This anti-Catholic crap is getting to be annoying

[King_Klonopin]

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 01:53 PM - Edit history (2)

not to mention insulting and condescending (i.e. If you are
a Catholic, then you must be either evil or an idiot.)

These posts are the equivalent to my responding with:
"If you don't believe as I do, then you're going to Hell; and God likes
me better than you!" Such statements would be rightfully dismissed
as a proselytizing rant. Well, I'm tired of the proselytizing rants of the
church-haters who want Catholics to abandon their faith and beliefs.

It's easy to sit upon a throne of judgment and point out the faults
of a person or an institution. The republicans do it all the time when
they criticize and belittle "The Federal Government", which has its obvious
faults, but also employs a lot of good people and does a lot of good for
a lot people.

The Catholic Church is a living, evolving, HUMAN organism -- just like
you and me. It's never been perfect and never will be -- just like you
and me. And evil has made its way into the fold many times, no doubt.
Jesus warned us that there would be "wolves in sheep's clothing",
"false prophets" and bad shepherds. How should I respond?

Should I take the easy way out by abandoning my faith and my church, or
should I stay and be part of a force for the good? Should I dwell on the
horrible things people in the church have done, or should I choose to
focus on what is right and good about my faith?

These repeated bullet-points on DU are also getting tiresome:

There are pedophile priests in the Catholic Church, therefore
the whole church and everyone in it is corrupt and evil (by association.)

There are horrible things happening all over the world which God/
Religion hasn't fixed, therefore God/Religion is useless.

All religions are corrupted, have hidden motives, cause only harm, and
all Christians are basically nutjob evangelicals. That is the very definition
of bigotry, plain and simple.

I don't shove my Catholicism down anyone's throat. Please, stop
shoving your atheism and Catholic-bashing down mine.


It has been about 12 hours since posting, and I am now officially done
with this thread.
I hope everybody feels better after getting all that stuff off their chests.

I'm still not ashamed that I'm a Catholic, despite all the efforts to convince
me otherwise.

[liberal_at_heart]

1. well said!

[HiPointDem]

2. kr

[NYC Liberal]

3. The church's official positions are homophobic, bigoted, and sexist.

If you are pro-choice, the church does not consider you to be a member in good standing.
Same goes for marriage equality, birth control, and a number of other issues.

We criticize people who remain members of the Tea Party or the GOP or the NRA, etc. Why? Because they choose to associate themselves with organizations whose official policies are bigoted and anti-progressive. I don't see anyone here complaining about criticism of the Westboro Baptist Church or the Church of Scientology.

If I were to join the Republican Party today -- retaining all of my liberal views on the issues -- and announced it here, would I not be criticized for choosing to join such an organization even if my personal views differed from the official party line? I would be, and rightfully so.

I left the church in no small part because of the bigotry in its teachings and official positions -- many of which are perfectly in line with those of the GOP/Tea Party.

[dkf]

34. Most religions are the same.

You might as well demand people give up religion period.

And do you say this to Muslims? They seem even harsher than the Catholic church to me. Am I imagining that?

[whathehell]

39. Yes they are

and no, you're not imagining a thing regarding the comparison to Muslims.

If you say anything remotely negative about Islam, you will be flamed to a crisp

as "culturally intolerant". Catholic bashing is the pastime of choice here.

[muriel_volestrangler]

76. No, we criticise Islam here too; the difference is the media is in love with Catholicism

and so there has been wall-to-wall coverage of the selection of a new leader. That's why Catholicism gets a lot of criticism too; because there are a lot of people outside DU (but also inside) saying just how important the new Pope is, and how wonderful he is.

Yes, we criticise Islam; no, we don't get flamed to a crisp for it. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2502275

Of course, specific actions by the Catholic church get criticism too, such as their political activism against birth control coverage. Just like the Mormons get criticised for their activism against LGBT equality.

[whathehell]

237. I'm well aware of what "we" do here, having been part

of the "we" for some time now, and please, one post critical of Islam is not a game changer.

If the media seems "in love" with Catholicism, it's simply because a new pope

has been elected. It's a new "story". not a sign of infatuation.

Until quite recently, America was a majority protestant country. That's changed

only recently, probably because of a rise in the Hispanic population.

[muriel_volestrangler]

238. The end of the protestant majority was due to the increase in the non-Christians, not catholics

http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated/nones-on-the-rise.aspx

Catholic numbers have stayed the same; 'unaffiliated' (and each category in it) has increased, as has 'other faith'. Interestingly, among Hispanics, catholicism is on the decline:



http://www.gallup.com/poll/160691/catholic-hispanic-population-less-religious-shrinking.aspx

[whathehell]

239. Okay.

I'll take two out of three.

[cpwm17]

84. If someone condemns a Muslim's or Catholic's humanity

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:34 PM - Edit history (1)

they deserve to be criticized. That's what anti-Muslim bigots frequently do, and they often have a pro-war agenda.

But, anyone's personal belief or the organizations they support deserve criticism if they run counter to basic human values. People can't hide behind religion to protect themselves from criticism.

[whathehell]

236. Many religions, orthodox Judaism is one, espouse women as a lower form of humanity

"I thank you God for not making me a woman" being part of a prayer...I don't

hear anyone burning with fury at them, and when it comes to misogyny,

Islam, be it in doctrine or practice, is no slouch....Those you call "anti-muslim bigots"

are often those trying to DEFEND the humanity of those that religion oppresses.

I don't see anyone on this board condemning anyone's "humanity"...I see them

condemning actions and belief systems. Period.

[NYC Liberal]

44. I'm not demanding anyone do anything.

People are free to believe what they want and belong to whatever organizations they want.

Are you asking if I criticize Muslims that belong to organizations that support and espouse bigoted beliefs and policies? Yes, I do. Why wouldn't I? I also criticize the "Log Cabin Republicans" for choosing to belong to a party that supports bigotry in spite of their personal beliefs.

[dkf]

49. Good luck criticizing most of America for being part of an evil religion.

Just remember Catholics are a small portion of believers. If you are as much of an equal opportunity basher as you say you are I expect I will see such commentary across the board?

[Tobin S.]

50. There are 1.2 billion Catholics on the planet

That's hardly a small portion of believers.

Since when is speaking the truth considered bashing?

[dkf]

57. It's certainly not a majority.

And of course bashing is speaking the truth. You think bashing someone is telling lies? Nope it's whacking them over the head with the cold hard facts. If it were a lie you would laugh it off.

[trotsky]

85. A majority of believers, no. But a majority of Christians, yes.

http://www.pewforum.org/Christian/Global-Christianity-exec.aspx

[King_Klonopin]

96. When someone posts comments to the effect that, by attending Mass,

I am giving tacit approval to pedophilia and the cover ups by the
hierarchy, or that my faith is just dumb superstition, then yes, I do say "foul".

Did you even read my OP?

You can hate the church all you want. I don't care. I have a thick skin.
You can resent all the bad things religion and the church has done over the
past 2000 years if it makes you happy. But you have no right to use such
broad strokes to paint all Catholics as supporting those evils, being fools, or
to shove your faith/beliefs (atheism) down my throat.

Mention "Catholic" on this website and the laundry-list litany of the offenses
come pouring out in screeds. That's fine. I don't like being implicated as
guilty by association. It's like sneering at all southerners because of
slavery or all Germans because of the Nazis.

[NYC Liberal]

106. It isn't about being personally guilty or even "giving tacit approval" of things.

It's about choosing to remain a member of an organization whose official positions are bigoted, sexist, and homophobic. You wouldn't be a member of the Tea Party or the GOP if you supported things LGBT rights, were pro-choice, etc. - would you?

If you are pro-choice, if you support birth control or marriage equality, the official Church position would be that you are not a member in good standing. From John Paul II:

It has also been noted that there is a tendency on the part of some Catholics to be selective in their adherence to the Church’s moral teachings. It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a "good Catholic" and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.

The entire memberships of Call to Action and Planned Parenthood in Lincoln, NE, were excommunicated at one point a few years ago.

Why belong to an organization that does not consider you a good member and that might even kick you out if it knew about your views?

[Arugula Latte]

173. You should understand, there is A LOT of resentment of the way the Church has shoved ITS policies

down our throats. Look at those assholes who testified in the U.S. Congress in favor of limiting access to contraception. In 20fucking12!!! As a woman, that infuriates me everything I picture all those disgusting religious zealot men in front of the panel (and, yes, other religions were represented, too. A pox on them, too!) I don't see atheists taking steps to limit people's rights to use birth control or marry the person they love. Unlike the Catholic Church.

So when you say we have "no right" to "shove" our "faith/beliefs (atheism) down my throat" (what, by sounding off on a discussion board?) it rings hollow. Very hollow.

[King_Klonopin]

177. I am not the Catholic Church

I am a Catholic. I am a Christian. I believe in God.
What is so hard about this?

Maybe this won't ring hollow:

Star Member kas125 (1,982 posts)
21. Wrong. Going to a chuch is a choice and like I told a friend of mine,

View profile

Last edited Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:44 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
if choose to enter a Catholic church, you may as well put a sign on your forehead that says "I support child rape." No excuses, if you choose to go there, you choose to support what they have done and continue to do. Citizens have no choice about what their gov't does in their names, the only thing they can do is make sure they protest enough to get their names published in the news, as I have, so history will record that we didn't support the madness.

If you can't see the offensiveness in that post, I give up!
There's plenty others just like it.

[Arugula Latte]

183. You complained about "shoving beliefs" down people's throats.

I gave you a solid example of how your church does that -- in real life, not on a liberal discussion board. It is to give you some insight into why so many people are angry with your institution. Centuries of repression, and it's still going on today -- we have to fight it in modern times in this country. As a woman, I feel that that church, along with other churches such as the Mormon church and evangelical protestant churches, are my enemy. And if Islamic leaders were testifying in front of Congress that we should limit women's rights, I'd include them in the list, too.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

217. well said, and it needed saying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. Try this...be critical of the hierarchy

You will even have Catholics in the laity join you. Members of the laity are so thrilled about the actions of their unelected leaders that the plate is running dry at mass. That is how many Catholics are voting, with dollars and cents.

Leave individual Catholics the fuck alone. Blaming individual Catholics for the actions of the leadership is ignorant at best, bigoted, there I said it, at worst.

[NYC Liberal]

99. Yes, you will. In fact, it's something that I've always said.

[backscatter712]

126. I can't demand much, but since you brought it up...

Hey, what response did you expect on a board with a whole bunch of atheist members?

See my sig...

[pnwmom]

137. When you criticize Teapartiers and GOP you aren't criticizing a group of ALLIES.

The majority of Catholics are Democrats, and Catholics even constitute significant percentage of DUers.

These posts are slaps in the face to them.

[NYC Liberal]

151. So if a Democrat joins an anti-choice organization, or an anti-gay organization --

even if their personal views differ from that organizations official positions -- that shouldn't be a topic of discussion?

Or how about the NRA? Should membership in the NRA be immune from criticism? There are many Democrats who belong to the NRA.

[pnwmom]

165. Most Catholics grew up with the Church, they didn't suddenly decide to join it as adults.

The attachment goes much deeper than you realize.

It's part of the DNA. And just as all of us have some flawed parts of our DNA, so does the Church

[muriel_volestrangler]

184. You see, this is the problem - your belief that "it's part of the DNA"

No, it's not; if someone has that attitude, it's part of the indoctrination they received as biddable children. I realise that children don't get a choice about baptism, but they do about confirmation. Anyone who was confirmed, and has not since said they have left the church, has chosen to be in the Roman Catholic church. If the church itself thought ""it's part of the DNA", then they wouldn't bother with the confirmation process.

[whathehell]

241. If it's not part of the DNA, it is, like some other aspects of upbringing, part of conditioning

Have you been able to throw off all of YOUR conditioning, whatever that may consist of?

[muriel_volestrangler]

242. Anyone who's been conditioned as a child by a homophobic organisation

needs all the help they can get to leave. The first thing to do is get them to recognise the conditioning, and tell them they can have the help in leaving.

If the Catholic church has brainwashed all the children who grew up in it, then we really do need to fight it, don't we?

[whathehell]

244. When I was growing up in the Sixties, the church didn't even mention homosexuality.

and I've no idea how much they do now. Hell, in the Sixties

they barely mentioned abortion.

Believe it or not, Muriel, homophobia is not the most

pressing issue in everyone's world. There are others

equally oppressed, like the half of humanity designated

"female", for instance.

[muriel_volestrangler]

245. Well, the RCC's attitude to women does leave a lot to be desired too

such as its attempts to control birth control availability not just to those who choose to listen to it, but of anyone unlucky enough to be employed by one of its subsidiaries, or by a Catholic zealot. But it really has made large efforts to be publicly homophobic, while it claims to have the best interests of women at heart, so I brought up the homophobia.

It remains a problem that if the church has the ability to condition the children it has influence over, to the extent they are psychologically unable to leave it, then it counts as a dangerous cult which needs to be fought.

[whathehell]

246. No kidding...

but so do other religions, institutions, and cultures.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe the Catholic Church is any more a "dangerous cult" than

Islam, Christian Fundamentalism, Conservative Judaism and any number of institutions

that are less than gay and female friendly.

[muriel_volestrangler]

247. No need to apologise - I agree those are at least as bad, and often worse

The Roman Catholic Church has been in the news so much, with a lot of people saying what an important institution it is. So, inevitably, it's had a lot of criticism about its failings.

[whathehell]

248. Well, thanks for saying that.

Getting a non-defensive response on DU is rare these days, so I appreciate it

[NYC Liberal]

189. "Part of the DNA"? No.

I grew up as a member of the Church; I was raised in a Catholic family; I was educated in Catholic schools from age 9. I know very well how it goes. At the end of the day, everyone has to make a choice: do they choose to belong to an organization whose leaders and official positions are bigoted, sexist, and homophobic, or don't they?

When I was a young teenager and first started forming my own views about the world and thinking about what I believed, I made the decision that I could not in good conscience belong to an organization whose core principles were so abhorrent to my own. It is for the same reason that I am not a member of the NRA or the Republican Party.

[pnwmom]

203. That may explain your vehemence then.

You made the decision so everyone else must, too.

[NYC Liberal]

204. I never demanded anything of anyone.

Everyone is free to decide for themselves. I can't tell other people what to do. Each person must decide for themselves if their conscience will allow them to on the one hand support liberal causes (marriage equality, LGBT rights, choice, opposition to sexism) and on the other belong to an organization that stands firmly against all of them.

I made my choice. My conscience would not allow me to do it. Others must make their own.

[whathehell]

240. Thank you.....n/t

[TDale313]

4. Not Catholic, but couldn't agree more.

We're losing really good DU members because of the tone some are determined to take on this. It's bullying, plain and simple, and really no different than fundamentalist Christians or Muslims shoving their beliefs down other's throats because, well, anyone who disagrees/sees things differently must be stupid and/or evil. Yeah, I know, I know... It's ok because *you* really do know better than everyone else.

[Phillip McCleod]

11. no it's very different because this is a progressive board..

..and people are complaining about the catholic hierarchy's stance on reproductive rights, lgbt rights, women's rights.. as well as yes recalling some very newsworthy recent events leading to this new pope.

it's not bullying to absolutely call out bullshit sexism, homophobia, and anti-choice/contraception positions, and criminal coverups in the catholic hierarchy, without pointing the finger at any individual catholic. and that's not going to stop at all. progressives are going to continue to call out *any* institution that impedes progress on social justice issues.

to suggest that catholic believers and the catholic hierarchy both deserve an exemption on these central issues, and to loudly call people bullies and bigots when we refuse to stop pointing out the utterly obvious, is the bully tactic.

that is the bully tactic. not pointing out the obvious, plain on its' face facts that the church hierarchy opposes many if not most of the positions that this site stands for.

[whathehell]

40. Thank you...I'm glad the sane, non-haters are beginning to speak up.

Bullying is bullying.

[sigmasix]

5. dont walk down the garbage-filled sidewalk

Don't read those posts- my mother used to tell me to ignore the kids that called me names; it is the best way to get thier goat while convincing them to leave you alone. If you have a choice between strolling down a walkway filled with beauty- or stumbling through the garbage of one overflowing with filth, which would you choose?
Think of DU as a collection of walkways, each begun by a new OP. Avoid the filth and DU can be as pleasant as a spring morning in the woods.

[olddots]

14. I agree 100%

avoid the mass hysteria

[JDPriestly]

6. You have to understand that a lot of the anti-Catholic feeling

is simply the "karma"of the Church ricocheting back to it.

Remember, for centuries the Church refused to respect those with religious beliefs that did not comply with the Church's.

Even today, the Catholic Church theoretically does not permit its own members to share in Communion if they married in the Catholic Church then divorced and remarried. But even today, the Catholic Church does not care a bit if a person was married in a Protestant or other religion, divorces and then marries within the Catholic rites and the Catholic Church.

That's just one of the ways in which the Catholic Church places itself above other religions and shows contempt for other religions.

I'm sorry to have to remind you of this, but for those of us raised in other religions such as the various Protestant religions, it is very hard to hear Catholics complain about intolerance when the Catholic Church is unique in its history of intolerance.

The Inquisition, the ouster of the Hugenots from France, forced conversions and many other extreme practices of the past are not yet forgotten by people of other more tolerant religions.

Please be patient. Catholics need to take this time to think about what their Church, not their Christian faith, but the organization of their Church has done to itself, its members and those it has rejected over the centuries.

Many, many Americans, especially those descended from early Americans, came here to escape persecution by the Catholic Church. The family histories abound in tales of Catholic excesses and persecutions.

You just have to show others the understanding you want them to show you.

It's not about you personally. You are not responsible for the historic excesses of the Catholic Church. This is a good time for Catholics to think about why they are Catholics.

Peace, but I have to post these reminders.

On edit, I have to especially add a reminder of the historic animosity and cruelty of the Catholic Church toward Jews in Europe. The Catholic Church placed Jews on a Trail of Tears that lasted for centuries and centuries.

The last Catholic shrine that was based on an utter lie about Jewish people was finally done away with in Austria in the late 1970s. And that was long after the end of WWII. Jewish school children were taken to that horrible place. And there was no factual basis for the anti-Jewish claims that the shrine was based on.

Religious tolerance is of the utmost important. That is something we all need to remember. I think it is wonderful that so many Catholics are coming to appreciate that fact. One of the members of my family married a Catholic way back in WWII. The intolerance of the Catholic Church made things very difficult for her. What goes around comes around. That's true for all of us. We all need to carefully watch to be sure we are tolerant of others' beliefs.

[TDale313]

7. Well, I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition!

But then, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.)

[struggle4progress]

8. That's rather like being angry with the Federal government today, because of Sherman's march

to the sea

[JDPriestly]

10. Lots of Southerners were when I was a young girl.

I think some of them still are.

But the religious persecution that many non-Catholics experienced in Europe is something that was very, very personal. If it happened in your family, you tell the stories to your children and so religious prejudices are passed on.

The Catholic Church claims to be the one true Christian Church. Those who disagree with that are not likely to care much for the Catholic Church. As I wrote, tolerance must be our goal, not just of non-Catholics but also of Catholics and of the Catholic Church itself. A lot of progress was made some years ago toward religious tolerance within Christianity. Unfortunately, we appear to be backtracking.

But Catholics live in a glass house and should not throw stones when it comes to religious intolerance. It's just a fact. Other religions can also be intolerant, but the history of the Catholic Church is just astounding in that respect.

[Arugula Latte]

227. I'm angry with the Church (the Church, not DU Catholics) for what it does today

Two recent examples:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/50827890/ns/politics/
U.S. Roman Catholic bishops stepped up their battle against President Obama's contraceptives policy on Friday by urging Congress to use its fiscal debate to free religious employers from a mandate requiring insurance coverage for birth control...

http://mynorthwest.com/11/659971/Catholic-Church-steps-up-local-efforts-to-stop-gay-marriage
The battle over same sex marriage in our state is taking a big step from the political arena to the pulpit, as the Catholic Church has formally endorsed signature gathering at local parishes in the effort to overturn the state's recently passed marriage equality law...

[struggle4progress]

230. I was responding to the prior poster's remarks about events centuries ago

[Arugula Latte]

231. Right. But I'm saying, the anti-Catholic Church feeling is fueled by its actions today.

It's not like it is just espousing its particular brand of dogma for its own particular sect of the cult of Christ and leaving it at that. It's not occurring in a vacuum. They are actively taking steps to trample on large groups of people, still, to this day, in this country. So it's not like those of us who are disgusted by the Church's positions and hierarchy are just pulling stuff out of thin air. We feel embattled by the power of this institution.

[King_Klonopin]

19. Every religion has had its share of being persecuted.

No one has a monopoly on being either the victims or the perpetrators
of intolerance. I did not ask for pity nor sympathy.

Now I know why residents of "The South" get so exasperated
when they are stigmatized by the shame of their past sins of slavery
and racism -- all are guilty through association and must suffer the
consequences. When will it no longer be necessary to remind them of
their past?

If we go back further, St. Paul killed followers of Jesus before converting
to Christianity himself, the Romans killed Christians just for sport and
entertainment, the Nazis sent Catholics to concentration camps, and
Catholics have always been on the KKK shitlist.

The Inquisition has the same relevance to me as the Roman Colosseum.
Early Americans came here to avoid persecution of King George V, as I recall.
(You forgot to mention North vs South Ireland in the list of Catholic excesses
and transgressions.)

I know your points are all historically accurate, but they just ignore all
of the salient points I have just tried to make.

Thanks for the pat on the head, but do you need to remind me of the
church's terrible acts, or simply want to remind me?

[JDPriestly]

26. I'm reminding you so that you can put some of the intolerance you feel directed

toward you into a historical context.

We can all work on being more tolerant.

My mother used to say that it's the faults in others that we have in ourselves that bother us the most.

So, if we are annoyed by the intolerance of others, maybe we need to look inside ourselves a little more.

I agree that it is unfair to think that all Catholics are part of the corruption of the Catholic Church. I don't think that is what most DUers believe, but I could be wrong. That idea is pretty absurd.

I wrote earlier today that I changed my religion when I was very young. My family did not like it, but now after all these years, they understand that it was the best thing for me to do. (I was not Catholic.) I also wrote what I really believe and that is that each of us has our own true religion (even people who don't think that they do), but it isn't necessarily the religion that we think we belong to. We each have our own inner religion.

I have personally seen a log of good work achieved by the Catholic Church and charities so, while I am quite aware of the historic corruption and foolishness in the Catholic hierarchy, I am also aware of the wonderful things it has done. And I also realize that not all of the Catholic hierarchy is corrupt.

But I do think that the Catholic Church's karma is coming back to it. That will be a good thing and may be what finally puts the Catholic Church on an even better track.

[King_Klonopin]

100. Why do you slap the label of "intolerance" on me?

I'm trying to defend myself and my faith, to my peril
I might add. Candy-coated patronizing is all this is.

[JDPriestly]

233. You say you are not ashamed of being Catholic.

You should not be ashamed of being Catholic.

I have never been personally hurt by the Catholic Church so I don't have a problem with it or with Catholics, but I know that some people have been hurt by attitudes of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. That is why you are feeling the heat. Just don't take it personally. You haven't hurt anyone. And you should not be ashamed of being Catholic any more than I should be ashamed of my religion. As I explained, your religion is what you are inside. What religion you belong to is a formality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

224. Karma? We justify present day bigotry *against individuals*

On the Inquisition? Really?

I thought I have read all.

First off, I prefer the Golden Mean " do onto others as you'd like done to yourself," to Karma.

Secondly, be as critical as you want of the hierarchy, attacking individual members for being Catholic, nothing more, many who are just as critical of the hierarchy..is bigotry, plain and simple.

Moreover, let's assume for a second every liberal catholic, not just in the US, world wide, left the Church...and I mean every one, laity, hierarchy, every last one...(we would call that a schism, another story) tell me, what pressure would there be for that hyper conservative hierarchy that remains to change? Who among their now hyper conservative laity would be interested in changing?

The Church, as large as it is does change, but change takes decades, at times centuries. It is the nature of the organization and balancing things that now I understand, condescending I know, most Americans don't really get. It is universal, and your first world priorities and values are all but priorities in small towns in the African bush, or the Andes.

Yup, at this point I need to do this.

in spades.

[JDPriestly]

232. Today's bigotry is not justified by history, but it is explained by it.

I guess we could say that bigotry and hate reproduce themselves generation after generation. My family struggled because of its strong Protestant faith including strong abolitionist tradition in recent centuries. And the stories are passed from generation to generation.

That explains many of the problems that religions have with each other. It isn't an excuse. It is the place where you begin to understand intolerance. Oh. Yes. My grandmother said . . . . And that is why I think . . . .

That doesn't may my thoughts better. Hopefully, it makes it easier for me (and others) to distance myself from my thoughts, from my prejudices and think afresh.

So when I said that about the history, I was hoping that people would recognize that we are talking about ghosts from the pasts of our families. And some of them really were ghosts. There were many wars and much persecution by the various religions. There still are and is in some places in the world. We are so lucky to have our First Amendment, and when we have violated it, we have often paid dearly.

[whathehell]

43. Thanks. You can add Oliver Cromwell to the pantheon of Protestant murderers of Catholics too

He did a fine job of slaughtering Catholics in Ireland...He even kissed

the ground and thanked God for giving him the privilege of doing so.

Elizabeth I killed her Catholic cousin, Mary Queen of Scots, and persecuted and killed other Catholics as well.

[atreides1]

83. Mary wasn't killed for her Catholicism

She was executed for her part in a plot to have Elizabeth I assasinated.

English Catholics did in fact worship with their Protestant neighbours, at least until this was formally forbidden by Pope Pius V's 1570 bull, Regnans in Excelsis, which also declared that Elizabeth was not a rightful queen and should be deposed, and formally excommunicated her.

And then there was Mary I, also known as "Bloody Mary" and her laws regarding English Protestants:

In the month following her accession, Mary issued a proclamation that she would not compel any of her subjects to follow her religion, but by the end of September leading reforming churchmen, such as John Bradford, John Rogers, John Hooper, Hugh Latimer and Thomas Cranmer were imprisoned. Mary's first Parliament, which assembled in early October 1553, declared the marriage of her parents valid, and abolished Edward's religious laws. Church doctrine was restored to the form it had taken in the 1539 Six Articles, which, for example, re-affirmed clerical celibacy. Married priests were deprived of their benefices.

Mary had always rejected the break with Rome instituted by her father and the establishment of Protestantism by Edward VI. She and her husband wanted England to reconcile with Rome. Philip persuaded Parliament to repeal the Protestant religious laws passed by Mary's father, thus returning the English church to Roman jurisdiction. Reaching an agreement took many months, and Mary and Pope Julius III had to make a major concession: the monastery lands confiscated under Henry were not returned to the church but remained in the hands of the new landowners, who were very influential. By the end of 1554, the pope had approved the deal, and the Heresy Acts were revived.

Under the Heresy Acts, numerous Protestants were executed in the Marian Persecutions. Many rich Protestants, including John Foxe, chose exile, and around 800 left the country. The first executions occurred over a period of five days in early February 1555: John Rogers on 4 February, Laurence Saunders on 8 February, and Rowland Taylor and John Hooper on 9 February. The imprisoned Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Cranmer was forced to watch Bishops Ridley and Latimer being burned at the stake. Cranmer recanted, repudiated Protestant theology, and rejoined the Catholic faith. Under the normal process of the law, he should have been absolved as a repentant. Mary, however, refused to reprieve him. On the day of his burning, he dramatically withdrew his recantation. All told 283 were executed, most by burning. The burnings proved so unpopular, that even Alfonso de Castro, one of Philip's own ecclesiastical staff, condemned them, and Philip's adviser, Simon Renard, warned him that such "cruel enforcement" could "cause a revolt". Mary persevered with the policy, which continued until her death and exacerbated anti-Catholic and anti-Spanish feeling among the English people. The victims of the persecutions became lauded as martyrs.

Reginald Pole, the son of Mary's executed governess, and once considered a suitor, arrived as papal legate in November 1554. He was ordained a priest and appointed Archbishop of Canterbury immediately after Cranmer's death in March 1556.

Nobody has clean hands, as history shows.

[whathehell]

213. As I recall, the suspicion that Mary was part of the plot to kill Elizabeth was never proven

There were others at the time who wanted Elizabeth gone, believing Mary to be the rightful heir to the throne,

but, as I understand it, the "fact" of Mary being a part of that scheme, continues to be disputed by historians,

though Elizabeth clearly believed it.

As to the rest, yes I'm well aware that Catholics killed protestants, but the reverse happened as well,

and in as great a number. Yes, as history calls it, it's "Good Queen Bess" vs "Bloody Mary",

but both killed, and as we all know, history is written by the winners.

Oliver Cromwell, ranked by British historians as one of the "top ten great Britons" was a merciless,

persecutor of Catholics and slaughtered thousands in Ireland, after which

he went down on his knees to thank God for the privilege of of doing so.

Yes, I'm well aware that few, if any, have "clean hands" in these religious wars, but the

emphasis here seems to be on the "dirty hands" of one side, but not the other.

[muriel_volestrangler]

81. But it's not just about history: In Same-Sex Marriage Fight, Catholic Church Gives More Than $1 Mi

Continuing its efforts to fight same-sex marriage in four ballot measures around the United States, the Catholic Church is now the top donor to the cause among religious institutions, according to a new report from the Human Rights Campaign.

This fall in Washington, Maryland and Maine, voters will decide whether same-sex marriage should be legal, and in Minnesota, voters will weigh in on a ballot measure amending the state's constitution to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

According to recent news reports, opponents of same-sex marriage are expected to be widely outspent by gay rights advocates this election season, and recent polling has shown voters in Maryland, Maine and Washington are warming to the idea of legalizing marriage for same-sex couples. But opponents have history on their side: 32 states have previously held votes on same-sex marriage and, each time, voters have opposed it.

According to the report from HRC, a gay rights group has spent $4.4 million across the four ballot states, while the Catholic Church has spent at least $1.1 million on efforts to oppose the measures. A significant portion of this money comes from the Knights of Columbus, a fraternal organization within the church, while other funds come from dioceses nationwide. The church's donations amount to roughly a quarter of the effort across the four states to fight same-sex marriage, and in Minnesota, the Catholic Church has funded more than half of the efforts to support the constitutional ban, according to HRC.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/17/marriage-catholic-church-donations-hrc_n_1975130.html

[TreasonousBastard]

20. My grandmother left the Catholic Church when...

a priest told her my grandfather, who had just dropped dead from a heart attack, would go straight to hell because he didn't go to church. my father also told me about the horrific nuns he had to put up with before he went to public school.

But, the Catholic kids I grew up with knew nothing of that sort of thing. Amazing how one or two generations can change one's view of things.

We all know about the Crusades, the Inquisition, counter-popes, the War of the Roses, the counter-reformation, witch hunting, capitulating to the Nazis, and pedophile priests, among other things that church has little to be proud of.

But, to get right down to it, this is human greed, stupidity, and penchant for violence perverting the organization, just as it can do with any organization, and all too often has. Blame Philip II or anyone else who started some of this crap, not the church itself which has the ability to reform and better itself with new and better people in charge.

One of Boccaccio's stories was about a stranger who witnessed the worst behavior of Catholics and ended up converting. When asked why, he said that if the members acted this badly and the church still survived, there must be a higher power behind it.

Vatican II showed us the Roman church can change, if only slowly, and this new Pope is a clear return to the charity role of the church.

[JDPriestly]

23. I hope that we will really see change especially with regard to women,

homosexuals, etc.

Individual Catholics I have known in modern times did not seem to agree with their Church on its unrealistic and extreme stances.

We all need to be more tolerant, but Catholics need to understand that their Church has quite a history and therefore is not viewed by non-Catholics as a model of tolerance.

Perhaps that image is something the new Pope can help to change.

[TreasonousBastard]

32. I'll never live to see a female Pope, or even a bishop, but...

there's that slim possibility I'll see women in the priesthood. Abortion, homosexuality... with luck at least they will recede into the background and not cause trouble until resolved.

It took them 300 years to figure out a way to doctrinally accept Galileo even though they knew it was true for maybe 200 of them and taught it in their schools and universities. The wheels of Vatican truth and justice turn exceedingly slow.

The new Pope's image of humility is being established, and for any cleric that is a good beginning.

[JDPriestly]

37. I sincerely hope that the promise of the Catholic Church will become reality for

its members and that the Catholic Church will focus on becoming tolerant of all those who worship God sincerely but are of different faiths. That would be wonderful.

[RainDog]

36. My inlaws left the church when the parish priest told her

the parish priest told her she could not use birth control, even tho her doctor had told her that another pregnancy would likely kill her. She had four other children and one still born.

She and her husband left the church because the church had so little regard for her life that they would pronounce a death sentence for her rather than have her use a birth control pill.

This is still official doctrine. While some may think that doesn't matter, others walk when such repulsive dictates are the doctrine of a belief system.

[TreasonousBastard]

41. I've heard many such stories, and...

often the priests talk of sacrifice and life is tough so suck it up. Rotten thing to do to someone who has devoted her life to the church.

But, I've also heard of priests quietly saying that even if it's actually a sin, and we're not all that sure it is, there's no sin that can't be forgiven, so go live your life as you see fit and don't worry. The Church has spoken on it, but we don't really know what God thinks.

Eventually they'll get it. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[RainDog]

170. Yeah, too bad Savita Halappanavar

didn't have a priest whispering into the ears of the Catholic-run hospital that killed her by denying her an abortion.

[whathehell]

45. My friend's father in law told her that her parents were in Hell because they died Catholics..

..and that was only last year.

She was raised Catholic but married a Baptist and converted. That didn't

stop her lovely father in law, a Baptist minister, from delivering the "bad news" as it were.

You are correct...There are idiots and monsters in every religion and nationality on earth.

[TreasonousBastard]

51. This sort of thing fries me...

there's plenty of blood in the Old Testament, and Paul's letters aren't nicest pieces of work around, but I grew up learning that the central themes of Christianity are Jesus' words where all that nastiness is over and the Sermon on the Mount is the new 10 Commandments-- and aren't all that far off from them anyway.

But, all the love and peace stuff gets lost with the people and their own personal power trips or fantasies that aren't used to help you or make your life any easier, but to blame you for being some sort of indefinable bad person.

Mark Twain had a rant where he put lions, tigers, sheep, and other critters in a cage and they lived together peaceably for a time. But then he put a Roman Catholic, a Presbyterian minister, an Arab, a Baptist and a Jew in another cage and they were all dead within the hour after disagreeing on some minor theological point.

[whathehell]

215. Yes, it's terrible, isn't it?

The "love" part of Christ's teachings is so often forgotten...You were lucky

to have grown up learning the positive, rather than harsh interpretations.

By the way, thanks for the Mark Twain story. I've heard a lot of his little

gems, but I hadn't heard that one. As usual, he was right on the money!

[King_Klonopin]

98. Karma is supposed to boomerang back on the one who

committed the offense -- not someone else 1500 years later.

What you describe is comeuppance, or vengeance.

[Moonwalk]

161. How about for those who allowed pedophiles to keep molesting children? How about...

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 02:00 PM - Edit history (1)

...for those who kept all homosexuals, of all religions, from getting their secular rights by funneling money and such into secular politics? How about those who, just this year, refused to let insurance companies give contraception to women, whatever their religion, whatever their need or reason? (This, by the way, is rather like having an Islamic employer who refuses to give you money if you're going to use it to buy wine. Because it's against his religion, he won't see his money going to it even if you earned that money and it's no business of his how you spend it).

I'm sorry, but this isn't "karma" so much as "you reap what you sow." If the Church wants to tell its own "no contraception, no marriage for gays--etc." that's fine. But when it funnels money into politics, into making anti-gay laws that affect all gays of all religions, into taking away rules that affect all women, and keep pedophiles out there molesting children (And when it comes to child abuse, I never see DU taking sides due to religion or any other affiliation. We uniformly condemn any organization that allows and even condones it. Did you see anyone here calling others anti-Semitic for criticizing the Orthodox Jewish branch that refused to bring a rabbi to justice for molesting young girls? Did you see any here arguing against slamming Islam when criticizing an Islamic group for whipping a young girl made pregnant by her father? Is it really Catholic bashing, intolerance and bullying for us to criticize the Church for decades of allowing priests and cardinals to molest little children?)

When it does that, then your Church is not going to get a lotta love. You seem to want us to give the church a grace period, or just total forgiveness. I'm sorry, but after all it's done RECENTLY, it isn't trusted. It isn't liked. And it's on probation. YOU would say the same about the GOP. Not for the sins of Nixon or Reagan, maybe not even for what Bush & Co. did some five years ago. But for what the GOP did just this last year with it's gerrymandering and refusal to compromise on anything, etc.

Any organization that takes a political position, and funnels its money into affecting everyone's life--not just that of its members--can be and should be judged. And if we judge that it has done damage--a lot of damage for a long while, then it doesn't get a pass when it comes to criticism. And it doesn't get forgiveness. And it doesn't get a grace period. It has to earn those. You're taking this personally, but you shouldn't be. You should take this as a good thing because it's a wake-up call to the church--it makes them realize (as the GOP has not yet) that they can't do what they like with impunity, with no repercussions. And maybe, in realizing this, those who lead this organization--and decide where the money goes--will be more humble and tolerant and give more to those in its ranks who are seen as doing good (like those nuns helping the poor). And in doing so they will earn back the trust and respect of not just Catholics, but those outside of the religion who have had their rights denied because of the organization's INTOLERANCE, bullying and bigotry (for gays, for women).

The church is reaping what it sowed--and that was recently. The opinion you see of the Catholic church is not unearned or unwarranted.

[King_Klonopin]

168. The issue isn't whether the Catholic Church is guilty of doing bad things

Have at it all you want.

The issue is that Catholics here at DU get verbally
slapped, lectured and shamed for being Catholic, or
for just believing in God in general.

It's like the "all southerners are racists" sentiment.

[Moonwalk]

187. So, you wouldn't criticize a Southern who had a confederate flag and belonged to...

...an organization that supported segregation and argued that slavery was actually a good thing for the slaves?

You're actually comparing apples and oranges with your "all southerners are racists" example of what's being said to you. Let's say I meet someone from Alabama. They didn't ask to be born and raised there. They didn't choose to have the accent they have. And being born and raised in the south doesn't mean that they will be racist. So if I accuse them of being racist simply because they are from Alabama, then I'm being unfair and bigoted.

But if someone was raised in a republican family, and if, in adulthood, they remain a member of the GOP, going to it's conventions, giving money to it, then even if they argue that they, personally, don't believe in all that GOP stands for or does, I can still say that in remaining in that organization, they are supporting its bad doings. A southerner can't not-be a southern. But being a member of the GOP is a choice. A far more apt comparison for you (and to better understand where people criticizing you are coming from) than the "all southerners are racist" would be, "Anyone who is a republican is against Obamacare." That may not be true, but the republicans keep trying to kill Obamacare; so how you can be one, and support that organization and still say you're in favor of Obamacare?

Now we will grant that all organizations have their saints and sinners, their angelic sides and devil sides. I don't think we here at DU can or should accost you for remaining in the Catholic church if we're not also willing to accost, say, those nuns on the bus who battled with the Bishops over helping the poor rather than preaching against abortion. There may, indeed, be republicans who favor Obamacare.

BUT....BUT...I think we can ask what you, like those nuns, are doing to fight this organization from the inside and bring down those who keep leading it into sin rather than into sainthood. And if you aren't doing anything, and if you are giving it money and support by belonging rather than battling for its soul, then I think we can offer criticism. Just as we would criticize anyone belonging to the GOP, giving money and time and support to the GOP, who wasn't trying to bring it back from it's Tea Party madness. And I'm afraid that just like someone who says they belong to the GOP, you do have to prove that you are on the side of the angels. Because the organization you belong to has badly damaged the trust it might have had in its goodness. And that makes it harder for some to believe that those belonging to it, seemingly supporting it, aren't (knowingly or unknowingly) supporting the devil.

Wouldn't it be the same for you if you met someone who claimed to be a registered republican? Wouldn't you want to know why they were still a member and what they were doing to change the GOP? And again, the fault for this is with the Church. If it was Amish, not involved with politics and making secular laws that affect everyone, no one would care why you belonged to it, etc. I'm sorry, but your Church has so too much world power (and power in the US) that your private matter of faith becomes a political and social statement. Just as many Jews have to defend their faith in light of its organized support of Israel. That's just the way it is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

223. But you are attacking the southerner who is standing to the guy

Flying the stars and bars, cause he's southerner.

We call that bigotry.

[Hekate]

9. My mom grew up in the 1930s and remembers the KKK reviling Roman Catholics

We mostly know them today as white supremacists and segregationists, lynchers of black people. But they were also anti-Semitic, and to round it all out had a pretty good hate on for Roman Catholics, too. Since her family was Irish Catholic, this had an impact on her, and she told me about it when I was a kid.

In my own lifetime, I have to say I have never experienced anything like what is going on at DU right now. I keep fighting back, along with you and a few others, but I feel like it is a losing battle here.

Many people were hurt personally, and those I can understand. Crimes need to be redressed, criminals need to be tried in secular courts and sent to prison. I'm with you all the way.

Others think they have to wave the banner for the victims, but they leave their sense at the door. Their devotion to this cause blinds them to others.

And then there are the ones I am beginning to think of as vicious, and I wonder if they were raised anti-Catholic the way some people are raised racist. I mean that, DUers. Some behavior is beyond the pale and discredits those who tolerate it.

The usual disclaimer: I was not raised Catholic.

Hekate

[JDPriestly]

12. The Catholic Church has been its own worst enemy in this respect for

hundreds of years. The Inquisition is something we all learn about in our history books. In some families, it was reality to be the victim of it. People fled Spain. The Hugenots fled France. Then there were the Protestant Irish.

Tolerance is something we all have to strive for. And when we feel that others are being intolerant of us, we need to think about our own conduct in that regard.

I remember not so long ago one of my children was in the first grade in another country in which children attended classes divided into Protestant classes and Catholic classes -- in public schools.

I was walking my young daughters to school one day when a fellow student yelled out in that language "Protestant girls are whores." So, you see, religious intolerance is very real and not just a thing of the past.

I'm glad to see so many speaking out against it on DU. But I would like to see more positive responses to expressions of support for religious tolerance. It is not enough to protest when we feel that others are being intolerant of us. We need to protest all religious intolerance including intolerance of other religions.

[whathehell]

46. Do you know how many, especially in the South, opposed Jack Kennedy because of anti-Catholicism?

and please don't tell me how he was "his own worst enemy" in that regard.

I was raised Catholic, in the North, and STILL experienced anti-Catholic bigotry.

Try seeing the film "Gangs of New York". You might get a bit of a history lesson.

[ButterflyBlood]

13. Actually many of the people you're thinking of might've been raised Catholics themselves

I've found in the modern era the most vicious critics and attackers of the Catholic Church are usually ex-Catholics. I am one myself and I haven't been offended by any of the Catholic bashing on DU lately.

[struggle4progress]

17. no, in the heyday of the klan, it was a fundamentalist protestant movement of

nativists and racists: it's anti-catholic platform was part-and-parcel of its xenophobia, since a certain number of immigrants came from non-protestant europe

[ButterflyBlood]

86. The heyday of the klan is not today

And I doubt DU Cstholic bashers are Neo-Klansmen.

[struggle4progress]

88. Hekate's remark concerned the 1930s, a time still in living memory.

[ButterflyBlood]

89. But all of this must've ceased before the 80s

That's when I was born and I've never heard someone report anti Catholic discrimination in my lifetime.

[struggle4progress]

93. I think that after WWII a certain fraction of Americans set out to fight prejudice

against minorities. The Civil War amendments had been there in the Constitution for some time, but they were frequently ignored. All manner of discrimination was legal until the 1950s, and the effort to end it has continued to the present. Kennedy and his supporters had to tailor their 1960 campaign to deal with anti-Catholic prejudice. But by the mid-1960s, it was becoming much less acceptable to be openly bigoted against anyone, and open bigots like the segregationists began to get less favorable press. At present, open prejudice against folk is not very acceptable, but if you listen carefully, you'll find indications that there's still plenty of prejudice of all sorts out there -- and it may not vanish spontaneously: it may require constant effort by people to good will to construct an open society that welcomes real diversity. There are still virulent anti-Catholics in the US, just as there are plenty of other sorts of bigots out there -- it's just not nearly as acceptable as it once was

[ForgoTheConsequence]

133. I'm not anti Catholic.

I'm anti conservative Christian. The Catholic church has aligned itself with many fundamentalist causes. My hatred for the church doesn't come from a WASP/Protestant position my hatred comes out of spite from the damage they have done to people like me.

[struggle4progress]

152. I have some issues with them: I don't understand their attitudes towards sexuality,

and I don't understand their refusal to ordain women. OTOH, they do have a real and lengthy tradition oriented towards economic and social justice

[Hekate]

175. That's a very good analysis. The extermination camps of WWII were a shock to the conscience...

... in the post-WWII era. For those with eyes to see, what happened in Europe was the exemplar of what this country (for all its manifest faults) had tried to leave behind. For those of us raised in the 1950s by that "certain fraction of Americans" there was a strong message that overt bigotry of all stripes was unacceptable. I now hear the younger generation of liberals finds words like "tolerance" to be offensive, but with photos of the camps around, "tolerance" seemed like a damned good idea in the 1950s.

Today, despite all the progress we have in fact made, there is a resurgence of nativist, xenophobic, racist thinking, and anti-Catholicism slots neatly into that, when you realize that immigrant Latinos are Catholic by a vast majority.

And surprise, surprise, it is a virulent as ever.

Thank you for your words, struggle4progress.

[greatauntoftriplets]

78. That happened in the teens and 1920s in my father's town as well.

His family was never targeted because his family lived with his grandfather, who was bigwig in the town factory.

[Egalitarian Thug]

15. I see what you did there.

Writing Church Dogma and then turn it around as an accusation. Very clever.

Except for the fact that the republicans have been overusing it for the last couple of decades.

Oh, and The Church doesn't believe in evolution, so making an argument for The Church to be an evolving organism is probably not an accepted retort.

But hey, give it another thousand years and they might eventually come around to apologizing for centuries of the persecution and murder of millions, the suppression of human progress for centuries, and the active evasion and obstruction of law in order to protect its own wealth.

If you are really sincere about not shoving your fantasies down my throat, go back to your own forum where you are free to blather on endlessly with others interested in your delusions. I promise you will never hear from me in there.

Deal?

[Hekate]

25. Um. You have confused fundamentalist Protestant ignorance with Roman Catholic theology

There are many branches of Christianity. Mainstream Protestantism (Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist) and Roman Catholicism are not by nature anti-science over the past 150 years or so, although their understanding of science has -- shall we say, "evolved." All-American fundamentalist Bible-thumpers who take the Bible literally and are too ignorant to even know that the Bible was written down by multiple authors in multiple centuries -- those are the people who tend to be anti-science.

Here's Wikipedia, for a start:

Catholic Church and evolution
Since the publication of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species in 1859, the attitude of the Catholic Church on the theory of evolution has slowly been refined. For about 100 years, there was no authoritative pronouncement on the subject. In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution, provided that Christians believe that the individual soul is a direct creation by God and not the product of purely material forces. Today, the Church's unofficial position is an example of theistic evolution, also known as evolutionary creation, stating that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. Moreover, the Church teaches that the process of evolution is a planned and purpose-driven natural process, guided by God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution

[Egalitarian Thug]

30. Pretty clever there, especially for one who uses the name of a Pagan Goddess, commonly adopted

(inaccurately) by contemporary Wiccans, but still a complete failure (you really should scroll all the way down and check the references if you want to really carry off the scholar facade).

Even the soft peddled evasion you pasted from Wikipedia, doesn't address the issue. I attended and aced Regis College (Jesuit in case you don't know) for two years before I had enough and moved on. On the plus side, one of the few legitimately brilliant people I've ever met was a professor there (philosophy) and he taught me more in a semester than most people learn in a lifetime.

[Hekate]

38. Golly

I stand by my statements. Could have dug deeper than Wiki, no doubt, but didn't take the time.

Hekate is a Greek goddess, one of the Demetrian trinity. Demeter, Persephone, and Hekate are an appropriate study for a feminist writing a dissertation that delves into a Jungian/Post-Jungian psychological study of the phases of women's lives. Psst: Hekate's the old one.

Give it a rest, ET.

[The Straight Story]

16. Wanna see the same people doing this get all freaked out?

Take a night and post about other religions and bad things they are doing. Judaism, Islam, etc....I tried that last night to illustrate a point.

Posted two threads. One was hidden (which I reposted with another source and was not).

Hating here is acceptable to some and creating stereotypes is as well - as long as it is a group we have accepted should be hated.

The principles behind it all don't exist for some (kind of like how some people will abandon 'your body, your choice' when someone makes a choice they don't like. They don't actually believe in the ideal but use it when they can and hide behind it).

Folks following islam over seas can stone people, beat them, behead them - but if you bring that up you are a hater who is biased from rw sources or someone will point out how christians here are pining to do the same thing.

You want to bash catholics? Ok to use left wing sources to do it. Want to bash muslims? Well....don't, that promotes hatred and we are against that. Except when we are not. It only promotes hatred and biases sometimes because, as noted, we don't really believe the BS principles we expound upon so often as liberals.

[Niceguy1]

21. Best post of the week!

My thoughts exactly.

[Hekate]

28. Good post, TSS

Thanks.

[dkf]

31. Spot on.

Don't mess with the sacred cows...but anything semi-mainstream is free to bash.

[LovingA2andMI]

33. K/R~~~

Your post. If you don't like the policies of the particular religion NO ONE is forcing you to join it. Personally, I don't agree with the principles of the Catholic Church BUT respect the right of those who choose to practice that religion. Maybe others should learn how to put to practice the same.

[Douglas Carpenter]

35. using hatred against Catholics to legitimize hatred against Muslims both which happens on DU all

the time. A person would have to be absolutely unable to observe if they have not noticed that there have been reams and reams of anti-Muslim hatred and bigotry posted all over DU on countless occasions and it has been given a pass most of the time. Even the most extreme anti-Muslim bigots and haters have posted there stuff countless times with complete impunity. If you have posted here even occasionally - obviously you know that already.

Of course you know that. I am completely disgusted and appalled by all this evil, hateful anti-Catholic bigotry also. But there is no excuse for you trying to use this terrible bigotry as a pretense for preaching your hateful message against Muslims - knowing full well that your message of hate is what is used to sell war - literal war on the people of the Muslim world.

So take some time off to be ashamed of yourself - because your hate-mongering in shameful - as is the hate mongering those who are applauding you for preaching hate - - just as those who are hate-mongering against the Catholics and those who applaud them are equally shameful.

[dkf]

47. So you are saying Straight Story supports the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

And wants to kill Muslims? Seriously? Where is your evidence?

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. I'm saying that legitimizing bigotry against Muslims makes waging war on them a lot easier

I have no idea what Straight Story feels about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - but legitimizing hate and bigotry against Muslims does make waging war on them much easier to sell. What is wrong with simply condemning all bigotry be it against Catholics, Muslims, Jews or whoever? Fortunately, the United States will not be waging war on the Catholic world or the Jewish world or the Protestant world - but we may very well find ourselves in more wars waged against the Muslim world. That makes it all the more prudent to be careful not to be propagandizing for the warmongers whether intentionally or unwittingly.

[leftynyc]

52. Couldn't disagree more

Every story that gets posted about some revolting display of Islamic law gets tagged a war mongering and the poster gets called an Islamophobe. Islam is the only religion that gets a pass around here and I could post dozens of examples of it. The anti-Catholic posts this past week have shown how Christianity doesn't get any pass at all. And you're practically admitting that it's because you think a progressive board has the power to wage war. It's ridiculous.

[CrawlingChaos]

61. So it's never occurred to you that our news media is biased AGAINST Muslims?

Because that would be the understatement of the century.

Have you ever considered that you might be blindly accepting a vision of the Muslim world that is perversely skewed to promote fear? Because that's what TPTB are selling, and they've gotten very, very good at it.

[leftynyc]

79. Oh brother

Forget the freeking media. How about I trust the DUers to make the distinction between one story and an entire religion. But heaven forbid we comment on the fact that gays get hanged from cranes or women are forced to marry or get acid thrown in their face for wanting an education and OH MY G-D, YOU'RE A WARMONGER!!!!! So spare me the pearl clutching.

[whathehell]

214. Again, thanks for pointing out the obvious bias as to who "gets a pass" and who does not. n/t

[dkf]

53. So if Catholics dislike homosexuality and Muslims kill homosexuals, who should be called on it?

By your reasoning you don't call out Muslim behavior because it's used to further wars while it's okay to bash Catholics because we aren't at war with them?

That's kind of messed up.

And it goes back to treating people unequally and feeling like there is permission to bash one group and giving a pass to another for the same or even worse behavior, which is exactly what the OP is unhappy about.

[Douglas Carpenter]

56. to simply say that Catholics dislike Homosexuality and Muslims Kill homosexuals is as bigoted and

misguided as saying, black rape white women and Jews cheat and swindle people. The world is simply a lot more complicated than that. Your understanding of the Muslim is extreme and bigoted just as other people understanding of blacks, gays or Jews is equally extreme and bigoted. The world is a lot more complicated than a few bigoted cliches. I do not believe Muslims or Catholics or anyone else should be subjected to bigotry when they post on DU.

[dkf]

60. So am I imagining that homosexual sex is a death penalty offense in 5 Muslim countries?

And not a death penalty offense in any Catholic countries?

DU tip toes around some religions but Catholicism gets the bazooka. I'm an atheist so it's all the same to me, and I can see plain and clear the unequal treatment.

[Douglas Carpenter]

62. I'll put it this way - I lived in the Middle East 26 years and I certainly knew lots and lots of

gay people who were very happy there and certainly did not feel persecuted. Although throughout the entire third world - whether Islamic or non-Islamic there is a general rule that one can do anything they want - but not officially. I would say of the several dozens of gay people I knew over the years who worked in countries as varied as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, the UAE. Oman, Kuwait, Bahrain, Jordan and and the Palestinian Territories - I never met a single one who did not very much enjoy their many years in the Middle East. Granted it is not the western model. Life there is even for gay people is nothing like what you think it is.

[dkf]

63. But we are talking about institutions and criticizing people for belonging to them...

So from that POV, why does Islam get a pass and not Catholicism?

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. well obviously Islam does not get a pass on DU - one would have to be extremely unobservant to

think that. There are so many post of hate and bigotry one cannot even count. The American media has frequently been an instrument of promoting fearful and hateful stereotypes of Muslims and Arab people. If you want to see some proof of that - watch the 50 minute film I mention below in my signature line. I absolutely do not believe that we should be insulting Catholics, Jews or anyone else. Although I can't say that I can recall any post singling out the Jewish religion - so one could ask why does Judaism get a pass? But that is not what I want to ask. I want to ask why can't Catholics, Muslims, Jews and even the much dreaded Evangelical Protestants - not all of whom are bigots - not all of whom are right-wing - why can't we all show a little bit of respect for each others backgrounds and spiritual sensitivities?

[dkf]

67. Lol sorry but I have to chuckle at the idea that people are sensitive to others backgrounds and

Sensitivities.

I'm just glad they got rid of Meta.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. Where do you draw the line between legitimising bigotry and attacking it?

I presume you wouldn't deny that the teachings of Islam as interpreted by the majority (not all, but most) muslims included horrendously immoral positions on e.g. womens' rights, gay rights, freedom of religion and speech, abortion, crime and punishment etc?

Where do you draw the line between attacking that ideology and "legitimising bigotry"? Do you, in fact, draw that line?

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. it is a rather recent event even in the Western world that enlightened attitudes have arisen

in regards to women's rights, gay rights and freedom of religion. Much of this enlightenment has occurred within my lifetime. In the more economically disadvantaged parts of the world enlightened ideas spread at a slower pace. It is simply true that the Western world is at least within the context of their own society is more enlightened on many things. But we have seen in very recent history that the more enlightened western world is also capable of extending incredible cruelty especially when leaving the borders of western civilization. What we cannot have as society become more multi-cultural as the world becomes more interconnected is a world and a society that refuses to respect each other. The Western world is in a position of power that the Muslim world simply does not have.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

181. I agree with most (not all) of that, but it looks like an attempt to avoid answering the question.

[Douglas Carpenter]

199. I don't know how you figure that

As I said I agree that the Muslim world is lagging behind the western world in may respects. But enlightened attitudes are new in the western world too. Throughout almost the entire the third-world - not only the Muslim world - many issues are simply benignly accepted rather than directly confronted. When it comes to something like homosexuality - until recently the Islamic world was far more accepting than the western world - although like many other things throughout the third world with the understanding that in the West you can talk about anything you want as long as you don't actually do it - while in the East you can do anything you want as long as you don't actually talk about it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

200. My question was "how far do you consider it legitimate to go in criticising or attacking Islam?"

You've given me your views on some related matters, but not an answer to that specific question. You've said that you agree with an extremely (in my view excessively) cautiously-phrased criticism of Islam; how much less mild-mannered do you think it is acceptable to be?

Also, you use the phrase "lagging behind" - do you believe in an inevitable progress from worse to better? Do you think that the distribution of attitudes in the Islamic world is shifting to become more liberal? Or that it will in the future? But that's a second question, when I'm still not satisfied that you've answered my first.

[Douglas Carpenter]

202. I think one should exercise the same caution about stirring up religions, ethnic and sectarian

hatred as one would exercise if they were talking about black people, gay people or Jewish people for that matter. The more articulate sworn enemies of black people. gay people or Jewish people - all are quite capable of presenting a compelling case against the groups who they deem threatening. They all would claim that they are not being prejudice - they are just stating facts. They all can produce quotes, facts charts and evidence to argue that the group they want to keep marginalized must be even more marginalized. I heard here on DU one person who was clearly quite hateful of Muslim people asking, "Why can't we have an open and honest conversation about Muslims?" Well of course what they meant by an open and honest conversation about Muslims is what David Duke would mean by an open and honest conversation about the Jews or what Tony Perkins would mean by an open and honest conversation about gay people (or Muslims for that matter - being that the religious right has declared Muslims and gay people to be the principle enemies of Christian civilization).

There a few things in the world more dangerous than igniting sectarian hatred of any sort. It has been done against many groups in the past - with frequently catastrophic consequences - with the most extreme example of course exercised against the Jews of Europe in the middle of the 20th Century. No, doubt many of the anti-Semitic propagandist thought they were just telling the fact and being honest.

Yes, I do think some of the attitudes I find throughout the third world where I have lived most of my life are certainly retrograde. There is no question that in the 26 years I spent in the Middle East that a general liberalization of society was taking place. It would have been unthinkable in 1986 to ever hear any criticism of the government or most certainly the religious authorities. By the time I left in 2011 - that had become common place and was even being published - albeit a bit cautiously in their mainstream newspapers. Women had become around 50% of University students and were becoming a major part of the professional class. Is it anywhere near western levels of liberal enlightenment? NO, of course not - but they have made more progress in the enlightened direction over the last two decades than Europe made at times over a period of hundreds of years. They are obviously moving forward.

I don't think there is any possibility that extreme sectarian hatred will break out in American or Europe against Catholics. Nor is there any possibility that whipped up hatred against Catholics will help facilitate a rise to war against any Catholic countries. This is a very real possibility when we talk about anti-Muslim sentiment. Nonetheless it is not possible to have a progressive majority without a lot of religious people involved including a lot of Catholics. To shun religious people including Catholics and to give them a message that they are not wanted on the left - is to hand the right a position of permanent dominance and to make the left a permanent fringe minority. Furthermore, I don't see anything productive about all this Catholic bashing and I do think people can show a little bit of sensitivity and respect for other peoples' feelings.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

211. I completely disagree that opinions are due the same respect that skin colours are.

We should no more refrain from criticising Muslims than we should refrain from criticising Republicans, or followers of any other immoral ideology. What we *should* do is try to ensure that that criticism is phrased in ways that won't inspire pogroms.

I think that there is something faintly ironic about using the danger of inspiring sectarian hatred in an argument against criticising Islam, given how strong the correlation between religious repression and Islam is.

I think that increasing *certain forms* of anti-Muslim sentiment is a good thing - I think that the teachings of Islam as interpreted by the majority (by no means all) of its followers are evil ("regressive", as you would put it) and I think that too few liberals recognise this fact. I think that progress in the Islamic world is likely to be a matter of progress away from Islam as much or more as within it, and that the West should be doing what it can (i.e. virtually nothing, alas) to encourage that.

I do agree that there's a very real danger that people will make the leap from "the teachings of Islam on a variety of subjects are evil" to "Muslims are evil" or "we should deny Muslims civil rights in the US, and/or bomb their countries". But I think that that danger is exacerbated, not mitigated, if the only high-profile figures publicly acknowledging the fact that most forms of Islam are evil are conservatives, who in many cases *want* people to make those leaps. The man in the Western street can see damn well that Islam is a bad thing, and if he sees conservatives acknowledging this and liberals pretending it isn't true, he's going to turn to conservatives for his opinions on Islam.

The correct response to bigotted conservative "Islamophobia" is nuanced liberal Islamophobia - drawing attention to the fact that Islam is in most places and in most ways a force for bad, but stressing that no more justifies discriminating against Muslims than that we are justified in discriminating against Republicans, or people who are wrong about anything else but obey the law.

[Douglas Carpenter]

54. Every single person here knows that preaching hatred against Muslim has gone on with impunity over

and over and over again. The vast majority of times - even the most extreme and hateful anti-Muslim bigotry will not even be hid and the most extreme anti-Muslim bigots will be given a pass the vast majority of times. There is not one single person who uses this forum even casually who does not know that. Almost every single Muslim DU member has been hounded off this forum and given a loud a clear message that they are not wanted here.

Having said that - even though anti-Catholic bigotry is at least not an instrument of propaganda to set the stage for war on the Catholic world - like anti-Muslim bigotry is an instrument of propaganda to set the stage to wage war on the Muslim world - what is so bad about being a little sensitive to anyone's religion and heritage; Catholic, Muslim or whatever? What is so bad about showing respect for other peoples' feeling on something so deep as their cultural/religious background - be it Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or whatever? What is so bad about a little bit of understanding and respect?

[CrawlingChaos]

59. You are right, of course

When people unquestioningly swallow anti-Muslim propaganda they are assisting the warmongers, whether they're aware of it or not. And in this country we are bombarded with such a crushing volume of anti-Muslim propaganda, it's is very hard to penetrate the noise. Thank you for trying. I know it's frustrating as hell.

[michigandem58]

69. Dumb comparison

The Catholic church fundamentally works against progressive principles as a matter of policy. Those other acts like stoning people are individual actions that no one here supports.

Maybe needing right-wing sources to back your comparison tells you something.

[sibelian]

74. "we don't really believe the BS principles we expound upon so often as liberals."

DAMN Straight, Mr Story...

[cordelia]

75. Excellent post.

Thank you.

[Zorra]

112. Challenge accepted. nt

[bowens43]

129. all deity based religions are equally vile. All of them should be discouraged.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

182. Nonsense. Some are far, far worse than others.

Compare and contrast e.g. the attitudes promoted by the CoE to the attitudes promoted by most branches of Islam.

All are *factually* incorrect. But the *ethical* teaching differ wildly.

[Zorra]

147. Done. Thread is below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022528762

I have absolutely no problem with any person of any faith who does not use religion as a vehicle to support, promote, and continue policies of hatred and bigotry.

[Scootaloo]

18. Islam just called. Said to tell you "Welcome to DU"

Mormonism was unavailable for comment.

[King_Klonopin]

22. HA !!!

[Douglas Carpenter]

27. yep

[valerief]

24. This anti-Catholic crap is WELL EARNED by the RCC. nt

[dogknob]

29. If it's annoying, ignore it.

The RCC and its teachings have done ridiculous amounts of harm to the world and we are going to keep on exposing it, talking about it, and trying to stop it.

... and there isn't a god-damned thing you can do about it

[King_Klonopin]

103. Anger, anger everywhere...

and hardly anyone actually listening to the other.

You can hate it all you want. You can speak in the language of a bully as well.
You can rant about the wrongs done. I don't care.

But if you say that I am in league with pedophiles and Inquisitors because I
am a Catholic, or am stupid for believing in God, then I have a right to say that
you are wrong and what you say is offensive. Get it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. You know I like you

This is not about being critical of the church. Hey, as a Jew my dog in this fight is not the church. The institution that is. It is the cartoon image that if an elderly woman drops a couple bucks into the collection plate, somehow she is abusing kids, hating the gay and automatically is pro-life.

That is a cartoon image and it is bigoted.

Now let me insert some nuance to your cartoon image. The laity is pissed at the hierarchy, so much that tithe collections are dangerously down. Yup, people are still attending mass. They are still giving tithe...the requirement is charity...so they are carefully choosing who to give just not at the collection plate.

By all means be critical of the hierarchy (though I would recommend learning the difference between monastic orders...there are allies to your cause within them)... But leave individuals alone.

[King_Klonopin]

145. Thanks for the help

That is why I donate to Christian Children's Fund.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. CFC every year we have the debate

Which of the two refugee funds to give to...one is run by the Jewish Community, the other by Christian charities. I make a call and find which is closer to the red...that year. We are Jews, but we believe in refugee work. It is ecumenical in my town.

The other is a local kitchen that feeds home bound people, many are AIDS patients.

[TreasonousBastard]

42. BTW, did you know we now have the Interfaith Group...

it's down there under Religion and Spirituality.

It's designed specifically to be a safe haven for positive discussion of religion and avoiding the fighting and harassment found elsewhere.

[Douglas Carpenter]

64. could you post a link please

[TreasonousBastard]

72. OK...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1264

[sendero]

66. Fair enough...

... I have stayed out until now but you've made that hard to do.

First, I do not condemn all Catholics, I agree with you that would be idiocy. Second, I agree the church does some good, although I don't think that is as true now as it was say 30 years ago.

Here's where we part ways in idea land. The pedophile priest mess has been going on for how long now? And what has really changed? The idea that in an organization as large as the church something like this could happen, totally agree. It's not the fact that it happened that I have a problem with, it is not even the horrid response by the church leaders that leave me cold. It's that decades later the same responses are still happening.

IMHO, when you make a mistake you own up to in and make amends at some point. All I see coming from the leaders of the church are excuses. I see no real cultural change in their attitude. They have the demeanor of folks who think they are above the rules, and I don't like that, not in the church, not in politicians, not in law enforcement, not in the corporate boardroom.

I will stop criticising the church when I see a real change in attitude. Perhaps the new pope will usher in such a change, but I won't hold my breath.

on edit: another reason I don't feel like condemning all Catholics is that as far as I can tell a large majority of them pretty much ignore the rhetoric coming out of Rome. Large numbers agree to disagree with the church on some of its basic doctrine. And I agree with that.

[Ikonoklast]

68. It's not just the crimes done by certain individuals in the RCC.

It is the systemic cover-up, aggressive denials, and the blaming the victim mentality that is part and parcel of the hierarchy of the RCC; protecting the clergy over their membership is the SOP and it goes all the way to the very top.

Ratzinger resigned because he tried to keep the lid on it, and failed miserably. Criminals are now retiring to the Vatican so they can remain beyond prosecution in other countries.

There is practically no way that an individual lay member of the RCC can change it, everyone that tries ends up the same, as an ex-member.

There is only one real way to get their attention, they can refuse to fund it.

Money from this country basically keeps the RCC afloat.

[michigandem58]

70. Give us real quotes instead of ones you made up

What is being said...verbatim...that you object to?

[Raine]

71. I'm not Catholic but I agree with you totally and I'm glad you said it. nt

[hobbit709]

73. I treat the Catholic Church the same way I treat any other religion.

[stevenleser]

77. I agree. My hope is we get some direction from the admins that this kind of bigotry needs to stop

or people will get PPR'd.

It's ok to say you have some objections with any religion, but to hold all adherents to any religion as responsible for all things done by a small minority of the members of that religion is bigotry.

Bigotry is against the TOS and should be dealt with accordingly.

[datasuspect]

80. it isn't bigotry to criticize error

.

[stevenleser]

91. I never said it was. It's bigotry to use broad brush negative generalizations for people. nt

[datasuspect]

92. are you sure about that?

negative generalizations are quite benign, they don't necessarily amount to bigotry.

why does your goal seem to be to control the outcome of DU? In other words, why is your objective to get people PPR'd?

[King_Klonopin]

107. That is the very definition of bigotry :

assigning broad, negative generalizations and characteristics to a distinct group of people.

example: all African Americans are on welfare
all Irishmen are drunks
all Catholic Priests are pedophiles
all practicing Catholics are tacitly supporting the crimes done by people in the church.

[datasuspect]

111. this is the very definition of bigotry/bigot

bigotry:

: the state of mind of a bigot

: acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot

bigot:

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

[stevenleser]

197. Exactly.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

219. well, two of them might be quite true.

[stevenleser]

138. Nice straw man. I hope <> "Attempt to control". nt

[ForgoTheConsequence]

117. A small minority?

ITS PART OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!

If I belonged to a club and the main rules were....

1) Women aren't equal
2) Gays are sinners
3) Help the poor



You can't just pick number three and say "hey man we don't all believe that other stuff". If you have given money to the church you have funded anti women and anti gay initiatives. Deal with it and own your actions.

[stevenleser]

142. "Deal with it and own your actions." - I am not Catholic. Push that somewhere else.nt

[trotsky]

82. I have a request.

You state the following "bullet-points on DU":

There are pedophile priests in the Catholic Church, therefore
the whole church and everyone in it is corrupt and evil (by association.)

There are horrible things happening all over the world which God/
Religion hasn't fixed, therefore God/Religion is useless.

All religions are corrupted, have hidden motives, cause only harm, and
all Christians are basically nutjob evangelicals.

Could you please cite exactly where these things were stated? The one common feature all of these "stop the anti-Catholic bigotry!!" threads seem to have is that they attack things that weren't actually said - just what people THINK was said.

You've made some serious allegations. The responsible thing to do would be to actually back them up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. You know, there is a Spanish saying that applies here

Where there is noise, the river is carrying water.

Now you've seen multiple threads.

But Di carry on.

It is real, it is ugly...instead of demanding proof, like you did with me, demand it stops.

[trotsky]

113. How can I demand it stop when no one gives evidence that it's happening?

I totally agree that anyone who says all Catholics are pedophiles should be PPRed. Problem is, I haven't seen anyone do that. And no one can point to a post either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. But people have

Perhaps not in the words you'd like...ever heard of nuance and implied meaning?

Jesus on a stick, the cartoon images of the church, and if you give tithe you support pedophilia are here...open your eyes.

In fact, I just got done reading such an exchange.

Or you are positive we all are some ergot and are having visions? True story, ergot is believed connected with outbreaks of visions.

[trotsky]

122. "Perhaps not in the words you'd like"

You mean the words people like you are CLAIMING?

Honestly, what is so wrong with demanding accuracy and truth in these accusations?

"if you give tithe you support pedophilia" - That isn't the same as saying that every Catholic is a pedophile, now is it?

"Or you are positive we all are some ergot and are having visions?"

Sorry, I'm not a black-and-white thinker. I don't believe you and others are having visions, what it seems to me is that people are either deliberately or innocently confusing the statements of "giving money to the Catholic church supports an anti-progressive agenda" and "all Catholics are right-wing pedophile-loving freaks."

Do you see those two statements as different, or the same?

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. In this very thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2528340

Is a very life example.

And look, as a Jew I don't have a dog in this fight.as a child of a holocaust survivor I know where those feelings can lead...as a historian I am not blind to the history of anti Catholicism in the US.

Have a good day.

I can lead a horse to water...it is up to the horse to drink or not.

[trotsky]

130. I just took some time to read that post very carefully.

Multiple times.

I do not see where they said that all Catholics are pedophiles.

Do you? Could you please quote the exact words making that claim?

I do see where they said the Catholic church "has systematically covered up for, and excused the raping of small children for DECADES." As far as I know, this is a true statement, because the church has admitted so itself, and there is a very long list of former victims who have come forward to confirm it. But they did not say that every single Catholic personally covered up and excused the rape of children.

Again I ask, do you see a difference?

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. Given the OP had the exact same interpretation

I have to conclude nuance is not your strong point.

Have an excellent day

[trotsky]

135. I don't think the insult was necessary.

Nuance, to me, is the ability to distinguish between the statements:

"All Catholics are child rapists and hate women and gays."

and

"The Catholic church has had a history of protecting child rapists, and currently has as part of its official church dogma that women cannot hold the same church positions as men, and that homosexual sex is wrong and homosexual marriage forbidden."

I can see a difference. I've asked if you can, and you have refused to answer. I don't think I'm the one who has a problem with nuance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. As I said, have an excellent day

Won't bother you again

[trotsky]

166. I'm sorry you deem it so unreasonable to expect people to back up their claims.

Especially claims that are so inflammatory and accusatory.

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. It's not unpleasant

It's clear, you either see it, or you don't. If you can't, I can't help.

So I will ask the same courtesy. I won't bother you again, please do the same.

[trotsky]

171. I've merely asked you questions

that you've refused to answer, or worse, have attacked me personally for asking.

You can stop responding to me any time you like, but as long as you keep this conversation going, I'm going to keep asking.

[nadinbrzezinski]

174. I answered, they were insufficient

Will remain insufficient for you. Since you cannot abide by a simple request either...welcome to my ignore list.

I asked nicely since did not want to put you on ignore.

With that, have a good life, I mean it. I no longer remove people from it once they go there. That is my choice.

With that, goodbye.

[trotsky]

176. No, you didn't answer.

I asked if you saw a difference between two statements.

You still have not answered, but instead attacked my intelligence.

Goodbye, sorry to have angered you so much by simply asking questions.

[zappaman]

207. Welcome to the list!

The IGGY list!

[HuckleB]

193. +1,000,000,000,000

[Ian David]

87. It has nothing to do with being Catholic.

It's just opposition to the policies that the Vatican is trying to impose on the secular governments of the world, including ours.

As far as I'm concerned, people can go around being as Catholic as they want. It makes no difference to me.

I just think it's wrong for them to show-up at the church and put money in the collection plate.

Why not just be Catholic at home, for free, without feeding the beast?

Or take that money and donate it to a worthy cause?

[Zorra]

90. Sorry. Nice try, but you are not the victim here.

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 01:46 PM - Edit history (1)

The church could erase much of the antagonism toward it if it would simplyface up to the simple fact that LGBT are born LGBT, and then subsequently stop persecuting and harming innocent people around the world.

Most kind people don't take kindly to seeing an organization work diligently at relegating them or their neighbors to pariah status and taking away their, or their neighbors rights, in order to relegate them to the status of other, to second class humanity/citizenship.

Continuing what is just a kinder, gentler form of Inquisition is not going to make the church popular with anyone but those people who condone hatred.

The church would also go along way toward toning down criticism by accepting the fact that all women have full sovereign rights over their own bodies.

Most people here are not complaining about Catholics, they are complaining about a church whose policies are promoting the restriction of rights of a large segment of the world's population. Yes, there are a very few who are dissing the Church for the wrong reasons. A very few.

There is an old saying: "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones".

Clean up that huge mess in your own house, and then maybe you will have a leg to stand on..

You are not the victim here. Instead of complaining about those who are pointing out the bigotry and hatred promoted by the church hierarchy, please try teaching your leaders what Love really is and means.

[Rowdyboy]

94. I'm not Catholic but the hate towards you guys is so palpable it makes my skin crawl....

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 12:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Hate and bigotry against religion are not Democratic values.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

118. Wah wah wah.

If you're a homosexual the Catholic hierarchy (with funding by its lay people) has done everything possible to deny your basic rights as a person. Quit coddling them, THEY DON'T LIKE YOU!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

95. Well said.

And remarkably astute, in this long time DUer's (and practicing Catholic's) opinion.

My religion may be flawed, but it's my religion. Just like my country may be flawed, but it's my country, and my political party may be flawed, but it's my political party.

[Marrah_G]

97. I don't hate Catholics, I do hate the Catholic Church Leadership

I make no apologies for it.

[magical thyme]

101. This is not about the individual people; the Catholic Church has a huge footprint

The announcement of the Pope dominated the news cycle, so the backlash really shouldn't be surprising.

For several days there the only thing that appeared on the home page of the big 3 mainstreams (nbcnews, abcnews and cbsnews...the only things I can safely view at work) had absolutely nothing other than the Pope announcement.

Yes, there are 1.2B Catholics in the world, ~17% of the population. 83% of the world's population is not Catholic, but their religions never get this kind of news coverage. Oh, except for the 1.5B Muslims in the world, who never existed according to the msm, until bin Laden. How do you think they feel?

There are also 1.5B Buddhists in the world, but I've never seen news coverage of the Dalai Lama even remotely approach the levels of the Pope.

Yes, 1 in 4 Americans is Catholic, but 3 in 4 are not Catholic. It gets very tiresome having a couple minority religions shoved in our faces every time they have some big event.

[truebrit71]

102. "I don't shove my Catholicism down anyone's throat"

..except for this thread of course...

I can say with absolute certainty that I do not belong to any organisation that has systematically covered up for, and excused the raping of small children for DECADES. If that makes me a "catholic-basher", then so be it.

Oh, and you also belong to an organisation that AS ITS' STATED POLICY is discriminatory towards woman and the LBGT community.

But other than that, I'm sure they mean well....

[King_Klonopin]

121. Your being very selective in how you chose to read my OP

I believe I addressed all those points, but enough is never enough for some.

I am not insisting you believe as I believe, become a Catholic, or even accept or forgive
what the church did in the past. I'm NOT defending "the church" and all the awful things
it is guilty of doing over 2000 years. I am defending my belief in a God, myself, and others
like myself who are Catholic and deemed as fair game for ridicule and venom if we "come out
of the closet" on this website.

As you (and lots of other folks) see it, if I don't abandon my faith and leave the Church
then I must be some kind of pro-pedophilia asshole who also hates women and LGBT people
and is the cause of all things bad in the world. I can assure you that I am none of those.

Try reading some of the comments about Catholics, and religion in general, from my perspective.
It's just over-the-top ugly sometimes. I'm not crying "poor victim me." I'm saying think about what
you say. In some specific instances, I am saying "cut the shit!"

I haven't slapped anyone in the face here. Why slap mine?

[truebrit71]

154. I am not recommending that you abandon your faith. That is totally different....

...from leaving the institution you choose to practice that faith in.

Whether you like it or not, because the church hasn't remotely made amends for the as yet not-fully-disclosed child-rape scandal, and because it continues to be anti-gay and anti-woman, virulently so in the hierarchy, you will continue to get tarred with the same brush.

You can practice your belief in god anywhere, you don't need the trappings of an institution that has proven itself throughout the ages to be a source of great evil and untold misery, pain and suffering...

[Comrade Grumpy]

143. I hope you don't contribute to the BBC.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

104. Anti-Catholic or anti-Catholicism? There is a difference.

Hell, I know some conservatives that I like but that doesn't let their beliefs off the hook or prevent me from criticizing those beliefs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. Hold it, I was told by some that it is your imagination

After sticking my head out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2524425

For what is worth, I will continue to stick my neck out...bigotry *is* bigotry and my tolerance level for that shit is way low.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

136. I hope you cry for all discrimination.

I hope you cry when Fred Phelps is insulted, or Pat Robertson. I hope you cried when people attacked Mormons after Prop 8. I hope your position is consistent, although I highly doubt it is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. Conflating is not helping you

And I will leave it at that.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

141. I'll take that as a concession.

Defending the indefensible is a hard task. You gave it your best shot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. You are right, defending bigotry against posters is hard to do

Carry on.

[Common Sense Party]

108. "No one expects the Progressive Inquisition!"

That's about the only response one can give to the theophobes.

[Walk away]

110. This is like white folks crying about racism. nt

[ForgoTheConsequence]

120. Haha so true.

A two thousand year history of murder, rape, death, slavery, forced conversion, misogyny, corruption and homophobia and they're the victims. Its almost insanity.

[leftynyc]

235. Plenty of people defend

Islam here and they have hundreds of years of the same history. Surely you've seen that.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

114. Wonderfully stated, King. Thank you from my Irish Catholic heart.

[King_Klonopin]

149. Well, Ms McGillicutty

From the responses I see here, I'm afraid the sentiment was wasted and the effort was futile...
the exception being you. Back to the catacombs we go.

Happy St. Padrig's Day!

[corneliamcgillicutty]

178. I wish I had stopped after reading

your OP. As I read the responses, some of them actually made me sick to my stomach. I was so happy when I found this site as it actually helped me get through the election of our president along with campaign volunteer work. Now, with the rancor and vitriol I have encountered here lately, I wonder why I bother. Regarding Drunken Irishman, I was sad to read his departure post, especially on St. Patrick's Day. Thank you for your willingness to address this sitation and please know there certainly are others who are grateful as well.

[King_Klonopin]

186. Oh yes, My Dear

You will soon see a pattern that just the mere mention of God or the
Church sends folks into a frenzy. I've seen threads go completely off
the rails when religion enters the discussion. I've been visiting this site
since the 2000 presidential race but recently started posting.

I think the news of a new Pope triggered all this stored up venom to
be spewed. This was the first time I responded with a call to be more
mindful. Drunken Irishman lit the fuse with his post.

Love those who persecute you (it pisses 'em off!)

[ForgoTheConsequence]

116. Give me a break.

If you belong to an organization that hates me, and seeks to deny me basic rights I'm going to call you out. Cry about it all you want but you know what hurts more than words on a message board? A multi billion dollar church (partially funded by you) spending millions to deny me basic liberties! That hurts pretty fucking bad.


Would the same people be crying about attacks on Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell or Southern Baptists? Whats the difference?

[King_Klonopin]

128. And one way to change it

is to have people like me stay in it. Otherwise, that culture never changes.

I don't spew the hate and venom that you mentioned above.
They are specific people who behave like assholes. Catholics are not robots
controlled by a central brain. There are plenty of contrarians like me in the
Catholic Church and the other denominations.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

134. Sure pick and choose what you believe.

But when you donate money you aren't changing a thing, you're funding their assault on me.


And there are other branches of Christianity that don't preach homophobia and misogyny, yet you choose to stay. That's between you and the God of your parents choice and your own conscience. If you can live with yourself knowing where your money goes, fine.

[King_Klonopin]

155. If I stop donating money, will that make me acceptable as a Catholic?

My taxes also paid for the war in Iraq, but I'm not moving to Switzerland.

I try to keep my politics and my faith separated. Unfortunately, a lot
of others conflate the two.
Jesus never gave a political speech that I can remember.

Yes, I choose to dismiss what seems inconsistent with the "red words"
in the new testament. I stay Catholic because I don't want to throw out
the baby Jesus with the bathwater, as dirty as it can get at times.

[ButterflyBlood]

160. That sounds more like wanting to stay Christian, but not Catholic

You can throw away the hierarchy and organization in Catholicism without throwing out Jesus, and remain Christian. That's what I did. And it's far easier than emigrating, takes no effort at all really.

You CAN stay Christian without being Catholic. It's not a false dichotomy. If anything I'd say the dichotomy is more like choosing to follow Jesus or the Pope because I don't see how one can follow both. It was something I realized as a teenager, I could choose the Pope, the hierarchy and the church, or I could choose Jesus.

[ohheckyeah]

148. How's that changing thing working out?

I haven't seen much change in it for the better in my lifetime. So, how are you going to change it?

[King_Klonopin]

157. Is that you, Sarah ?

[ohheckyeah]

159. seriously....

I've watched family members spend years in fundamentalist churches that ran off the rails, thinking they would change things. It didn't happen and it's not going to happen. As long as their are warm bodies and money coming into a church it isn't going to change.

I truly don't get it....if you know how wrong the church is, why stay? What do you get out of it if you disagree with most everything the church teaches? I really don't understand.

Cute come back but it didn't answer the question. And Sarah didn't coin the phrase, Dr. Phil did.

[Arugula Latte]

229. The new head guy thinks gay marriage is Satan's work. I don't see change at the top.

The congregations may evolve forward, but the management remains stuck in medieval times, and it is still doing its best to impose its medieval agenda on us in modern times.

[Apophis]

123. The Catholic church's bigotry and misogyny is getting really annoying.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

125. Careful.

You're bordering on hate speech. The Catholic church is allowed to donate millions to marginalize gays and women but the minute you call them out you're a bigot. I mean they only dominated and ruled western civilization for centuries, we wouldn't to offend any sensibilities.

[darkangel218]

162. +1

[NYC Liberal]

190. If the "Catholic Church" were called the "Catholic Party" or "CatholicPAC",

with exactly the same positions, there would be no question about the appropriateness of criticizing it or people's decision to be members of it.

But call yourself a religion and any criticism magically becomes off-limits. Unless it's Westboro Baptist Church or the Church of Scientology; funny how little outrage there is about criticisms of those churches and its members from the people who want no criticism of the RCC. The RCC may be more "eloquent" in the pronouncement of its anti-gay doctrines, but their position regarding LGBT folks is not much better than WBC's.

[Apophis]

192. Agreed.

[HuckleB]

195. Indeed. Indeed. Indeed.

[bowens43]

127. the whining about the so called 'anti catholic-crap' is getting annoying.

You don't have to read the posts. Just chose to ignore them.

all deity based religions are equally vile . They should all be discouraged.

[LeftyMom]

131. Annoying? Insulting? Try growing up in a church that only sees you as a future brood mare.

[HockeyMom]

150. The Catholic Church recently has gotten far more in your face

MILITANT in recent (Obama) years. Cardinal Dolan for one, on the issues of CIVIL gay marriage and CIVIL contraception. The Catholic Church does not have to marry gays, or divorced people, BUT they are trying to impose their religious teachings on civil government. The same is true for the contraceptives coverage. Gay marriage is an "abomination". Contraception is an "abomination". Long list of what they consider "abominations".

I cannot speak for others, only myself. I have been happily ignoring the church since I left 50 years ago. Live your life the way you want, but I object when the pope, cardinals, bishops, priests try to tell people who aren't and don't want to be (anymore) catholic that they must live the way that the catholic church teaches.

I want them to keep their noses out of CIVIL GOVERNMENT. Am I bashing Catholics for thinking this? I want separation of church (no matter WHAT church) and STATE. I also don't want politicians who think they need to legislate what their particular religion teaches. Is all this too much to ask for? Is this bashing Catholics?

[Dawson Leery]

153. The RCC and Evangelicals are determined to turn this nation into a Christian theocracy.

Both groups have opened themselves to criticism.

[Kolesar]

158. They excommunicated John Kerry as a tacit endorsement of warmonger Bush

That was Ratzenberger's doing.

[Kolesar]

156. I read DU for hours per day and don't see the anti-Catholic crap you claim

You couldn't provide examples when trotsky asked you for examples, either:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022527018#post82

I let my Catholic friends and relatives know that I abandoned the Church and I give them reasons why. One way of expressing it is that their revelations have no more relevance than LDS or the Hopi religion. I have been an admirer of Hopi beliefs since I learned about them in the Southwest Museum in LA a few decades ago.

[King_Klonopin]

164. Here's a beauty for ya:

Star Member kas125 (1,982 posts)
21. Wrong. Going to a chuch is a choice and like I told a friend of mine,

View profile

Last edited Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:44 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
if choose to enter a Catholic church, you may as well put a sign on your forehead that says "I support child rape." No excuses, if you choose to go there, you choose to support what they have done and continue to do. Citizens have no choice about what their gov't does in their names, the only thing they can do is make sure they protest enough to get their names published in the news, as I have, so history will record that we didn't support the madness.


There's dozens of posts just like this one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. Some folks are just incapable of seeing them

That is clear to me.

[Kolesar]

188. As you seek, so shall you find

I still don't see all the "anti Catholic bigotry" you cite.

I see some unproductive threads where some DUers obsess about policies that they really don't understand, and I just withdraw from those threads.

[HuckleB]

196. It's called find an anecdote and generalize from there.

It's a logical fallacy.

And, in this case, it seems to be aimed a desire to feel persecuted when there is no actual persecution.

[King_Klonopin]

212. The accusation that I feel "persecuted", or am acting the "victim"

gets tossed around pretty casually.

I never said I felt "persecuted", and I never presented myself as
a martyr or a victim, either.

Somehow, this thread digressed into a giant pissing contest to see who
is "right" and who is "wrong", with the focus diverted back on "the church"
when I was speaking for myself -- as an individual. Defending myself is
my right, and it doesn't imply that I am acting like a persecuted martyr
when I do complain that I find certain comments personally insulting.

Semantics seem to have more importance than sentiment has at DU.
Here are more accurate terms to describe MY (i.e. not your) feelings:

Insulted/Offended
Unfairly reviled
Denigrated
Accused
Slapped (metaphoric sense)

Here's my point: If you hate the church or have atheistic beliefs, that is
your right, and I won't bludgeon you for it. BUT, be mindful of others here
who don't share that sentiment, and make your points without being dickheads --
to me or to each other.
Here's a common response (paraphrased): Tough shit. If you don't like it, screw!
If you're a Catholic, you must be an asshole. If you believe in a God, you must
be a nit wit.

And it is easy to dismiss this grievance as "anecdotal." There's an obvious
increase in the amount of undeserved venom being spat at Catholics on DU
over the past months. I don't need to spend hours re-reading, cutting and
pasting all the nasty posts I've read just to satisfy people who probably refuse
to be convinced to begin with. The example post I gave should suffice.

[patrice]

163. Truth is served by freedom and vice versa. Being capable of chosing either to stay in

a relationship (to a church in this instance) or to leave is what makes it possible for that relationship to live, no matter what one chooses. That's not a guarantee, but it does make creative potential possible.

A lot of people have become reactionaries relative to any power, limiting their perceptions of how to assert their own powers only to the power to reject others. There are some grounds for that reaction in concerns that one may lose what is most authentically one's self in any kind of relationship to strong/powerful others, but that is not necessarily so. The dynamics of two (or more) power positions can make a strong person even stronger. Struggle clarifies values and commitment in service to even small potentialities for change that would not have been evoked if the particular individual who CHOSE to remain in the relationship, CHOOSING not to leave it, had not done so.

Yes, to me, the element of choice is vital, because without that freedom, or at least as much of it as possible, the good effects of a decision, one way or the other to stay or go, are warped by unrecognized slavery. My ideal is to free one's self as much as possible to be capable of authentically saying either yes or no.

If people feel as though they don't have that freedom, that they MUST stay or they MUST go, at minimum, the recognition of that bondage is a good thing which can allow what good may come of a thing by not lying about its price.

[NaturalHigh]

172. I posted the same thing in GD last week. It was locked.

However, any number of jerks post anti-Catholic threads, and they seem to stay active forever. Double standard.

[Dragonbreathp9d]

179. I have a question for Catholics

Can I raise my concerns and objections to what I believe is inherent flaws in there governmental system without sounding like I am attacking the religion? I have several Catholics in my family and friends so I have been wary of broaching the subject for fear that I may come across as being against their beliefs. Any input would be welcomed.

[HockeyMom]

191. As a former Catholic school grad of 12 years

I would say go ahead. They did teach me well to question the faith of others, BUT with that, you also learn to question THEIR faith also. Double edged sword, Rome.

You only need to see the comments here on DU from Catholic school grads to see how well Catholic education works.

[madmom]

185. I don't really consider stating an opinion an act of

bullying, unless it's done with physical enhancements( ). I can say I think someone is ugly, it's just my opinion and it may be cruel and hurtful, but only if you let it be. It's only an opinion and we are all entitled to that.What we are not entitled to is to not be offended.

[HuckleB]

194. The "Yeah for the NEW POPE!" posts are what need to go.

Criticizing an institution focused on maintaining power over people via its own fiction-based dictates, instead of science and evidence may be considered "anti-Catholic," but it certainly is more justifiable.

[mr blur]

198. "Not ashamed"? Perhaps you should be.

But don't worry, you christian privilege will get you a free pass around here.

[cordelia]

221. "Christian privilege"? What Christian privilege?

Details please!

[markpkessinger]

201. From where I sit, as an Anglican . . .

. . . I agree that some of the statements made have been unfair, both to Roman Catholics, in particular, and to adherents of religion in general. Yes, in some posts, there does seem to be an element of anti-Catholic or anti-religious bias. Certainly, no one should impute the sins of the Roman Catholic hierarchy to the Roman Catholic laity. But, as I am sure you are aware, there are many complex reasons that fuel much of that bias.

You write:

The Catholic Church is a living, evolving, HUMAN organism -- just like you and me. It's never been perfect and never will be -- just like you and me.

I don't think anybody here will disagree with you on that point. The problem is that your view doesn't seem to be the Church's official view of itself. Indeed, the Church's view of itself is that it is divinely instituted, that as a matter of dogma, on matters of faith and morals, its teachings are infallible, and that it (and it alone) is the possessor of the fullness of divine truth. That purported infallibility is further extended to the Pope (yes, I know, only when speaking ex cathedra on matters of doctrine in accordance with the Magisterium). If an organization wishes to claim such an exalted status, then it can hardly expect to be permitted, in the wake of such a far-reaching scandal, a defense based upon the human frailty of its leaders.

Part of the problem, I believe, rests in the Church's very theology of Holy Orders (for those unfamiliar with the term, Holy Orders is a collective reference to the three orders of ministry found in the Roman Catholic Church -- namely, deacon, priest and bishop). The Church teaches that through the sacrament of ordination, a person's very being undergoes a permanent and indelible transformation into a new order of human being, set apart from and above the rest of humanity. I'm sorry, but that is an invitation to pathology.

You say you wish to stay behind in order to be a "force for good." That's a noble sentiment. But if I were a Roman Catholic in your shoes, here's the question I would be asking myself: What kind of "force for good" can I realistically be, as a lay person, in a Church where the laity are given no real voice in Church governance, and in which the clerical leadership hierarchy has no accountability whatsoever to the laity it purports to serve?" As an outside observer, it strikes me that the only voice you really have is your body in the pew (and of course, it's accompanying checkbook).

[RainDog]

206. that's exactly what the thrust of the "accusations" have been

but some here want to pretend they are victims b/c others ask... why don't you engage in civil disobedience against an entity that is ranked by religious scholars as a fundamentalist entity on par with Protestant and Islam fundamentalism? This is the underlying question in all the "enabling" statements. Rather than address this within themselves, they attack those who ask the question.

The Fundamentalist Project, out of the U. of Chicago, and one of whose leaders is at Notre Dame, states that Catholicism is a fundamentalism that differs in explanation for its exceptionalism, but not the underlying pathology behind that belief that they have the right to elide separation of church and state.

The Catholic claim lies in the belief that the church itself, rather than a book, as with Protestantism, is the direct will of god, according to those who have done comparative religion studies of the four big religions that now curse the world with their claims - Catholic, Protestant, Islamic and Judaism. The reality is that Hindu fundamentalism is also a big problem in India.

[King_Klonopin]

210. Thanks for a thoughtful response.

I don't like absolutes of any kind. I know the dogma in any church
always falls into this trap, but I can live with it.

I also don't live in an "either/or" world. Life is not that simple.

Jesus chose Peter to be the first pope, as it were, and Peter was
the most flawed of all the Apostles. I think that was the very reason
why Jesus chose him (just my opinion, though)

I am surprised by the amount of venom this post received, and
how many people seem to miss the points I tried to make.

I don't see changes coming from outside either. We can throw stones
at any large institution, but change is usually organic. Shaming people
like me into leaving can have negative blow-back. I guess I envision a
long, slow and painful "silent" coup by the laity -- not a revolution.

Thanks for the polite discorse.

[whistler162]

205. What next.....

we can't make bigoted comments about white hetrosexual males? UNFAIR!!!!

Who can we make bigoted comments about?

SARCASM

[tabasco]

208. Catholic shmatholic

All religions are just stupid superstitions.

They show we haven't really evolved much from cavemen.

[rhett o rick]

209. I would be more impressed if you were to tell us that you were working to

reform the church. I hope you agree the Catholic Church is desperately in need of reform. Maybe they need a new Martin Luther.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

216. There ARE pedophile priests in the Church,

and because their crimes were covered up, because judges, lawyers, and victims were repeatedly and deliberately lied to, and because the church tried its best to pretend no problem existed, the whole church is corrupt and evil. To say otherwise, would be like saying because some of the Nazi brownshirts did many good deeds, they should not be judged by the crimes committed by some.

Horrible things are happening all over the world, in some cases, CAUSED by the church. Therefore religion is useless. In fact, religions that wash and rinse the brains of children, and force lies down their throats, and teach them that science is evil, are worse than useless, they are evil personified.

All religions are corrupt? I wouldn't go that far. I rather like the pastafarians. But many do have hidden motives (the catholic church seeks money, power, and control, often in subtle, hiddeenn ways). Others, like Crespo Dollar's megachurch are upfront about their motives. He wants money. Lots of it. Because he reads from the bible, he is entitled to it. From you.

The Catholic church has been the source of evil for generations. Any fair review of history cannot avoid that conclusion. However, if you want to base your life on a story stolen from past religious cults, remixed and refined by a group of illiterate semitic nomads, claiming that Mary was a virgin when she squeezed out god between her thighs, that some moses dude opened up an entire sea, that god really comes in 3 parts, one of which is god's son (conveniently ignoring the need for a mommy god), that after Eve, there were no women for 800 years, yet people begat tons of other people, who just all happened to be male, that slavery is good, and you can sleep with as many female slaves as you wish, but heavens forbid that a woman bleed (Lev. 15:19), that if your credit cards are maxed out, you can always sell your daughter into slavery to clear your accounts, well, please go ahead.

For myself, I prefer words of wisdom that are not biblical in nature:

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing call revelation or revealed religion. It has been the most dishonorable belief against the character of the divinity, the most destructive to morality and the peace and happiness of man, that ever was propagated since man began to exist.”
- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

[DCBob]

218. Its easy to bash Catholics..

they dont fight back.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

222. Methinks the Irish may have a different opinion.

[DCBob]

225. Im talking about people who are Catholics, not the church.

which I what I thought this discussion was about.

[Not Me]

226. I really don't care what the Catholic Church thinks about any matter...

or any Church for that matter, but it fries my ass when they use their tax exempt status for political purposes; especially those that impose their beliefs on me.

[backscatter712]

228. The Pope, the hierarchy, and the theology should be bashed.

There's the child-molestation, the cover-up, the Wall-Street-style financial fraud and grifting, the homophobia, the misogyny, the bankrolling of hate-politics using money taken from collection plates, the deadly admonitions against contraception, the guilt-tripping and shaming, the terrorizing by threats of Hell, and the authoritarianism.

Explain to me why the church shouldn't be harshly criticized.

[upi402]

234. it's not anti catholic really

it's anti many other things at its core-

pedophilia
sexism
homophobia
repression of; science, truth, fact, freedoms of many kinds including opinions that challenge false beliefs

[loyalsister]

243. I have family members who order dominoes pizza, eat at Chik- Fillet

and shop at Walmart. Should I withdraw from my family whose company I enjoy? They give me emotional support that I rely on. Just as religion is a meaningful support system for people.

When her 20 yr old granddaughter died, my Catholic aunt hugged me crying and asked "please tell me you think we'll all be together." This atheist's response "we will be." It made her feel better and it didn't cost a thing.

My family and friends do things and hold opinions that I disagree with all the time. But many of them also have redeeming qualities. I understand that there are official positions of the church that are offensive. But, not every Catholic subscribes to all of those positions.

There are some redeeming positions in my mind. I like that they oppose the death penalty, and I also like that they are beginning to turn a focus toward the poor.

[Jasana]

249. I congratulated you on your new pope in another thread but...

but if he turns out to be a lot like the old pope I will not be happy in the least.

I am an atheist... an atheist who does not believe in woman bashing, kid banging, cover ups and homo bashing. If the new pope engages in such things, I will despise him... and the people who follow him. I'm sorry but truth is truth I fear. The woman bashing, kid banging, cover ups and homo bashing has been a truth the catholic church has been screaming for a long time. That is bigotry.

I hope your new pope deals with these issues. If he does, I will get behind him 100 percent. A 100 percent "warrior" at his back... despite his religion and my atheism. I wish you luck with your new pope... sincerely and truly. I hope he is someone I can follow....