Can anyone point me to any actual persecution or mass discrimination of Catholics in the US today?

[ButterflyBlood]

Because it really doesn't exist. Despite all this "last acceptable prejudice" nonsense. Claiming that reminds me of Republicans talking about how white males are so oppressed and discriminated against.

The fact that anyone would compare what basically amounts to people on the Internet saying mean things about the Catholic Church to what LGBT people go through is quite offensive, especially considering how much of the bigotry and discrimination against LGBT people comes from and is promoted by the Catholic Church.

I come from a half-Catholic extended family (well really about a quarter at most Catholic now considering how many people have abandoned the church or converted to something else.) and I have yet to hear anyone in my family ever report being discriminated against in any way for being Catholic. If some people want to claim that some type of modern day Know Nothing movement has great influence in the country and Democratic Party, I'd like to see some examples.

[liberal_at_heart]

1. bye-bye

[No Vested Interest]

2. +1

[Union Scribe]

31. Yep

I have no more time for these bilious posters.

[Arugula Latte]

117. So, in other words, you can't name anything

except maybe people not kowtowing to Church dogma on the Internet.

[truebrit71]

226. +1

[Rex]

100. My how liberal at heart you are!

NOT.

[dsc]

3. thank you for posting this

[cthulu2016]

4. There is no persecution of or mass discrimination against Catholics in the US today

There is a substantial amount of stereotyping, both positive and negative.

There was a surprising level of alienation/hostility in places, certainly through the 1970s. No so much formal discrimination, but in some places being Catholic just "didn't fit in," if you know what I mean.

But even then being Catholic was nothing like being gay today... did someone say it was?

Now before then... hell, we had anti-Catholic national political parties back in the day.

[ButterflyBlood]

5. Someone recently posted a list of "discriminated groups" that included both

And cited some book about how anti-Catholicism is "The Last Acceptable Prejudice" which sounds like a right wing talking point screaming about Obamacare's birth control mandate or "trampling on the sanctity of marriage".

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. That was me

The book was written by a historian. Academics at times chose iffy tittles, it is a meta analysis of media representations of the faith, and the cartoon image of the faith.

And you deny that there is no social and at times legal discrimination against immigrants? It the fact that colleges, for example, still have admittance quotas for a whole slew of minorities? So yes, that someone is me.

For the record, my tolerance for bigotry, regardless who is the target, is way low. Right now people are attacking, yes attacking, posters who happen to be catholic with bigoted statements. Learn to separate the individuals from the hierarchy, for starters.

[HiPointDem]

24. In the 70s I would still occasionally hear stories about how the priests were having sex with

the nuns and the aborted babies were buried in the cellar of the church. Or something along those lines. From older people who either believed it or were reporting on what they were told in their youth. Which is one reason Kennedy's election was something of a milestone.

[TheBlackAdder]

78. A priest having sex with a nun? That definitely doesn't happen! nt

[HiPointDem]

83. ha. ha. yeah, all priests are gay. ha. ha.

[Occulus]

167. I'm gay, and you took that wrong.

just FYI.

[Archae]

6. There is one Catholic guy who really fits the bill...

Bill Donohue of the "Catholic League."

My Catholic sister called him the "heart and stupidity" of the League.

The guy is constantly angry, bullies critics, and says gays are to blame for the child molesting, and Jews control Hollywood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Donohue

[Egalitarian Thug]

13. As Bill Maher said, the Catholic League is "one guy with a FAX machine".

The "Million Moms" is really 2,000 loud maniacs.

The last "New Rules" had a couple of great points.

The banana bit was priceless.

[Skittles]

7. some of them are upset to find out not everyone is on board with them

it makes them wail up a storm

[olddots]

8. Though not today ( maybe) Catholics were very persicuted in the past

along with other religions these memories don't fade fast .
I am sure there are some hate groups out there in the world who single out Catholicism .

[ButterflyBlood]

9. Those memories don't need to fade considering that no one has them

We're talking about prior to the Civil War. That's when the Know Nothings existed. No one alive today was at that time.

[struggle4progress]

17. The Klan, when most influential in the 20s, pushed anti-Catholicism

and anti-Catholicism was still much in evidence during Kennedy's campaign in the 60s

[Sherman A1]

18. Agreed

My Mom told me stories from that era, when the Catholic part of the family was visiting some of the parts who were not in TX (and were probably involved with the Klan) she & her folks had to slip out the side door on Sunday AM to make their way to Mass.

[Gravitycollapse]

27. Yeah...didn't people like not think Kenney was electable because he was Catholic?

And that really wasn't that long ago.

[loudsue]

34. The Klan is mostly southern baptist. They have always hated....well, everyone.

These days, we call it the southern republican baptist church, because that is what the preachers preach every sunday in church. But catholics have always been their competition for member$hip.

[struggle4progress]

35. Indiana had the largest Klan organization of any state in the "Invisible Empire" era in the 20s,

with about a third of the white male population as members, and I doubt the Southern Baptists had much of a toehold there then

[Kolesar]

102. You've never lived in Indiana

Bible thumping Protestants were the norm in West Lafayette when I lived there.

[struggle4progress]

131. The question under consideration is: what fraction of Indiana is Southern Baptist?

Members of the SBC are typically very conservative, but there are many conservatives not in the SBC. The Southern Baptists first had affiliates in Indiana after 1914, so they are unlikely to have been a very large proportion of the Baptist population there in the 1920s:

... One Baptist group was a latecomer to the Hoosier State. In 1914, 40 members of First Baptist Church in Hymera, in Sullivan County, were dissatisfied with what they saw as the "looseness" of the Indiana Baptist Convention doctrine. They withdrew from the church and formed the first Southern Baptist affiliated congregation in the state. The denomination grew slowly and is mainly located in the southern part of the state ...
http://www.connerprairie.org/Learn-And-Do/Indiana-History/America-1860-1900/Baptists-In-Indiana.aspx

[WinkyDink]

45. Not quite; they didn't hate WHITE PROTESTANTS.

[TexasProgresive]

41. A cross was burned in my Grandparents yard

in 1926 because they were Catholic not black.
This act may be what turned my Grandparents to more liberal thinking. I don't know for sure but they and my Dad, uncle and aunts were not like most other white people around us.

[ieoeja]

54. They tried burning a cross in my (white) Grandparent's yard in the 1930s.

[amandabeech]

202. The KKK burned a cross in the field across from my maternal grandparents' farm house

in the 1920s. My grandfather slept with a loaded .45 under the pillow for a couple of years afterward.

I'm Protestant, like my father and my maternal grandmother, but most of my relatives on my mother's side are Roman Catholic.

By my Mom's account and her sibling's attitudes, her Roman Catholic family members at the time (who were all of Irish or Scottish descent) seemed to maintain animosity toward the British rather than their neighbors who obviously once belonged to the KKK. The family feelings may be a result of the KKK's fading very quickly with much local embarrassment and unspoken apologies, and the British remaining steadfast and in control of the northern part of the Emerald Isle.

Then WWII came, my family and everyone in the area, Protestant and Roman Catholic, worked to defeat Hitler and Tojo, and the Klan became a forgotten and irrelevant past. My Mom married the non-religious son of a Protestant English immigrant mother and my Mom's youngest sister married a Protestant from western Pennsylvania, and no one cared. They were both nice guys and that's what counted.

My Mom's bachelor brother's funeral was held in a Protestant-owned funeral home and was officiated by a Roman Catholic priest. The priest picked me, a Protestant, to read one of the parts of the Roman Catholic service, instead of one of my Roman Catholic relatives when he saw me spending more time grieving over my uncle's remains and welcoming other mourners than talking just to my relatives. The mourners were Roman Catholic, Christian Reformed and Amish. I hate to say it, but it was obvious that I was more upset than anyone. The priest was more concerned about relationships than religious forms, to his credit, IMHO.

It seems for many people that the past is only truly past when prejudice was last felt in the great-grandparents' generation, though. I wish it were otherwise, but people are people. I say focus on the present.

[ButterflyBlood]

205. Nice that your Catholic relatives were more tolerant than some of mine

Hearing about those hating my parents' wedding made me disgusted and ashamed to share any ancestry with them, even if they were dead and had been since I was a little kid. My mom even brought it up in a joking way the first time I heard about it (sort of "oh well it's good that these people aren't alive anymore with your conversion, I wonder how they'd react.&quot but I was still disgusted regardless. And it didn't exactly help my already incredibly low opinion of both the Catholic Church AND the culture surrounding it for some that give some people the idea they can trap anyone baptized in it for life and people who leave are either dirty heretics or some type of ethnic traitor.

[amandabeech]

208. I've heard about family stories like yours and I consider myself lucky.

I think that my Roman Catholic Irish great-grandmother was more like that, but it's somewhat unclear whether it was the Roman Catholicism or a genetic predisposition toward nastiness that made her like she was. I do know that at least three of her children moved pretty far away, and were lost to the family because of the fighting, verbal and physical, that went on in her household. She wasn't very nice to my Protestant maternal grandmother, though she didn't last too long into my grandmother's marriage to her son. Frankly, my Catholic great-grandfather used to come to my protestant grandmother's side of the house for polite conversation and a good cup of coffee. (My maternal grandmother was of Swedish descent and she made good coffee and the best dinner rolls). If my great grandmother had lasted longer, the problems might extend to my generation. As it is, my cousins and I were lucky.

All I can say is I'm sorry for your situation, but I hope that your generation will mellow out as they get older and that your children's generation will not be affected.

[ButterflyBlood]

209. Actually I don't know ANYONE in my age group who identifies as Catholic, so I don't think it matters

The Church is headed toward demographic suicide in so many ways. Try finding a 20something who's a practicing Catholic, or even identifies as such nominally. It's not easy.

I actually do know of some churches in my area that are booming with young people and stories about people going after not having gone to a church for over five years...but not Catholic or anything traditional obviously. Free of denominational ties and traditions.

[amandabeech]

210. I hope that the booming churches are not actually personal fiefs of very conservative

protestant ministers who are looking to make a mark for themselves and not to bring souls to Jesus.

Churches like that were big when I lived in central Pennsylvania several years ago.

They tend to have a rather short shelf life.

[ButterflyBlood]

48. None of that is the modern day

[struggle4progress]

49. It wasn't that long ago. People still alive remember it.

[gordianot]

53. I live in an area where Catholics are actually Klan members.

So at least in one corner of "Stupid White America" Catholics are free to practice virulent bigotry with a traditional hate group. As was explained to me if acknowledged publicly they would be excommunicated for belonging to a secret society. So in a strange way the Catholic Church limits to some degree the right of Church membership to belong to a social club not so much for content but because they are secretive. Catholics in our area still have plenty of outlets to be mindless bigots such as being members of the Tea Party.

[struggle4progress]

61. F*wittedness and a*holery seem to afflict a certain portion of the entire population of the world,

regardless of whatever other categories people might fall under. There's a black neoconfederate somewhere around these parts, who gets himself a bit of TV coverage every now and then: my attitude towards such folk is, "If I understood them, I'd be crazy too"

[gordianot]

69. I used to frequent a restaurant that in the corner had a small hook in the corner.

The restaurant owner seemed like a nice guy we often spoke in public. There was a small notice in the restaurant which said "reserved for the hat of the GD". One day I asked who is the GD and never went back. There also seem to be some very easily detected vocal crazies and those who are secretive in their nuttiness. I don't know which is worse.

[greatauntoftriplets]

92. I well remember the anti-Catholic rhetoric about JFK.

Some feared that the Catholic church would rule the country! All of which was untrue, of course.

The Klan would burn crosses on the lawns of Catholics in the town where my father grew up during the timeframe that you reference. That was in Illinois!

[HiPointDem]

25. no, actually, fairly widespread anti-catholicism lasted long past the civil war.

[BainsBane]

30. like slavery

is totally irrelevant. Right? There has been a great deal of ongoing discrimination since then. I suggest you pick up a college level US history text book.

[ButterflyBlood]

50. I was born in the80s and never ONCE dealt with discrimination against Catholics

Never. Not once. Nor did I ever hear anyone in my family report it ever.

So we can conclude all of this ceased in the 80s.

[No Vested Interest]

97. The Idea that because one person born in the 80's

didn't experience something means that it no longer exists defies logic.

One person = all current people?

Does anyone out there think maybe all DUers need to pass a basic course in logic before posting OPs?
In the immortal words of Donald Rumsfeld:"There are things we don't know we don't know."
Too much of that showing around here lately.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Oh my, all the way to the 1960s at least

It was in law. For example, if you buy property in La Jolla, deeds still have prohibition clauses, not legally enforceable any more, against selling the property to Catholics, Jews and well Blacks. They use the N word.

Those are 1960s, not 1850s vintage.

[ButterflyBlood]

66. That doesn't sound like it'd even be enforcable at the time

You can identify blacks fairly easy for obvious reasons, but you can't identify Catholics. One could easily lie about being Catholic. And how would Catholic be defined anyway? I was baptized and confirmed but haven't identified as such for well over a decade, do you have to formally convert to something else to not be considered cover under that prohibition anymore or just quit going to Mass? It seems like a rather vague prohibition.

But whatever the case, that's still 50 years ago. I'm talking about contemporary examples. I was born in the 80s and have never seen anything like this, so we can conclude that it probably ceased before the 80s.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Oh they did

The people showing the property did.

This ended up in court. Why it is no longer legal...the case, Iirc, is 1980s vintage.

[ButterflyBlood]

77. How would they identify a potential buyer as Catholic?

Sounds to me like enforcing that would basically rely on the honor system.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. They did

The class action was brought by Jews and Catholics.

The point is...it existed, it still exists.

It might not be as bad as it once was...or not as obvious...but it does. A lot of it these days is in attitudes...and stereotypes, and media representations

Oh and yes, kids still get bulled and beaten up 'cause you know what? They are papists.

[ButterflyBlood]

86. Can you provide links to these allegations?

Because while stories of racist hate crimes are still all over, I've never heard of anything like this. And I'm still wondering how you could enforce a property deed like that as there is no way to identify someone as a Catholic just by meeting them or seeing them.

When my parents were married, my father's Lutheran side of the family was perfectly OK with it. This included his eldest brother, who had converted to a rather conservative evangelical church, and was even a pastor. Even he didn't have a problem with his brother marrying a Catholic and never showed any animosity toward Catholics during his life. Nor do his children who are still alive today and mostly not only evangelicals as well but relatively conservative ones. My mother's side of the family did have some old and now dead people who threw a fit and even threatened to boycott the wedding. Who is being more bigoted and discriminatory there?

My mom sponsored her niece, my cousin for Confirmation. Even though she was her sister's daughter, her sister converted and it was a Lutheran confirmation. The Lutheran church had no problem with this and allowed it, and allow any Christian as a sponsor. I wasn't allowed to have a non-Catholic sponsor. Who is being more discriminatory there?

[Generic Other]

187. Restrictive covenants

A restrictive covenant is a type of real covenant, a legal obligation imposed in a deed by the seller upon the buyer of real estate to do or not to do something. Such restrictions frequently "run with the land" and are enforceable on subsequent buyers of the property...Before 1948, these covenants were legally used for segregationist purposes.[5] A covenant promised that only members of a certain race could occupy the property.

The Fair Housing Act of 1968 made housing discrimination on the basis of race or color, including racially restrictive covenants, illegal. The Fair Housing Act also created the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity which is charged with administering and enforcing the act.

In a project conducted by the University of Washington's Civil Rights and Labor History Program in 2010, it was found that more than 400 properties in Seattle suburbs alone retained discriminatory language that had once excluded racial minorities. "These restrictions just sit there quietly, casting a shadow of segregation in neighborhoods to this day," said James Gregory, a history professor at The University of Washington.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictive_covenant

[ButterflyBlood]

195. I'm aware those existed, but as noted, they refer to RACE

What I'm asking about is the claim some of them also restricted Catholics, which as I noted is completely unenforceable.

[Generic Other]

196. Not sure that people wouldn't discriminate based on names

Irish, Italian, Polish, Hispanic. Same as present-day discrimination in hiring exists toward those with African American sounding names.

There's a suburb in my town that banned Af. Americans and Jews. I guess enforceable due to busybodies in the neighborhood profiling newcomers?

[ButterflyBlood]

198. But people who converted would still have those names

That would make denying them housing just plain old racism. I know plenty of people with last names of those ethnicities at my (Protestant) church.

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. You know what...go to your local library

And READ on this, I know this s history. There are crusty old tomes put there you can find on the subject.

At this point I have to conclude you cannot conceive that this ever happened, let alone still happens, a lot less mind you. Nor that this place has been filled in the recent past with pretty bigoted statements regarding practicing Catholics.

Bigotry *is* bigotry. It is based on rank ignorance...willful at times. Sometimes it is also racism, bigotry and racism at times are hard to distinguish. But this lovely country has some really dark history (and current matters). I cannot force you to open your eyes. But most progressives know at least great swaths of it.

There...

I really am not surprised at the denial. A city on the hill, example to the word (the American myth) is not consistent with the reality at times.

Trust me...there are whole histories of immigrant communities and how they were (they are) treated.

At this point it's up to you to go to those pesky libraries, preferably a University library, and look into it.

[sabrina 1]

119. Why should anyone have to hide who or what they are in order to buy a house?

Of course they could lie and pretend to be something they are not. The very fact that they had to do that is a result of bigotry.

I know someone who is a Catholic who married into a wealthy family from Cape Cod. They objected to the marriage and made comments such as 'aren't the Irish all maids and nannies'? Or 'don't they live in thatched cottages in Ireland'?

Bigotry is based on ignorance, and there are always going to be ignorant people in the world.

JFK broke the unwritten law against Catholics being allowed to run for the presidency. Just as Obama broke it regarding African Americans. That was in the 'sixties and if you think that that ended the bigotry, then you must believe that Obama winning ended the bigotry against African Americans.

[ButterflyBlood]

122. Would any Catholic running for President today have a problem because they are Catholic?

If I, an ex-Catholic liberal evangelical, ran against Rick Santorum for the Presidency (wouldn't be possible in 2016 though as I still wouldn't be 35 yet), who do you think would win the evangelical vote?

[sabrina 1]

129. If they were a Liberal Catholic, they might, see Kerry.

Catholics,like every other group are made up of all kinds of people, Republicans, and a huge number of them are Democrats. They are Democrats, as I am, because unlike Santorum, they actually learned their Liberal views from their early Catholic education. Things like caring about the poor, the elderly, the sick just like the man after whom the religion is named.

[ButterflyBlood]

183. Why would a liberal Catholic be running as a Republican?

I could only run against someone like Kerry in a Democratic primary. But I guarantee that if I was running against Santorum or Paul Ryan, most wouldn't think that they'd have to vote for the "real Christian" over the Papist. They'd have no trouble backing a right wing Catholic, just as they did for Santorum in the 2012 primaries.

This by the way is the effect my Catholic upbringing had on me: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2530972

Luckily going to a public school meant that it played little role overall and was a complete non-factor after I was confirmed.

[sabrina 1]

191. You could ask the same question about any oppressed group in this country who have fought

against that oppression. The fact that they had to fight to gain equality and access and to some or to a great extent, succeeded, eg JFK broke the anti-Catholic barrier but it was not easy, just as Obama broke the African American barrier, doesn't mean that all bigotry has been erased. To answer your question, a Catholic and an African American can now more easily run for high office. But do you think that means there is no longer any bigotry in this country?

[ButterflyBlood]

193. Against blacks of course not, but against Catholics, certainly

The only real anti-Catholicism I've ever seen that could be described as "bigoted" is usually from bitter and angry ex-Catholics.

[Bluenorthwest]

229. Why? Today, in 27 States it is legal to discriminate against LGBT people in housing.

And yet we are speaking about vague bits of history. I guess it is worse to discriminate against some than others. No one ever posts outrage at that current fact.

[nadinbrzezinski]

238. I like vague generalizations

And by the way, just because you think people are not equally outraged on attacks on LGBT, des not mean it is so.

But hey, in the recent month or so the attacks on practicing Catholics here have become very brash and painful. That does not mean the rest of us are not financial supporters of the equals right campaign, nor that we do not fight that fight as well.

It seems to me at least...that you have a huge chip on that shoulder of yours...and cannot understand that bigotry is wrong, regardless who is the target.

I hope you can grow as a person and realize that bigotry is bigotry, and all forms of it are wrong.

[amandabeech]

214. Restrictive covenants became uneforceable in the 1960s with enforcement of the original

post-slavery laws and the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Anything you saw in a real estate contract was detritus and had been unenforceable for almost 20 years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

218. I just remember the case

[Bluenorthwest]

230. In 27 States it is legal today to discriminate against LGBT in housing. Today.

Just for perspective.

[Luminous Animal]

228. That would be 1968 vintage with the establishment of the Fair Housing Act.

The Supreme Court addressed the issue of racial restrictive covenants in 1948 and handed down the decision that they were illegal.

[hedgehog]

152. Actually, my mother was a victim of anti-Catholic bigotry c.1949 -

she wanted to study nursing at a state school in Ohio (Ohio State?) but was not admitted because there was a quota limiting the number of Catholics admitted. Instead of getting her BS in Nursing, she ended up with a simple diploma from a hospital school. She worked full time most of her life, and did go to night school for a while, but she just didn't have the energy to do that after age 45.

The real irony here: the year she took her licensing exam, she came in first in the state.

[ButterflyBlood]

155. That's still 64 years ago

Quite far from the modern day. Also I'm guessing that quota (seeing as how it was a public school) probably was imposed because it was assumed Catholics would just go to Catholic schools instead. Still ignorant and stupid yes. But how do you enforce that quota? If you it asks you for religion on the application form you could simply lie or "decline to state".

[hedgehog]

164. " If you it asks you for religion on the application form you could simply lie or "decline to state"

You forget - it was 64 years ago.

I mentioned this because it was suggested that prejudice against Catholics was something that wasn't known in living memory. Mom passed away two years ago, but Dad is still around.

When I was a kid in the 60's, there was discussion of adding kindergarten to the public school. It was assumed that class sizes could be limited, because "of course", the Catholics would go to their own school, i.e, the public schools were for the Protestants.

It is hard to comprehend what it meant for us Catholics when John Kennedy was elected President. He opened the gates and made a lot of things no longer acceptable.

[ButterflyBlood]

166. 64 years ago you are still capable of lying on the forms

Hell even if you don't feel right about lying you could just go to a Protestant church one Sunday before filling it out and then claim a conversion. I know for sure I would never put down "Catholic" on any form or official document especially if it possibly would be a detriment to me.

[hedgehog]

171. “Vas you dere, Sharlie?”

You are very naive if you think things haven't improved immensely since the 40's, 50's and 60's! Life has changed since then, very much for the better!

[ButterflyBlood]

173. Of course things have improved. I'm just wondering why the time means one couldn't lie on the form.

That might be why writing something along the lines of "None of your business, it's not relevant to the application" wouldn't work, but it doesn't mean one couldn't simply decline to identify as Catholic.

[hedgehog]

175. People knew back then, from your name, the schools you went to,

your parent's name, where you lived, where you were born, etc. It was the same for Jews. It didn't matter what you put on an application, people knew.

[ButterflyBlood]

176. What if you converted? nt

[hedgehog]

179. You mean, avoid prejudice against Catholics by ceasing to be a Catholic?

Seriously?

[ButterflyBlood]

182. Since I converted myself WITHOUT any discrimination, I don't see that as an awful proposition

I mean if I wasn't willing to be a Catholic in the modern day with basically no baggage attached to it, I'm sure as not going to be one if it also would cause discrimination against me and increased baggage.

But my question was more that if you converted, those things wouldn't correctly identify you anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

189. Things have radically changed

To the point you cannot even imagine it.

This is both good and bad. It's good you can't imagine it.

Given the American penchant to forget history this is fertile ground for this shit to happen again.

Those who forget History are condemned to repeat it....Santayana.

[life long demo]

227. I'm breaking my recently self imposed vacation on posting

to DU, It's hard because I love this place. ButterflyBlood and others, I have read every post on this conversation and I have to say as kindly as I can, you are a bigoted anti-catholic. You are allow to believe what ever you believe, but stop the accusations against anyone or anything having to do with being Catholic. I probably will get punished for this, I understand. But this whole thing about the anti-catholic posts on this and other OPs is out of hand. Please someone put a stop to it. Help, I asking for help!

[No Vested Interest]

232. Thank you for your reasoned statement

The tenor of the OP, with the same explanation repeated over and over, is out-of-bounds.
I'm beginning to think DU needs an in-house psychologist for the Johnny-One-Notes in the crowd.

[ButterflyBlood]

235. I've actually been quite a bit more mild than plenty of other people

I've never posted "Fuck the Catholic Church and the Pope" (something I've seen multiple times) or called the new Pope a fascist, etc. and I even objected to claiming that all Catholics are pedophiles and pedophile-enablers. The main reason I made the OP was because I was deeply offended by a post I saw elsewhere where someone compared LGBT to Catholics and basically said Catholics are just as discriminated against. And I'm not even LGBT myself. It'd also be kind of weird for me to be "bigoted" toward Catholics since many people here seem to be defining Catholics as certain ethnicities and demographics (in other words things that can't be changed even if one converts) and I was raised Catholic myself....so by that standard I'm bigoted against myself.

[JDPriestly]

11. And let's remember that the Catholic Church persecuted non-Catholics

for centuries in Europe. Many Americans are descended from those who were persecuted. That is part of the problem.

Plus, schools segregated by religion -- well, they segregate and separate people and give rise to stereotypes.

I think that this experience for Catholics on DU is a good opportunity to think about the value of tolerance. The Catholic Church, historically, has been proud of its "purity," which to Protestants meant "intolerance."

We all need to understand that each person has the right to his or her personal religious beliefs.

I value tolerance more than I value my own religious beliefs. Because my religious beliefs are my thoughts about how things work. I certainly have no right to try to impose my ideas on others. Neither does any specific Church or person. No one really knows for sure what is true and what is false when it comes to religion. We all need to remember that. That is the basis of tolerance. So when anyone claims to know the only truth, I think that is intolerance.

[MicaelS]

57. How long is the...

"Your distant ancestor persecuted my distant ancestor" going to be allowed to excuse present behavior?

[ButterflyBlood]

60. It's silly, but it's being used more as a defense of Catholicism here

I've already seen several posts citing KKK activity from seven decades ago when I asked for CURRENT examples.

[JDPriestly]

160. Probably really, really long depending on the degree of tolerance and acceptance

the Catholic Church as an organization demonstrates for other religions (things like recognizing other churches' authority to marry and baptize people) and for persecuted groups like gays or excluded groups like women within its organization.

It will be especially difficult for the Catholic Church to respect and consider as equal the baptisms and other rituals that take place in Protestant and other churches. That's a big, big deal and it will be a tough one for the Catholic hierarchy because it would mean abandoning the doctrine that the Catholic Church is the one true Christian church.

People of other religions have difficulty with the fact that their religious ceremonies and texts are not viewed as equal to those of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church sort of has a form of separate but equal in its discrimination against the rites of other Christian churches. If you were baptized as a child in a Protestant Church and you want to be accepted as already baptized in the Catholic Church, you have to be baptized all over. At least that is my understanding. That shows a disdain for and intolerance of other Christian religions.

[JDPriestly]

12. What do you mean by "persecuted"

Do you mean forced to convert to another religion? Do you mean burned at the stake? What do you mean by persecuted?

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. In the us it took the form

Of denial of work, denial of shelter, general beat ins, denial to sell property, at times burning small parish churches.

Denial of service at eating establishments was also common, ridiculing... Harassment, bullying...

No, it was not burning at the stake precisely.

In colonial times Catholics were also refused entry into several of the Colonies, chiefly New England and Pensilvania. The Carolina's were the only ones open even to those under forced transportation orders.

Things like Christmas and Eastern were discouraged (think of the irony given today) as not real Christian holidays...

I could go on.

The history is long.

[ButterflyBlood]

84. How do you deny Catholics service at eating establishments?

It's easy to do that to those of a different skin color because that's obvious, but it's not like one can identify a Catholic just by looking at someone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. My lord, should we recommend some history books?

Serious, it was done...

[ButterflyBlood]

156. Then I'm legitimately curious

It's easy to see how blacks could be denied service as it's easy to identify someone as black visibly. However this can not be done to identify someone as Catholic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

159. Very easy, people self identified

And lived in non mixed neighborhoods. You are talking of cities and towns tat were far more segregated. People were also identified by items of clothing. With Jews it's easy...if you are a Protestant bar keep in 19th century NY, you could tell the poles, the Italians and the Irish...all three catholic. It was all clothes and accents.

Also immigrants quickly found "their people" ad moved into the neighborhood.

This process is happening right now with middle eastern immigrants. We have a section in El Cajon known locally as Little Baghdad. Care to take a guess where these immigrants are coming from?

[ButterflyBlood]

161. That sounds more like straight racism than anti-Catholicism

Imagine if one of those immigrants converted to Protestantism but kept the same clothes and accent. It wouldn't be much better for them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. No, it was bigotry against papist.

It still is. With the election of Kennedy some thought it was over, but cases still filter into The courts.

Some is geographic. In a large coastal city you are not too likely to come across it...in the Deep South your chances increase exponentially.

That said, we rarely do cover hate crimes even in larger cities, mostly graffiti, at churches and temples. The last target was a Greek Orthodox Church. We do have a sub group of white nationalists and Christian identity that these days make no distinction between Christian denominations, as long as it is not them.

For that, the Southern Poverty Law Center is a jewel. Oh they cover all forms of hate groups and bigotry/racism.

[ButterflyBlood]

172. So let's say one of those immigrants converted

They wouldn't be Catholic anymore, but they'd still be identified as such by the traits you mention.

I'd also be surprised if there was any noticeable visible difference between Protestant and Catholic ancestors at the time. There were Germans on both sides after all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

180. In the 19th century you were no longer a Catholic

Tribes of New York is a good movie.

I just realized, you are at least ten years my junior. It probably comes down to your personal experience and knowledge of history. If you live in a large coastal city in the US, especially the Northeast, or the West Coast...most of this is history and you have never ever seen it. These are the places where tolerance for LGBT is also at an all time high.

Now if you live in the Bible Belt this is very actionable. You know, for the same exact reason as LGBT folks, it's the other, and the creation of such.

It gets worst, as an immigrant, with a heavy accent, who married an Irish American, knowing this, I would never willingly move to a small town in the Bible Belt.

It's not that they are bad people, bigotry is real. Incidentally, would not move to a small town in the California Central Valley either, or rural areas in Michigan or Ohio either. It is not theory in these areas...it is real. For that matter a few of my extremely small towns in my own East County. Nothing lovelier than a blood flag near a vegetable stand, you might guess why we have not stopped there ever again. As a jew, and daughter of the Holocaust...it was a tad...shall we say...jarring.

At this point I seriously suggest, if you are really curious, that you start by exploring the Southern Poverty Law Center website and move from there.

[ButterflyBlood]

181. I'm not even 30, and I live in Minneapolis

Here in Minnesota there isn't much ethnic difference between Catholics and Protestants, because the Catholics are mostly German, who are just as likely to be Lutheran. So you can't identify one's religious background just by last name or anything like that. Also they immigrated a lot longer ago, and these type of ethnicities have mostly faded. Same for Scandinavians, you might have a last name with a j somewhere in a weird looking spot or that ends in "-son", but you don't think of yourself as anything but a white Midwesterner. There's a definite Midwestern culture, but it's based on any type of ethnicity or heritage because those things are weak influences now, and most people have had some intermarriage at some point in their ancestry and no one is 100% German or Swedish or Norwegian or whatever. Because of this there isn't much in terms of a Catholic identity amongst most people, and especially not amongst people my age. If you are raised in the church and don't like it, you leave and that's that. It's not in any way controversial or uncommon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

184. That explains it.

You live in an area where this is mostly not actionable any longer.

But there are places in the US where this still matters.

Now trends....are for less church, temple, left handed widget attendance and the rise of secularism across the US. But in some places that process is going much slower.

And while cases of anti catholic bigotry (since we are on that) are rare these days...they still happen.

Now, see those Christian Identity Churches I mentioned? I expect those folks to become even more reactionary as the process accelerates. I also expect the RW of (insert religion here) to try to get those old time prejudices going again.

Religions in general are bleeding members and the process is accelerating actually.

In the meantime my motto is tolerance for members of all religions, even if I am very critical of more than a few religious hierarchies, including the catholic hierarchy.

It's the golden mean truly, treat others as you wish to be treated.

[zappaman]

186. "Tribes of New York is a good movie."

It's GANGS OF NEW YORK, just so ya know...

[zappaman]

99. "Denial of service at eating establishments was also common"

Bullshit.

[Arugula Latte]

114. So it seems the current "persection" of Catholics amounts

to people saying negative things about the Church on the Internet.

Meanwhile, the Church continues to discriminate against women and gays and take their rights away and/or prevent them from gaining equal rights.

There's really no comparison.

[JDPriestly]

121. Maryland was Catholic as I understand it.

Also, as I explained the other day, many of the early European Americans were escaping from Catholic persecution of a more serious kind that culminated in wars in Europe. They were very anti-Catholic because they had been so hurt by Catholicism.

We all need to support the First Amendment's separation of church and state. When churches, regardless of kind, become very involved in government, persecution follows.

When church and state work too closely together, the church uses the repressive tools of the state to assert its dominance over people. That is what we must avoid.

[ButterflyBlood]

126. I can relate to that pretty well

"Also, as I explained the other day, many of the early European Americans were escaping from Catholic persecution of a more serious kind that culminated in wars in Europe. They were very anti-Catholic because they had been so hurt by Catholicism."

I too was hurt by the church, so it's hard not to be anti-Catholic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. Separate issue separation of church and state

Bigotry is very real to this day, and cases (chiefly in the South) still filter into the Courts.

[JDPriestly]

199. Sorry. I disagree.

The reason that we don't have such a problem about the feuds among the churches is that we have separation of church and state. We would still have Puritans versus Catholics had we not just deemed religion to be completely separate from government.

Nothing wrong with people in government worshiping as their conscience requires, but we need to keep religious sectarianism out of politics and government. That is hard to do in countries like Italy in which a huge percentage of people are of the same religion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. Misunderstood.

The issue of separation is separate from rank bigotry like what we are seeing here.

Also why a lot of the cases are coming before courts is precisely because a local majority imposes their faith on minorities. Usually these days it has to do with prayer before athletic events or school councils.

[JDPriestly]

203. I agree with this:

Also why a lot of the cases are coming before courts is precisely because a local majority imposes their faith on minorities. Usually these days it has to do with prayer before athletic events or school councils.

Tolerance is a challenge, but we all benefit when we meet that challenge. I believe that sectarian religious matters should not be brought into government or publicly owned institutions. That's how we can insure tolerance for everyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

204. Yup, but I want to separate what we are seeing here on the ol' DU

And government.

By the way we covered a very local meeting of a very local board...no pledge, can you believe it?

One of my city councils had to explain in the agenda why there is no longer prayer...

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

128. I've read that the strong prejudice against the Irish, the French Cajuns, and the Polish

was due in part to their Catholicism.

[JDPriestly]

169. Yes. And think about the schism in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics,

the expulsion of the Protestant Hugenots and the conflicts between the German Protestant, Jewish and Catholic residents in Poland.

Here is a story that I came across at random on the internet when I tried to Google something related to persecutions in France. I do not know the person who wrote it.

http://www.math.washington.edu/~rtr/name.pdf

As I understand it, the Catholic Church does not view rites like baptism or marriage performed by Protestants to have the same value or to be the same as those rites when performed within the Catholic Church. So if you were baptized as a Methodist, I think you have to be re-baptized to join the Catholic Church. I don't think that is true of some of the Protestant churches. They accept a Catholic baptism as the same as their own. This may not be true of all Protestants.

Personally I think that is kind of crazy -- to refuse to view the baptism ritual performed in another church as equal to one performed in your church. I don't know whether Baptists and other fundamentalists feel the same as the Catholic Church in that respect.

I am in favor of far more tolerance on the parts of all religions. All or most modern religions claim to believe in one God -- but they seem to think they have a monopoly on that God. I just don't see that at all.

[ButterflyBlood]

174. I can assure you the latter part is not true

The Catholic Church accepts all Christian baptisms as valid as long as they are done using water and the Trinitarian formula unless it's a group that they view too far theologically distant from them (like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.) A Methodist baptism would certainly be considered valid by a Catholic Church.

http://catholicexchange.com/do-converts-have-to-be-rebaptized

Many Protestants don't accept Catholic baptisms as valid, but the reason is not anything about Catholicism or being outside of their denomination, but that they don't hold any baptism of infants or not by full immersion to be valid. So it doesn't meet their criteria for a valid baptism. If you were baptized as an adult and by full immersion it would be considered valid, as rare as those type of baptisms are in the Catholic Church.

I actually was rebaptized a year ago by a church that doesn't baptize infants itself, but doesn't make a big fuss about converts that were or consider it some sort of necessity to get rebaptized. I did it because I wanted to.

[JDPriestly]

197. You may be right and, if so, I apologize for the wrong information.

I based my statement on personal memories. Maybe the Catholic Church has changed -- or maybe the situation that I am familiar with was unusual. Thanks.

[The Straight Story]

10. It comes down to something really, really, simple - called principle

Someone says "Don't judge group X by what Y does within that group" because it could promote hate, stereotypes, etc.

Then that someone does the exact same thing to another group.

I could tell you a lot of stories about certain folks here in the hood and use that to explain why some folks here hold racial prejudices. I would be told by others that such is wrong because it is a small sampling, etc and so on (and they would be right).

over 400,000 catholic priests. Over 1 billion church members.

So when people focus on the bad a few do that equal a tiny percent you have to ask yourself what their agenda is and why they stereotype so much.

I posted a story not long ago about a teacher molesting a kid and it got covered up. One reply I think. And you can search the news yourself everyday and find teachers and other people in power who use that to hurt kids.

It is a small percent of the total from any group.

But like many other things we revel in fear. All gun owners are killers. All people in the US who do not work for the government might be terrorists so lets get the TSA going, etc - because a small fraction less than 1% might possibly be.

We don't give a damn about the good these orgs/people do and if we did this board would be flooded daily with the good deeds they do.

But that is no fun. It does not enforce a stereotype we want to keep.

DU becomes more and more like rw boards on some things - villify a group and spend hours and many threads building that up. Not very progressive.

If you look for reasons to hate and be pissed off/outraged you can find them.

[Niceguy1]

14. I agree.

It is starting to get to the point that I would rather be called a liberal than a progressive.

I just don't seen the need for all of the hate. It is poison and acts like a cancer in someone's soul.

[Skittles]

16. how many of those priests are women?

sorry, I would not want to sterotype

[Gravitycollapse]

28. My god...the irony.

[JDPriestly]

136. The Catholic Church is perceived as a monolithic entity.

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 06:36 PM - Edit history (1)

That is probably because of its top-down, hierarchical structure.

There was a story some months ago about a Protestant pastor who was sexually abusing people in his congregation.

The difference between that story which resulted in the shaming of the individual pastor and the stories about the Catholic Church which have resulted in the condemnation of the entire Church was that the Catholic Church because of its organization is more involved in what each priest does. A lot of Protestant churches are more loosely organized. Some of them are just individual groups, each led by a pastor pretty much.

Protestants do not identify with the hierarchies of their churches and are not as easily viewed as responsible as individual members or pastors for the aberrant behavior of individual pastors or youth leaders quite simply because of the relatively loose organization of the churches. Generally, if something happens, say pedophilia, in a Protestant church (and it does as shown by a lot of legal documentation), at least nowadays, the person who commits the crime has no organization to protect him or her. The criminal is pretty much on his/her own. There may be exceptions, but generally not.

The problem for the Catholic Church was that it was moving problem priests around and protecting them. For the Catholic Church, the pedophilia was a problem of the Church. It should have turned the priests in to the police but did not -- probably for perfectly understandable spiritual reasons as well as its desire to protect its organization.

Further, the Catholic Church has its own country, the Vatican, which purports to have diplomatic status. I can't think of another church that claims to be a country. I understand that was a big problem for Italy during the banking scandals involving the Vatican Bank in the 1970s and 1980s.

So, one of the reasons that the Catholic Church and its members are held responsible for things when that is not true of other churches is that the Catholic Church has a top-down, hierarchical structure.

There are big advantages to the Church for that, but there are also huge disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that the huge bureaucracy and hierarchy is unwieldy. It cannot "change its mind" quickly and easily. Some other churches can although not all of them do. Some of the other churches just hold a convention, have lay and clergy delegates and vote on resolutions and the outcome is the policy of the church. The Catholic Church has a tougher process. The bishops work their ways up in the Church. The laity doesn't have the same power that they have in Protestant Churches. This and the idea that the Pope can speak directly the word of God tend to make it harder for the Catholic Church to adapt to changes in society. Again -- this has both advantages and disadvantages.

The Anglican and Methodist churches are somewhat similar to the Catholic Church in their form but they also have a lot more lay involvement in their governance, though not as much as many of their members would like especially with regard to the assignment of pastors.

So those are some of the reasons, I think, why "the Catholic Church" is viewed as one huge body and the members of it are more readily viewed as agreeing with whatever the Catholic Church says.

I do hope that the Catholic Church will find a way to deal with the drawbacks of its organization. And remember, there are huge drawbacks to the more democratic organizations of some of the other churches. For example, sometimes a few members of a Protestant Church break off and then dispute who really owns the church's assets. Big problem. That can be very costly and cause a lot of anger. There probably isn't any perfect alternative.

I would not interpret criticism of the Catholic Church as criticism of individual Catholics. And I think Catholics can be very proud of the wonderful social work, charity and healing that their Church does. In part the Catholic Church is so effective in that work because of its hierarchical organization. It is much better organized than are the other churches with regard to getting things done.

I remember what a young woman who was doing her medical residency said when she had to choose between two jobs, one in a hospital not affiliated with a religion and one in a Catholic hospital. Now, mind you. She was not a Catholic, but she said what she liked about the Catholic hospital was that when a patient died, the doctors and nurses and those who had cared for the patient met in the hospital chapel to pray together. She really liked that. So there are many aspects of the Catholic religion that Catholics can be very proud of.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Is that needed in order to demonstrate civility toward DU'ers who are Catholic?

I am gay. I am fully aware of the problems my community faces, as well as those I face personally. I am also keenly aware of the problems with the Catholic Church and various issues with the religion itself. However, there have been a number of bigoted and ignorant remarks as of recent and they need to stop! Attack the Church...fine. When you (general) start attacking those who follow the faith, then there is a problem. When you start attacking members who also share that faith, there is a problem. Catholics may not be victims of discrimination in the world at large, but this isn't the world at large, and a modicum of respect to those members here should be extended.

There are always going to be disagreements as to what constitutes bigotry, but calling all Catholics "criminals" or "pedophile enablers" is beyond the pale and in NO WAY civil!

[pnwmom]

21. Thank you. n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

52. Good post.

You beat me to it....

It seems the point of the OP was to somehow minimize attacks against DU Catholics.

Thank you for speaking up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Yup

[cali]

19. no, but there's a lot of ugly bigotry against Catholics here, honey.

[Le Taz Hot]

20. After Two Thousand Years

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 07:37 AM - Edit history (1)

of being the Masters of Persecution reigning down torture and death on millions . . . literally millions of innocent people . . . their plea is pretty fucking incredulous.

Sorry, but I remember their PROMINENT role in getting California's dreaded Prop. H8 passed. Poured MILLIONS of dollars into this state to deny marriage equality to the people of this state. You know, it's a good thing there weren't any needy people at the end of 2008 otherwise their money might have been better spent helping the poor.

I've stayed away from the Catholic bashing on this board but the OP makes a good point. The Catholic Church has NO grounds upon which to stand when the topic is persecution. None.

[pnwmom]

22. Catholics were a key group SUPPORTING marriage equality in the state of Washington.

It didn't matter what the Bishops were saying, Catholics voted their conscience and passed the bill for marriage equality in significantly higher numbers than Washington voters overall.

[Le Taz Hot]

26. We're talking about two different things here.

You're talking about members of the Catholic Church, I'm talking about the Catholic Church itself. I'm happy the rank-and-file Catholics chose to do the right thing in Washington but that doesn't negate the fact that the RCC and the Fundy Christian Churches bankrolled Prop. H8 in California. They initiated and bankrolled hate and bigotry and I'm not going to forget that, particularly since that abomination is still in our state Constitution.

[pnwmom]

59. As the nun said on 60 Minutes last night, "I AM the Church."

To a post-Vatican 2 Catholic, the "Catholic Church" comprises it's billion members -- all of them. The "Catholic Church" is just as much any of those nuns, or the people in the pews, as it is the tiny group of males in the hierarchy.

You don't seem to realize that Catholics aren't obligated to tithe a single dime to the Church. Many progressive Catholics prefer to donate instead to organizations such as Catholic Community Charities or even to non-Church charities such as food banks. Others do give to their local parishes but don't contribute to the once yearly collection for the Vatican.

[Le Taz Hot]

90. There is a hierachy in the Catholic Church

and I choose to recognize that. You can choose to ignore that if you wish. The fact is that SOMEONE in the Catholic church decided to pour millions of dollars into hate legislation. If you want to blame the laity or the Nuns on the Bus or Joe Schmoe that goes to mass 3 times a week, that's up to you.

[pnwmom]

177. It's funny how much more recognition outsiders give to the self-appointed hierarchy

than actual living Catholics do.

Neither the laity nor the nuns on the bus decided to spend money on the hate legislation.

[Le Taz Hot]

200. Which was, of course,

my point.

[alarimer]

120. No, she isn't, at least judging by what it officially stands for.

Those people have made not one damn bit of difference to the murderous policies carried out. It is a top-down organization, like the Mob. Why someone would be a part of an organization that considers them second-class citizens is beyond me. No one is going to change it from within. The only way it will is it if it withers on the vine by people leaving in droves.

[pnwmom]

178. Yes, she is, according to Vatican 2 and the Catholics who accepted it. nt

[ButterflyBlood]

42. So then why do those voters stay Catholic?

Why not leave? You can always join a church that doesn't find bigotry.

[pnwmom]

55. Most Catholics would rather try to change the Church from within.

They grew up caring about the Church and know they can't do anything to improve it from the outside.

They especially value their local communities, which they feel a strong part of and don't want to leave.

[ButterflyBlood]

82. I never got that impression growing up

At the youngest age I just saw the Church as out of touch and boring, and once I got older I started to realize more and saw it as rotten and evil to the core. I certainly didn't care about it in any way.

I did sort of see that with the Lutheran church my family sometimes went to instead, maybe still a little out of touch to my generation, but at least generally well intentioned unlike the Catholic church. This is why I saw myself more as Lutheran than Catholic in terms of culture and what I nominally identified as in college, regardless of what I was confirmed in. After all, it's not like it was my choice.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

212. Feminists, try to find a Christian church that does NOT have an all-male Trinity.

Knock yourself out.

[ButterflyBlood]

221. Sure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_the_Holy_Spirit#Female_attribution

[Manifestor_of_Light]

240. Where is that taught in any major denomination?

That the Holy Spirit is feminine? Because I haven't found it.

The section you pointed me to talks about Hebrew and Syriac. It isn't in English which is what most English speaking people would read.

The section about English translation says all the English translations have the holy spirit as male.

I've never seen the Holy Spirit taught as feminine in the major Christian denominations that I've visited.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

242. ......still waiting........(taps foot)

[Union Scribe]

32. "I've stayed away from the Catholic bashing on this board"

Lol. You've done yeoman's work of defending it. I'd hardly call that "staying away."

[Le Taz Hot]

33. I've posted exactly 3 posts on this subject

and 2 of them are in this thread. And I've no idea what a "yeoman's work" is. Feel free to counter anything I've posted as opposed to going after me personally. You either have debating skills or you don't.

[Gravitycollapse]

36. Being a yeoman is somebody assistive or loyal to a cause.

So doing Yeoman's work is fighting for or assisting a cause.

[Le Taz Hot]

37. Then the poster gives me much more

credit for time/dedication on a subject that I've actually spent about 15 minutes thinking about. Thanks for the explanation.

[Rex]

98. Kinda sad ain't it?

That was has zero debating skills.

[cartach]

23. Great example of

shit disturbing. Sounds like you are trying to stir up your own little bit of controversey to keep you occupied during the rest of the day. Much ado about nothing.

[BainsBane]

29. Here is a summary

"Discrimination Against Catholics
The founders of the United States, like the early population, were almost entirely of Protestant background. Catholicism met much resistance in the United States until sheer numbers forced its integration into American society. A deep anti-Catholic sentiment, inherited from Great Britain, existed in colonial America. Some colonies had laws restricting or banning Catholicism. The settling of the colony of Maryland by English Catholics was perhaps the only exception. At the time of the Revolution, Catholics made up just over one percent of the American population. While the First Amendment to the Constitution guaranteed freedom of religion, it did not compel Protestant Americans to accept Catholic newcomers. Protestants resented Catholicism on theological grounds, often making fun of and belittling Catholic religious rites and customs. The common Christian link between Protestantism and Catholicism meant little.
As American Catholicism spread during the 19th century, anti-Catholic violence saw churches burned, Catholics massacred, property destroyed, and the growth of anti-foreigner and anti-Catholic organizations like the “Know Nothings.” Beyond violence, Catholics routinely became victims of discrimination in employment and housing.

By the turn of the 20th century, growing numbers, especially in the big cities, gave Catholics political power, and yet the struggle continued. The unsuccessful presidential campaign of Al Smith in 1928, in which Smith’s Catholicism became a divisive political issue, underscored the century of struggle. The Catholicism of candidate John F. Kennedy nearly cost him the 1960 election, but Kennedy did win by an extremely small margin against Richard Nixon. During both elections, opponents of the candidates suggested that a Catholic, if elected president, would “take orders” from the Pope. The success of Kennedy’s presidency and the tragedy of his assassination made Kennedy a mainstream and iconic American figure whose religion became truly incidental. Kennedy’s election showed, perhaps, the last vestiges of endemic anti-Catholicism.

In the 21st century, anti-Catholicism is mainly the purview of a small group of bigots, who also hate everybody else. Young Catholics today are simply not aware of the hardships their ancestors had to face. Religion-based prejudice is hardly gone, however. Islamic Americans today face equivalent misunderstanding and intolerance."
http://www.lifeintheusa.com/religion/discrimination.htm



This was a Catholic home where the Klan burned crosses on lawns, as they did on my grandmother's farm in Iowa.

Second KKK
In 1915, the second Klan was founded in Atlanta, Georgia. Starting in 1921, it adopted a modern business system of recruiting (which paid most of the initiation fee and costume charges as commissions to the organizers) and grew rapidly nationwide at a time of prosperity. Reflecting the social tensions of urban industrialization and vastly increased immigration, its membership grew most rapidly in cities, and spread out of the South to the Midwest and West. The second KKK preached "One Hundred Percent Americanism" and demanded the purification of politics, calling for strict morality and better enforcement of prohibition. Its official rhetoric focused on the threat of the Catholic Church, using anti-Catholicism and nativism.[3] Its appeal was directed exclusively at white Protestants.[21] Some local groups took part in attacks on private houses and carried out other violent activities. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

There is a long history of discriminatory hiring practices against Catholics, which is why so many Italian and Irish communities kept to themselves. When JFK ran for president, there were rampant charges of Papism, similar to what we see on DU today. He is the only Catholic in US history. Every other President has been Protestant.

There has long been a racial dimension to anti-Catholic nativisim. The Irish were not seen as white in the 19th century, nor were the Italians when they immigrated. They were defined as racially inferior, and their religion was part of that. The same holds true for Latinos today. Latinos are subject to widespread discrimination in hiring, public policy, and a host of areas. The long-association with Catholicism as being foreign, or subject to foreign papist influence endures today. Since most practicing Catholics in the US are now Latino and most masses in Spanish, racism, nativism, and anti-Catholicism remain linked. People here have had that pointed out several times, but they do not care that they are deliberately condemning the second largest Democratic voting block and instead expressing preference for Protestants, religious denominations that vote overwhelmingly Republican.

Children in some parts of the country are subject to ridicule from Protestants who tell them they aren't even Christian:
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=13

The belief that Catholics aren't really Christian is widespread, particularly among conservative Evangelicals. They have an uneasy alliance with the Catholic hierarchy but despise the ordinary Catholics they seek to have expelled from this country through border fences and "voluntary deportation."

[life long demo]

40. Thank you, I know the history well

being decendants of Irish immigrants, both famine immigrants on one side and late 19th century immigrants on the other side of the family. I have to say having lived a long time, it is within the last half of the 20th century (with Pres. Kennedy's election) and then again with John Kerry. Anyone remember the fact that someone from Rove's group went to the Pope at that time and stirred up anti-Kerry lies about Catholics who are pro choice. That was an instance of using some in the Catholic church against Catholics. I am a Catholic and I will work within the church to bring social justice to the forefront again.

[ButterflyBlood]

43. You are talking about anti immigrant, not anti-Catholic

It's not like the xenophobia are OK with Protestant Hispanics coming over.

The KKK stuff isn't happening today.

In my state the main sponsor for an Arizona-style immigration law is a white Catholic Republican. So the reason for xenophobia remains clear.

Are you saying if I remained Catholic I'd suffer discrimination that I don't today? I was also never once told growing up that Catholics aren't Christian either (not that I would've cared if I did, I hated the Church even back in my childhood. Catholic bashing would've never offended me.)

[WinkyDink]

46. Did you not read the article at all?

[ButterflyBlood]

47. Yes and most of it is not contemporary

It's history. It even cites this:

In the 21st century, anti-Catholicism is mainly the purview of a small group of bigots, who also hate everybody else. Young Catholics today are simply not aware of the hardships their ancestors had to face. Religion-based prejudice is hardly gone, however. Islamic Americans today face equivalent misunderstanding and intolerance."

Also most of that stuff described is not really motivated by Catholicism. If someone from a Catholic immigrant family converted to Protestant, would the xenophobia and bigots completely accept them all of a sudden?

[BainsBane]

138. not motivated by Catholicism?

You have no basis to argue that. In fact, you have ignored all evidence to the contrary. It was indeed motivated by anti-Catholicism, which was mixed with racism. You made clear earlier in this thread that you no background in American history. You are hardly in a position to determine what anything was motivated by. ANYONE who has taken a college-level US history survey class knows the Klan targeted Catholics. That is in the Wikipedia article. If you are intent on refusing to learn anything, don't post a question. But to deny evidence presented to you only makes you look dishonest.

WTF do you think Papism is?

Bigotry is ugly--nothing short of evil--no matter how anyone tries to justify it. That goes as much for the homophobia of protestant churches and the Catholic hierarchy as it does for the willfully ignorant anti-Catholic bigotry expressed by some on DU.

[ButterflyBlood]

141. The Klan is not contemporary

"Papism" is not only not contemporary it's not even a phrase commonly used in the 20th century, much less 19th.

Yes there are a lot of bigots and xenophobes to largely Catholic Hispanic immigrants today. However if all Catholic undocumented immigrants in the US converted to Protestant, would that satisfy the "Deport them all!" crowd and they'd quit calling for that? If the answer is no, this is clearly a different type of bigotry. Essentially if one would remain bigoted toward someone even if if they converted from Catholicism, it wouldn't be anti-Catholic but based on something else.

[BainsBane]

88. I am pointing the history and current state

of anti-Catholic discrimination to you. You don't think history is relevant, that is entirely your problem.

[ButterflyBlood]

125. Let's imagine all Catholic undocumented immigrants in the US converted to Protestant

Would that satisfy and shut up the "Deport them all!" crowd?

[BainsBane]

140. Let's imagine they all turned white

What would that do to the deport them all crowed. Your question is ridiculous.
Frankly, I'm not interested in helping you justify hatred of 1/3 of the world's population. It turns my stomach.

[ButterflyBlood]

142. Actually many Hispanics are converting to Protestantism so it's not that absurd

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/Politics/young-hispanics-leaving-catholic-church-protestant-faith/story?id=18598257

Obviously "all of them" is unrealistic, but I don't think the "Deport them all!" crowd wants to make an exception for Protestant converts and deport only Catholics.

And 1/3 of the world's population? What? That's well over 2 billion people, way higher than even the Vatican's numbers for number of Catholics.

[RedstDem]

38. tell them to come over to my place

got plenty of discrimination waiting for them ...lol

[NaturalHigh]

39. It's certainly east to point out anti-Catholic biases on the internets.

[WinkyDink]

44. Quite obviously, the "last acceptable prejudice" is about WEIGHT.

[geek tragedy]

51. After the Catholic Church whined about how birth control was religious persecution, they

cried wolf one time too many.

[ieoeja]

56. Our neighbor forbade their daughter playing with my sister in elementary school.

So anybody saying this bigotry is "ancient history" can suck on it.

Before the last couple decades, most state/church separation lawsuits were brought by Catholics because of the bigotry they suffer in the Bible Belt. Anybody who thinks anti-Cathoic bigotry is not a very real problem in the Bible Belt has never lived Catholic in the Bible Belt.

My friends didn't believe it growing up. But then, they spent all their time in Catholic communities. While I was right on the edge where the battles still took place. Only after high school did they wander further afield and learn the lessons I learned growing up.

It bares repeating that anybody saying this bigotry is "ancient history" can suck on it.

[ButterflyBlood]

58. Which Republican won most Religious Right Bible Belt voters for the GOP nomination?

Hey, Rick Santorum! Who also won evangelical voters in the GOP primary nationwide.

I grew up in a community that was about 1/3 Catholic and 2/3 Protestant and was most certainly not a "Catholic community" and never noticed any type of sectarianism or discrimination of any type between the two groups. In fact they didn't even come across as separate groups, no one segregated along those lines. There were various Christian groups and clubs at my high school, none were sectarian or Catholic or Protestant-only. Very conservative place, but the general prevailing attitude was that as long as you were Christian it was OK and the denomination didn't matter. People converted and switched denominations all the time with no controversy and mixed marriages (including my parents') were also non-controversial and essentially a non-issue. Not a friendly place if you weren't a white Christian of course, but no actual discrimination directed at Catholics.

So when did this stuff go on? Was it before the 90s?

[onenote]

65. If you define the relevant time period as not "before the 90s" then you probably won't find a lot

But you don't have to go back beyond the memories of a lot of DUers to find pretty egregious examples of discrimination against Catholics, as well as against other groups who face less discrimination than in the past.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of a group that faces more, rather than less discrimination, than they did in the 1960s and 1970s, but if I'm forgetting something presumably someone will point it out.

BTW - I'm not suggesting that there isn't a lot of very hateful discrimination today -- there is, and among some people, there seems to be a growing sense that they can express racist and discriminatory attitudes openly.

EDIT: Meant to type "can" not "can't" in the last sentence. Sorry 'bout that.

[ButterflyBlood]

70. I was born in the 80s, so I've never seen anything like this

Truthfully even if I did it wouldn't affect me, since I converted anyway. But that's why hearing about all this awful discrimination against Catholics that's supposedly so common place confused the fuck out of me. That's why I'm asking for where it exists in contemporary society.

One thing I will say is that I know that my father's side of the family (Lutheran) had no problem with him marrying a Catholic, yet my mother's side of the family had some older relatives who threw a fit about the mixed marriage. None are alive today. But just hearing about that certainly did shape my view against the idea that Protestants were far more intolerant.

[onenote]

74. In the 80s, I dated a marriage counselor

and was surprised to learn how many couples she saw who had problems arising out of family opposition to "inter-marriages" between members of various Christian denominations. Being Jewish, I got the idea that intermarriage between Christians and Jews can still be a big issue for some families. But it had never occurred to me that Lutherans and Methodists, or Baptists and Episcopalians had similar issues. But in some families, it was still happening in the 80s and I suspect it probably still happens (albeit in a diminishing number of instances) today.

[ButterflyBlood]

76. But in this case it was all from the Catholic side

Mind you a minority even on the Catholic side. No one alive today had a problem with it, and no one on the Catholic side of my family responded to my leaving the church with anything but a shrug. My father's eldest brother became an evangelical and a pastor even, and he never had any problems with the Catholic side of my family. He had four kids, of which at least three are still rather conservative evangelicals (not exactly "fundies" though) and I've never seen them have any issue with Catholics. The most conservative attitude amongst anyone I've seen on both sides is that as long as you are Christian it's fine, the denomination doesn't matter. Still a pretty conservative attitude of course, but far different from what I keep hearing about. The only bigotry I've ever heard about is from the Catholic side.

[ButterflyBlood]

81. Something else I'll point out...

My mom was my cousin (her niece)'s sponsor for Confirmation. Even though this was her sister's daughter, her sister converted and it was a Lutheran confirmation. The Lutheran church is completely OK with this.

When I was confirmed I wasn't allowed to have a non-Catholic sponsor.

Who is being more discriminatory here?

[corneliamcgillicutty]

113. One of my brothers married a wonderful

girl who is Lutheran in the 80's. They were married in a Lutheran church by a Lutheran minister with a Catholic priest on the altar who also participated in the ceremony. All of our Catholic family happily attended--young, old and in between. My brother and his wife attend both the Catholic and Lutheran services and are a wonderful, happy couple. It's about the people!!!

[hedgehog]

158. If that marriage had taken place in the 60's - before Vatican II -

the situation would have been very different. I married my husband in a Catholic Church with both priest and minister present. Within my lifetime I would have had to marry him at the rectory with only the priest and two witnesses. I would have been discouraged from wearing a wedding gown, since marriage to a Protestant was so shameful! I mention this as an example of how much the official Church hierarchy has changed, and how quickly. Those Catholic DUers who are working for change from within have reason to hope.

[ButterflyBlood]

163. ...or you could've just got married outside the church

I know for sure that's what my mom would've done if faced with those conditions.

That said though, that kind of proves my point that the bigotry worked a lot both ways. Those type of rules don't show much tolerance for Protestants. Neither did some of my mother's relatives. The only bigotry I was hearing about was coming FROM Catholics.

[SpartanDem]

87. I don't think more people are ok with expressing racism

I think just much easier to get caught there was no social media in the past. People just have much bigger soapboxes for showing off their stupidity.

[Tom Rinaldo]

68. America elected a Black President twice

Even though African Americans make up less than 15% of our population. But that doesn't prove that there is no longer any meaningful predudice against Blacks still in America. Oppression against Catholics overall has kept dropping decade by decade and I wold agree it is far less of a problem today than racism still is, but it is not completely gone. It's kind of like how many in the religous right pulled in their horns against Mormans after Romney was certain to become the Republcian canddate for President. Suddenly he served their larger purpose. The fact that the Catholic Church leadership has moved harder to the right on many social issues has blunted some overt rejection of Catholics on the right, and in my opinion most though not all bigots occupy the right side of the political spectrum.

But you do now concede that prejucice aainst Catholics did not die in the 19th century, right?

[ButterflyBlood]

71. My parents were married in 1981. My father's side of the family had no one who had any problems

And they were all Protestant, Lutheran. None of them were bothered by someone marrying a Catholic. It was a total non-issue. But I have heard of now long dead relatives on my mother's side who were furious that someone would marry outside the church. So you can see where my mentality has been shaped and that I'm not seeing the Catholics as more discriminated than discriminators.

I'm not saying it died in the 19th century, but I am saying that it died from being any significant factor before my lifetime.

[ieoeja]

73. My Catholic niece married a fundie two years ago. Her family was furious. Mine couldn't care less.

I don't doubt your story. There are bigots everywhere. Like I said, the friends I grew up in (60s/70s) never saw it. They first enountered it in the 1980s.

The 2nd to last time I heard of a HS Football prayer legal challenge, it was a Catholic family that challenged it because of the crap they put up with. That was within the last decade.

[ButterflyBlood]

75. Would fundies be OK with them marrying a liberal Lutheran like my father's side of the family?

Of course not. They'd hate them marrying anyone who isn't a fundie. They'd be furious even with a liberal evangelical like myself.

[ieoeja]

94. I believe mainstream protestants view Lutherans as Catholic-Lite. So, yes, they would not like it.

Not that I am calling fundies mainstream. Only in their view of Lutherans as being Catholic-Lite. I should probably find a better way of phrasing that.

And you hit part of the problem on the head. Roman Catholicism, like Luthernism, is way too Liberal for their likes.

Though mainly it is that whole "worshipping the anti-Christ in Rome" crapola. I am a bit surprised you have never been called a "papist" or had the preceeding accusation tossed at you. I've heard that shit scores of times. Admittedly, for some it just seems to be their way of saying a friendly "hello"....


"So you're one of them devil worshiping, papist fellers. I heard you're a pretty good guy."


Sort of like in Wisconsin where the traditional greeting of anyone from Chicago is, "Bears Suck!" Unless you a Wisconsin traffic officer in which case the greeting is, "here's your speeding ticket. Oh, and by the way, Bears Suck!"

[ButterflyBlood]

95. Who would call me a papist in middle school in the 90s?

Because that's when I quit the church. Especially if most of the kids from Pritestant families are just "Catholic-lite" (by your own description of Lutherans)? I doubt even most 90s middle schoolers have ever heard the point.

More to the initial point though, I actually go to a liberal leaning evangelical, charismatic even church that's full of LGBT supportive folks mostly under 35 that I know the fundies would never approve of. And who would they vote for in an election between me and Rick Santorum?

[Tom Rinaldo]

80. Thanks for an open civil discussion. Peace n/t

[treestar]

85. No.

I don't think that Catholics are persecuted or discriminated against.

That doesn't mean we can't argue about whether just being Catholic makes one a bigot.

I don't know why the RC church is the one expected to be in the forefront on these issues. When the RC church embraces gay rights and women's rights, we'll live in a progressive paradise.

But the church is more than just one or two issues, and we are free to argue that without at the same time claiming to be persecuted or discriminated against.

[Zorra]

89. Offhand, the only one I can think of is Mel Gibson, and I'm not sure if he's considered

a real Catholic.


Why would anyone want to persecute Catholics, unless they were ignorant conservative jerks?

That would be much like wanting to persecute LGBT folks.

[joeglow3]

91. Would you defend a picture of MLK covered in shit?

MANY people (including many here) have defended "art" of the Virgin Mary covered in shit as art. Would these same people see a representation of a whole group covered in shit as art? And this was in the 1990's.

[ButterflyBlood]

96. As I'm still a Christian, I "should" find that offensive but I don't

Just stupid and juvenile. But about as offensive as those Danish Mohammed cartoons, that is, bot at all. And still protected under free speech of course.

Also I bet those defenders were mostly liberals.

[Kolesar]

104. That is some kind of distortion of a story

"You left a lot out of the story"

[joeglow3]

107. So you WOULD support people shitting on a picture of MLK

so long as they had a good "story" behind it?

[Kolesar]

108. You got nothing, Joe

sorry

[joeglow3]

109. You are right. I asked a question and have received NOTHING.

Thanks.

[Kolesar]

110. No, I mean you are distorting the story

You probably don't know what really happened, but you are delighted to lay the bait out on the forum

[joeglow3]

111. And Piss Christ is great art that is not offensive either, right?

Like I said, you support elephant shit and piss over a symbol like MLK, so long as it tells a good story.

[ButterflyBlood]

123. Piss Christ is neither great art, nor something worth getting worked up over

It is merely juvenile and idiotic, nothing more.

[Bluenorthwest]

231. You have the facts straight from Rudy G, not from reality. The work of religious art you speak of is

not an image of Mary covered in shit at all. On a yellow-orange background, the large paintingdepicts a black woman wearing a blue robe, a traditional attribute of the Virgin Mary. The work employs mixed media, including oil paint, glitter, and polyester resin, and also elephant dung and collaged pornographic images.

The artist, Chris Ofili, uses non European modes which shock some people, this is an African Mary. Here is a link to an image of the painting for anyone who wants to see it. This poster and Rudy aside, the painting is reverent and expressive of the beauty of the subject.

[Apophis]

93. It's easier to point out discrimination the church has committed over the millenia.

[Rex]

101. No, there is none in modern times.

The Church has a huge amount of power in this country, some here would pretend otherwise.

[Kolesar]

103. Heck, six of the nine Supreme Court justices are Catholic

[font size = 3]Heck! [/font]
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/mayweb-only/29-22.0.html

[Egalitarian Thug]

105. And the answer is, no. n/t

[Arugula Latte]

115. But, but, people are saying MEAN things on the Internet!!!

[DevonRex]

106. Catholics on DU have been treated badly. Accept it.

And accept your part in it because this OP certainly did not help. It's kind of like my sisters saying they aren't racists, they just prefer to work and socialize and go to church with white people. But it doesn't mean they actually hate black people. Even though "the blacks" are the ones causing all the problems. And naturally they all agree with that. I speak up against it and get drowned out immediately.

See, you're talking about Catholics for validation of an idea you put out there. That Catholics aren't persecuted, etc. Naturally, you got other non-Catholics to chime in and agree with you. When a few Catholics speak up and mention something you have a ready-made army to shut them up and drown them out, too.

I say look no farther than your own thread for what you seek. And BTW, I'm not Catholic. I just married one.

[Arugula Latte]

118. Nobody has mentioned anything from current times, though.

[DevonRex]

124. I can tell you, since I was raised Southern fundamentalist,

and married a Catholic - southern fundamentalists still do not like it when their kids marry Catholics. Not unless the Catholic converts. My family had a hissy fit. And no, he didn't convert. One of my in-laws was raised Catholic and converted. You'd think the church was Satan by listen to him talk. As a matter of fact, I've heard sermons calling the Pope the Antichrist. We had 2 catholic families where I lived. People mentioned their religion under their breath, as if they were saying they'd been in jail or something.

So, believe it or not, prejudice still exists in the South. Even though they'll join together for antiabortion purposes. Like they'll do with Mormons - but make no mistake they don't like either one at all.

ETA: I am only speaking of southern fundamentalists here. Not southerners in general. This is not a bash against the south but that particular brand of fundamentalism that hates the Catholic church and was so apparent in the KKK. It still exists and has spread to other areas. I just know it from where I was raised.

[Arugula Latte]

132. Well, there is always prejudice against various groups (Catholics, women, gays, blacks, on and on)

Hell, I'm an atheist and we're probably the most hated group of all in this country. But the OP is asking for examples of mass discrimination and persecution, such as policies that say "no Catholics are allowed to do this" or violence against them. For example, women are told (by the Catholic Church and others) that they should not be allowed to have an abortion or even have access to contraception, and the Church works to make those rules public policy. Women have to fear violence at abortion clinics. Likewise, gays are denied equal rights in this country, in part due to the efforts of the Catholic Church and other rightwing groups. Gays are not allowed to adopt children in many places simply because they are gay. That is true discrimination. There seems to be nothing comparable with Catholics. It's not like they have to fear walking into mass and being shot at by angry atheists who don't like the dogma. Nor are they denied rights or prevented from marrying, adopting or visiting loved ones in the hospital, for example, simply because they are Catholics.

[DevonRex]

139. Does that have to happen before you have a civil tongue in your head

or a whit of kindness towards your fellow DUers and Democrats? Or would you simply prefer it to happen?

[Arugula Latte]

143. I was referring back to the question posed in the OP.

Also, I don't think criticizing church policy and the church's efforts to repress people is "attacking" Catholic DUers and Catholic Democrats.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

213. Ask the unitarians in Knoxville about being killed in church by a nut.

He wanted to get rid of the liberals. "All liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country" said Jim David Adkisson, the shooter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting

[ButterflyBlood]

135. When my parents got married, no one on my father's side of the family objected

This included his eldest brother, who wasn't even Lutheran anymore and not only converted to a far more conservative Protestant church but became a pastor. He didn't have any problem with Catholics or his family members marrying any.

On my mothers' Catholic side some older relatives who are all dead today threw fits once they heard she had been engaged to a Protestant and threatened to boycott the wedding.

And of course southern fundamentalists don't like it when their kids marry Catholics. They also wouldn't like it if their kids married Episcopalians, Congregationalists or liberal Lutherans like my father's side of the family or even liberal evangelicals like myself. They basically would object to marrying anyone other than a fellow fundamentalist. You think they'd be all fine and happy if you married someone from a liberal Protestant denomination that ordains women and gays? It's not bigotry specifically against Catholics, it's against basically everyone but themselves.

[DevonRex]

145. How nice for you. And, as a matter of fact, they blame him for me being a Democrat.

Fancy that. Yes, we both support equal civil rights for LGBTs. Abortion rights and birth control. My family? Nope. Funny, but you have some wild ideas about what Catholics themselves think and, more importantly, how they VOTE in this country. They vote for Democrats and liberal ideals. And here you are, pushing them off this site. Are you proud of yourself?

[ButterflyBlood]

148. Some Catholics in this country vote for Democrats and liberal ideals. It's about 50/50.

Per the last exit poll, Obama won Catholics over Romney 50-48, which is basically a statistical tie with the national numbers. And do you believe my mom's bigoted relatives supported liberal ideals?

But that wasn't my point at all. My point is simply that fundies don't like liberal Protestants any more than Catholics. It's not specifically anti-Catholic, just that Catholics happen to be part of a set which is "anyone who isn't like them."

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. My point is simply that fundies don't like liberal Protestants any more than Catholics

That is bigotry.

[ButterflyBlood]

222. Of course it is

But bigotry is something fundies are full of.

[No Vested Interest]

151. Posting your own family history over and over

as has been done on this OP adds nothing to the discussion.
One needs to step outside one's own experience when making generalizations as has been done repeatedly here.
One's experience does not reflect all of society. It is a not a true microcosm of society inasmuch as the variables in American society are so numerous.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

130. Amen. Some, IMHO, have to keep stirring the pot or

maybe like to see how many responses their ops can generate.

[DevonRex]

134. Yeah.

This OP certainly wasn't a conciliatory gesture, was it?

[No Vested Interest]

153. Yes, you're correct.

There was someone a day or two ago who posted at least twice on his OP how many responses and views he had at various times.
What the heck is that?

[mrmpa]

112. The Irish that came here in the 1800's..............

"No Irish need apply" signs. The KKK's hatred & persecution of Catholics. My living in the State of Indiana in 1980 in a town, where I drove 12 miles to the nearest Catholic Church. Those I worked with were amazed that I didn't spend Easter Sunday in church most of the day.

[Arugula Latte]

116. The OP is about "today" though.

[bluestate10]

127. The claim that Catholics are mass discriminated against is nonsensical.

The claim detracts the moral force of right against cases of actual discrimination.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

217. That's because no one here on this site is actually saying that.

It's a strawman by the OP.

But the absence of institutional discrimination doesn't mean that stereotyping and bigoted attitudes still don't exist.

You hear conservatives today ludicrously claim that racism doesn't exist any longer simply because Jim Crow laws are no longer on the books and the Klan has been margainalized. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[LiberalFighter]

133. The way I see it is the persecution is on the leadership for continuing the old ways

that don't apply in today's society. Unless I am mistaken many are cafeteria style Catholics. Following the directives of the Pope that they believe should be followed. Unfortunately, for them it is a top down instead of bottom up group. And under their organization it is the only way it can be when they created a Pope who is suppose to be infallible.

What I find somewhat interesting is the breakaway from the Catholic church forming the Lutheran church. Even though the Lutheran church maintains many of the same elements they don't have a Pope. And there are more than one Lutheran church.

[ButterflyBlood]

137. That's part of why my mom has all but converted to Lutheran now

Which basically means there are no Catholics left in my immediate family interestingly. My mom has also admitted that if she could do it over again she would have raised me and my brothers in the Lutheran church since her attempting at raising me Catholic caused a lot of pain and heartache between us and accomplished nothing.

[LiberalFighter]

190. I was raised Lutheran and of course there was trashing of Catholics

But it was never really anything that I maintained about them after going through Catechism. If it was then I wouldn't be praising Kennedy. I read the Bible a lot as a youth trying to make sense of it and still attended church sometimes regularly until about 10 years ago. It was after the internet becoming more fluid with resources and researching them and piecing it all together. Actually, not being able to that I understood it better. Especially when realizing the timeline in comparison to other civilizations.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

144. Well, glad you settled it.

Since there is no systematic persecution or institutional mass discrimination of Catholics in this country (to which I'll agree with you), it is perfectly fine and dandy to imply that ordinary rank and file Catholics are guilty of conspiracy in child abuse simply by virtue of being Catholic. Which has been asserted. On this website. Multiple times.

Glad you cleared that up for us. Might as well clear up the whole fact that all Muslims are supposedly complicit in terrorism. That's not persecution or discrimination either, so that's all good as well.

[ButterflyBlood]

146. It's more of a response to the claim that what we see on DU is some type of modern day Know Nothing

When in fact that type of attitude is mostly dead. Who are the anti-Catholic "bigots"? Nativists or right wing fundamentalists? No in most cases these are people who were deeply hurt by the church.

I was deeply hurt by the church. (To clarify before I say the rest of this, no I was not molested or sexually abused in any way.) In my teenage years I fucking HATED that organization. I wanted it to burn. It was the most filthy and disgusting organization on the planet to me, nothing but evil and rotten to the core. The reasons for this also shaped my liberal philosophy and modern day views. But I couldn't comprehend remaining in that organization. The thought just sickened me. I actually sometimes had dreams about committing arson to the cathedral I was confirmed in which weren't nightmares, they almost felt like some type of subconscious wish fulfillment. I wanted to renounce all even nominal affiliation with it. I refused to identify as a "lapsed Catholic" or "non-practicing Catholic". If I ever identified with some church on a nominal level, it was the Lutheran other side of my family, of which I found to be generally well intended and benign even if somewhat out of touch with me. I wouldn't even tell people in college I was raised Catholic because the thought of even a nominal identification or acknowledgement sickened me so much.

But if I hadn't been raised Catholic, none of that would've happened, and none of those feelings would've existed.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

149. But you're playing an ultimate strawman.

No one here is saying Catholics are being actively discriminated against in the modern day. However, many people are objecting to the broadbrushing that has taken place against them on this site, and that's a very real thing. And broadbrushing is not something to be encouraged, against any group.

Sorry your experience with the Catholic Church growing up was so negative. Personally, mine growing up was very positive, helped in part by the fact that my home parish's pastor had a very progressive outlook on things such as social justice. In fact, I think it's helped molded my personal identity as a liberal, believe it or not.

[ButterflyBlood]

150. It's why though I encourage people to leave. I basically got my mom to convert.

Which now means my immediate family has no Catholics in it. But this is why I have such a hard time getting the idea that liberal Catholics have something that makes them unable to convert despite the hierarchy and all its bigotry. It's certainly easy to convert as I should know having done that myself.

And as I noted, I never saw or heard of anything anti-Catholic or bigoted from my father's side of the family, not even my conservative pastor late uncle or from his mostly conservative evangelical daughters today. The anti-Protestantism I heard about from my mother's bigoted relatives is a whole other story.

[DevonRex]

165. It is none of your fucking business to "encourage people to leave" any religion.

Just like it's nobody's fucking business to try to get people to JOIN another religion.

The only thing you're doing is sticking your nose where it doesn't belong on DU. Do what you want with your family. They have to love you. Nobody here has to. Get off Catholics' backs.

And if you think getting your mama to convert to Lutheranism is just SO COOL, then you just might want to read up on Martin Luther's opinion of Jews. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html. Be sure to read the part where Luther wants the synagogues burned down and the Jews to be killed and not given safe passage and the Talmuds burned and have them driven out like mad dogs. Sound familiar? It should. Hitler used it.

I want to add one more thing about Luther and conversion. Because you have something in common. You think Catholics MUST convert or else they believe everything the Pope says. Well, listen to this:
Snip
"Like the Nazis, Luther mythologized the Jews as evil, he writes. They could be saved only if they converted to Christianity, but their hostility to the idea made it inconceivable.[53]" snip
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism#section_5

[ButterflyBlood]

170. You think the ELCA shares Luther's anti-semitism?

Yes, it's horrendous. But something from over five centuries ago should not be held as a stain on a relatively liberal denomination that has ordained women for awhile and is accepting of gays. Should the Democratic Party be shunned today because of its history with segregationists and ex-Confederates? Should the modern German state be considered evil?

And I guarantee you that Popes in Luther's time weren't too friendly to Jews either.

[DevonRex]

188. Jesuit Priests honored as The Righteous Among The Nations:

Rev. Vincent A. Lapomarda, S.J.
Roger Braun (1910-1981) -- France
Pierre Chaillet (1900-1972) -- France
Raffaele de Chantuz Cubbe (1904-1983) -- Italy
Jean-Baptiste De Coster (1896-1968) -- Belgium
Jean Fleury (1905-1982) -- France
Emile Gessler (1891-1958) -- Belgium
John B. Janssens (1889-1964) -- Belgium
Alphonse Lambrette (1884-1970) -- Belgium
Iaonnis Marangos (1901-1989) -- Greece
Emile Planckaert (1906-2006) -- France
Jacob Raile (1894-1949) -- Hungary
Henri Revol (1904-1992) -- France
Adam Sztark (1907-1942) --Poland
Henri Van Oostayen (1906 -1945) -- Belgium
http://college.holycross.edu/faculty/vlapomar/hiatt/righteus.htm

There are others as well.

And here is the Yad Vashem site http://www.yad-vashem.org.il

As far as Luther goes, seems to me he was the beginning of a split between the brown and white people on this earth. I can see that and I'm neither brown nor Catholic. First he broke with the Catholic Church, which just so happened to be full of lots and lots of duskier-skinned people than him. And then he decided Jews were no good either. I'm thinking he probably didn't have much use for gypsies, either. Thank god he never got a look at the early Celts or I'd be out, too. Might be out anyway since I'm Welsh by ancestry. A fair number of the Welsh think Lutherans and C of E are just Catholics with another name. All the pomp and ceremony, you know. Same rites.

So you might want to rethink a thing or two. Everything really IS relative when it comes to religion, you know. And nationality and heritage. And the truth and how other people see it.

[ButterflyBlood]

194. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Lutheran

I'd say that certainly proves they were not all anti-Semites or Nazi sympathizers. Of course neither him nor the mentioned ones lived in the 15th century. The Popes of the time's opinions were certainly much closer to Luther's than of Bonhoeffer or any of the priests mentioned.

The rest of your assumptions about Luther are ludicrous as he didn't even want a schism, but just sought to reform the Church at the time, and his theological views were in many ways much closer to Catholicism than modern day Protestantism. Yes he was an unquestionable bigot and what he said about Jews was disgusting and reprehensible. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the modern day ELCA. The Catholic Church's modern day bigotry is a factor. I'd much rather take a group that ordains women and accepts gays regardless of if some guy was an asshole 5 centuries ago. You might as well argue blacks should vote for the "party of Lincoln".

[Manifestor_of_Light]

215. I can tell you about Lutheran "kindness".

I went to high school with two very bright girls whose father was a Lutheran minister. Missouri Synod.

The younger girl married a boy she met after working a waitress job in a restaurant. He worked at the same restaurant. He was a Baptist.

Her father swore that he would never speak to her again. Yes, I realize this is conservative Lutheran, but it's still Lutheran.

Also, the two sisters had three younger brothers. Both sisters did all the housework and the boys sat around on their butts, so their parents were sexist as well.

The Lutherans say "holy Christian church" instead of "holy catholic church" in the Apostles' Creed, because they don't understand what the word catholic with a small "c" means. Catholic with a small "C" means "universal" or "wide-ranging".

The Methodists and Presbyterians seem to understand the meaning of small-c catholic in their Apostles' Creed.



I know about Luther's opinion of the Jews. John Calvin had Michael Servetus, the first Unitarian, barbecued at the stake in Geneva in 1553, because he was infuriated at the concept of One God and Servetus was against infant baptism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus

There is plenty of blame to go around for persecution, and the Protestants have done a lot of it themselves.

[ButterflyBlood]

223. Missouri Synod is a pretty conservative branch. My family is ELCA

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The largest Lutheran church in the country, and a far more liberal denomination. Them and Missouri Synod have next to nothing in common. ELCA even campaigned against the gay marriage ban amendment in Minnesota last year (heavily backed by the Catholic church.)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

241. So? Missouri Synod is still Lutheran. You said nothing to contradict me.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

216. Well, thank you very much, but I have no desire to leave.

Just like I have no desire to leave the Democratic Party even when I disagree with some Democrats, or I have certainly no desire to renounce my citizenship as an American despite very strongly disagreeing with some of the things my country has done (for example, what happened 10 years ago today.)

[BainsBane]

147. Which is precisely the intent

of the OP.

[marshall]

162. I've encountered some in the south

It was in 1997, if you consider that modern time. I ran a b&b and was confronted over the Catholic art (and I'm not even Catholic). The guests took all of it down and left pictures of Mother Teresa and the Pope burning in hell. I laughed it off, but it was definitely unpleasant.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

185. Have a mirror nearby?

[Dawson Leery]

192. No.

For Catholic fundamentalists, as the same goes for ALL fundamentalists, they consider "persecution" to exist when the entire world is not in line with their theocratic beliefs.

[davidthegnome]

206. Actually, it really does exist.

It's not just the bible belt where people take issue with Catholics. It happens frequently in all parts of the Country - and it is usually started, or encouraged by protestant preachers. When I was a child (during the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s), some times I would get into shouting matches with neighborhood children who told me that Catholics weren't real Christians, that we were doomed to hell because of our reverence for Mary. That we were wrong, impure, disgusting, in some way immoral because we prayed to someone feminine. This would occasionally lead to school yard bullying, and even fist fights.

Later in life I had a girlfriend who was a Mormon, who held to the opinion that Catholics were stupid and evil... well, because her church told her so. She told me she could never marry a Catholic, because we believed in dumb things, like the Holy Trinity - as opposed to really smart stuff, you know, like the holy underwear.

While I am no longer Catholic and do not follow any organized religion, if you really looked, you could find examples of "actual persecution" or, "mass discrimination", against just about any group on earth. You could also find plenty of modern examples.

I suspect though, that you aren't interested in really confronting discrimination or persecution as it pertains to Catholics. I suspect that you are simply trying to stir the pot, to encourage people like me to post, so you can point out how insignificant our experiences are. It's happening now (discrimination), with people making broad brush statements about how all Catholics are somehow enabling child molestation. Is that, somehow, not discrimination? Can we discriminate only by monstrous, direct action, or might we also do so indirectly, by simply not engaging with, hiring, or being involved with people who are (or we suspect might be) Catholic? Do we do so through bigotry that many here see as harmless? Through bigotry that many swallow as logic, as gospel, that is permitted and even condoned by intellectuals that ought to know better...

I will not defend the hierarchy of the Catholic church, it's patriarchy, it's ancient dogma, it's ignorant, conservative leaders, with their ignorant ideas - these things generally ARE despicable. However, the assault on the laity I see (and have seen) both here and in the real world is rather troubling. Some of the very finest people I have known were, and are Catholic - not the sort of people who would enable child molesters, nor practice nor encourage sexism or homophobia.

[ButterflyBlood]

207. Actually it's because I've never seen it in my life. Ever.

In fact I didn't even KNOW the Jack Chick crap about Catholics not being real Christians was out there and promoted by anyone until I was 16. At that point I had already long renounced the church so I didn't care and wasn't offended. In fact (and to my shame), I actually had a little misguided admiration for Chick for a brief period after I found out about him, my thoughts being along the lines of "Yes he's an extreme bigot and he has no knowledge of science and history and his tracts are completely inaccurate about both that and love to distort and twist the Bible...but I'll still give the guy credit for having the courage to stand up to the Catholic Church and the Pope!" But that's what happens when you're a teenager, a group that often thinks very stupid things, and someone who was deeply hurt by the Catholic Church, and saw the Chick-type fundamentalists as a much lesser deal because while they seemed crazy, they were also people I didn't have much interaction or experience with ever, while the Catholic Church was a deep plague on my life at the time. I still have a lot of demons from that era that make me say incredibly rude and insensitive things a lot on this topic, as this thread can show...

I had seen plenty of bigotry and discriminatory thoughts and comments...toward atheists and non-believers. Not surprising in my very conservative city. But I had never seen any type of discrimination or serious friction between Christians. The attitude of basically 100% of the Protestants and over 90% of the Catholics I knew growing up was that it didn't matter what denomination you belonged to, as long as you were a Christian that was all that mattered. And so yes if you wanted to convert to some other denomination go ahead, it's not a problem and no one will care. Of course if you were talking about someone converting to Wicca or Buddhism or being an atheist the attitude wasn't quite the same or as tolerant...but that's a whole other story.

[davidthegnome]

211. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent.

I grew up very much surrounded by conservative protestants, in an area where even conservative Catholics were considered liberal. So, my perspective regarding this issue is rather tainted by my own, often painful experiences. Generally speaking, I don't care for organized religion, for a wide variety of reasons... but much of it has to do with my experiences as a child and as a very young man.

What bothers me is this idea that the entirety of the Catholic laity can somehow be fairly judged by association to so called leaders that they cannot elect (unless they are Cardinals) and cannot evict.

Catholics are, generally speaking, as diverse as any other group of people. What they have in common tends to be simply the fact that they go to church and believe in a higher power - anything more would be too concrete for the vast majority of followers.

[ButterflyBlood]

224. While the latter part is true, Catholics all can leave

That's what I did after all, so I really have a tough time comprehending why someone so disgusted by the hierarchy wouldn't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

225. Hold it...since you left you can't comprehend why others don't

This alone speaks volumes...

Astounded, in ways that are hard to explain.

[No Vested Interest]

233. Ms B, I commend you for your patience in responding

to the denseness (my perception) of one who can not seem to get beyond his/her own experience.

I repeat Donald Rumsfeld's quote, though I loathe the man, but so suitable in this instance: "We know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns. The ones we don't know we don't know."

[ButterflyBlood]

236. This might clarify it a bit more

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2530972

[nadinbrzezinski]

239. Not at all

Since the hierarchy did terrible things (and they have) you left the Church. That is your choice. It is the right choice for you. Many in the laity are just as critical...you are hating, yes having bigoted attitudes, against members of the laity. These are the same exact members who are critical, with cause, of the same hierarchy you are angry at.

In other words, it is not for you to demand they leave, that is not the appropriate choice for them. Nor is is less bigoted to lump them with the same hierarchy.

I hope you grow up and find your peace, truly, and realize that the old lady putting some money at the collection plate, or more likely these days finding a charity independent of the Church, but still attending mass...is not your enemy.

That is also your choice.

[NoGOPZone]

234. I'll ask my neighbor, who is somehow convinced

that mass immigration from the Americas as opposed to Europe is intended to undermine Catholics.

[LAGC]

237. That's funny, because Latino immigration is the only thing keeping the Catholic Church numbers up.

At least here in America.