solicitationis, which was an order to all Catholic heads of religious orders on how to deal with accusations of juvenile sexual abuse - through the threat of excommunication for both the victim and the offending priest.

It doesn't matter what you say. You're trumped by these words - They... Protect... Kid... Fuckers.

TlalocW

[HiPointDem]

75. no, it's been *secret* policy. like our *secret* torture policies and covert operations.

Secret policies are secret because they would not be supported by the masses. and they're not.

yet you have not yet renounced your US citizenship. Possibly because you still find something worthwhile in the idea of america or your place in it, despite the criminal behavior of its leadership.

and in fact, crimen solicitationis is not a document about 'protection of pedophiles'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis

[awoke_in_2003]

81. Oh, it is a secret policy...

that makes me feel much better.

[HiPointDem]

82. and the policy outlined in the document you mention isn't a policy of protecting pedophiles.

so any policy of protecting pedophiles is a secret, unofficial 'policy' of specific players as yet undocumented but which we can discern by watching how some officials react to such accusations.

rather than a secret yet official policy of the church as a body.

[awoke_in_2003]

84. I think you may be mixed up...

I mentioned no document, only the Catholic churches serial cover up of child molesting assholes.

[HiPointDem]

91. yes, sorry, that was tlaloc. but as that document was the basis for the claim that the

church had an official (but hidden) policy of covering up pedophilia, it's still relevant to your comment that you are (sarcasm) reassured by the fact that it was secret policy.

Except it wasn't. The document just outlines church policy for dealing with accusations of such crimes and in fact explicitly labels them as heinous.

It is not the church's policy to condone pedophilia among priests. That is a different thing from saying that officials of the church have sometimes covered up or minimized cases of pedophilia among priests.

But the fact is that belonging to the church is not support for pedophilia (a sin in the eyes of the church) in the same way that being a US citizen is support for, say, droning.

Because droning is *official policy,* whereas pedophilia is not.

[awoke_in_2003]

80. "Pedophilia is not the official policy of the catholic church"...

no, but it is covered up very well by those in positions of power in the church. The last fucking pope was a great cover up artist. No doubt this one will be, too.

[HiPointDem]

96. yes, it has been covered up by some in positions of power. but that is not the same thing.

[Bluenorthwest]

114. It is my official policy not to post on DU.

Of course policy is a term of art, and I do post on DU, but officially I don't. The fact that I post here frequently does not indicate the official policy, just the practice.

[backscatter712]

132. Nonsense.

Others have already explained to you the consequences of not paying taxes, the expenses of leaving the country & renouncing citizenship, and all the other barriers that make it effectively impossible for most Americans to refuse to pay taxes.

But by all means, continue with your willful ignorance.

Taxes are mandatory, church contributions are not. Therefore, those that are spending their money to financially support the Catholic Church should consider spending their money elsewhere, so as to avoid being enablers to corruption and bass-ackward repressive politics. This concept is not difficult to grasp.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

18. One thing is for sure, the haters are going to hate.

No mater what is pointed out they will keep hating. They will always be out there to convert anyone and everyone to there way of thinking.

[liberal_at_heart]

69. yeah, I give up

Some people are just going to be hateful and self righteous no matter what. Sometimes the best thing to do is to ignore the hate and continue on loving. I think that is what I am going to do. I'm just going to go back to deleting all the threads where people are being hateful to one another and concentrate on the ones where people are being civil. We certainly can't make their hate go away with hate anymore than they can make the abuse stop with hate.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

74. That is the best way to handle it that I've heard.

[muriel_volestrangler]

106. So you're saying you're going to ignore the Catholic hierarchy from now on?

Good for you. Everyone should ignore what the hateful and self righteous Pope and bishops say.

[jsr]

77. Too bad this place is now an anti-Catholic magnet

Talk about pissing off your own team - the most liberal people I know are Catholic.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

137. It will pass.

As soon as the news of the new Pope gets old, the negative posts will leave.

[phleshdef]

20. There are over 1 billion catholics on this planet. A small minority are to blame for child abuse.

The blame for the child abuse, as if with ANY case of child abuse, Catholic clergy involved, or not, goes towards those who performed the abuse and those who definitely knew about the abuse but didn't do anything meaningful about it.

I'm definitely no Catholic. I'm not religious. I'm a hair away from being an atheist. But I'm not going to pin the blame on 1 billion people for something that 1 billion people did not participate in, contribute to or condone. And that's just the facts. The vast majority of Catholics have never participated in, contributed to or condoned child abuse. Just like the vast majority of Muslims have never participated in, contributed to or condoned terrorism.

I think we all would be better off, giving an honest objective view on these kinds of issues instead of getting into making prejudiced generalizations regarding other people based on demographical labels. That's not the way we are suppose to think about things.

[HiPointDem]

55. +1.

[kas125]

21. Wrong. Going to a chuch is a choice and like I told a friend of mine,

if choose to enter a Catholic church, you may as well put a sign on your forehead that says "I support child rape." No excuses, if you choose to go there, you choose to support what they have done and continue to do. Citizens have no choice about what their gov't does in their names, the only thing they can do is make sure they protest enough to get their names published in the news, as I have, so history will record that we didn't support the madness.

[Union Scribe]

47. +1

People who buy into this group guilt philosophy for Catholics need to accept their own horrible guilt for countless crimes, as their ideology demands.

[King_Klonopin]

99. That is an incredibly offensive and stupid accusation to make.

"I go to a Catholic church, therefore I support child rape."

Religious discussions on this website always go off the rails,
and this thread is no exception.

Your conclusion is so illogical and concrete that I can't find
the words for rebuttal. But, why should I bother?

You want us (Catholics) to throw out the baby (Jesus) with the
bathwater ? Good solution!

There is evil and hypocrisy in EVERY person -- including yourself.

As I see it, I have two choices:

1) I can give up and shake my self-righteous fist at the whole friggin'
world. (embrace the dark side)

2) I can do what I can for the sake of what is good (embrace the light)

Catholic and Liberal are synonomous to me.

[Notafraidtoo]

27. I was wondering this today

Why don't Catholics force the clergy to clean things up, the church is nothing with out its members,why are so many Catholics willing to let pedophiles go free and not be outraged at the abuse of the church.

Would we allow Wall street bankers to molest 1000's of children and cover it up? I mean i guess we do let them rob our pensions.

[rhett o rick]

29. No way. That is a terrible comparison. I feel responsible for what Bush did even though I

protested every way I could. What Catholics can say the same? They have the luxury of being able to leave the church and go to a church that doesnt foster child abuse. I cant easily leave America.

In what way do Catholics protest the child abuse from those they believe are closer to God? I and a lot of other Americans voted against the party that supported the wars. What have Catholics done to change the culture of child abuse?

[Drunken Irishman]

38. You can leave America...

It might not be easy, but it's also not easy for a Catholic to give up their faith. But you can leave America. The fact you remain here is not an excuse. If you really felt responsible for what Bush was doing in your name, you would've packed your bags and left this nation. You didn't. So, you're a murderer. It sucks, I know. But you're just as guilty, I guess, as we Catholics are for pedophilia. But hey, at least we'll all be in hell together, right?

[rhett o rick]

107. Again the comparison is bad. I know a number of people that have left the church.

I do feel responsibility for what Bush did but I am going to stay and fight. We were in the streets and we succeeded in electing a president with different principles. Now maybe the Catholic parishioners are fighting to change the solidly patriarchal church structure that puts the sanctity of priesthood above the safety of children, but it isnt apparent. I am not at all worried about hell because I dont believe in that, nor do I believe that the Pope or priests are closer to God than me.

[Catherina]

62. Why is it such a terrible comparison?

For the record, I was so disgusted at what America was doing that I sold everything I owned and moved out of the country living on a tiny fraction of what I used to have before because I refuse to contribute a single dime to the crimes our country is committing. And to my delight, I found out there are many others who did just that.

You can't just leave a Church as easily as you're saying because the doctrines are different. So many people, like many American citizens just stay put and try to change it from within.

I say this with respect, not snarkily ok? But voting against the party that supported the wars isn't much at all when both parties supported the wars and the wars are still raging and expanding.


There's a huge pedophilia scandal in Britain right now, that encompasses high-level members of the government and the cover-up was paid for with tax dollars for decades. Should all the Brits change their citizenship?

What I'm trying to say, in my clumsy way, is that that beam obscuring our view always makes it appear easier for the other guy.

[rhett o rick]

109. But the comparison is terrible. Bush started in about 2002 and we replaced him in 2008

with someone that had completely different principles. In the mean times we protested his policies in the streets, bought newspaper ads, used email campaigns and other attempts to influence our Congress-critters.

I am not going to get into the history of the Catholic Church as I dont intend my posts to be anti-Catholic, and while many people have left the church I would only hope those that want to stay in the church, become active in changing the patriarchal structure and
reject the idea that the sanctity of priests is more important than the safety of children.

May I ask what country you are in now?

[Catherina]

122. I still maintain nothing big changed, especially in matters of foreign policy

"we protested his policies in the streets, bought newspaper ads, used email campaigns and other attempts to influence our Congress-critters"

And it didn't change a single thing. With all due respect, when you compare the resistance of US citizens to the resistance in certain other countries where things were changed, you can't really say we did much. We did what was allowed within the confines of laws designed to make sure nothing changed. And nothing did in our foreign policy that has it's heavy boots on the necks of millions of people around the world. I'm in Guatemala where you can see the effects of that heavy boot, and where hundreds of thousands of priests and nuns gave up everything to help the poor and try to change things on the ground.

I don't want to get into a long discussion about it because honestly, it really doesn't matter to me what other people think anymore, but I find the hypocrisy of telling Catholics to leave their Church mind-boggling from a people that finances the greatest, most obscene killing machine of the last 2 centuries, and either justifies it or learned to helplessly *live with it*.

[Bluenorthwest]

115. What country did you become a citizen of? Because unless you formally reject your US

citizenship and take another, you are still subject to American taxation. Simply moving to another country does not remove your tax burden as an American.
So how did you get your citizenship where you live now? Or did you just move and retain your American citizenship and thus your legal requirement to pay taxes here?

[Catherina]

119. It's done a lot more than people think

Last edited Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Guatemala, Living simply on little. Income tax exclusion (Americans working abroad can exclude up to $95100 foreign-earned income per year from their US taxes).

I got a permanent visa but many Americans in Latin America don't even bother with the visa requirement. They just move down here and either get their visa renewed every 6 months for a small fee (plus a small bribe), travel to a surrounding country to get it restamped to immediately re-enter for 6 more months or just stay put and don't worry about it because they have no plans of ever needing that passport again.

I retain my citizenship for the moment.

[obxhead]

35. Bullshit!

I've NEVER seen a group of Catholics march for the ending of clergy abuse!

I've NEVER seen or heard of a video of a Catholic standing up in church demanding the church answer for child abuse.

I've marched in groups and I've stood alone screaming at the top of my lungs that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were bullshit.

Edit to add: I miss the unrec function for the first time.

[Drunken Irishman]

39. You marched!

Good for you! I bet it took a lot out of you.

[obxhead]

42. Yes I did

and yes it did "take a lot out of me."

It's also more than ANY group of Catholics have done to end the rape and abuse of children in the history of Christianity.

[Union Scribe]

45. Have you ever seen "Google"?

http://www.catholics-united.org/content/press-release-catholics-abuse-victims-deliver-petition-cardinal%E2%80%99s-north-hollywood-residence

[obxhead]

52. oooooooooooo

WOW

A petition!

That makes the hundreds of thousands I've gathered (marched) with in DC pale in comparison.

[Union Scribe]

60. oooooo moving the goalposts!

Lol, it took about five seconds to find that by, gasp, looking. I shot down your bullshit with that little effort.

And despite your grandiose vision of yourself bravely stopping the wars, they happened. So you're still guilty under your ideology.

[obxhead]

71. Seconds to find?

Really? You haven't shot down anything.



Show me the evidence of a group like this at the Vatican demanding answers.

[Union Scribe]

79. You claimed no knowledge of any Catholic group

doing anything to protest sexual abuses. I explained how an individual such as yourself, very busy with constant marches, would obtain such information fairly quickly. Now you demand a certain NUMBER of protesters for it to mean anything ( ).

You were wrong, you continue to be wrong, but instead of admitting it like a peacemaker you're moving the goalposts.

And you're still guilty by your own standards. Oh, the guilt. The guilt.

[joesdaughter]

49. Google SNAP n/t

[obxhead]

54. SNAP!

Link?

[kwassa]

117. Here are links to Catholic protests of clergy abuse

a couple minutes on Google.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Clergy-and-nuns-join-protest-against-Philadelphia-cardinal---VIDEO-119239034.html

http://www.france24.com/en/20101031-victims-priest-sex-abuse-protest-outside-vatican-catholic-church-walk-rome-pope

http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_news/providence/providence-protest-at-providence-catholic-headquarters

[BainsBane]

53. I love the "I've never seen meme"

because no one puts the news in front of your uninitiated face it doesn't exist. You've obviously avoided learning about all the Catholic groups working to reform the church and Catholics waging lawsuits over sex abuse. You avoided learning about the Nuns on the Bus, about Oscar Romero, about the Maryknoll Sisters, about a great deal. You wouldn't know about the sex abuse case if not for Catholics. Who do you think exposed those cases?

Evidently you never heard of all of the Catholics who were murdered in Central American with your tax dollars. Or the Catholic clergy and groups that fight for social justice all around the world while you sit at home watching TV and consuming gasoline acquired through war. Who do you think organized the protests against US interventions in Latin America during the 70s and 80s?

There is a great deal you have not "seen," principally because no one "sees" news. They must read it and seek it out, although all of what I've mentioned above has actually been covered on television. There is evidently a great deal you've managed to avoid learning, and that is no one's fault but your own.

[Catherina]

63. Wow. I think I love you

You nicely nailed our lack of moral consistency and general hypocrisy in one short post.

[BainsBane]

70. Thanks

I'm glad someone does. I'm not very popular around here.

[obxhead]

72. Show one picture

Just show me one picture of hundreds of thousands gathering at the Vatican demanding they answer for child abuse.

[BainsBane]

88. why, are you unable to read?

You need a picture book? Educate yourself. Figure out what you're even talking about.

[Notafraidtoo]

83. I like your post.

And i am a big fan of the nuns on the bus,being someone who isn't catholic i am wondering why it is so difficult to clean up something that everyone can agree is evil like Child abuse?why would this take so long for the church to deal with?

[BainsBane]

90. I have a few theories

Firstly, there is no excusing the pedophile scandal. It's horrific and they should all be prosecuted. The best thing Pope Francis could do is be firm on this issue and insist any not yet prosecuted priests turn themselves over to police authorities.

So as for why they've been so complicit in this and haven't dealt with it effectively.
I think the cause of child molestation in the church relates to secrecy about sex and celibacy rules that tend to attract some uncomfortable with their sexuality. While there have been celibacy rules for centuries, it was generally understood as marriage rather than complete abstinence. Priests had mistresses and partners, even children. Historical documentation provides evidence of this. The relatively recent (150 years or so) insistence on abstinence among priests is unhealthy. Ordination of women would also help with these problems.

As for failing to act against pedophile priests. Part of this, I think, gets back to centuries in which the church was immune from prosecution by state authorities. In many countries, ecclesiastical courts had jurisdiction over any crime a priest committed, as well as many by ordinary citizens. I suspect the church, as an extremely old institution, has yet to fully come to terms with the fact it is not sovereign outside of the Vatican and must submit to state authority.

Then I suppose they thought the priests' sins could be forgiven and they could be redeemed. Forgiveness and redemption is one positive aspect of Catholicism in that the religion holds that a person can turn his or her life around at any point and that no one is beyond God's grace. But pedophiles don't get better. They continue to rape and molest children. The Church covered it up in order to protect itself, and appears it has yet to fully come to terms with the dimensions of that atrocity. Lawyers giving them advice on how to protect themselves from civil damages only prompt archdiocese to behave in ways that hurt the credibility of the church. The damage is obviously tremendous to the lives of those molested as children. In my view, there is no worse sin than harming a child. The scandal has also hurt ordinary Catholics who feel betrayed by the church. Today 2/3 of self-identified Catholics in the US don't attend mass regularly. The Pope and the church hierarchy needs to think about the damage their actions have caused to the souls those they are entrusted with looking after.

[Notafraidtoo]

101. Thank you

Very informative.

[patrice]

129. DU-ers pretend all of the time that what they don't know doesn't matter. This started getting bad

in 2008 and is at somekind of apogee right now, I think.

[BainsBane]

57. denying pedophilia is repulsive

That more than anything makes the church look bad. Blaming atheists for pedophile priests and actions by the church to cover up their crimes is absurd. It only shows people circling the wagons. If the church doesn't learn its lesson on stopping to deny this stuff and cover it up, they will never regain credibility. You are doing more harm than good here.

[Gravitycollapse]

67. Touching through clothing or inserting one's penis - rape is rape.

So the 10,000 figure is accurate if not, likely, under-representative.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

59. There is something that many are not thinking about when they bash Catholics.

They yell and scream about how Catholics should leave their faith. There are many Catholics is the NE and the SW. Push people enough to leave their faith they may/more than likely leave your party instead.


I see this gripping on all kinds of Democrat sites lately. It scares me about 2014.

[JVS]

65. Before clicking this thread, I wouldn't have thought so.

But after seeing the horrendously poor comparisons in this thread, I disagree.

A few points:
Emigration is difficult, as few countries in the world want immigrants showing up. Name me one country where I can show up with nothing and be allowed to start a new life.

Going to another church or no church at all is at worst a minor inconvenience and at best an opportunity to have Sunday morning to yourself.

Being baptized as an infant in no way compels ongoing participation in the Church. The Catholic clergy will be among the first to tell you that one of the largest demographics in American religion is that of "lapsed Catholics".

Tithe is voluntary while taxes are legally obligatory.

When anti-war politicians lose elections or are marginalized, I cannot take my ball and go home. I already am home, and the warmongers have the levers of power tightly in hands.

In contrast, Catholic laity knows from the outset that they have little say in matters and does get less of a chance to make their wishes known than voters, but the clergy don't have any power to make people keep showing up and supporting it with their money.

On a final note, most every victim of molestation by the Catholic clergy was victimized because the clergy abused the trust of the laity. Parishioners sent donations up to the diocese level and the bishops there supplied parishes with priests, and not infrequently priests whom they had removed from other postings due to inappropriate conduct. But without the laity placing their trust in these priests, the kids would have been safe. Instead people blindly sent their kids to the churches and told them to be respectful and deferential to Fr. so-and-so. That's how you get your kid molested.

One of the bitterest parts of this is that the parents' trust in the clergy was instrumental in the ongoing victimization of their children. Had they never extended the trust, had they already left the church like so many people do, their kids would have been fine. Not only were these people providing the money to keep the wheels of the organization turning, but they even provided the victims. Consequently, leaving the church (as many DUers suggest) would probably be the most effective way of preventing further victimization.

[Gravitycollapse]

66. The issue is that we are to blame for our country's wars.

[ZombieHorde]

76. That is just silly. Becoming a citizen of another country is very difficult,

while leaving the Catholic Church is very easy. The two are not even close.

eta: I am not saying all Catholics are to blame for the molestations, I am just saying the comparison is very poor.

[sofa king]

85. Yeah, and I feel guilty for both things.

You don't?

[Cronus Protagonist]

103. No.

I did not have a dog in either hunt, however, and I fought the warring Bush cabal from day one, when it was dangerous and unpopular to do it too. I felt afraid, but not guilty.

However, if you participated in both things, one could feel badly, however, for the rest of the readers here, the point of this thread is to note that the average member effectively has no control over what is done in her name at the highest levels of any and each cultural edifice; church, government, union, corporation, company, community, family and so on. Making all members of a group wrong for the actions of a cabal of corruption within an organization isn't going to solve anything, and it's not fair. The average member doesn't support the actions of the cabal at all. The claim to the contrary is therefore inaccurate and inflammatory.

BTW Quite a few people here are IMHO spending way too much time and energy on dissecting the details of a simile which was stated for its implications rather than its superlative detail correlation. That is simply a way to miss the point entirely.

[Skittles]

87. no one is forced to give money to a church

[Apophis]

92. I would never continue to support an organization if I found out

the organization knowingly covered up child sex abuse.

Any decent person would do the same.

[HiPointDem]

97. "The organization" is huge, and not a strict command hierarchy.

The responses of the Catholic Church to the sex abuse cases can be viewed on three levels: the diocesan level, the episcopal conference level, and the Vatican.

Responses to the scandal proceeded at levels in parallel, with the higher levels becoming progressively more involved as the gravity of the problem became more apparent. For the most part, responding to allegations of sexual abuse in a diocese was left to the jurisdiction of the local bishop or archbishop.

According to Thomas Plante, a psychiatrist specializing in abuse counseling and considered an expert on clerical abuse, "unlike most large organizations that maintain a variety of middle management positions, the organizational structure of the Catholic Church is a fairly flat structure. Therefore, prior to the Church clergy abuse crisis in 2002, each bishop decided for himself how to manage these cases and the allegations of child sexual abuse by priests. Some have handled these matters very poorly (as evidenced in Boston) while others have handled these issues very well."

John L. Allen, Jr., senior correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter, characterized the reaction of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) as calling for "swift, sure and final punishment for priests who are guilty of this kind of misconduct."[114]

In contrast to this, Allen characterized the Vatican's primary concern as wanting to make sure "that everyone's rights are respected, including the rights of accused clergy" and wanting to affirm that it is not acceptable to "remedy the injustice of sexual abuse with the injustice of railroading priests who may or may not be guilty."[114]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Church_responses


Since the 2002 cases, the US church has done the following:

In response to deficiencies in canonical and secular law, both ecclesiastical and civil authorities have implemented procedures and laws to prevent sexual abuse of minors by clergy and to report and punish it if and when it occurs. In June 2002, the USCCB adopted a zero tolerance for responding to allegations of sexual abuse.

The Charter instituted reforms to prevent future abuse by requiring background checks for Church employees.[121] The Charter requires dioceses faced with an allegation to alert the authorities, conduct an investigation and remove the accused from duty.

According to Catholic News Service by 2008, the U.S. church had trained "5.8 million children to recognize and report abuse," run criminal checks on volunteers and employees and trained them to create a safe environment for children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Church_responses


In addition to over a billion in US court settlements.

A better 'reform' record than the US government, imo.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

104. Not quite. People vote against war, people protest in the streets against war, people

Not quite. People vote against war, people protests in the streets against war, people don't donate to war mongers.

However, many catholics and other faiths continue to donate money to their churches and dioceses that haven't adequately addressed the issue of clergy abuse or have actively covered it up. I don't see many of the 1.2 billion catholics protesting in the streets with banners and marches against the rampant abuse and even the willful coverup by higher levels, including shuffling priest around to abuse again.

[Tom Rinaldo]

113. Oh come on

Almost all of us "support wars" through our taxes. I don't see very many of us doing full scale tax resistance. When Catholics donate money to their Church it is not that unlike American Citizens paying their Federal taxes. We here at DU advocate for raising taxes on the wealthy - that means more money flowing into federal coffers. That means more money potentially available for wars. Yes we also argue against most wars - but stopping them is not a precondition for us supporting raising federal revenues. Yes we argue that the Pentagon should get less moneyu - but that is not a precondition to our supporting raising taxes on the wealthy either.

There are plenty of Nuns and Priests who work and pray for changes in the Catholic Church - and for those who are believers prayor IS action. There are plenty of Catholics who work hard to end child abuse and sexual exploitation. When I had a job with Catholic Charities back in the 80' they paid to establish programs that worked to get homeless, (sometimes called "throw away" rather than "runaway" youth to put the focus where it should be) off of San Francisco streets where they were subject to sexual predators of every stripe. Many, maybe most of them, were gay and lesbian kids. Catholic Charities funded programs that gave them value nuetral services free of any religious expectations, and access to dedicated compassionate Gay and Lesbian counselors who cared deeply about their well being. Money for those programs came from collectons taken during masses from the faithful.

I also don't see many of the 300 million American citizens out in the street protesting child abuse that has taken place in churches either. Ultimateloy it is a secular issue subject to our criminal justice system - which operates in the name of the people - us. The most effective efforts to break through the denial has come from groups directly supporting the victims, and many of them have Catholic identification - dissident Catholics perhaps, but still Catholic. They are part of the resistance.

Meanwhile there are tens of millions of active Catholics practicing civil disobedience if you will regarding some official aspects of current Church dogma. Catholics who support abortion rights, Catholics who practice birth control, Catholics who support gay marriages and attend those ceremonies, Catholics who believe women should be able to become priests.

[Bluenorthwest]

116. 65% of Catholic Charities cash comes from the US government. Less that 3% from parishes.

IN SF at the time you speak of, they used tax payer money to provide services and then used the providing of those services to make the city end it's equality policies. They took a budget made of tax dollars to 'help gay youth' and then used that 'help' to harm all gay people. They exploited the youth for their own interests, using money from the American tax payers to do so.
You actually say CC 'funded' these programs, when those funds come largely from secular government. Jesus said 'let your yes mean yes, your on mean no, anything more comes from evil'. I did not say that, Jesus did. Funded. Let funded mean funded, I said that.

[Tom Rinaldo]

120. To recap and expand on our exchange on another thread

None of the initial money that funded the community organizing and program development for hmeless youth work that I was involved in at the time was government money. Oh I'm sure that portions of government funded grants for other work being done through Catholic Charities supported some of the administrative structure that was needed, like rent for my office space etc. to launch the programs I worked on, but I honestly think focusing on that would be splitting hairs.

I was the one who ultimately wrote the first applications for government grants for homeless youth work that Catholic Charities was engaged in - and that was a full year into the project. For a long time the only government money that came into the programs came n the form of VISTA volynteers who worked directly as line staff with homeless youth. There was no milk to be milked from having 8 VISTA Volunteers.

Throughout the entire program, both before and after the direct service components came online, Catholic Charities funded my work building a community Coalition (It was called Y.E.S. for Youth Emergency Services) to mobilize support to fight for street youth. This was a long time ago now so forgive me for being sketchy on some details, but that coalition had strong participation in if from organized non-Catholic Gay organizations, youth advocacy organizations, the United Church of Christ, other non church related non profit service providers etc. One person I can remember who worked hard with us from the Gay Community was Greg Day.

Y.E.S. helped lobby in Sacromento succesfully for new Demonstration projects on ways to work with street youth to be established inside San Francisco and Los Angeles - two hot spots for homeless youth. Catholic Charities had no part of the programs that ulitmtely were set up in L.A. and only a small part of the program that ultimately was funded in S.F. Both projects made a huge positive difference in reaching and helping highly at risk youth.

There are two programs inside San Francisco today that still work with homeless youth that Catholic Charities helped get off the ground. Both take some government money but Catholic Charites gets none of it because once those programs were fully self sufficient the Catholic Charities components were spun off; in one case as a new non church related non profit service provider, and in the other case the C.C. component was hanved over to a new agency that emerged from the collaboration of different agencies that grew out of the Y.E.S. coalition. The first is the Diamond Youth Shelter which I was the initial director of, the second is Polk Street Tpwn Hall. There was never any tension between Catholic Charities and either program, either before or after they were spun off.

As to your assertion that Catholic Charities exploited gay youth for their own interests in S.F. through the projects I worked on, that is your opinion and you have a right to it. Having been there at the time, my opinion differs strongly from yours in that regard.

[rustydog]

123. Drop the church! If your diocese is hiding a molester or just absorpbed one from another diocese,

why in Hell would you go to that church, tithe to that church? REWARD that behavior with your money and presence? Why in GOD's Good name would you listen to that priest preach the word of God to you?....By the way, the reason the Holy Catholic Church doesn't out the priests, defrock them or prosecute them is the MONEY their unholy love of money and the power the Catholic church holds over millions of good decent people.

How many news paper articles, TV news spots have we all seen where a community is OUTRAGED because tent city is coming to their neighborhood, they are filled with rage because a child molester has moved close to a school...but not one evening news broadcast of Catholic parishioners protesting daily until the Pope and all the Cardinals stop hiding these sick child predators and rapists.

If millions stopped tithing to the Holy Church, the church telling all Catholics to be TRUTHFUL, and live life free of SIN in other words, do as we say not as we do, and please be sure to notice the collection plate that is being passed around and the dish at the doorway!...something would be done by the hierarchy in a heartbeat.

[patrice]

130. And, of course, when you do, you'll increase the support for social & economic justice that you just

subtracted from one column and add it to a new means of doing the same, sans the pedophilia. And, yes, that will be an INCREASE, because what you were previously giving to pedophilia can now be given just to social and economic justice.

. . . or not and I'd be willing to bet the nots are more numerous than the yeses.

[99Forever]

134. Really?

I got up off my ass and protested "the WARS" on multiple occasions, in public at the risk of being arrested or beaten by police. Got some links to Catholic parishioners doing the same.

(And for the record, my family roots go back to County Cork, with no shortage of priests and nuns in it.)