Being Catholic- It's Complicated

[joesdaughter]

What I hold dear and what disgusts about my church result in intensely felt emotions. I received formal Catholic education from first grade through university level. I attended a large Jesuit university and there was always the joke that a Jesuit could die for his faith, but could never lead it. Who knew?

Practicing Catholics can be very different from each other. I am fascinated with Church history. I an intrigued with dogma and canon law. I have been both inspired by and comforted by liturgy. Family traditions from birth to death are based on my Catholic culture. I cannot ignore the fact that in the name of the Church terrible events have occurred. But so too has the Church taken noble stands. There are examples of both that have been brought up here.

I grew up in a "union" family. And was familiar with" Rerum Novarum" at a very young age. This Encyclical by Pope Leo XIII was a powerful statement on Capitalism and Labor. It had an impact on labor relations around the world. Looking at it through the prism of the times it was written shows how powerful it was and still should be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rerum_Novarum


Will I continue to practice Catholicism ? At 63 I still don't know. I don't need anyone else to give their approval of my spiritual journey. So my wish for my fellow DUers is that we lighten up.

[Ian David]

1. I hear the Unitarians and United Church of Christ are very nice. n/t

[joesdaughter]

2. Yep, me too. n/t

[Drahthaardogs]

6. If you are proposing the Unitarians are a substitute for Catholicism, well

you need to brush up on your theology. The Unitarians are not even Christian, putting Jesus as a prophet.

I mean, if you want to dance and sing and feel good, it might be for you. If you actually are a person with theological beliefs that include modern Christian teachings, the Unitarians have very little to offer.

[Ian David]

7. I'm just saying there are better ways to get your Jesus-fix that don't hurt anyone. n/t

[Drahthaardogs]

8. And I am saying, at least take the time to offer an alternative

that actually WORSHIPS Jesus.

What you proposed would be like telling a Jew to go to a Sunni Muslim Mosque.

I do not mean to be offensive, but if you are so uninformed that you do not realize Unitarians do NOT worship Jesus, while Catholics see Jesus as one of "three Gods in one God", why are you posting in religious threads?

[Ian David]

9. Some Evangelical Lutheran Church congregations are progressive. United Church of Christ is Jesus-y.

[Drahthaardogs]

10. No, you specifically posted the Unitarians as an alternative to Catholocism

and you obviously did not even realize that they were not Christian, but monotheist.

Why would you do that?

and on edit:

You are correct that some Lutheran Congregations are very progressive; however, most are not. In fact, pretty much all mainstream Christian religions are against homosexuality, gay marriage, sexual promiscuity, etc. Many (especially the evangelicals) are much more hateful about it than the Catholic Church. Why aren't you bashing them?

Don't get me wrong, the pedophile priests are the most disgusting creatures I have ever heard about, as are or were any Bishops, Cardinals, or Popes who protected them. I will defend ANYONE who rails against them. However, the Catholic belief system is not much different from a moral perspective (and I am NOT saying that they are right) than most other mainstream Christian religions. Why must the Catholics be the sole recipients of everyone's ire?

[Ian David]

12. I also suggested United Church of Christ. Who, last time I checked, had something to do with Jesus.

Besides, aren't god and Jesus supposed to be the same person, anyway?

[loli phabay]

13. peoples faith does not just change daily, you would not expect a sunni to just change to buddhist

Or any other faith. Being catholic is not the same as any other christian religion and if its your faith you dont just move to methodist or something.

[Drahthaardogs]

17. Methodist? Hell, his suggesting would be equivalent to converting to Judiaism

Seriously, if this is the depth of knowledge of all of the anti-Catholic posting on DU...

[Ian David]

23. Then they're really wasting a lot of money on TV ads and magazines left at the laundromat. n/t

[loli phabay]

25. no not really, the ads etc are aimed at people looking for something, not for people who already hav

Faith or belief in another religion. I dont think you understand what belonging to a faith means and i dont just mean paying lip service. If you are catholic or jewish or muslim then your not just going to jump ship unless you already have doubts. Taking catholism as an example, if you see yourself as a catholic then going to a protestant church isnt the same as attending a catholic church. I liken it to sports, if you are a packers fan going to see the redskins is no where in the same ballpark as watching your team.

[Drahthaardogs]

14. Again, please just answer the question

Did you really not realize that Unitarianism and Catholicism are almost polar opposites in the very Dogma they espouse? I am not trying to be a jackass, but I will say this. If you did not know that the Unitarians are monotheists, don't you think that maybe you might need to study up a little on your theology?

And Editing this:

Your post "Besides aren't God and Jesus the same anyway?" If you really were serious when you wrote this statement....

[kwassa]

18. um, Unitarians have no dogma.

They are mostly a non-theistic bunch altogether, speaking as someone who grew up in the church. I speak of the modern American version of Unitarian church, the mostly unlikely word to be heard in a Unitarian sermon is the G-word.

Also, Ian is right in saying that there are liberal churches that support gays and women and all the rest of that, like the UCC and the Episcopalians, and the liberal sides of the Lutheran church.

[Drahthaardogs]

21. He is wrong, maybe to the point of being silly

Because he is advising a Catholic to go to Unitarian Church as an alternative, and it appears that he did not realize Unitarians are NOT Christian (as you just re-enforced).


As for the "liberal Lutherans" let's not pretend like they are mainstream American Lutherans, because they are not. Most Lutheran Church's are pretty darned conservative, although there are branches of liberal ones here and there (I hear Sweeden has a few). But he offered not a liberal Lutheran Church as an alternative, but a Unitarian Church, which is completely silly to any Catholic (or Christian for that matter) that actually goes to Church to worship Christ.

Let's face it, Christianity as a whole is pretty conservative.

and just an edit: Of course they have a dogma, it is just not much of one, that whole "You only have to turn inside of you to find god" stuff. That is their dogma.

[kwassa]

38. no, there is no Unitarian dogma, and there are liberal Lutherans

Here is the Unitarian creed if you wish to read it.

http://www.bible.ca/cr-Unitarian-universalist.htm

Ian is also correct. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is liberal in that it ordains both gays and women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America

and most Christian churches are not conservative, just some very vocal ones.

[Drahthaardogs]

40. No. Check the numbers, and the definition of Dogma

You say there is no dogma and then post a creed (facepalm), Dogma = the official system of belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization. You did not even know what the word meant.

Most of the Christian Churches ARE conservative.

The Catholics and Southern Baptists make up over 50%, and are both conservative in their teachings. Add the Mormons in at about 4%. Other Protestants and non-denominational makes up the rest of Christianity.

The Catholic Church, 68,503,456 members
The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,160,088 members
The United Methodist Church, 7,774,931 members
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6,058,907 members
The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

As far as sexuality and roles of women, most Christian Churches are conservative. If you are talking about social justice, then the Catholics are fairly liberal in that regard.

[Ian David]

22. I understand. I just don't see why it makes such a big difference. n/t

[Drahthaardogs]

24. Because if you are going to bash a group on DU

you should at least take the time out to make sure you are making accusations founded in reality. Despite all the Catholic hate here on DU, we voted for Obama 57-42%. He would not have won without us. It pretty much makes all the hatred sound and fury signifying nothing. We vote our conscious, and almost six out of ten, vote Democrat. It pretty much makes all the "Catholics hate gays, women, blah, blah, blah" nonsensical. We are not the Curia; we vote Democrat.

Quit telling me what to do.

[Ian David]

26. So, if Catholics voted with their feet, and changed religions, they'd stop voting for Obama? n/t

[Drahthaardogs]

27. Huh?

That doesn't even makes sense.

[Ian David]

30. I know. n/t

[Drahthaardogs]

31. Too much green beer huh?

Drink a litter of water and take two advil before you go to bed.

[gopiscrap]

28. The Evangelical Lutheran Church (ELCA)

is a result of the merge between the ALC and LCA in 1989. THey have just voted for same sex marriage and the ordination of gay clergy. They are somewhat progressive and a lot like Catholic-lite

[Drahthaardogs]

29. I think the Catholics voted for gay clergy eons ago...

They just did not realize it

[Dorian Gray]

34. Some Catholic churches

are pretty progressive too. Certainly the one that I attend is. There is a very prominent gay and lesbian ministry at our congregation.

[eallen]

36. Everyone who worships Jesus should ask him which church he prefers.

If he doesn't talk to you, that tells you something.

If he does talk to you, that tells you something else.

[loli phabay]

5. i am sure they are but they are not the catholic faith that the poster was brought up in

[backscatter712]

32. Being a hard-core atheist, I agree with this.

The Unitarian-Universalists and United Church of Christ are awesome!

[defacto7]

35. I am an atheist as well.

But the Unitarian Church has many different faces. There is quite an anti-atheist undercurrent. One of the heads of the UUC wrote a book that basically pissed on anyone who was a non-believer. You can read up if you wish:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2011/11/can-an-atheist-be-a-unitarian-universalist-part-1/

There are 3 parts including a conversation with the author by the writer of this blog.

The book in question... A Chosen Faith co-authored by John A. Buehrens, president of the Unitarian Universalist Association from 1993 to 2001 and still active.

I'm not sure the UUC is for either end of the spectrum except for individual congregations that fit.

[cleanhippie]

3. It's not subscribing to the catholic faith that is a problem.

It's giving one's time, money, and support to the church, which enables it to continue its misogynistic, homophobic, child-raping and protecting ways.

Filling the pews and the coffers is the problem, not the belief.

[joesdaughter]

11. My Parish

Is very committed to social justice. We have a beautiful but simple building. We make lunch for day laborers weekly. We are part of an inter-faith network that houses homeless families, our facilities provide space for AA, NA, and others. We have an LGBT support group (not pray your way straight) We run a food bank and provide gas cards, bus passes and have paid utility bills for those in need.

We requested and were allowed to designated our Diocesan Appeal funds to specific programs. Nobody wanted to give to the criminal defense fund. There are so many "ministries" we can committ to that whatever your talents, you can find a way to contribute.

http://www.sainttheresecenter.org/pantry.html

We also work with other parishes to run a county-wide Saint Theresa's HIV outreach.

Women are Readers and Eucharistic ministers (baby steps).

None of this makes THE Church absolved of its bigotry and criminal activity. But it is why so many Catholics strive for change through prayer and example.

[union_maid]

15. I just posted in another thread on this

but it bears repeating. I am neither Catholic nor religious. My mother chose to leave the Catholic church before she even met my father. But even I can see the good along with the bad. Here where I live the RC church provides help to undocumented immigrants in a variety of ways. They keep a fund to provide emergency money for indigent families about to lose their housing, when help from DSS falls short. They don't ask that you be Catholic to receive the help. They run food pantries and soup kitchens. They are where day laborers went when a county executive who was an an anti-immigrant tear had dozens of them evicted from their housing with no notice whatever. I can't believe I'm defending the Catholic church. I'm no fan of organized religion as a rule, but the Catholic church is a huge and varied institution. Where it does good, it does important things and often things that no one else will step up to do.

[Beartracks]

33. Nicely stated. n/t

[Dawson Leery]

4. Individuals have the right to chose their own beliefs.

[snooper2]

16. you could just ignore it for 6 months

and see if your life changes any...

[backscatter712]

19. My primary critique is a partially financial one.

I don't have a problem with individuals with Catholic faith - most of them are very nice, and most of them do support women's rights and GLBT rights.

BUT...

People have claimed that the money they tithe to their local parishes does not go to the church hierarchy, or to homophobic or misogynistic political campaigns. That's not true.

Tithe money, that good people have given to the church to pay for food banks, schools, homeless shelters, domestic violence programs, etc., as well as the upkeep of their own parishes, has been used to bankroll the vicious campaigns against marriage equality across the country.

http://hrc.org/nomexposed/section/the-catholic-hierarchys-devotion-to-fighting-marriage-equality

The Roman Catholic Hierarchy’s Devotion to Fighting Marriage Equality

The Roman Catholic Church and its affiliate, the Knights of Columbus, played a leading role in funding anti-LGBT equality efforts in the four states where marriage equality was on the ballot this fall. The Church hierarchy invested nearly $2 million in the failed attempts to write discrimination into the Minnesota constitution and stem marriage equality in Maine, Maryland, and Washington. Dioceses from across the country supported these efforts financially, thought it’s doubtful that the parishioners fueling these contributions had any idea that their money was being used to fund discrimination.

According to Public Religion Research Institute, nearly 60 percent of Catholics support marriage equality. And an astounding 83 percent of Catholics in the United States say they don’t feel compelled to vote in accordance with the political preaching of bishops. These numbers from the laity represent people who, whether they know it or not, are living out their faith daily - Catholic social teaching promotes treating everyone with love, dignity, and respect.

But despite the values of the laity, the Catholic Church hierarchy is pouring immense resources into preventing loving, committed same-sex couples from marrying. . In fact, in the wake of last week’s historic victories for equality, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops doubled down and vowed to continue funding efforts to discriminate against LGBT people. The Roman Catholic Church will make these investments at the same time and with the same dollars that would otherwise go to support soup kitchens, homeless shelters and domestic violence programs.

[Egalitarian Thug]

20. Finally, an opinion I can get behind. It seems to me that the solution to this ongoing train wreck

is to shove the whole thing back into the religion forum, where it belongs.

[defacto7]

37. Agreed....

It's had it's time in the light of day and needs to go back to confines where less offence is taken. Anyway, the pope thing has gone on long enough and it's no longer GD by DU definition. That's not to say anything should be locked; it's just time to lead it out of general discussion.

[davidpdx]

39. I have and have had friends who are Catholic

While I respect their right to their religious beliefs, I disagree with the church. It doesn't make them any less of a friend though.

The person who I am friends with now who is Catholic I'd describe as deeply religious and it doesn't bother me. The other person was a friend in hs with whom I lost contact with (as usually happens) and haven't heard from for years.